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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:00:00 -
[1]
DPS = same (I think more or less since wolf has double dmg bonus)
range = Wolf wins easy
speed = Wolf wins easy
tank = same more or less (?)
cap use = wolf wins (shrugs nossing off easyier)
So I would invite math pros to correct me but if my premise is right... can this be allowed in a patch thats supposed to promote balance???
Jaguar fix: check
Hawk fix: check
Vengeance fix: check
Ishkur fix: No its fine
Harpy, Enyo, Retribution no need for fix. Wolf needed this????
Meh, I say mattari forum campaigners abducted Tux and replaced him with an alien...
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/06/2006 20:02:39
/me thinks slaves need more flogging.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
 Quote:
Tier 3 Minmatar BS needs Target Painting for bonuses.
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Imode
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:03:00 -
[3]
It depends which AF you consider the top tier for Gallente.
Most consider the Enyo because it's bristling with weapon hi-slots, but the Ishkur is widely considered to be superior to the Enyo.
I have no idea how it will come out, but try comparing the Wolf to an Ishkur.
____________________________
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:03:00 -
[4]
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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Benglada
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:06:00 -
[5]
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
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Originally by: Wrangler
Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote.. 
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:13:00 -
[6]
All replies so far valid in their own right but as to the heart of the matter they are rather tralala.
Come on Sarmaul give me a post explain the inexplicable pls  (or better yet Tux)
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:17:45
Originally by: Benglada
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
he means 5% for frigate and 5% for assault frigate (will be in with the next patch).
edit: gimmie a sec, I'm working on it :)
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:17:45
Originally by: Benglada
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
he means 5% for frigate and 5% for assault frigate (will be in with the next patch).
edit: gimmie a sec, I'm working on it :)
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:26:00 -
[9]
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Foulis
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
I just noticed this reply
Like huge comared to the 0% EM resist that Caldari frigs get or the 10% expl resist that gallente frigs have?????
Comic relief
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:30:22
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Foulis
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
I just noticed this reply
Like huge comared to the 0% EM resist that Caldari frigs get or the 10% expl resist that gallente frigs have?????
Comic relief
No, like it's an armour tanker and has 2 resists under 60%, something that no other assault frig has to deal with. Caldari assault frigs only need to patch one resistance (EM) - the other 3 are >= 60%. Amarr only need to patch thermal and gallente only need explosive. The wolf needs both kinetic and explosive.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crellion
DPS = same (I think more or less since wolf has double dmg bonus)
range = Wolf wins easy
speed = Wolf wins easy
tank = same more or less (?)
cap use = wolf wins (shrugs nossing off easyier)
So I would invite math pros to correct me but if my premise is right... can this be allowed in a patch thats supposed to promote balance???
DPS = i'll let sarmaul do the numbers he is better with that 
range = agree ac wolf wins with barrage, the enyo isnt entirely designed as blasterboat tough, you could even say it leans more to rails but thats imo
speed = wolf wins (as it should be , i mean its minmatars mqain feature)
tank = enyo has way better tank, only needs to fill 1 gap instead of minnie with 2 gaps
cap use = enyo has 25% more base cap than wolf with same recharge rate, i think that balances things fine
i see no balance problem here
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Crellion
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
Yes, but seeing as the majority of wolves have a plate fitted it lowers their MWD speed and gives them poorer agility.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
Yes, but seeing as the majority of wolves have a plate fitted it lowers their MWD speed and gives them poorer agility.
Still faster than an Enyo on Red bull...
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Caldaris "patch" it to 50% ? Oh come on.... be fair...
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:39:00 -
[17]
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Caldaris "patch" it to 50% ? Oh come on.... be fair...
I'm on about the holes that need to be patched, not their final resistances. Almost none of the assault frigates have the cap to run active hardeners so they need to use passive ones. Caldari end up with:
Amarr: 60%, 80%, 62%, 65% (armour, energized thermic II)
Caldari: 47%, 60%, 70%, 80% (shield, magnetic scattering II)
Gallente: 60%, 52%, 84%, 67% (armor, energized reactive II)
Minmatar: 92.5%, 52.19%, 60%, 67.5% (armor, energized magnetic II AND energized reactive II)
2 hardeners needed to get 3+ resists >= 60%, something none of the other assault frigs need to do. Amarr assaults get every resistance >= 60% with just one hardener.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Crellion
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
a few things:
Munnin is artillery platform compared to the wolf which has now offically become an AC platform with falloffbonus and no optimal nous
nearly every minnie dmg ship gets 2 dmg boni because the natural dps of ac and arties is very low (its a racial balance thing, like the -10% cap use for amarr)
according to Sarmaul's spreadsheet the enyo outdamages the wolf all time as long it can stay close enough
wolf's strength lies in better speed and more dmg from further away (natural minnie combat style)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
For gallente frigs, yes. (You can do it on a ranis too).
Make Khanid Useful! |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 20:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 20:46:10
Originally by: Crellion
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
a few things:
Munnin is artillery platform compared to the wolf which has now offically become an AC platform with falloffbonus and no optimal nous
nearly every minnie dmg ship gets 2 dmg boni because the natural dps of ac and arties is very low (its a racial balance thing, like the -10% cap use for amarr)
according to Sarmaul's spreadsheet the enyo outdamages the wolf all time as long it can stay close enough
wolf's strength lies in better speed and more dmg from further away (natural minnie combat style)
added: oh and plz show me the interceptor that can tank 5 light drones from an Ishkur with good drone skills oO
I am **** at making linkies so imagine this is orange: Crow linky
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 21:07:00 -
[23]
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.06.18 21:08:00 -
[24]
The biggest difference is 0 cap for weapons or 0.000001. The second one is nosf vulnerable, the first is not.
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Dead already? |
ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.06.18 21:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
For gallente frigs, yes. (You can do it on a ranis too).
Shhh...
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 21:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: LUKEC
The biggest difference is 0 cap for weapons or 0.000001. The second one is nosf vulnerable, the first is not.
armour rep still takes cap as do webber/warp jammer
if i cant rep i'll die quite fast, its nice to keep shooting in those last seconds of my life but in most cases it wont make a difference
its an advantage ofc if i only get nossed and not shot
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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murder one
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Posted - 2006.06.18 22:31:00 -
[27]
You ppl seem to be ignoring that the Wolf can choose a damage type that completely bypasses any AF resists the Enyo may have. Furthermore a blaster Enyo can't dictate the combat range, so regardless of what resist holes the Wolf has, the Enyo is at a huge disadvantage in every respect, when used with blasters, and in a solo situation, meaning it has to fit an AB and scram, and has to leave a web at home.
Blaster ships w/o speed and a web to control the engagement range are just useless. Additionally, they're far more cap sensitive than any other type of ship.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 22:35:00 -
[28]
Not as simple as that.
Usual NOS set up has less DPS but relies on:
1) After a point you will not shoot it at all or shoot it now and then when your single small nos or something kicks in.
2) It will be able to tank on your expense for the beginning of the fight and then as your tanking fails he will start tanking himself with his onw cap whilest you dont tank period. Also at this moment you shoot little or not at all = his DPS is suddendly bigger than yours. (example: Nosfishkur).
Now a Wolf can go in with high damage, use his tanking until all cap is gone (not having to reserve cap for weapons means he is not likely to switch of the rep in hopes of maintaining fire like an Enyo or Vengeance will have to).
Once cap is gone he is still doing more DPS than the Nosf ship with no delay.
Having said that, despite Wolf's Blood uberness I d rather use a Hawk against a Nosf set up Ishkur. Rocket his drones to oblivion, shieldboost my own cap dry asap, fall back on the medium extender (and my still utouched 2k+ hardened shield hps), use my small nos to maintain the scram, laugh hysterically while his single SARII tries to keep up with the DPS from 4 phalnx or grmlin rockets... Sounds like a plan
Poor Gallente AFs ... Blood just dont become them 
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.06.18 22:39:00 -
[29]
the Enyo can dictate range if it uses a web and scram setup. Sure it will take longer to lumber into range but the vast majority of AC wolfs use an MWD and a 2 Point scram
The again, same logic applies to the wolf, it can do the web and scram and still dictate the range that way. I simply see no way for an Enyo to win against a Wolf in an equal situation, the wolf pilot would have to make a big mistake
-----
Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a Gallente whiner. |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 22:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Crellion
Not as simple as that.
Usual NOS set up has less DPS but relies on:
1) After a point you will not shoot it at all or shoot it now and then when your single small nos or something kicks in.
2) It will be able to tank on your expense for the beginning of the fight and then as your tanking fails he will start tanking himself with his onw cap whilest you dont tank period. Also at this moment you shoot little or not at all = his DPS is suddendly bigger than yours. (example: Nosfishkur).
Now a Wolf can go in with high damage, use his tanking until all cap is gone (not having to reserve cap for weapons means he is not likely to switch of the rep in hopes of maintaining fire like an Enyo or Vengeance will have to).
Once cap is gone he is still doing more DPS than the Nosf ship with no delay.
Having said that, despite Wolf's Blood uberness I d rather use a Hawk against a Nosf set up Ishkur. Rocket his drones to oblivion, shieldboost my own cap dry asap, fall back on the medium extender (and my still utouched 2k+ hardened shield hps), use my small nos to maintain the scram, laugh hysterically while his single SARII tries to keep up with the DPS from 4 phalnx or grmlin rockets... Sounds like a plan
Poor Gallente AFs ... Blood just dont become them
in that instance yes you are right, but why would i fight with a wolf in small nos range in the first place?
the only nos i am concerned are medium/large. in pvp with the new wolf i will try to stay out of small nos range, especially if i think someone has several small nos fitted. (Ishkur)
also i dont get why ppl complain that minnie have the speed to dictate the range, i mean thats our main playstyle Oo
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:03:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Crellion
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Ergo Morte
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:12:00 -
[32]
The Wolf VS Enyo on paper looks like it comes down to skill but in game that's not the case. The Wolf can always refuse combat from the Enyo And since neither has the mids for a good tackling setup it's usually a scram and a speed mod, so unless the enyo is setup for specifically for tackling and willing to wait to be engaged by the Wolf then webs are a non-factor in any 1 VS 1. Without a web it's Wolf > Enyo because the Wolf will always be able to set range and enjoy a better practical DPS ( as oppossed to theoretical DPS ).
It all come down to the fact that the Gallente AFs are so much slower than their base counerpart. 60 m/s for the Enyo. With a faster Enyo then it's down to skill with typical setups.
I started a thread about just that problem. theres no spreadsheets but the evidence is kinda obvious. Linkage
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:14:00 -
[33]
besides, it's not the new wolf you need to worry about, it's the new jag :)
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:19:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sarmaul
besides, it's not the new wolf you need to worry about, it's the new jag :)
shhhhh
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Darling Hassasin
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.
What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Darling Hassasin
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.
What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?
Sorry for the alty post.
But dont you "fire up quickfit" and "before you make statements" me you little bugger
Enyo 145 cpu Light Ion blaster II 18 cpu
Wolf 125 cpu 200 a/c II 9 cpu
Now not another WORD from you please or I ll get rly upset. Your spreadsheet is wrong in practice and thats that. Do 1 with 200s and Ions and we can take this more seriously.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:30:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 23:31:39
Originally by: Darling Hassasin
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.
What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?
Please don't get into a maths war with me as I'm far nerdier than you :).
200mm II CPU: 9
Ion II CPU: 13 (taken from in-game - item db is wrong atm)
Difference: 13 - 9 = 4
Difference for 4 guns: 4 * 4 = 16
Enyo CPU: 145 * 1.25 = 181.25
Wolf CPU: 125 * 1.25 = 156.25
Difference: 181.25 - 156.25 = 25
Ship Difference - Gun Differnce = 25 - 16 = 9
So there you have it. An Enyo with Ion IIs has 9 more CPU to play with than a Wolf with 200mm IIs.
Any other matters you wish to be owned on?
edit: Those figures are with the extra 25% damage bonus. I'm going to stop arguing with you now as you're proving to be a total moron troll
Make Khanid Useful! |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:31:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/06/2006 23:32:26
Originally by: Crellion
Now not another WORD from you please or I ll get rly upset. Your spreadsheet is wrong in practice and thats that. Do 1 with 200s and Ions and we can take this more seriously.
I suggest you download the free spreadsheet, and the free OpenOffice to use it. Then freely host the graph somewhere, with some free constructive criticism on top.
There are so many parameters it's obvious at times making a graph or a setup will make you chose values over others; assuming that a choice is always biased to suit one's own point instead of the opposition is a very irritating way of debating. And i'm being polite.
Thank you.
NB.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Darling Hassasin
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
No, it's because the Wolf has ****ty CPU and had a hard time fitting 200mms plus all the timmings (in fact it's impossible without a co-pro). Same reason why I used Ions on the Enyo instead of Neutrons. I suggest you fire up quickfit and see for yourself before making statements like that.
What do I need quickfit for? 200IIs are not easyier to fit than IonII? About that "with all the trimmings" business... it depends on what you want exactly I guess?
Please don't get into a maths war with me as I'm far nerdier than you :).
200mm II CPU: 9
Ion II CPU: 13 (taken from in-game - item db is wrong atm)
Difference: 13 - 9 = 4
Difference for 4 guns: 4 * 4 = 16
Enyo CPU: 145 * 1.25 = 181.25
Wolf CPU: 125 * 1.25 = 156.25
Difference: 181.25 - 156.25 = 25
Ship Difference - Gun Differnce = 25 - 16 = 9
So there you have it. An Enyo with Ion IIs has 9 more CPU to play with than a Wolf with 200mm IIs.
Any other matters you wish to be owned on?
Thats unfair I have to go home to check ingame...
I guess atm owned (still of course 9 cpu is too small a difference for anybody to prefer 150s and I still believe the comarable to Ion set up is the 200 set up but thats just me. In maths you win.)
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Rexy
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:34:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Rexy on 18/06/2006 23:35:21
- with hail a wolf loses it's speed advantage
- the wolf has low cpu so it cant tank like a madman with 2x hardners
enyo on the other hand can happily use high damage ammo without losing speed, where the wolf has to use either barrage, wich does half kinetic , or normal t1 damage, also the enyo only really needs one hardner, wich makes the the fact that the guns use more cpu less relevant.
so do a recompare with that, really
edit: i never bothered with 200mm's really, cant fit anything remotely decent with them as you will simply run out of cpu on most minny frigs
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/06/2006 23:32:26
Originally by: Crellion
Now not another WORD from you please or I ll get rly upset. Your spreadsheet is wrong in practice and thats that. Do 1 with 200s and Ions and we can take this more seriously.
I suggest you download the free spreadsheet, and the free OpenOffice to use it. Then freely host the graph somewhere, with some free constructive criticism on top.
There are so many parameters it's obvious at times making a graph or a setup will make you chose values over others; assuming that a choice is always biased to suit one's own point instead of the opposition is a very irritating way of debating. And i'm being polite.
Thank you.
NB.
You are just upset about the naughty boy quote
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Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Crellion
still of course 9 cpu is too small a difference for anybody to prefer 150s
When you're fitting frigates, every point of powergrid and CPU counts. 3-4% more DPS isn't worth the extra CPU when it ruins your setup.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Crellion
Thats unfair I have to go home to check ingame...
I guess atm owned (still of course 9 cpu is too small a difference for anybody to prefer 150s and I still believe the comarable to Ion set up is the 200 set up but thats just me. In maths you win.)
i fired up quickfit and compared it with aswell, sarmaul did it already with 200 mm, i did it aswell with 150's
enyo with 4x light ion blaster II has 137.9 cpu left
wolf woth 4x 150mm II has 138,25 cpu left
as you can see they are nearly even and way more compareable than with 200's II
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Woopie
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:42:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Woopie on 18/06/2006 23:43:24
Light Ion Blaster II - 17 CPU
Unless they changed Light Ion Blaster II as well with the up coming blaster changes...?
Weapon cpu diff: 17*.75*4-9*.75*4=24 (higher for enyo)
Ship cpu diff: (145-125)*1.25=25 (higher for enyo)
That's 1 win cpu for enyo, clear advanage
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:42:00 -
[45]
Tired of quoting peeps.
@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?
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Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:43:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Originally by: Crellion
Thats unfair I have to go home to check ingame...
I guess atm owned (still of course 9 cpu is too small a difference for anybody to prefer 150s and I still believe the comarable to Ion set up is the 200 set up but thats just me. In maths you win.)
i fired up quickfit and compared it with aswell, sarmaul did it already with 200 mm, i did it aswell with 150's
enyo with 4x light ion blaster II has 137.9 cpu left
wolf woth 4x 150mm II has 138,25 cpu left
as you can see they are nearly even and way more compareable than with 200's II
Care to do the same with grid pls? I ll be eagerly anticipating the reult.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Crellion
You are just upset about the naughty boy quote
I'm not upset by that, rather by the immaturity of some posts and posters. You don't have anything solid to back up many claims yet discard anything solid on the basis that you don't feel that way, I don't think it's very constructive.
NB.
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Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:43:00 -
[48]
quickfit is wrong btw. it lists light ion blaster IIs as using 14.45cpu (it does in my version anyway).
Make Khanid Useful! |
Woopie
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sarmaul
quickfit is wrong btw. it lists light ion blaster IIs as using 14.45cpu (it does in my version anyway).
Only if you have weapon upgrades at lvl 3, 17*.85=14.45
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Crellion
You are just upset about the naughty boy quote
I'm not upset by that, rather by the immaturity of some posts and posters. You don't have anything solid to back up many claims yet discard anything solid on the basis that you don't feel that way, I don't think it's very constructive.
NB.
Quoting Items Database cause I dont have access in game atm is not the same as "I dont feel that way". (Nor could I expect that there is a discrepancy between the two). Also pls tell me which many claims. (things that I posted with a questionmark and invited people to check because atm I couldnt as per the OP?)
You are out of line IMO and I am just being nice
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:46:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sarmaul
quickfit is wrong btw. it lists light ion blaster IIs as using 14.45cpu (it does in my version anyway).
hmm yeah you are right :/
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Woopie
Light Ion Blaster II - 17 CPU
Unless they changed Light Ion Blaster II as well with the up coming blaster changes...?
Weapon cpu diff: 17*.75*4-9*.75*9=24 (higher for enyo)
Ship cpu diff: (145-125)*1.25=25 (higher for enyo)
That's 1 win cpu for enyo, clear advanage
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Sarmaul
quickfit is wrong btw. it lists light ion blaster IIs as using 14.45cpu (it does in my version anyway).
Only if you have weapon upgrades at lvl 3, 17*.85=14.45
no it lists them at 14,45 without weapon upgrades ( i got wp upgr 5 btw ;P )
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Sarmaul
quickfit is wrong btw. it lists light ion blaster IIs as using 14.45cpu (it does in my version anyway).
Only if you have weapon upgrades at lvl 3, 17*.85=14.45
yes, but it's showing it as that unfitted.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:50:00 -
[55]
Still waiting for one of the "quickfit" experts to do a grid comparison...
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Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:51:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 23:51:39
i checked ingame now, and yes ion II's use only 13 cpu, so enyo has still more cpu, even if you only use 150's II on wolf
i think with this we can bury your point of comparing 200's with ions
edited spelling
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Rexy
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Posted - 2006.06.18 23:53:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Crellion
Tired of quoting peeps.
@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?
cap nerf check
tracking nerf check
hail has that too , and more, unnerf hail  !!
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Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 23:51:39
i checked ingame now, and yes ion II's use only 13 cpu, so enyo has still more cpu, even if you only use 150's II on wolf
i think with this we can bury your point of comparing 200's with ions
edited spelling
We can unless if quickfit shows that while you have 9 more cpu on Enyo you lose 10 grid or something... I am still waiting
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Darling Hassasin
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Rexy
Originally by: Crellion
Tired of quoting peeps.
@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?
cap nerf check
tracking nerf check
hail has that too , and more, unnerf hail !!
Cap nerf is never equal on a ship that fres with out cap. Anyway thanks for replying. Did you by any chance compare the EMP dmg types with Enyo resists as I urged you?
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Rexy
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:00:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Rexy on 19/06/2006 00:01:04
Originally by: Darling Hassasin
Originally by: Rexy
Originally by: Crellion
Tired of quoting peeps.
@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?
cap nerf check
tracking nerf check
hail has that too , and more, unnerf hail !!
Cap nerf is never equal on a ship that fres with out cap. Anyway thanks for replying. Did you by any chance compare the EMP dmg types with Enyo resists as I urged you?
why on earth would i want to use emp, 60% em resist and 83% kinetic, remaining 40% fusion is nice though. but it judging by the damage graphs above miles behind an enyo using t2 ammo without speed nerfs
about the cap thing, shutdown your guns and you can tank again, if a wolf turns of it guns it still wont get much cap quickly, dunno what's worse tbh
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:00:00 -
[61]
Ok Items Database again shows:
Enyo 50 grid IonsII 4x8=32
Wolf 48 grid 200II 4x4=16
On this it looks as if this might be as important as the cpu difference in favour of the Enyo but is the IDB correct, what effect skills have?
Come on guys you did cpu in a few secs... what's holding up the grid results?
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:01:00 -
[62]
Wolf PG with 200mm II x 4: 45.6
Wolf PG with 150mm II x 4: 52.8
Enyo PG with Ion II x 4: 33.7
And that proves what exactly? That the Enyo has more CPU spare for hardening modules, while the Wolf has more PG spare for plates? Gosh, it's almost as if that's what I've been saying for the entire thread. As for the Wolf being able to keep the range - it's almost as if speed was some kind of Minmatar racial trait that allows them to control the range of engagement. What's this? Blasters with a short range bit high damage? Oh my, looks like we may just have discovered a Gallente racial trait.
Like the Enyo vs Wolf, Deimos vs Vagabond and Megathron vs Tempest, if the Gallente ship gets into range the Minmatar ship will die painfully and quickly. If the Minmatar pilot has his wits about him he will keep the range and use his large falloff to control (and generally) the engagement. End of story, so stop your *****ing.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Woopie
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:04:00 -
[63]
(8-4)*.9*4=14.4 (more grid use for enyo)
(50-48)*1.25=2.5 (more grid for enyo)
So enyo loses with 11.9 grid and wins 9 cpu...
But imo both ships are kinda big lose to use with only 2 meds so who cares..
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Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:05:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Rexy
Edited by: Rexy on 19/06/2006 00:01:04
Originally by: Darling Hassasin
Originally by: Rexy
Originally by: Crellion
Tired of quoting peeps.
@ Sarmaul: I said IMO
@ Rexy: tech I ammo is EMP, compare that to Enyo's resists if you like. Also you forgot the Void penalties for Enyo?
cap nerf check
tracking nerf check
hail has that too , and more, unnerf hail !!
Cap nerf is never equal on a ship that fres with out cap. Anyway thanks for replying. Did you by any chance compare the EMP dmg types with Enyo resists as I urged you?
why on earth would i want to use emp, 60% em resist and 83% kinetic, remaining 40% fusion is nice though. but it judging by the damage graphs above miles behind an enyo using t2 ammo without speed nerfs
about the cap thing, shutdown your guns and you can tank again, if a wolf turns of it guns it still wont get much cap quickly, dunno what's worse tbh
On a standard 1 expl 55% hardener tank emp and fusion do the same dmg more or less on armour. However emp will allow you to clean the shields of the enyo much quicker (0% - 60% is the difference)... I think it buys you some time... Still you are right in the case of a eanII or EM and Expl hardener Enyo but neither is as common as the 1x Expl hardener Enyo I believe.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:06:00 -
[65]
also how enables more grid to do more dmg if i am constrained by cpu for the higher weapon tier
dmg mods are cpu heavy aswell last time i checked >_>
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:14:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf PG with 200mm II x 4: 45.6
Wolf PG with 150mm II x 4: 52.8
Enyo PG with Ion II x 4: 33.7
And that proves what exactly? That the Enyo has more CPU spare for hardening modules, while the Wolf has more PG spare for plates? Gosh, it's almost as if that's what I've been saying for the entire thread. As for the Wolf being able to keep the range - it's almost as if speed was some kind of Minmatar racial trait that allows them to control the range of engagement. What's this? Blasters with a short range bit high damage? Oh my, looks like we may just have discovered a Gallente racial trait.
Like the Enyo vs Wolf, Deimos vs Vagabond and Megathron vs Tempest, if the Gallente ship gets into range the Minmatar ship will die painfully and quickly. If the Minmatar pilot has his wits about him he will keep the range and use his large falloff to control (and generally) the engagement. End of story, so stop your *****ing.
Sorry to have upset you but the point is this:
(1) Enyo with Ions has 9 more cpu and 11 less grid than Wolf as you say.
(2) This means that as they are both armour tankers and dont use EW and the like AT LEAST the two set ups are comarable.
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
(4) Add to that that there is no reason to use a hobg that does the same dmg type as your guns and will rather use a warrior that is fast enough to catch intys (if you are using blasters) and does a different damage type (expl arguably best ingame).This further diminishes the difference in DPS.
(5) After that having a dual dmg bonus on the Wolf and a single one on the Enyo appears to be a grave error.
(6) As you stated minnies select range and gallente do the uber damage.
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.
That was the point of the OP and I couldnt mathematically prove it without your help.
Thank You.
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:16:00 -
[67]
Now can I have the 200II v Ion II spreadsheet comparison please or is it unecessary at this stage?
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Rexy
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:18:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Crellion
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.
with hail, wich it needs to get to the dps you quoted, it gets practically no useable cap reacharge, wich means dicating range with a few bursts of mwd seems fairly impossible.
the margin showed before seemed pretty big to me, and that was with hail, wich atm at the best of times has a limited use
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Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Rexy
Originally by: Crellion
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.
with hail, wich it needs to get to the dps you quoted, it gets practically no useable cap reacharge, wich means dicating range with a few bursts of mwd seems fairly impossible.
the margin showed before seemed pretty big to me, and that was with hail, wich atm at the best of times has a limited use
Sorry but I am not referring to hail but to emp v antimatter (as neither ship can afford web for 1v1 as Sarmaul showed in suggested set ups.
Also sorry but the margin I refer to is not on the graph you can see here but on the one that isnt posted yet. 200IIs v Ion IIs. If they post it you will see what I mean
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:22:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Crellion
Sorry to have upset you but the point is this:
(1) Enyo with Ions has 9 more cpu and 11 less grid than Wolf as you say.
(2) This means that as they are both armour tankers and dont use EW and the like AT LEAST the two set ups are comarable.
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
(4) Add to that that there is no reason to use a hobg that does the same dmg type as your guns and will rather use a warrior that is fast enough to catch intys (if you are using blasters) and does a different damage type (expl arguably best ingame).This further diminishes the difference in DPS.
(5) After that having a dual dmg bonus on the Wolf and a single one on the Enyo appears to be a grave error.
(6) As you stated minnies select range and gallente do the uber damage.
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.
That was the point of the OP and I couldnt mathematically prove it without your help.
Thank You.
1) I do
2) Agreed
3) 200mm IIs do 3%-4% more DPS than 150mm IIs, as I stated earlier in the thread.
4) Erm, what? If you change to an explosive drone you are targeting the Wolf's weakest resistance, which is a bonus for the Enyo.
5) Then try looking at Minmatar ship bonuses - the pure combat ones have a double damage bonus (Rupture, Wolf, Vagabond, Muninn, Sleipnir). It's usually 25% ROF and 25% damage, but CCP doesn't like rate of fire bonuses on frigates. You should be glad they don't, as a 25% rof bonus is equivilant to a 33% damage bonus.
6) Yes. You seem to be stating the obvious
7) Blood was 4 months ago. Wolf has always dictated range. Small autocannons have always used 0 cap. It does explosive damage - that's because it's MINMATAR AND WE DO EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE. You can do it with your drone if you like.
8) And if the Wolf was worse than the Enyo in every department would that be fair? Like I said, if the Enyo gets close it wins. If the Wolf keeps it at range it wins. It seems that you want the Enyo to dominate every close-range encounter vs everything. And as I've said before, you really need to worry about the new Jag than the new Wolf.
And you're still an idiot.
Bugger off.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Crellion
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
your entire post already fails at this point, you choose to ignore what doesnt suit you
check my post above yours if you still dont get it
i could have 1 million grid and surprisingly couldnt fit xl guns which should do awesome dmg, whats that you say? cpu constraints balance?
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
Sorry to have upset you but the point is this:
(1) Enyo with Ions has 9 more cpu and 11 less grid than Wolf as you say.
(2) This means that as they are both armour tankers and dont use EW and the like AT LEAST the two set ups are comarable.
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
(4) Add to that that there is no reason to use a hobg that does the same dmg type as your guns and will rather use a warrior that is fast enough to catch intys (if you are using blasters) and does a different damage type (expl arguably best ingame).This further diminishes the difference in DPS.
(5) After that having a dual dmg bonus on the Wolf and a single one on the Enyo appears to be a grave error.
(6) As you stated minnies select range and gallente do the uber damage.
(7) After Blood a Wolf will dictate range AND use no cap (can run mwd more and gets much bigger speed advantage from either that or ab and doesnt stop shooting if nosed) AND have better damage types AND
(8) Finally have a margin of less DPS so small that it is a much better ship overall than an Enyo. Whats more, so much better that the ships are imbalanced.
That was the point of the OP and I couldnt mathematically prove it without your help.
Thank You.
1) I do
2) Agreed
3) 200mm IIs do 3%-4% more DPS than 150mm IIs, as I stated earlier in the thread.
4) Erm, what? If you change to an explosive drone you are targeting the Wolf's weakest resistance, which is a bonus for the Enyo.
5) Then try looking at Minmatar ship bonuses - the pure combat ones have a double damage bonus (Rupture, Wolf, Vagabond, Muninn, Sleipnir). It's usually 25% ROF and 25% damage, but CCP doesn't like rate of fire bonuses on frigates. You should be glad they don't, as a 25% rof bonus is equivilant to a 33% damage bonus.
6) Yes. You seem to be stating the obvious
7) Blood was 4 months ago. Wolf has always dictated range. Small autocannons have always used 0 cap. It does explosive damage - that's because it's MINMATAR AND WE DO EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE. You can do it with your drone if you like.
8) And if the Wolf was worse than the Enyo in every department would that be fair? Like I said, if the Enyo gets close it wins. If the Wolf keeps it at range it wins. It seems that you want the Enyo to dominate every close-range encounter vs everything. And as I've said before, you really need to worry about the new Jag than the new Wolf.
And you're still an idiot.
Bugger off.
So we are off the graphs and on with spreading lies now are we?
As for the drone issue (lol) I am not discussing specific set ups but generic set up "if they come on against the other".
As for what you say didnt come with Blood yes of course ... but I am comparing all aspects of the ships not only the ones you like to compare.
I am happy you came down to swearing cause it shows when one is wrong and out of arguments (and unwilling to post the 1 relevant graph).
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:28:00 -
[73]
You're the one trying to prove a point, so make the bloody graph yourself.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:30:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 19/06/2006 00:25:18
Originally by: Crellion
(3) If you now do a spreadsheet with 200II dmg v IonII dmg, I believe, that the difference in DPS will be much smaller than the one in the graph yu posted.
your entire post already fails at this point, you choose to ignore what doesnt suit you
check my post above yours if you still dont get it
i could have 1 million grid and surprisingly couldnt fit xl guns which should do awesome dmg, whats that you say? cpu constraints balance?
edit: meh sarmaul said everything better than i could, nerf sarmaul tbfh 
LOL The only curves on the graph were not the hail and the void curves m8.
As for your delirium tremens about XL guns save it for your m8s at school. I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.
Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:32:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Crellion on 19/06/2006 00:34:51
Originally by: Sarmaul
You're the one trying to prove a point, so make the bloody graph yourself.
Thats enough for me to consider it proven tbh.
Edit: anyway I am off to bed... If I dont reply to further posts ... its not cause I am sleeping but cause I was pooned and finally see the mattari light. Night night o/
|
Wizie
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:36:00 -
[76]
Ok, so Crellion has "proved" that the Wolf with autocannons can defeat an enyo with blasters.
Good job.
I believe its intentional and balanced.
Move along.
-----------------
Sig removed by some noob |
Naughty Boy
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:37:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 19/06/2006 00:42:41
Originally by: Crellion
I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.
Here's how it works.
First, you decide about some parameters. Like I did:
Graph 1
Then, you realize that you might have to check the parameters to prevent accusation of biases:
Graph 2
Thirdly, you chose another "random" value ("randomizing" is an oxymoron):
Graph 3
Here, I believe I proved your point, and mine, at the same time.
Conclusion: what's an unbiased fight time ? Be sure to include it in your graph (this is the point of the exercice i believe).
Originally by: Crellion
Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.
A ship with such crappy cpu, such armor resistance holes, and two mids won't ever be uber
NB.
|
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.19 00:52:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Crellion
LOL The only curves on the graph were not the hail and the void curves m8.
As for your delirium tremens about XL guns save it for your m8s at school. I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.
Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.
i wasnt even talkin about the ammo and curves oO
you are trying to compare 200's with ions with is just plain wrong, and sarmaul proved that, as you were arguing that ac's use so much less cpu that it is compearable
you are trying to save that argument of yours by saying now , oke the wolf got more grid so i can now use 200's to compare with ions
i was bringing up the 1 million grid and xl guns to show that it doesnt work that way
you are saying the wolf is so uber, but the only ones who brought the numbers etc were us minnies, you just ignore everything that doesnt suit you
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:55:00 -
[79]
Thank You naughty.
As to what I was trying to prove Wizie its much more complicated than I can show you on the forums. I will have to go on things "I feel" like Naughty says and I ll get flamed for it...
So b it:
I feel that there is a very thin balance between autocannon ships and blaster ships. It is epitomised in HACs and in frigs as well as the Autopest v the Blasterthron.
The point is this:
An uber blaster pilot can trick the mattari pilot (or use his mwd when he has a bonus) to get too close and kill him or do most of the job before the a/c pilot gets range again where he wants it.
Same a better a/c pilot can keep that range for a lot more or make the blaster pilot to pay too heavy a cap price for closing and thus make the scales tip on his side.
It used to be the case that the mattari had the worse end of the stick (fights ended too fast with the overwhelming blaster DPS and more likely than not a small mistake meant they died).
Changes in the game like more hitpoints prolongued fights and made cap reliance a much more vital issue.
This sort of equalised things (thats just the way "I feel" remember). So for example the Rupy now (with a/c and mwd often) is hailed as equal or better than the Thorax.
However all these fights have been close with the Gallente ship having A LOT more DPS. Rupy and Rax both had (and still have) double dmg bonuses. Same for Tempy and Thron (both single).
The advent of an a/c Af that has dual dmg bonus where the blaster AF has single is a mistake. It tips the scales to far on the matari side. It makes the margin of error too big for the a/c boat. It can now have a very big part of the fight within the blasterboats optimal and still win due to initial approach and managing to move away during the end.
I think that deifnately the case with mwd (or ab) set ups with scrams but even with mwd and web set ups on both sides, or (o.c.) ab and web set ups on both sides. In fact two frigs with mwd adn no web will hardly ever be within 3-4km of each other...
Anyway, it seems you just care about how good the Wolf will be and how come Tuesday evening you ll "pown" with it... Whatever... have fun.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.19 00:59:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Originally by: Crellion
LOL The only curves on the graph were not the hail and the void curves m8.
As for your delirium tremens about XL guns save it for your m8s at school. I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.
Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.
i wasnt even talkin about the ammo and curves oO
you are trying to compare 200's with ions with is just plain wrong, and sarmaul proved that, as you were arguing that ac's use so much less cpu that it is compearable
you are trying to save that argument of yours by saying now , oke the wolf got more grid so i can now use 200's to compare with ions
i was bringing up the 1 million grid and xl guns to show that it doesnt work that way
you are saying the wolf is so uber, but the only ones who brought the numbers etc were us minnies, you just ignore everything that doesnt suit you
You were trying to say that 9 more cpu is far more important than 11.9 grid for armour tanking AFs. This is an inherently wrong proposition and therefore you made a quasi argument referring to XL guns and 1000 grid or something silly like that...
And?
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:06:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 19/06/2006 01:07:26
Originally by: Crellion
However all these fights have been close with the Gallente ship having A LOT more DPS. Rupy and Rax both had (and still have) double dmg bonuses. Same for Tempy and Thron (both single).
The advent of an a/c Af that has dual dmg bonus where the blaster AF has single is a mistake. It tips the scales to far on the matari side. It makes the margin of error too big for the a/c boat. It can now have a very big part of the fight within the blasterboats optimal and still win due to initial approach and managing to move away during the end.
The rupture, the tempest and the new wolf have dual damage bonus and the thorax, the mega and the enyo have a single damage bonus.
Originally by: Crellion
Anyway, it seems you just care about how good the Wolf will be and how come Tuesday evening you ll "pown" with it... Whatever... have fun.
I have two wolves, both used to kill sansha/blood rats. It's going to stay that way. I have an enyo, used to kill gurista rats before they started jamming, and now in my hangar doing nothing. It's going to stay that way.
The enyo might be lacking something now, but I don't think it's related to the new wolf being uber or anything like that.
NB.
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Bren Kasir
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:11:00 -
[82]
Incidentally you just started throwing insults around now. So the moral battlefield is officially level again :-)
Bren Kasir
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You want fries with that? |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:11:00 -
[83]
Fazit: enyo kills wolf if in blaster range, wolfs kill enyo if it stays out of blaster range like we didnt know before
has it become easier now for the wolf?, obviously yes as it got a new dmg bonus now, such insight, i make a genius deduction that if it becomes easier for the wolf then it will become harder for the enyo
will the wolf still die in blaster range, YES it will
did this move unbalance the Enyo? i dont see how tbh
Do we balance ships around the Enyo? i doubt it
in 1v1, wolf vs enyo, a skilled player will have a slight advantage in wolf imo, but only time and experience will really tell there
i still dont see how the wolf is unbalanced now? perhaps experience will show that ( i doubt it), but the numbers and stats dont really say that atm
and ffs next time try to think a little bit yourself and do the numbers, if you dont do them yourself you only show that you dont really care enough or dont have the understanding for it
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Okoru
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:14:00 -
[84]
Crellion: I don't believe you understand what Sarmaul, NB, and Tiuwaz are trying to tell you.
If you look @ the graphs that NB posted, you can see that the enyo has a much higher damage potential up close. The wolf is merely more flexible with ranges, which allows it to deal it's damage over a greater range. Not to mention, the enyo has a drone (which could be t2), and drones can reach 40km. Yes, the wolf can destroy the drone, but that's your advantage over the wolf with the enyo.
Originally by: Crellion
You were trying to say that 9 more cpu is far more important than 11.9 grid for armour tanking AFs. This is an inherently wrong proposition and therefore you made a quasi argument referring to XL guns and 1000 grid or something silly like that...
I believe more CPU free after fitting guns is far better than more grid. Sure, the grid allows you to fit a plate, but that slows your ship down, and in some cases, slowing your ship down = fatal mistake. The CPU allows you to fit hardeners, or if you so desire Gyro's or Mag Stabs.
Also: Wolf needs two hardeners to patch up it's resistance holes, while the enyo only requires one. I fly an enyo, and I don't see anything wrong with the bonuses on the new wolf. I believe what you're trying to push here, is that the enyo > all at close range. Which in a way, is true. Gallente racial trait is to have high power blasters at close range to obliterate your opponent. The minmatar racial trait is for speed & (in my opinion) flexibility via falloff. I rarely fly a blaster-enyo, mainly because I like rails on it a lot more (optimal bonus wooo!).
If you can't see this, perhaps you should read the posts by Sarmaul, NB, and Tiuwaz a little more carefully.
-Oko
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Originally by: Crellion
LOL The only curves on the graph were not the hail and the void curves m8.
As for your delirium tremens about XL guns save it for your m8s at school. I am referring to a simple comparison of 200II DPs with Ion IIs DPS with EMP and Antimatter no dmg mods no "if that then that" BS.
Of course you dont like what I say. Not because I am wrong but because the minnie lobby just uberized the Wolf and you hate the fact that someone points it out. Simple as that.
i wasnt even talkin about the ammo and curves oO
you are trying to compare 200's with ions with is just plain wrong, and sarmaul proved that, as you were arguing that ac's use so much less cpu that it is compearable
you are trying to save that argument of yours by saying now , oke the wolf got more grid so i can now use 200's to compare with ions
i was bringing up the 1 million grid and xl guns to show that it doesnt work that way
you are saying the wolf is so uber, but the only ones who brought the numbers etc were us minnies, you just ignore everything that doesnt suit you
You were trying to say that 9 more cpu is far more important than 11.9 grid for armour tanking AFs. This is an inherently wrong proposition and therefore you made a quasi argument referring to XL guns and 1000 grid or something silly like that...
And?
sigh, i give up, either you dont get what i said or you just want to wist as you like
lets do it like this:
dmg comparisons are always done with same tier weapons to make fair comparisons
that would be Ions = 150's
now you can come and say if you want, lets compare usual fitted weapons
oke lets do it
enyo = ions ( could be wrong here but dont think so), wolf = 150's
most wolfs currently fit 150's and will continue to do so even after ammo clip increas, i know i will (it just fits way better)
then there is the crellion approach:
enyo ions, and wolf 200's (reason well because it can and because i say, not that its an acutal useful comparisons in most cases but it will help me to prove my obscure point iof which ppl dont really know what it is)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:21:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 19/06/2006 01:22:04
He's making a fair point in that the balance between autocannon and blaster ships is a tricky issue. And he's making another good point in that the enyo, which used to be a fairly good af (in comparison) at some point is with time getting less and less good comparatively. But i think that the issue is not the wolf, it's the enyo, specifically how it has issues finding a role, as can also be seen with the tracking/optimal bonuses, pointing at a very undefined role. What if the tracking bonus of the enyo becomes the new falloff bonus of the incursus mk2 ?
NB.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:34:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 19/06/2006 01:38:33
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 19/06/2006 01:22:04
He's making a fair point in that the balance between autocannon and blaster ships is a tricky issue. And he's making another good point in that the enyo, which used to be a fairly good af (in comparison) at some point is with time getting less and less good comparatively. But i think that the issue is not the wolf, it's the enyo, specifically how it has issues finding a role, as can also be seen with the tracking/optimal bonuses, pointing at a very undefined role. What if the tracking bonus of the enyo becomes the new falloff bonus of the incursus mk2 ?
NB.
read his first post and tell me that was his point :/
edit: read his posts of the entire first page and tell me that was his point :/
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:39:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 19/06/2006 01:43:54
Originally by: Tiuwaz
read his first post and tell me that was his point :/
To find answers is easy; what's hard is to ask the right question. He had a few misconceptions about the wolf as can be seen in a few early posts, but now I hope that it's cleared up.
NB.
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Demangel
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Posted - 2006.06.19 02:11:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Demangel on 19/06/2006 02:12:26
I just wanna know... Why blasters over rails anyway?
Enyo lacks the speed to dictate range over anything I would want to use it against.
Using 125MM II rails, just with Lead and Antimatter, you can effectively hit all ships between 1 and 20KM (Even Close blaster orbiting Ranis's thanks tracking boost), and if it's further away than 20KM and you can't hit it, just warp.
Now fit a good AB, and a Good 20KM scrambler.
Now fit a sexy missile tube, and a couple different missile types.
Now slather the lows with a Repper and whatever else you think will help, resistance gear is good in some cases, Damage mods in others. Stick on a drone just to say you have one, and guess what, it gets the job done as a gang ship quite well. It doesn't take many shots to hurt another ship when it has 4 TII rails, and 1 named missile tube and one TII drone all spitting out agression.
Is it ideal? No... But it is workable.
In short, I don't think the Enyo should be fitted as a Blaster Boat unless it has Tackler support and you want to go for top DPS. But in that case, I would rather use an Ishkur with blasters and heavy damage TII drone compliment...
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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Vera Nosfyu
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Posted - 2006.06.19 02:37:00 -
[90]
First I should weigh in and say that I don't think tehre's much of a balance issue with the Wolf vs. Enyo. Looking at the graphs, the Enyo does more damage at close ranges, the Wolf does more damage far away. This seems like pretty good balance.
I would, however, like to point out the folly in using current 200mm AC stats when they are getting a boost at the same time as the Wolf is.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.06.19 03:43:00 -
[91]
Anyone got a graph on ECM and ECM drones? Because I'm not seeing a wolf beating a real pilot.
That's just me though...
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Vile - Recruiting 0.0 Pirates
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TorpSpammer ExtraordinR
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Posted - 2006.06.19 03:56:00 -
[92]
Hahaha, who the **** flies a wolf or enyo solo anyway ? Ishkur and Jaguar are a lot better for solo pvp  . Why not make a thread about those 2 ?
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.20 10:10:00 -
[93]
Hmmm,
Havent been on for a day or 2 so I missed a lot of posts that completely miss the point and NB's last post that is good.
How to summmarise..
Indeed NB lack of role is the issue. Since the only clear role was the blaster role I made the thread "v Wolf" to show that this role no longer exists.
The "rail role" is moot, a point that the relevant threads miss. If you can use rails invest some time on a Harpy. Same DPS double range 4tw makes Enyo obsolete with rails. That, however was well known for many months.
Against both the problem is the same. If the Enyo had a double damage bonus it would be better than a Harpy in some situations with rails. If it had a double damage bonus it would be more viable with blasters.
Even with an increased fall off bonus and Null ammo it wouldnt be too bad with neutron blasters (if you could fit them) or even Ions.
As it is I cant see what its good for.
Is this whole thing for my personal advancement in the game? No. I havent flown an Enyo in ages because I can fly a Harpy (and I dont even fly any AF these days since I can fly ceptors that I ersonally find much better for pvp).
The blasterEnyo however (which I didnt fly anyway cause I found it too slow to catch what it can kill and too wak to kill what it can catch) was still good -or very good- for AF 1v1s... until now that is. Perhaps the point that they are not to fly solo anyay is valid.
I still think (IMO) it needs bonus adjustments at least as much as the AFs that were helped (and btw that is the reason for the OP and it WAS in the OP).
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