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Cruz
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:01:00 -
[1]
I think the Amarr community would be interested in knowing your opinion as to the current state of Amarrian ships. We would also love to know if you are looking into it, or think that things are fine as is. Thanks.
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For the glory of the empire! |
Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 22/06/2006 18:16:23
He doesnt have an opinion. Because he doesnt fly Amarr
edit : I belive he stated in another thread about a month back that 'lasers are fine the way there are'. However, if he still thinks that after all the reasonable, fact based arguements presented in the Amarr thread (the 790 replies one)then I think hes incompitent.
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
xenorx
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:19:00 -
[3]
It would be nice. There are so many threads currently about it Im surprised we havent seen more GM/Dev feed back on the subject.
The khanid ships need a complete make over. There are several threads on that. Tux did comment on that by saying the idea of a missile spamming armor tanking black ship made him happy in the pants. The general Amarr consensus is that most Amarr women would be willing to help make him even happier in the pants if he would fix these ships.
How about the Retribution? Now that is a seriously gimped ship. How about a little mid slot love? Hell is it even being considered?
I have trained other races so the current situation is not hurting me as much as those newer players who just started recently and specialized in Amarr.
No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cruz on 22/06/2006 18:21:01
Lasers as a weapon may be fine, but the amarr ships themselves aren't :/ Fitting wise, dps wise, cap wise. IMO at least.
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For the glory of the empire! |
Rexy
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:37:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 22/06/2006 18:21:01
Lasers as a weapon may be fine, but the amarr ships themselves aren't :/ Fitting wise, dps wise, cap wise. IMO at least.
isnt amarr supposed to be focused on tanking and less about uber damage? and an armageddon craps out 800 dps afaik with 3 damage mods and t2 ammo, wich seems pretty respecteable. and an apoc's the only bs i know that'll run a dual rep setup fairly easy still, with close to twice the cap my little phoon has
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Marnix
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Marnix on 22/06/2006 18:53:26
The Apoc's huge cap is useless with everyone relying on Cap 800s to sustain their Dual Rep setups. The Apoc has no advantage. It needs 5 cap mods to sustain a Dual Rep tank. That's just not viable, so it has to rely on Cap 800s like the rest of em.
Stay the fck away from my sig, thx.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rexy
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 22/06/2006 18:21:01
Lasers as a weapon may be fine, but the amarr ships themselves aren't :/ Fitting wise, dps wise, cap wise. IMO at least.
isnt amarr supposed to be focused on tanking and less about uber damage? and an armageddon craps out 800 dps afaik with 3 damage mods and t2 ammo, wich seems pretty respecteable. and an apoc's the only bs i know that'll run a dual rep setup fairly easy still, with close to twice the cap my little phoon has
Like marnix said, eveyrone uses cap boosters, and that makes the apocs cap bonus useless for pvp. Secondly, your little phoon uses 0 cap on weapons.
And yes an armageddon can crap out 800dps with t2 weapons. However again no one is really complaining much about the armageddon, its about one of the only decent amarr ships ;-)
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For the glory of the empire! |
El Ponja
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rexy
and an apoc's the only bs i know that'll run a dual rep setup fairly easy still, with close to twice the cap my little phoon has
so what you are saying is that the role of the apoc is tanking.... so its good at getting shot at. Whats the point of having a tank if you cant kill anything?
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Belial02
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:12:00 -
[9]
Yeah thats my question as well :)
And i guess its one of the OPs points...
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Aramendel on 22/06/2006 19:14:14
Another thing is that with a general EAN2 tanking setup (which is all-purpose, non-specialized) other ships tank Amarr damage far better than amarr tank their damage.
Lasers on their own are OK (apart from some light and med lasers really needing their fitting requirments reduced), the problem is how other changes (i.e. passive tanking boost) effect them.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cruz
I think the Amarr community would be interested in knowing your opinion as to the current state of Amarrian ships. We would also love to know if you are looking into it, or think that things are fine as is. Thanks.
Sorry, the Minmatar are being returned to their Pre-Castor glory. Better start training large projectile spec so you can use 8 1400mm on your Apocs! 
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Belial02
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:16:00 -
[12]
Arhem... how do you say that in english again?
Ah yeah, i got it : Not funny 
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:18:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 22/06/2006 19:21:44
Originally by: Rexy
isnt amarr supposed to be focused on tanking and less about uber damage?
It doesnt matter as long as the changes made in RMR made sure that
A) Anyone can tank as well as Amarr
b) Amarr cant break the tank of other ships
edit :
ffs, the more I think about it the more angry I get. I got invested more than 8.5 million sp in laser skills alone and these days they are useless. Ive spendt alot of REAL LIFE MONEY to get those skills.
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Dano Sarum
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:18:00 -
[14]
Still it would be nice to get a reply, i mean do the DEVs HONESTLY think amarr dont suck?
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Belial02
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:22:00 -
[15]
I guess we all want something truly balanced... at least i hope so....
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.06.22 19:56:00 -
[16]
tux is too busy trying to figure out how he is gona make isk now that IO has been nerfed
but i have a question for all of you amarr *****s, why did you people wait this long to speak up? they been "balancing" hacs and stuff while the amarr whole race ships need a rework!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Tassi
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Posted - 2006.06.22 20:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gronsak
but i have a question for all of you amarr *****s, why did you people wait this long to speak up? they been "balancing" hacs and stuff while the amarr whole race ships need a rework!
Because Amarr people are no whiners. We just speak up when trying to adapt does not work.
Amarr can't whine as much as our vitoc junkies 
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.22 20:08:00 -
[18]
Tassi, you might be a bit too young to remember the good old days when the Amarr people were the only whiners on the forums. ('cept for some Caldari people who were trying to get devs to make missiles cost less than an arm and a leg as well as be slightly smaller than the eiffel tower)
As for Tux not having an opinion... well he's not the only dev on the ships and modules team.
New sig coming soonÖ
Tuxford's good for EVE. |
Tassi
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Posted - 2006.06.22 20:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ithildin
Tassi, you might be a bit too young to remember the good old days when the Amarr people were the only whiners on the forums. ('cept for some Caldari people who were trying to get devs to make missiles cost less than an arm and a leg as well as be slightly smaller than the eiffel tower)
As for Tux not having an opinion... well he's not the only dev on the ships and modules team.
I started eve in castor times. Was always amarr, there was no reason to whine for me on forums because my pulse lasers were just ... OMG GIMME BACK THE OLD PULSES!
I don't like to whine on forums just to maybe get some attention by some dev and a couple of necessary fixes. It is just too obvious that the balance is broken here, as it was with the minnies. Dunno why it takes devs THAT long to realise obvious stuff, they are fixing inertia stabilizers instead 
Amarr players cry crocodile tears if they try to fit out a competitive omen and they fix INERTIA STABILIZERS instead 
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Exiled One
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Posted - 2006.06.22 23:35:00 -
[20]
I don't a **** anymore about amarr, everyone will be training for caldari/minmatar frig lvl5 at least and then they will see that minmatar is THE race for pvp. Thank you CCP for trying to keep your customers subscribed. "Looky here, i really like lasers and stuff, going to train for an apoc - the describtion is awesome, the looks are great, 8 laser slots, omgcap, it will be awesome on the battlefield" - 7 months later "BLOODY NERF AGAIN, apoc is a piece of bolox, going to train for minmatar bs for the next 6 months"
That's the real reason for boosts/nerfs.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tassi
Originally by: Gronsak
but i have a question for all of you amarr *****s, why did you people wait this long to speak up? they been "balancing" hacs and stuff while the amarr whole race ships need a rework!
Because Amarr people are no whiners. We just speak up when trying to adapt does not work.
Amarr can't whine as much as our vitoc junkies
the big differenc btw amarr whiners and minni whiners is that 99% of amarr whiners dont come up with numbers
pretty much every minni change was backed up by numbers of various ppl
i am not saying that amarr is totally fine, they could use some tweaks but all i ever read, with some rare exceptions, are only whines without numbers backing it up
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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bldyannoyed
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:38:00 -
[22]
I must be missing something. I flew matar for a bit, hated them.
Trained gallente. Love blasters, am happy.
Got a raven for lvl4's, boring as crap, makes me cry, does the job.
Figured all 4 races on one account would be silly so got a power of 2 account and got a khanid.
She now flies a geddon which is absolutley bloody awesome.
And so is the arbie. And i also like mallers and prophs, tho all proper amarrians seem to bundle them in the rubbish ship pile.
And what the hell is wrong with the retri? so its only got one mid and cant really solo gank, but for smegs sake its harder than most cruisers.
I think amarrians are all mental.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
the big differenc btw amarr whiners and minni whiners is that 99% of amarr whiners dont come up with numbers
pretty much every minni change was backed up by numbers of various ppl
i am not saying that amarr is totally fine, they could use some tweaks but all i ever read, with some rare exceptions, are only whines without numbers backing it up
qft,
To be honest, give examples, with numbers.
Amarr has a lot of fine ships and some that arent so great. Tux isn't going to read this thread and suddenly boost dps on all amarr ships by 10% on a whim.
It takes good, valid points and solid maths to grease the wheels of change.
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 01:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gronsak
but i have a question for all of you amarr *****s, why did you people wait this long to speak up?
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Sniser
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Posted - 2006.06.23 01:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Tiuwaz
the big differenc btw amarr whiners and minni whiners is that 99% of amarr whiners dont come up with numbers
pretty much every minni change was backed up by numbers of various ppl
i am not saying that amarr is totally fine, they could use some tweaks but all i ever read, with some rare exceptions, are only whines without numbers backing it up
qft,
To be honest, give examples, with numbers.
Amarr has a lot of fine ships and some that arent so great. Tux isn't going to read this thread and suddenly boost dps on all amarr ships by 10% on a whim.
It takes good, valid points and solid maths to grease the wheels of change.
there are a lot post with numbers but people its too lazy and dont even read them ^^
you could begin reading Amarr thread with 27 pages atm ^^, also there are many more threads with numbers and good stuff
i really would love know what thinks tux about Amarr problem
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.06.23 02:08:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 22/06/2006 18:53:26
The Apoc's huge cap is useless with everyone relying on Cap 800s to sustain their Dual Rep setups. The Apoc has no advantage. It needs 5 cap mods to sustain a Dual Rep tank. That's just not viable, so it has to rely on Cap 800s like the rest of em.
Yeah but you have twice the cap and ammo free cargo space for more charges. If you have a tackler that knows what they are doing an apoc can outlast a megathron's injectors. A hint would be Heavy Neuts, NOS and dual heavy pulse IIs with ewar drones.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Marnix
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Posted - 2006.06.23 02:11:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Marnix on 23/06/2006 02:11:12
Aye, its a setup ive used a fair bit myself. But it's outdone by a Dominix with a similar setup. More nos, more dmg, can fit EW, same tank.
Dont get me wrong, the Apoc's cap is nice for PvE, but for PvP its pointless.
Stay the fck away from my sig, thx.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.23 10:52:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Aramendel on 23/06/2006 10:54:26
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Tiuwaz
the big differenc btw amarr whiners and minni whiners is that 99% of amarr whiners dont come up with numbers
pretty much every minni change was backed up by numbers of various ppl
i am not saying that amarr is totally fine, they could use some tweaks but all i ever read, with some rare exceptions, are only whines without numbers backing it up
qft,
To be honest, give examples, with numbers.
Amarr has a lot of fine ships and some that arent so great. Tux isn't going to read this thread and suddenly boost dps on all amarr ships by 10% on a whim.
It takes good, valid points and solid maths to grease the wheels of change.
To be honest, there isn't really much math involved. Most stuff is more a common senseÖ than a math thing. The problems have been explained quite a few times already, although there is also a good amount of general whining which makes it difficult to find them. To recap them:
- The pure, unmitigrated damagepoutput of lasers is fine, period. That is not the problem here. The problems are mainly secondary effects by other gameplay mechanics. Especially..
- ECM. ECM is right now very powerful in PvP, so powerful that it got pretty much madatory to use it. This cannot really shown by graphs or math, but it should be pretty obvious by now and has been discussed in other threads. Effectively this is causing 2 problems at once for amarr ships:
- Of all races Amarr have the least amount of med slots and are because of this in the disadvantage of the fun who-jams-who-first game.
- Shieldtanking and ECM both use med slots. With the current I-Win situation for ECM people rather use this instead of shield tank and switch to an armor tank instead. Even Ravens quite often use an armortank for PvP. Lasers are - unless you specifically choose the harderners against them - the best weapon against shieldtanks, but the worst against armortanks.
- Now, you usually do not stuff all your lows full of resistance modules. Also, you normally do not know what kinda of targets you will face, so you will try to get a balanced resistance outfit with the least amount of modules possible.
The best was pre-RMR 1 exp, kin & thermal harderner and is now 2 EAN2 + DC. Vs non-laser weapons this isn't changing much (the main advantages there is that it basically does not need cap and gives also 50-58% hull resists), but vs lasers it is reducing the EM damage by half compared to the older setup.
This, too, cannot really be shown by graphs or math, especially how common the EAN2 + DC setup is now. But I haven't seen a better allporpuse setup so far. A good comparsion for the "old" vs the "new" setup was posted here, though.
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On top of this are a few minor problems:
- light and medium lasers needing too much powergrid compared to similar weapons. For example, a 150mm rail with 25% damage bonus and a Medium Beam with a 50% cap bonus have very similar dps and cap/s values, but the rail needs 10 PG while the med beam needs 16.
- Khanid ships...could be solved by Sarmauls suggestions
- the cap bonus of the apoc is not really very useful due to cap injectors, a 5% resistance bonus would be better there.
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Sniser
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sniser on 23/06/2006 11:00:45
Originally by: Aramendel
On top of this are a few minor problems:
- light and medium lasers needing too much powergrid compared to similar weapons. For example, a 150mm rail with 25% damage bonus and a Medium Beam with a 50% cap bonus have very similar dps and cap/s values, but the rail needs 10 PG while the med beam needs 16.
not only light and medium lasers need too much powergrid and cpu, Large lasers have the same hard fittings. Dont forgot large bs can do light tank + gank, we can do tank or gank.
also there are some ships need love too (hello omen & retribution)
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Kaleeb
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:05:00 -
[30]
Maybe the lack of Dev response means they think amaar are fine
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