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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:42:00 - [1] I think Caldari battleships should have the 5% range bonus per level of skill changed to 5% damage bonus. It makes sense for Caldari ships to receive a damage bonus since we only have 4 turrets. The recent patches have introduced an interesting change: Amarrian BS pilots now use tachyons, Minmatar BS pilots now use projectiles, and Gallente use hybrids. This is solely because of the damage bonus on the battleship skills for those races. Caldari are left out in the cold when it comes to decided which weapons to use. 5% range bonus is pretty useless considering the range at which most battles take place. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
zincol	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:45:00 - [2] Edited by: zincol on 28/09/2003 11:45:03 i agree w00t
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:46:00 - [3] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 28/09/2003 11:46:52 You won't find much support for that, though I do believe that Caldari ships need more incentive to use hybrids... honestly you're probably better off using projectiles with caldari ships right now. I would give Caldari ships a ROF bonus with hybrids (would make the 425mm railgun better since it's ROF AND damage SUCK and Caldari ships are supposed to be the best with -railguns-).. I'd say damage but that would kinda intrude on the Gallante bonus. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Carbon	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:49:00 - [4] Edited by: Carbon on 28/09/2003 11:50:29 Jushua: Amarr ship skills do not give damage bonuses. Several Caldari ships are overpowered as it is, IMHO. The scorpion and it's immense shields and eight medslots is the poster child of the devs' love of the Caldari. :)
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:49:00 - [5] Yeah, I'm thinking of going with 1200mm's on my Scorpion but I truly hate losing any kind of bonus. It's just bad design. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:51:00 - [6] I know Amarrians don't have a damage bonus but they do get a cap recharge bonus which encourages the use of lasers. Each race has a traditional weapon but it seems the Caldarians, due to bad design, don't have any specific reason to use hybrids over, say, projectiles. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Roba	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:55:00 - [7] Actually the best bonus for a Caldri b-ship would be a 10 per lvl bonus to hybrid range. Caladri ships are supposed to be snipers. They have the longest range targeting. 425mm Rails would be extremely deadly weapons if you could open up with hybrid ammo at 100km. Ofcourse such range would require lvl 4 caladri b-ship. But it would make up for the 4 turrets. Or maybe a missile cloaking bonus? Think about it. 10sec per lvl. Right now its not effective for a Raven to fire its torps at long range because they will just be shot down. But what is at lvl 4 you got a 40sec cloak on them. Could fire them at 100km and the guy wouldn't knwo they were coming till the last 10 or so km.
Carbon	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:56:00 - [8] The Caldari are missile lovers. Most importantly, they're the authority on EW.. you expect their use of hybrids to be equally masterful as the Gallente? I certainly hope not!
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:56:00 - [9] The range bonus on Caldari ships is simply useless. It's pretty much like the velocity bonus for the Mimnatar ships, they got ROF and DMG bonus, instead. :) Railguns already have huge range, adding 15-20% to it just doesn't do much of anything. The range bonus on neutron/ion blasters obviously is USELESS another 400m of optimal? Wow.... it's basically like having no bonus at all. Give Caldari ships a ROF bonus for hybrids instead. Something useful, please. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:00:00 - [10] Quote: The Caldari are missile lovers. Most importantly, they're the authority on EW.. you expect their use of hybrids to be equally masterful as the Gallente? I certainly hope not! Here's the rundown for you guys so you know. Caldari = Railguns / Missles Gallante = Hybrid Blasters / Drones Look at the starting rookie ships, caldari ship starts with a civilian railgun, gallante starts with a civilian blaster. Yes I do expect Caldari ships to have a good hybrid bonus, because they are supposed to use railguns the best.. as Gallante use ion blasters the best. Only one Caldari ship in this game gets a missle ROF bonus, and that's the Raven. Gallante are obviously the kings of Drone deployment. So... yeah I don't think the Caldari bonus is worth jack atm, and it should. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
zincol	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:00:00 - [11] Edited by: zincol on 28/09/2003 12:00:53 Quote: Actually the best bonus for a Caldri b-ship would be a 10 per lvl bonus to hybrid range. Caladri ships are supposed to be snipers. They have the longest range targeting. 425mm Rails would be extremely deadly weapons if you could open up with hybrid ammo at 100km. Ofcourse such range would require lvl 4 caladri b-ship. But it would make up for the 4 turrets. long range - at 100km to even 65km is ineffective using 425mm,as the enermy is able to warp away, or just carry on flying past... also 425mm love power grid fire missles at this range ... hmmm LOL w00t!
Carbon	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:08:00 - [12] Jim and Jushua: You are completely ignoring *electronic warfare*!
Ka'loor	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:14:00 - [13] The Range bonus gives you one advamtage with rails, you can use more damaging ammo, while you retain about the same range as other ships do with rails, so in effect the range bonus translates into a damage bonus. The Amarr ships are the only ones without a damage upgrade..... Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself. Better to die with honor, than to live in shame.
zincol	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:32:00 - [14] Edited by: zincol on 28/09/2003 12:35:27 long range - makes EW (electronic warfare) suck / out of range.... seem's long range isnt for EW ships,i may be wrong though. Scorpian Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% increase in max shield hitpoints per level. w00t
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.09.28 13:38:00 - [15] Edited by: xeno calligan on 28/09/2003 13:42:59 In order to have an incentive for pilots to train BS skills, there must be a fitting reward and the benefit ought to be roughly equal across the races. The fact is that increased range does not measure up to e.g. increased damage in any way. 5% increased range does not give as great an advantage as 5% damage, a lot more would be needed to compensate The bonuses for other races benefit the entire weapon category, but caldari bonuses only benefit rails. A bonus to an optimal range of 2.8km on a blaster does not matter in combat. As I have remarked some time ago, I think the best solution would be to give two bonuses instead of one: 5% to optimal and 5% to tracking per level This way I think it actually would balance out with the bonuses from the other races and it would be in line with basic idea of the original bonus: caldari = precision.
dalman	Posted - 2003.09.28 14:11:00 - [16] 8 battleships with 2 bonuses each = total of 16. Of these 16 most are very good. More exactly, 13 is very good. And 3 sucks. These 3 are: +5% hybrid range on Raven and Scorpion. +5% drone space on Dominix. They NEED to be changed. Dunno about what bonus the Dominix should be changed to, but: Scorpion: Change it to MISSILE ROF(same as Raven has), TARGETING TIME or CAP RECHARGE Raven: SHIELD (same as Scorpion has), MISSILE SPEED or MISSILE DAMAGE. However, the current RANGE bonus could be made USEFUL by changing the stats on HYBRID AMMO. Because the -50% to +30% simply SUCKS. Projectile users can do great damage from distance with "high damage ammo" due to the long falloff range on 1400mm. Laser users can do great damage from distance due to radio L chrystals that have a good base damage and the huge +60% range bonus. Railguns were meant to be the best long range weapons, still they SUCK on long range. They have no falloff, so you have to use "low damage ammo" so you do very little damage, and still you only get a silly +30% range bonus with Iron. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
dalman	Posted - 2003.09.28 14:17:00 - [17] Also, the skills Electronic warfare, Senor linking and Propulsion jamming NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. Give them -4% to cap use instead of +5% to duration. Many EW modules already have 30 seconds duration. If you need to change target, or the target is destroyed/warps away, you may have to wait 29 seconds before you can activate these modules on a new target. As you must understand, THE TIME BONUS IS A BAD BONUS. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.09.28 14:55:00 - [18] Ok so you have EW, missiles and shields. Now you even want some hybrid bonuses? How about you get hybrid bonus, some extra drone space and cheese? -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.09.28 15:55:00 - [19] Shields Shields really don't matter much when it comes to battles. Tachyons take shields down quicker than a **s knickers. EW EW either works or you die. Missiles Can't use them in Empire Space. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Solas	Posted - 2003.09.28 16:28:00 - [20] Sorry I just donÆt buy it. Caldari already have missiles and electronic warfare. You can use those med slots to easily balance out you not getting an innate mod that increases damage. Scorpion is not meant to be a damage dealer; the Raven has a bonus to missile launcher speed.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.09.28 16:32:00 - [21] Edited by: xeno calligan on 28/09/2003 16:48:58 Quote: Ok so you have EW, missiles and shields. Now you even want some hybrid bonuses? How about you get hybrid bonus, some extra drone space and cheese? IMO this is not about ballancing ships against each other, but ensuring that there is an incentive to train caldari pilot skills beyond the basic requirement. Caldari is in the got-nothing-else-to-do category as supposed to the other races that are in the insane-if-you-don't category. EDIT: couldn't resist: Got Shields Amarr has armor, Gallente has a bit of both. So?? Got ECM True, but few low slots for dmg mods and extra grid/cpu to fit more and larger weapons Got Missiles We'd better have! No caldari ship has more than 4 turret hardpoints, so something has to give, no?
Centauri	Posted - 2003.09.28 19:14:00 - [22] Any Caldari player complaining about their ships is being ridiculously selfish. You bought the ship (whatever it was) knowing FULL WELL what sort of attributes it has. Complaining after the fact that you're not thrilled with the set up...that's quite innapropriate. You have more shields than anyone, and ususally TWO TIMES as many medium slots as anyone else, and sometimes even more than that! I've always seen Caldari ships as support ships. EW platforms that can deal out acceptable damage, and stay safe behind their mega-shields, and EW protection. Typical merchants, Caldari are "save my own ass" first. Now they want to have the best shields, the best EW, the most medium slots, AND high damage mods. Yes boys, that's really fair. CCP is, as we speak, laughing at this thread. Centauri, Former Fleet Admiral of Star Control
Lurk	Posted - 2003.09.28 19:37:00 - [23] The only problem is that battles (PvP) usually take place <20km (due to the inability to warp scramble at further distances). So range doesn't matter that much. If that would be changed you can easily outrun your opponent and fight him at say 40km where he cannot fight back.
Sphalerite	Posted - 2003.09.28 21:15:00 - [24] If I were in charge, I'd have both Caldari battleships get a bonus to shields and missiles. Those would fit both ship's roles better, with the raven as a missileboat tank, and the scorpion as an EW platform using missiles for its offense. To make missiles truely the equal of turrets as a main offensive weapon, I'd like to see another (rank 5 or so)ROF skill added, a missile damage skill added, a missile agility skill and maybe a couple others. With these, you could make turrets the afterthought that missile slots are on other race's ships. I also think it would be pretty cool to have the Dom get +1 drone control with each level. I'm all for making each race's ships as unique as possible.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.09.28 21:43:00 - [25] Quote: If I were in charge, I'd have both Caldari battleships get a bonus to shields and missiles. Those would fit both ship's roles better, with the raven as a missileboat tank, and the scorpion as an EW platform using missiles for its offense. To make missiles truely the equal of turrets as a main offensive weapon, I'd like to see another (rank 5 or so)ROF skill added, a missile damage skill added, a missile agility skill and maybe a couple others. With these, you could make turrets the afterthought that missile slots are on other race's ships. I also think it would be pretty cool to have the Dom get +1 drone control with each level. I'm all for making each race's ships as unique as possible. Cool ideas. I was thinking perhaps Scorpion could get an EW-related bonus. Targetting speed or an increase in its gravimetric strength per level. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Thufir Hawat	Posted - 2003.09.28 22:52:00 - [26] Half the galaxy's been in Scorpions since people started climbing into battleships, and now people are flying Ravens too because of the missile changes. I understand the Caldari frustration with their crappy bonuses but it seems fairly clear that the battleships themselves are not underpowered, or you wouldn't see them everywhere. If you do want this kind of bonus it seems right to give up one of your advantages for it -- trade it for a medium slot, maybe. Oh, no go? Then you should probably live with things how they are.
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.09.29 00:29:00 - [27] Quote: Cool ideas. I was thinking perhaps Scorpion could get an EW-related bonus. Targetting speed or an increase in its gravimetric strength per level. Now that I can agree with, as it is scorpion speciallity. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Dura'Lorth	Posted - 2003.09.29 01:58:00 - [28] Caldari ships would benifit from ROF or 5% optimal Range bonous. but u have to see that each race is diffrent. Amarr-Lotsa Armor-weps stip sheilds Gal- Drones and damage bonous they should be long range. Minmatar- ROF bonous and Dmg bonouses they also have extreme spped but have very little cpu and Pwrgrd due. Caldari- Ew and range the range blows casue u have to be fairly close to stop your oppenets from running away they shoul dchange the caldari and galante(sp) bonouses. IMHO +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Merc for hire, anything withing the limits
NoHawker	Posted - 2003.09.29 02:30:00 - [29] Yes Caldari ships are too weak ATM, make them stronger please What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
Replicant Amara	Posted - 2003.09.29 17:27:00 - [30] Edited by: Replicant Amara on 29/09/2003 17:29:46 Caldary more love.. R U Crazy? Forget about the guns... Answer this two questions? Who will fight against a Scorpion on a one to one battle ?... pick any other BS NOBODY, so right there you think you don;t have a huge advantage? Raven? I think is the only Ship a Scorpion should think twice to go on a 1 v1 with a Scorpion... Yes maybe you don't have the fire power of the other ships so I will Agree to give them more power if you put 2 more medium slot and 200 more cpu on the Tempest... What you are asking is for a uber scorpion (not that is not like that already...)

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