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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:08:00 -
[1]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 23/06/2006 13:09:55
In the BLUE corner we have Viceroy who states that the 'cost of a lost ship is the market value at which you could have sold it'.
Whilst in the RED corner we have DigitalCommunist who asserts that this doesn't take into account opportunity cost (however as he's too full of himself to respond to others this may be slightly inaccurate).
Let the discussion commence ..
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:10:00 -
[2]
Blue?
13 -_- |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:11:00 -
[3]
For me the greatest cost is the time I spend getting a new one. I hate doing that
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DeathWarrior
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:12:00 -
[4]
Example :
I Buy a Nighthawk for 50million ISK, Nighthawks sell on market for 160+ or so.
Viceroy says that when I lose the ship I lose 160mil, which I think is incorrect because I would only lose the money I originally invested which was 50mil.
How Can I lose money I dont have?
 Originally by: Tuxford
I once tried to kick my brother when I had my pants around my ankle. Probably not my brightest moments.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:14:00 -
[5]
The cost of a ship is the amount of money you spent to acquire it.
It's VALUE is the amount of money you could have sold it for.
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Don't make War, War is messy. Make love instead, so your kids will do the War part for you. |
DeathWarrior
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:16:00 -
[6]
and ... try and actually give a good answer rather than red/blue 
Originally by: Tuxford
I once tried to kick my brother when I had my pants around my ankle. Probably not my brightest moments. |
Caleb Paine
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Caleb Paine on 23/06/2006 13:17:54
Depends on the situation actually.
If you are in a region where that product costs 50 mil and you can't really go to the region where it costs 160 mil, you lose 50 mil as it never was your intention to sell, so the 160 mil thing doesn't apply to you.
However, if your plan was to SELL it for 160 mil, if it then gets destroyed, you lost 160 mil.
Insurance aside ofcourse
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Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
My sig edit button is cloaked, it can't be touched! |
Temi
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: DeathWarrior
Example :
I Buy a Nighthawk for 50million ISK, Nighthawks sell on market for 160+ or so.
Viceroy says that when I lose the ship I lose 160mil, which I think is incorrect because I would only lose the money I originally invested which was 50mil.
How Can I lose money I dont have?
you lose isk by losing a ship??
last time i lost a ship i got a whole bunch of isk transfer to my wallet by your friendly insurance company...
Spelling errors ahoy.. |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:18:00 -
[9]
The biggest cost of a ship for me is the time taken to kit it out etc etc.
So red
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:19:00 -
[10]
the cost of loosing the ships is the amount it takes to replace it (fully kitted)
Buy tempest for 100mil
insure for 30
Fit for 100
Total Cost 230
Loose ship
Insurance payout 100mil
reinsure 30
Refit - Saved mosds from wreckage 60mil
Rebuy ship 100mil
Loss is 90mil
When your fully kitted out to the origional ship then what u payed out I would only consider lost
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:19:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:24:26
Originally by: Temi
Originally by: DeathWarrior
Example :
I Buy a Nighthawk for 50million ISK, Nighthawks sell on market for 160+ or so.
Viceroy says that when I lose the ship I lose 160mil, which I think is incorrect because I would only lose the money I originally invested which was 50mil.
How Can I lose money I dont have?
you lose isk by losing a ship??
last time i lost a ship i got a whole bunch of isk transfer to my wallet by your friendly insurance company...
You spent money to get that insurance didnt you? 
...and your mods....and the time it takes you to buy, equip, move and outfit your new ship.
I'm with DigitalCommunist on this one. Market value just doesn't cover it.
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Sig to come soonish.
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:21:00 -
[12]
The cost of losing a ship depends on the person, the circumstances and the future intent.
The cost of me losing a tech-1 fitted Raven used for mission running is about 80 million:
30 mill to reinsure the new raven paid for by insurance.
20 mill for the new modules for it.
30 mill lost in mission payouts/bounties/loot over the time it takes to get a new one and outfit it again.
The cost of me losing a T2-fitted HAC in PvP could be zero if I don't intend to replace it.
The key to winning long wars is to correctly ascertain how to inflict the maximum cost *to them* on your enemies whilst minimizing the real cost on yourself.
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Abdalion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:25:00 -
[13]
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
___
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Flyyn
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Abdalion
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
Sorry red and blue dont make PINK...more purple.
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:31:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 23/06/2006 13:31:46
If you are poor, you are blue. If you are rich, you are red.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Panzer Klien
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:35:00 -
[16]
Amount lost at loss of ship =
Cost of ship +
Cost of fittings +
Clone -
Insurance
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Yukiko Kura
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:35:00 -
[17]
The cost of losing a ship is your pride 
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:40:30
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:39:51
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:39:10
Originally by: Abdalion
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
No, no....I think its definately [font color=orange]GREEN.[/font id=orange]
Edit:  Bah....I think the Dev's nerfed me.
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Sig to come soonish.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 23/06/2006 13:38:16
My personal opinion is that this is the REPLACEMENT COST which is made up of:
- Purchase price of a new ship (not necessarily the same model)
- Opportunity cost - as championed by Digi
MOOCIFER  Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Temi
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:40:00 -
[20]
if you buy a hac for 40mil, while its market value is 200mil
and you manage to lose it, its is a 200mil loss. However it does not mean you have to go grind yourself to death to get 200mil back, before you are at 0 again.
when you buy the ship at 40mil isk, its not really an expence, you could say you gain 160mil isk when you buy the ship, because you get somethign worth 200mil and pay 40mil for it(200-40=160).
saying that losing the hac only is a 40mil loss is about equally true to mining your ass off building a dreadnought and then losing it, and claim it didnt cost you anythying ;)
Spelling errors ahoy.. |
Temi
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:24:26
Originally by: Temi
Originally by: DeathWarrior
Example :
I Buy a Nighthawk for 50million ISK, Nighthawks sell on market for 160+ or so.
Viceroy says that when I lose the ship I lose 160mil, which I think is incorrect because I would only lose the money I originally invested which was 50mil.
How Can I lose money I dont have?
you lose isk by losing a ship??
last time i lost a ship i got a whole bunch of isk transfer to my wallet by your friendly insurance company...
You spent money to get that insurance didnt you?
...and your mods....and the time it takes you to buy, equip, move and outfit your new ship.
I'm with DigitalCommunist on this one. Market value just doesn't cover it.
you completely failed to grasp what i was saying :o
Spelling errors ahoy.. |
Gold Star
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:40:30
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:39:51
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 23/06/2006 13:39:10
Originally by: Abdalion
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
No, no....I think its definately Brown
Edit: Bah....I think the Dev's nerfed me.
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You can have my gun when you pry it from my paranoid, mentally disturbed, physically-abusive, cold, dead fingers |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Abdalion
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
No, no....I think its definately [orange]GREEN.[orange]
Edit: Bah....I think the Dev's nerfed me.
O RLY?
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0Virtu0
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:46:00 -
[24]
[color=blue]Blue, I choose you![/color]
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Abdalion
The answer to this is definitely PINK.
It is on the Out Of Pod Experience forum where a handbag match is being organised.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:51:00 -
[26]
The cost of losing a ship depends on the time involved in getting back to an initial state + potential loss + mineral cost.
Initial state: Getting the same ship you were in with the same equipment at the same location.
The more time it takes to get back to this initial state, the higher the loss.
Potential loss: What you could have mined/npc'd/looted but will never be able to
Can't be predicted, potentially high or nothing at all.
Mineral cost: Duh.
I win.
-
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:55:00 -
[27]
The cost of the lose is really how much you need to pay to get it back? :P
13 -_- |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Meridius
The cost of losing a ship depends on the time involved in getting back to an initial state + potential loss + mineral cost.
Initial state: Getting the same ship you were in with the same equipment at the same location.
The more time it takes to get back to this initial state, the higher the loss.
Potential loss: What you could have mined/npc'd/looted but will never be able to
Can't be predicted, potentially high or nothing at all.
Mineral cost: Duh.
I win.
Meridius wins the thread.
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Uggster
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Posted - 2006.06.23 14:00:00 -
[29]
The real cost of a ship is totally dependant on the situation.
Example 1 : A well off mission runner that has helped other in his/her time of running mission and has a good sized network of friends and contacts that can help that person replace lost componats for a reasonable price and in good time. If this person loses a BS to a lvl 4 mission unless it is filled with all top notch faction kit a 50-100 mill lose might be incuered but wont have any real or lasting effect on the player. Loss: 100 mill or so and a bit of time.
Example 2 : A noob has his ship, which is kitted out with the best stuff they have bought (or found and not sold), popped by a gate camp or lost due to a noobish mistake and even though they have the insurance money they have prolly lost 60-75% of their Net Eve value. Loss : less than 2 mill some tears and a bit of time.
Example 3 : A fleet commander who loses his/her covert at the start of a major engagement and there is no-one else in the fleet that has that persons experiance and knowlage. Loss : 75mill and possibly a whole lot more.
I think you can see that although the first example is the largest cost it boils down to nothing in the end, and although the noobs loss is bad (for the noob) the last example could end up costing more than just a few mill and a couple of hours to get new kit.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.23 14:04:00 -
[30]
The cost of kitting out a ship for the first time:
What you paid for the ship
+ What you paid for the modules & ammo & everything else in/on it
+ Insurance cost
The cost of losing that ship for the first time:
The cost of kitting it out for the first time
- Any modules/ammo retrieved
- Insurance payout
The cost of replacing a ship:
The cost of losing a ship (if you've just lost one)
+ How much you need to pay for the new modules/ammo
+ Insurance cost
For items you get for free, you can either work out what you would have had to pay for them ("If I didn't fit them I could've sold them for xxx isk"), or just not count them ("I didn't pay/work for it, it's not costing me anything"). There is no right or wrong way to look at it. In fact, the best solution would be to work it out for both scenarios and then use it as a range, i.e. "I lost between 150m-200m ISK, depending on if you count free stuff". You could take the average ("I lost on average 175m on that ship, +- 25m").
IMO just use the range. That way the idiots who want you to include the price of free modules are happy, and the idiots who don't want to include the price of free modules are happy too.
Now stop yer *****ing!
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
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