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Prometheus Wrong
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Posted - 2006.06.24 19:03:00 -
[1]
Seriously. LR BS guns = 2x range of LR frig guns. Extream BS range with T2 ammo at 55km for the win. BS with MWDs in fleet fights? Ships classes other than BS being usable? Maybe increase the relevence of sig radius a bit more? Make ships warpable objects? Reduce min warp-to range to 50km? Snipin' has been boring for a while now: T2 LR ammo has pushed things into snore territory.
Auto-tempest viable in a fleet brawl? What a novel concept.
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2006.06.24 19:15:00 -
[2]
You bring at least 5x people's numbers every time you fight.
250:50 when fighting COL, RAT and SE.
25:5 when fighting Burn Eden.
And of course extreme cases like 20 vs me back in ec-.
You have absolutely zero right to cry about the tactics superior pilots are forced to use against your OMGblobs.
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FFGR
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Posted - 2006.06.24 19:20:00 -
[3]
depends on the FCs.
If they don't like messes/don't have confidence, they tend to use sniping (or when the enemy has far more superior firepower AKA blobbing).
So far of all the fleet battles I have done, I always jump to the target and we engage at short/medium range (that beeing less than 40-50km).
Oh, and first consider what you post, have some proof to back it up ect, don't start threads by generalizing.
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siggys v. 0.5 |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:05:00 -
[4]
It would be cool if ranges were dropped down some making closer range ships more viable in anything other than small gangs.
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:07:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Necrologic
It would be cool if ranges were dropped down some making closer range ships more viable in anything other than small gangs.
Short range ships are deadly and can turn a sniper run into a slaughter if the FC knows when to strike with them.
Theres nothing wrong in the system at the moment except lack of player skill...
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Necrologic
It would be cool if ranges were dropped down some making closer range ships more viable in anything other than small gangs.
Short range ships are deadly and can turn a sniper run into a slaughter if the FC knows when to strike with them.
Theres nothing wrong in the system at the moment except lack of player skill...
Actually i think the problem is more a lack of servers that can support a close range blob fight, and lack of incentive to use short range when focus fired sniping works only slightly worse for much less effort and more security.
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Ather Ialeas
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Prometheus Wrong
Seriously. LR BS guns = 2x range of LR frig guns. Extream BS range with T2 ammo at 55km for the win. BS with MWDs in fleet fights? Ships classes other than BS being usable? Maybe increase the relevence of sig radius a bit more? Make ships warpable objects? Reduce min warp-to range to 50km? Snipin' has been boring for a while now: T2 LR ammo has pushed things into snore territory.
Auto-tempest viable in a fleet brawl? What a novel concept.
Assuming I understood the very core of your post, I can almost quarantee that as soon as I get the math done (lots of crazy stuff) you will love me, especially if you like the following:
Game logic wise-way of not being able to call primary/secondary/tertiary targets on a person's name-level in fleet battles.
Range nerf making 60km the furthest distance to shoot.
ECM nerf without actually touching the ECM itself.
Hiding in Veldspar (!)
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My signature exploded :/ |
Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Necrologic
Actually i think the problem is more a lack of servers that can support a close range blob fight, and lack of incentive to use short range when focus fired sniping works only slightly worse for much less effort and more security.
Dunno, when the attack is planned and setup right, with EW and stuff, the target of the short range fleet won't stand a chance in ****. Especially if they are set up for sniping. Been on both the giving and reciving end of these and I gotto say. It ain't pretty.
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:23:00 -
[9]
Caldari tier 3 bs will have optimal range of 208km. 
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Prometheus Wrong
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Masta Killa
You bring at least 5x people's numbers every time you fight.
250:50 when fighting COL, RAT and SE.
25:5 when fighting Burn Eden.
And of course extreme cases like 20 vs me back in ec-.
You have absolutely zero right to cry about the tactics superior pilots are forced to use against your OMGblobs.
Nothing 'leet about extreme range fights other than your acrrued Skillpoints. Maximum security, minimum diversity. It's boring.
Collapsing the total possible envelope to something much (this is key) smaller will instantly result in more diversified fleets, and the Raven actually being capable of more than NPCing and running stabbed-out in small gank-fleets. (see, I was thinking of making the world better for B-E too).
Missile ships, ships smaller than BS, and Carriers could all better perform their intended tasks. Things would simply be a hell of a lot more interesting than sniper blob vs. sniper blob. Skilled pilots who can organize better fleets would still have the edge, and gain more options in achieving that edge.
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Guillame Herschel
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Posted - 2006.06.24 20:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 24/06/2006 20:59:55
Originally by: Prometheus Wrong
Nothing 'leet about extreme range fights other than your acrrued Skillpoints. Maximum security, minimum diversity. It's boring.
It's Walt Disney Corp's job to entertain you. It's our job to shoot you down.
Originally by: Prometheus Wrong
Collapsing the total possible envelope to something much (this is key) smaller will instantly result in more diversified fleets
I favor Affirmative Action instead. No gang can participate in combat unless the ships in it are diversified, by percentages according to actual racial composition of the gang with which combat is contemplated. Once all the forms are filed with Concorde Affirmative Action Agency, and the diversity of the involved gangs are verified, hostilities may then commence. It is absolutely essential if EVE is to remain entertaining, that no one be allowed to achieve an advantage through guile, especially not advanced cunning like staying out of enemy range.
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Klasanov
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Posted - 2006.06.24 21:18:00 -
[12]
Covert ops ships are for getting close. So no need to nerf anything. Just hire a covert ops pilot to fly close and then warp to him.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 21:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Masta Killa
<Stuff about ASCN>
Respectfully use the Corporations, Alliances and Factions forums for that crap. This forum is about ships and modules - not about their pilots.
Thank you.
New sig coming soonÖ
Tuxford's good for EVE. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.24 22:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Necrologic
It would be cool if ranges were dropped down some making closer range ships more viable in anything other than small gangs.
Short range ships are deadly and can turn a sniper run into a slaughter if the FC knows when to strike with them.
Theres nothing wrong in the system at the moment except lack of player skill...
Actually i think the problem is more a lack of servers that can support a close range blob fight
Key point afaik.
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BuSHiDo ZiN
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Posted - 2006.06.24 22:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
It's Walt Disney Corp's job to entertain you. It's our job to shoot you down.
Its CCP's job to entertain me. Currently, T2 Snipefests do not entertain me unless it gets ruined by a cloaked interdictor, in which case it's hilarious. The problem here being that It takes a bit of time to get to 'dictors, and is quite a specialized role, so you have to be fortunate enough, in a fleet battle, to have an interdictor pilot who can also cloak if you want to have a chance at beating a Sniper Fleet. Don't give me crap about "It's a counter to blobbing", either. It's not. It's Blobbing 2.0
No matter how well you know what a person has done
And what he thought he was doing when he did it
And what he now thinks of what he did,
It is impossible to be certain of what he will do next. |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 22:57:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/06/2006 22:59:28
This is all I have to say...
If you're getting sniped, tell your covert ops pilot to do his job and warp in your ships right on top of the snipers. Between poor tracking and better short-range DPS, it should be a pretty quick massacre.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.24 22:58:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/06/2006 22:58:54
Yes, becuase they'll sit there for 15 mins while the covert creeps up on them. Right.
And if you do, then it'll be a pretty quick warp off to a safe.
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:01:00 -
[18]
Do you have any sense of tactics at all? Why would you warp in your fleet before the covert ops ship is in position? Why would you warp in the fleet without an interdictor or ten to keep them from safespotting?
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Do you have any sense of tactics at all? Why would you warp in your fleet before the covert ops ship is in position? Why would you warp in the fleet without an interdictor or ten to keep them from safespotting?
Interdictors won't do any good if they hit warp before the 'dictors are even able to launch bubbles.
New sig coming soonÖ
Tuxford's good for EVE. |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Do you have any sense of tactics at all? Why would you warp in your fleet before the covert ops ship is in position? Why would you warp in the fleet without an interdictor or ten to keep them from safespotting?
Interdictors won't do any good if they hit warp before the 'dictors are even able to launch bubbles.
Then the issue is lag, and the solution is better server support. Or if you're saying you can escape the bubble as long as you start warp before the bubble activates, that should be changed anyway.
Assuming the game is actually working as it should, unless the target is perfectly aligned and moving at full speed and the pilot has excellent reflexes, the interdictor should be able to do its job.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Do you have any sense of tactics at all? Why would you warp in your fleet before the covert ops ship is in position? Why would you warp in the fleet without an interdictor or ten to keep them from safespotting?
Interdictors won't do any good if they hit warp before the 'dictors are even able to launch bubbles.
Then the issue is lag, and the solution is better server support. Or if you're saying you can escape the bubble as long as you start warp before the bubble activates, that should be changed anyway.
Assuming the game is actually working as it should, unless the target is perfectly aligned and moving at full speed and the pilot has excellent reflexes, the interdictor should be able to do its job.
It's not lag, Interdictor warp disrupt probes don't affect warps if it is executed before dropping the bubble. So if you see someone uncloak at a gate, drop your bubble? Unaffected.
If your interdictor starts warping and drops a bubble, it isn't trapped in his own bubble, it just warps before it started warping before bubble got dropped.
Game mechanism, not lag.
Whine whine whine, sigs |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:14:00 -
[22]
It isn't the bubbles either. If the snipers are doing their job, they are aligned. If they are aligned, they can hit warp-out as soon as your ships come into the grid. They will be warping before your ships stop warping.
Don't assume it's just a matter of group a doing it's job, what if group b does theirs well, too? It's impossible to get alert snipers who know what they do in this game.
New sig coming soonÖ
Tuxford's good for EVE. |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Do you have any sense of tactics at all? Why would you warp in your fleet before the covert ops ship is in position? Why would you warp in the fleet without an interdictor or ten to keep them from safespotting?
Interdictors won't do any good if they hit warp before the 'dictors are even able to launch bubbles.
Then the issue is lag, and the solution is better server support. Or if you're saying you can escape the bubble as long as you start warp before the bubble activates, that should be changed anyway.
Assuming the game is actually working as it should, unless the target is perfectly aligned and moving at full speed and the pilot has excellent reflexes, the interdictor should be able to do its job.
It's not lag, Interdictor warp disrupt probes don't affect warps if it is executed before dropping the bubble. So if you see someone uncloak at a gate, drop your bubble? Unaffected.
If your interdictor starts warping and drops a bubble, it isn't trapped in his own bubble, it just warps before it started warping before bubble got dropped.
Game mechanism, not lag.
Is this intentional, or a bug? At least in my opinion, it should cut the warp unless they actually get out before the bubble is active.
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Vathar
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:35:00 -
[24]
It's extremely hard to catch a competent sniper fleet with a dictor+covert duo to help your fleet. It's even worse with a cloaked dictor, wouldn't even try to move a cloaked dictor 200km towards enemy fleet.
About availability, I seriously hope that every competent fleet around has a bunch of covert pilots and dictors pilots
now the problem about t2 LR ammo is that it restricts the usefulness of pilots too young to fit large T2 guns.
_
Originally by: Stamm
Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Masta Killa
<Stuff about ASCN>
Respectfully use the Corporations, Alliances and Factions forums for that crap. This forum is about ships and modules - not about their pilots.
Thank you.
Who you are has alot to say what you cry about.
If someone can't use huge gangs effectively against much fewer snipers then that party will logically cry about the other people being able to snipe.
That guy proved me right and so will you when you get permission to post anything other than arrogant, meaningless comments.
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Frakri Hogsto
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Posted - 2006.06.24 23:48:00 -
[26]
what is this tread about?....
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What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.25 00:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Masta Killa
<Stuff about ASCN>
Respectfully use the Corporations, Alliances and Factions forums for that crap. This forum is about ships and modules - not about their pilots.
Thank you.
Who you are has alot to say what you cry about.
If someone can't use huge gangs effectively against much fewer snipers then that party will logically cry about the other people being able to snipe.
That guy proved me right and so will you when you get permission to post anything other than arrogant, meaningless comments.
This is a forum for discussing ships, modules and game balance not for flaming your in-game enemies. He actually wants to see some more versatility in fleet fights and make short range ships viable. Seeing as Burn Eden love to use unusual and creative setups, surely you should be supporting instead of flaming?
Grow up.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.06.25 00:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Is this intentional, or a bug? At least in my opinion, it should cut the warp unless they actually get out before the bubble is active.
Dunno, anchorable warp bubbles have always worked this way too, but it didn't come up much. This is why some people do fit 20km disruptors on interdictors...
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
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Ivan Kirilenkov
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Posted - 2006.06.25 02:21:00 -
[29]
Thread cleaned for off-topic posts, and related replies. Stick to the topic and aim for the ball, not the man as they say :)
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.06.25 03:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Laboratus
Theres nothing wrong in the system at the moment except lack of player skill...
Acctually that is wrong with the system. Everyone who lacks skill can make up for it with ultra range and instant locking.
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Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2006.06.25 04:20:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/06/2006 04:20:55
Fine nerf the hell out of turret range. If you nerf the hell out of missiles, too.
But then again, missiles were just the last WotM. Turrets seem to be the current WotM.
Hmm. This game is becoming as bad as WOW. Glaring imbalances, absurd fixes, and even more absurd fixes that break the game even more. GG.
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Kurian thurizar
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Posted - 2006.06.25 04:44:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kurian thurizar on 25/06/2006 04:46:19
?!?!
double posted
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Audri Fisher
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Posted - 2006.06.25 04:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Prometheus Wrong
Edited by: Prometheus Wrong on 25/06/2006 01:00:09
YouÆve heard it before. You see the whining. It is justified. It is not just that T2 guns+ T2 ammo are overpowered due to the absurdly long ranges modern fleet combat occurs at, but the solidification as an absolute, the long trend towards pure Battleship fleets in fleet combat.
There is no tactical genius inherint in long range sniper fights. Having enough skill points to hang out at the edge of combat and lob Spike and Tremor where your opponent cannot shoot back isnÆt tactical superiority or discipline superiority, or organizational superiority: it is skill point superiority, and it denies everyone not trained in all the T2 sniper BS (Those of us in and near the 40+mil SP club tend to forget not everyone has been doing this as long as we have) skills a real place on the field. MoreoveràitÆs just gotten boring.
ItÆs been brought up before: I think it is a capital idea. Nerf Range like thereÆs no tomorrow. Nerf it so hard that fleet fights become fun again. Tux, I call on you to wield TomBÆs Nerfbat like Mjolnir and strike down the pure-bread (frost giant like) sniping BS that has, for too long, oppressed pilots longing to pod their enemies at ranges so close they can see the excrement trail freeze to their nether regions before they stop twitchinÆ.
<snip>
Then nerf to hell any ship/setup that can travel 50 km in the time that 1400 mm arty recycles. Nerf tracking disrupters, MWD's ECM, target dampners, NOS, drones ect. Then start whinning that Eagles can still ruin your "I win" short range gank setup, becuase you are to stupid to warp.
So, instead of optimal range bonuses, Make Caldari gunboats just like some other races, since we have a whole plethera of possible gun bonuses. Then lets remove all missle speed and flight time bonuses, gee I wonder what missle bonuses we can have now that won't make them obscenely overpowered? ( Combining rof and prescision bonuses is a VERY bad idea for small ships)
Next, lets make it so that you warp in at 100km from the gates, since all combat is fleet based, and hardley any is close range gate fights or belt fights.
In short go  your ideas
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xaioguai
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Posted - 2006.06.25 06:45:00 -
[34]
after days and hours of gang warp playing hide and seek in a tempest, I must agree things need to change. Fleet battle is just boring.
Warping around in a system for 4 hours hoping to get a nice position at the right timing isn't fun in my dictionary  especially both side use numbers of covert ops ship.
and as for someone suggesting to get a covert ops scout so can warp on top of enemy fleet.....dream on. chances are no one will stay in one position for long. All FC will just warp to SS and come back to another sniping position every few minutes. You just can't get there in time!!!
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.25 13:44:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Vathar
It's extremely hard to catch a competent sniper fleet with a dictor+covert duo to help your fleet. It's even worse with a cloaked dictor, wouldn't even try to move a cloaked dictor 200km towards enemy fleet.
About availability, I seriously hope that every competent fleet around has a bunch of covert pilots and dictors pilots
now the problem about t2 LR ammo is that it restricts the usefulness of pilots too young to fit large T2 guns.
Thats the whole point. If you have skilled pilots and a skilled FC, they should be able to stay alive by doing what is smart. This just is not so in close range combat as everyone and their cat can blast the living **** out of everyone with no predictability what so ever.
Originally by: Noriath
Acctually that is wrong with the system. Everyone who lacks skill can make up for it with ultra range and instant locking.
The long range fighting in Eve is dumbing down the game. There is nothing wrong with long range ships, but the fact that short range ships can't do anything to compete with them is just not even funny anymore.
Eve is really suffering from the fact that the mobility of a ship plays aboloutly no role in a larger fight, it's all about where you warp in and then start shooting, moving is pointless once it has started, since you can't keep people from warping out in those kind of extreme-range fights.
You just need an equal amount of skill to get those snipers stuck in a bubble. There is a limited amount of space and a limited amount of time. At some point they will make a mistake and get stuck in a bubble.
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