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[Ishtar] We Know It's Overpowered...Now What?

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Alyssa Haginen State War Academy Caldari State 35	Posted - 2014.07.08 16:39:00 - [1] - Quote It's obvious the Ishtar is far stronger then it's other racial equals. CCP has confirmed this just by adjusting it's point value for the upcoming alliance tournament. What makes it overpowered is it's ability to project 600dps over 70km. Instead of nerfing the Ishtar or sentry drones, why not boost the other three ships in a way that won't make them overpowered at close range. My idea including an ammo change for one ship: Zealot: Role Bonus: 50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Beam Lasers, 10% Damage Bonus to Medium Beam Lasers Eagle: Role Bonus: 30% Damage bonus to Medium Railguns Munnin: Role Bonus: 50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Artillery, 30% Damage bonus to Medium Artillery Ammo Change: (Sabot, Uranium: 15% more damage, 15% Optimal Range reduction) (Proton, Nuclear, Carbonized Lead: 35% more damage, 30% Optimal Range reduction) Two things this creates the need for would be, the need for a Strategic Cruiser re-balance, and a possible T2 Combat Battleship that is based around long range damage.
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 73	Posted - 2014.07.08 16:47:00 - [2] - Quote It would be more prudent to cut its CPU or PG a little seen as how its main weapon does not take either, or boost PG and CPU for the others to allow tougher fits.
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 189	Posted - 2014.07.08 16:52:00 - [3] - Quote You make the mistake of taking an out-off-game event as an evaluation of your ingame claim. Further more has dps alone no merit to balancing a ship. The Zealot is already the most powerful and prefered one for certain circumstances. And not every ship has to work the same in terms of applied dps, range and tank and then just copy paste it onto the factions with adjusted racial weapon systems. The Ishtar is good, no doubt and maybe easier to get into, but the biggest issues are counterd by play style, use of the role and up to the player. -1 so far Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Alyssa Haginen State War Academy Caldari State 35	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:06:00 - [4] - Quote Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: The Zealot is already the most powerful and prefered one for certain circumstances. Really? I find this hard to believe, maybe it was true a few years ago.
Zurin Arctus Trauma Ward 14	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:14:00 - [5] - Quote Show me on the doll where the sentries touched you. Ishtars aren't especially overpowered. You'd have to be completely oblivious to the prevailing meta to think they are. The reigning Ishtar PvP fit is extraordinarily weak under fire, being focused on outputting maximum DPS whilst kiting idiots and receiving huge reps from scimitars. Remove the logi from the equation and you'd quickly see how big a trade-off the gank Ishtar fit is.
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 189	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:21:00 - [6] - Quote Well, we had a few HAC discussions lately, as can be seen here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=355494 and after being lectured otherwise OP even conceded and changed his suggestion. And you could have joined in there. To find 'HAC' in the SF is quite easy Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Cherry Yeyo 6	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:25:00 - [7] - Quote Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: You make the mistake of taking an out-off-game event as an evaluation of your ingame claim. Further more has dps alone no merit to balancing a ship You dont have to look at the AT to know the Ishtar is OP. Anybody who lives in 0.0 or Lowsec knows the Ishtar gang is EVERYWHERE. All ishtars, all the time. I'm sure CCP has internals somewhere that shows them that everybody is flying ishtar gangs.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 238	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:27:00 - [8] - Quote Zurin Arctus wrote: Show me on the doll where the sentries touched you. Ishtars aren't especially overpowered. You'd have to be completely oblivious to the prevailing meta to think they are. The reigning Ishtar PvP fit is extraordinarily weak under fire, being focused on outputting maximum DPS whilst kiting idiots and receiving huge reps from scimitars. Remove the logi from the equation and you'd quickly see how big a trade-off the gank Ishtar fit is. You're crazy. The only things keeping Ishtars remotely in line are SP (it takes a lot of SP to max out an Ishtar) and cost (battleships are still a lot cheaper, even if they're pretty universally worse) Right now, if you're flying a non-Ishtar HAC, you're doing it wrong. The Ishtar is better than all of them at literally everything. Why would you ever use a Zealot? It's got literally half the range and damage. The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 933	Posted - 2014.07.08 17:38:00 - [9] - Quote POOOOOOOOWWWEEEEEER CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 605	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:01:00 - [10] - Quote Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: The Ishtar is good, no doubt and maybe easier to get into, but the biggest issues are counterd by play style, use of the role and up to the player. To get into the ishtar is by no means easier I think, not only do you need the hac skills but you also need pretty good drone skills to make it useful. As ever it should be pointed out that this means the ishtar is pretty much reliant on the only fully desctructable dps weapon system. I really can't agree with the OP that the ishtar is overpowered, it takes a great deal of training to get into it effectively and therefore the reward is a good ship if flown well.
Zurin Arctus Trauma Ward 14	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:21:00 - [11] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Zurin Arctus wrote: Show me on the doll where the sentries touched you. Ishtars aren't especially overpowered. You'd have to be completely oblivious to the prevailing meta to think they are. The reigning Ishtar PvP fit is extraordinarily weak under fire, being focused on outputting maximum DPS whilst kiting idiots and receiving huge reps from scimitars. Remove the logi from the equation and you'd quickly see how big a trade-off the gank Ishtar fit is. You're crazy. The only things keeping Ishtars remotely in line are SP (it takes a lot of SP to max out an Ishtar) and cost (battleships are still a lot cheaper, even if they're pretty universally worse) Right now, if you're flying a non-Ishtar HAC, you're doing it wrong. The Ishtar is better than all of them at literally everything. Why would you ever use a Zealot? It's got literally half the range and damage. The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well. A well-flown Vagabond or Deimos will positively annihilate an unsupported Ishtar. They have no answer to that kind of speed, DPS, and tank. A good ONI or SFI pilot would probably kill a solo Ishtar as well.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 7695	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:26:00 - [12] - Quote The other three are fine. When you have one thing that is powerful beyond all proper proportion, you hammer it down to the level of the other three. Personally I suggest that it have 25 bandwidth chopped off. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Zurin Arctus Trauma Ward 14	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:29:00 - [13] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The other three are fine. When you have one thing that is powerful beyond all proper proportion, you hammer it down to the level of the other three. Personally I suggest that it have 25 bandwidth chopped off. Right, let's nerf the bandwidth of the premier tk2 drone carrier. Do you have any ideas that aren't completely absurd?
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 7695	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:35:00 - [14] - Quote Zurin Arctus wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The other three are fine. When you have one thing that is powerful beyond all proper proportion, you hammer it down to the level of the other three. Personally I suggest that it have 25 bandwidth chopped off. Right, let's nerf the bandwidth of the premier tk2 drone carrier. Do you have any ideas that aren't completely absurd? Translation: "Don't touch my golden goose!" Yep, I do want to nerf it's drone abilities. The Ishtar is too powerful by half, and there really isn't a whole lot else about the ship that can be handily nerfed. The resist profile is fairly well set in stone, although I suppose you could bump up it's sig radius or strip away a couple of highslots. Although personally I don't think that any sub battleship size vessel should even be permitted to use Sentry drones. So that could be an avenue as well. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Linkxsc162534 Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs 83	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:39:00 - [15] - Quote Before i get into this, i dont find the ishtar as an op ship. Its just good in its role and can easily be blapped down if its stuck outside of its optimal engagement range (just like every other ship) Simple fix. Give it a penalty to sentry drone sig (boosted targeting systems fault or some crap for lore spin. Higher sig. Easier to lock and take damage. Mostly for the lock speed tho) That way an adequate lr boat can quickly lock and start taking its drones off the field. That would be a small change to start with that wouldnt be too game breaking.
Zurin Arctus Trauma Ward 14	Posted - 2014.07.08 18:40:00 - [16] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The Ishtar is too powerful by half [Citation needed]
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 613	Posted - 2014.07.08 19:08:00 - [17] - Quote The Ishtar is not OP. And get your dirty hands off of the Tracking Bonus on the Zealot!
Alyssa Haginen State War Academy Caldari State 35	Posted - 2014.07.08 19:37:00 - [18] - Quote The Ishtar does not take more skill training. It is interesting to see some of replies, some see the truth, others only care about the idea of a 'golden goose'. The Ishtar at one point was underpowered and CCP feels like they owe it a favor I guess. Sometimes I wonder about CCPs agenda being influenced by money, and not in a marketing way. I can fly the Ishtar, the problem is I can't fly any other HAC. The other HAC's all have at least 50% less damage at ranges compared to the Ishtars sentry drones. The gap between the Ishtars and the other racial equals damage/range potential is huge. Ishtars also have strong shield tanks or armor tanks compared to their racial equals, this part is not that unbalanced. Why are people in denial?
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 103	Posted - 2014.07.08 20:56:00 - [19] - Quote I log into the Ishtar Online public forums and I'm greeted by "ishtar isn't OP" good start to the day! Anyway I'm sure it only needs a little nerf, not a gutting. Doctrines tend to magnify the natural strengths of a fit, the ship is probably not as OP as it might seem to you when you're being shot by a gang of them. But it still needs SOME nerf.
Quinn Corvez Probe Patrol Ixtab. 239	Posted - 2014.07.08 22:26:00 - [20] - Quote Sentries and drone assist are what makes the Ishtar OP. Fix those not the ship.
Sigras Conglomo 817	Posted - 2014.07.08 22:32:00 - [21] - Quote Sure, the Ishtar is OP when your opponent is limited to <= 12 people and locked into a 250 km arena which they cannot leave with invulnerable micro jump beacons strategically placed around the arena... Call me the next time that happens on TQ
MagicToes Dr Pepper Sales Team 1	Posted - 2014.07.08 22:51:00 - [22] - Quote Xequecal wrote: The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well. No.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 238	Posted - 2014.07.09 00:35:00 - [23] - Quote MagicToes wrote: Xequecal wrote: The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well. No. When brawling, it does more raw DPS than a 3-MFS Deimos with neutrons and facftion antimatter, these drones have five times the tracking of the neutrons, and of course they're not limited to a 2km optimal range. It does 600 DPS at 130km with Wardens, that's more DPS than any battleship (let alone any cruiser) at that range with ten times the tracking. It has the unique ability to drop sentry drones and burn away from them, anyone chasing you will get massacred by them as soon as the range opens a little bit. Oh, and it can do all three of these things on the same fitting.
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 191	Posted - 2014.07.09 00:50:00 - [24] - Quote Hmm, really weird, must have a bug cause one cruiser I have has the same and my BS even more. Except maybe the tracking, but at 130km range, tracking isn't really an issue. But I give you some leeway with the Daimos, it could get some boost and I think I heard it will. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Goochan derp Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:04:00 - [25] - Quote just say no to power creep
God's Apples The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 382	Posted - 2014.07.09 02:26:00 - [26] - Quote If you take away its ability to use sentries all you're left with is a watered down gila.
MagicToes Dr Pepper Sales Team 1	Posted - 2014.07.09 02:48:00 - [27] - Quote Xequecal wrote: MagicToes wrote: Xequecal wrote: The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well. No. When brawling, it does more raw DPS than a 3-MFS Deimos with neutrons and facftion antimatter, these drones have five times the tracking of the neutrons, and of course they're not limited to a 2km optimal range. It does 600 DPS at 130km with Wardens, that's more DPS than any battleship (let alone any cruiser) at that range with ten times the tracking. It has the unique ability to drop sentry drones and burn away from them, anyone chasing you will get massacred by them as soon as the range opens a little bit. Oh, and it can do all three of these things on the same fitting. Lol, no. I'm sorry but pure DPS numbers alone do not make a ship a 'better brawler' it's not even the best HAC at brawling let alone ANY ship. Sacrileges for example are more than capable of murdering Ishtars at close range. And in order to get those 3 damage mods on the Ishtar you have to fill all the tank in the mids, meaning little utility for ewar/counter ewar. Neither is it true that no battleship cannot out DPS an Ishtar at 130km, straight off the bat I'll name cruise phoon's as an obvious candidate that can. Ishtar's also can't shoot at targets 130km away either because assuming the standard shield fit you're referring to can't even lock that far. Max booster and max skills is only a 110km targeting range, even assuming max skills and being able to lock that far, the drone control range doesn't even go as far as 130km. FWIW Even your statement about the 3 DDA Ishtar out DPS'ing a 3MFS Deimos with Neutrons and CN antimatter is wrong.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 238	Posted - 2014.07.09 02:49:00 - [28] - Quote Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: Hmm, really weird, must have a bug cause one cruiser I have has the same and my BS even more. Except maybe the tracking, but at 130km range, tracking isn't really an issue. And don't forget the Eos which can use a MMJD to get into instant range ... yeah, Ishtar is the one and only But I give you some leeway with the Daimos, it could get some boost and I think I heard it will. Which other cruiser does 600 DPS at 130km? This doesn't exist. Technically you can get 600 DPS from something like a Tachyon abaddon with 3 heat sinks, but that's not a real fit.
Kynric Sky Fighters 102	Posted - 2014.07.09 03:11:00 - [29] - Quote The hull seems mostly fine, although it is perhaps a tiny bit faster than ideal. I do think ishtar sentry drones are bit more effective at hitting small ships than I would like. Weakening the ship against frigates would bring it nicely into line imo.
Seolfor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 61	Posted - 2014.07.09 05:40:00 - [30] - Quote Disillusioned baddies abound, what to say, we're on the Eve-O forums. If you can't see why the Ishtar is op, from above posts, especially Xeq, then very little to add. Not that CCP need to be told this, they recognize it and are rebalancing it (as officially confirmed by Rise that next in line is a HAC and BS re-balance). From a non-null perspective, the Ishtar is out of control because it delivers an unmatched combination and flexibility that no other single ship bar T3s can even remotely match. The omnipresent shield Ishtar across lowsec, in full PvP fit: - One of the fastest cruisers, allowing it to kite anything slower than 2500 m/s especially with MG snakes and links, which most low sec pilots run with. Is it the fastest? No. Can other Cruisers catch it? Yes. Ishtar is balanced. - with Sentries, it has a cap-free, damage selectable, by far the best tracking point range weapon system, immune to TDs (you can carry a set of 2 dmg type sentries along with a full flight of light AND a brawling-set of Gecko+Med+Small). Oh I forgot to mention, damage between 500-600 at 30km+ Is there any other HAC/cruiser, hell any subcap, that can deliver the same? Yes, ofcourse other Sentry users, and maybe some gank fit BS, but with supremely inferior tracking or major application/sig issues. Ishtar is balanced. - With Full Ogres or an optimized 2Gecko-2Med-1small, you deliver near 800 dps. Again, cap free, by far the best tracking, TD immune (Ogres will track an ABing ScyFi even without web). Can other sub-caps deliver 800+ scram range dps? Yes, ofcourse, mostly drone + blaster boats. Ishtar is balanced. - T2 resists and a near 50k EHP while sporting a point AND web (Fed navy will allow defensive webbing to 23ish km). We all know many other ships can have much more 50k ehp, even when kiting. Ishtar is balanced. - Even after all the above AND adding a DLA II too the high, with so much fitting to spare you will have 2-3 MED Neuts which will annihilate the cap of anything that catches you or you choose to brawl. Surely a legion, Ashimmu, Curse can neut harder. Ishtar is balanced. ALL THE ABOVE IN THE ONE SHIP - ONE PvP FIT. Which other ship can deliver this package? No wonder with the one ship, you can run combat sites, PvP, gank, FW etc. Apart from a pimped Tengu, kindly present alternatives. I suspect the closest competitors will be other drone boats like Stratios, Gila, VNI. Even they won't deliver the above. Ishtar is balanced?

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