Which other cruiser does 600 DPS at 130km? This doesn't exist.

Technically you can get 600 DPS from something like a Tachyon abaddon with 3 heat sinks, but that's not a real fit.

The Ishtar does not have 600 DPS at 130 km. It's around 560. And the application is lackluster, because Warden cannot track. And if a target is 130 km away, you have combat probes to warp on top of the Ishtars and murder them.

You can also simply orbit the drone ball and not even the tracking of the Gardes means anything. With a couple of well placed bomb runs, you can also simply wipe off the Ishtar's main damage source. You only have so many sets of Sentries or mobile drones, which can all be shot and destroyed, while the Ishtar is kept in place with a scram and web. The Ishtar EHP with a pure DPS fit (3 DDA, Nano, DCU) is well below 40k, any other HAC reaches at least 60k, and armor Isthars don't even reach 600 DPS with Gardes. You can also simply burn out of the range of the Sentries; they are stationary whereas your turrets and launchers aren't. Isthars need to recollect their drones, which makes them susceptible to bomb runs as well as ships warping onto them and pinning them down. Ishtars cannot simply leave the field without recollecting their drones, otherwise they sacrifice DPS or replacement drones.

So, where again is the Ishtar OP?

I log into the Ishtar Online public forums and I'm greeted by "ishtar isn't OP" good start to the day!

1. Ishtars can insert more drones from cargo via mobile depot or carrier, they are not limited to 3 flights. Bomb runs are rather useless.

2. There is no way you can get under the tracking of Ogres in a cruiser. Even Gardes require you to be pretty damn close to them for that to work.

3. There's nothing stopping you from abandoning drones and launching more drones.

Mobile Depots are shot into RF in an instant, if launched on grid. Or the Ishtar killed if it stops on the Depot to restock.

You simply web and kill Ogres. You can orbit Garde spheres with ABs and thus severely hurt their tracking.

You can only abandon so many drone sets and you cannot determine which drones you reconnect to. Abandoning and relaunching also removes the Damage from the field for a bit.



Which last post do you refer to?

They can have all the tracking they want: at the end of the day they are not capable of tracking a fast ship or an AB'ing ship.

You can warp to the prober behind/further away from the Ishtar ball.

I'm referring to the one you made before the quoted one.

By your logic, no one can snipe in Eve, because apparently the targets can't be tracked and its trivial to just warp right to them. I guess we should just fit blasters to everything, because railguns/beam lasers/artillery are all useless. Sentry drones out track other medium weapons substantially, if they can't track then nothing can.

Also, heavy drones are apparently useless as well, because you can just "web and kill them."

The Ishtar is not OP.

And get your dirty hands off of the Tracking Bonus on the Zealot!

It's obvious the Ishtar is far stronger then it's other racial equals. CCP has confirmed this just by adjusting it's point value for the upcoming alliance tournament. What makes it overpowered is it's ability to project 600dps over 70km. Instead of nerfing the Ishtar or sentry drones, why not boost the other three ships in a way that won't make them overpowered at close range.

---

My idea including an ammo change for one ship:

Zealot:

Role Bonus:
50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Beam Lasers, 10% Damage Bonus to Medium Beam Lasers


Eagle:

Role Bonus:
30% Damage bonus to Medium Railguns

Munnin:

Role Bonus:
50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Artillery, 30% Damage bonus to Medium Artillery

Ammo Change:
(Sabot, Uranium: 15% more damage, 15% Optimal Range reduction)
(Proton, Nuclear, Carbonized Lead: 35% more damage, 30% Optimal Range reduction)

---

Two things this creates the need for would be, the need for a Strategic Cruiser re-balance, and a possible T2 Combat Battleship that is based around long range damage.

Meanwhile, I log in and see an ishtar is OP thread that doesn't actually have any hard numbers or even anecdotal evidence in the original post that just expects me to believe the ishtar is OP without a single word of substantiated argument. Next the big kicker for me is that I check the corps of the people arguing the original post's point and they're all NPC alts(one even went so far as to try and hide it) that I can't get even the slightest idea of their play experience relating to ishtars and whether or not they're just nullbears whining about the current FOTM ship.

*Kaerakh is not impressed.*

No, we need less cruisers with battleship DPS, not more.

I would rather say we need more battleships with battleship dps.. and EHP ... that means a lot of battleships need a boost (tempest cough cough.... 2 damage bonuses and less dps than a hac.. )

Disillusioned baddies abound, what to say, we're on the Eve-O forums. If you can't see why the Ishtar is op, from above posts, especially Xeq, then very little to add.

Not that CCP need to be told this, they recognize it and are rebalancing it (as officially confirmed by Rise that next in line is a HAC and BS re-balance).

From a non-null perspective, the Ishtar is out of control because it delivers an unmatched combination and flexibility that no other single ship bar T3s can even remotely match.

The omnipresent shield Ishtar across lowsec, in full PvP fit:

- One of the fastest cruisers, allowing it to kite anything slower than 2500 m/s especially with MG snakes and links, which most low sec pilots run with. Is it the fastest? No. Can other Cruisers catch it? Yes. Ishtar is balanced.

- with Sentries, it has a cap-free, damage selectable, by far the best tracking point range weapon system, immune to TDs (you can carry a set of 2 dmg type sentries along with a full flight of light AND a brawling-set of Gecko+Med+Small). Oh I forgot to mention, damage between 500-600 at 30km+ Is there any other HAC/cruiser, hell any subcap, that can deliver the same? Yes, ofcourse other Sentry users, and maybe some gank fit BS, but with supremely inferior tracking or major application/sig issues. Ishtar is balanced.

- With Full Ogres or an optimized 2Gecko-2Med-1small, you deliver near 800 dps. Again, cap free, by far the best tracking, TD immune (Ogres will track an ABing ScyFi even without web). Can other sub-caps deliver 800+ scram range dps? Yes, ofcourse, mostly drone + blaster boats. Ishtar is balanced.

- T2 resists and a near 50k EHP while sporting a point AND web (Fed navy will allow defensive webbing to 23ish km). We all know many other ships can have much more 50k ehp, even when kiting. Ishtar is balanced.

- Even after all the above AND adding a DLA II too the high, with so much fitting to spare you will have 2-3 MED Neuts which will annihilate the cap of anything that catches you or you choose to brawl. Surely a legion, Ashimmu, Curse can neut harder. Ishtar is balanced.

ALL THE ABOVE IN THE ONE SHIP - ONE PvP FIT. Which other ship can deliver this package?

No wonder with the one ship, you can run combat sites, PvP, gank, FW etc. Apart from a pimped Tengu, kindly present alternatives. I suspect the closest competitors will be other drone boats like Stratios, Gila, VNI. Even they won't deliver the above.

Ishtar is balanced?

@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.

I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.

I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.

.. So the natural solution is to do something about the damage output or range. Attacking at 80km is no big deal, if it did a much more typical 250-300 dps at that range. 600 dps also isn't an issue, if it can only apply it at short range against well tackled targets (thinking medium drones, like the Gila).

The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.

The Sacrilege on the other hand is a pwnmobile. That thing can sustain a 800 dps active tank for like five minutes, while putting out 450 itself at close range, or 375 out to 40 km, while carrying a medium neut. There is not a damn thing wrong with that ship aside from it's hilariously high skill requirements.

Now granted it's pretty much the ONLY ship I can recommend HAMs for that isn't a T3 (which to me, means that the entire Medium class of missiles needs reworked. But then look what they did to capital missiles, ugh) but that's besides the point. The Sacrilege is a fine ship.

The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.

The old RLM Cerb was almost as bad as the Ishtar, to be honest. Before the RLM fitting nerf you could run it with dual XLASBs, now that was broken.