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Lilly The Pink
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.07.10 19:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seems to me the FW guys have way more fun in their battles to take systems then the nullsec players do.
With this in mind would it not be a good idea to have a similar capture mechanism for nullsec war - where different sized plexes have to be fought over before any big battle for the I-Hub?
It would be a lot harder for these giant coalitions to hold on to territory if any random small band of pilots can start contesting sites in a system - with empires spread over a vast area they would find it harder to hold onto all their sov because their renters would have to help defend systems instead of just printing isk for their masters.
Even if they managed to blob the battles for the i-hubs against smaller opponents just the effort needed to constantly defensive plex could break up these empires into smaller alliances willing to defend their turf on a regular basis as would be needed.
I don't know enough about nullsec to know if this would actually be viable but even renters would probably enjoy skirmishing in t1 frigs and cruisers in their home systems and it might actually draw more of the 'bears' into enjoyable PvP instead of just the occasional giant fleet where they just press f1 all night. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
1784
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 19:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
The gated plexes allow players to control what they face in combat. This is great for the small gang / solo aspect of FW lowsec. However I think that null sec inhabitants would scream 'sandbox' over any change in this direction. It would not be a good fit. The one aspect of FW that I wish they could bottle and ship to null is how difficult it is to project power in FW. Several hundred pilots can control only a handful of systems at best. You live there or you lose it. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
316
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 19:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
The control part is partly due to the fact that there's content for solo / small gangs that impacts system control. If you're not on the ball, all of the sudden you're looking at huge hits to your system control.
Implementing small scale objectives in nullsec, that can't be supercap blapped / N+1 blobbed to cause an instant system flip is an interesting problem, but hell if I know how to implement it. Gated complexes make sense for FW, given the whole empire / militia NPC part, but I doubt it does the same for nullsec. |
Altaen
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
116
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Posted - 2014.07.10 20:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:The control part is partly due to the fact that there's content for solo / small gangs that impacts system control. If you're not on the ball, all of the sudden you're looking at huge hits to your system control.
Implementing small scale objectives in nullsec, that can't be supercap blapped / N+1 blobbed to cause an instant system flip is an interesting problem, but hell if I know how to implement it. Gated complexes make sense for FW, given the whole empire / militia NPC part, but I doubt it does the same for nullsec.
Some sort of method for small gangs to be able to reasonably assault/hack system upgrades/station services/bounty payouts/refinery outputs, etc could very well accomplish this.
It would be reasonable that there could be be some sort of deadspace zones to house some of these services.
Local spam similar to the ESS to alert the locals that their **** is getting stolen/sabotaged might motivate some smaller scale homeland defense fights. |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Repeat 0ffenders
249
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Posted - 2014.07.10 20:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Problems of scale are solved with distributed solutions.
Time Dilation is what I've heard most of my null-bros complain about the most. Big fights are cool up until it takes an hour to leave system or 5 minutes to recall drones.
Time Dilation is a response to concentration of force. Faction War Low has rules that allow much smaller amounts of player damage to make a system change hands. Timers that require all hands on deck at once are exchanged for multiple venues of smaller victories with the possibility of a larger fight occurring to put a small tower into hull.
Change the goalposts in null to facilitate gameplay that Tranquility can handle and I bet you'll see more people enjoying themselves.
The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
257
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 20:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lilly The Pink wrote:Seems to me the FW guys have way more fun in their battles to take systems then the nullsec players do.
With this in mind would it not be a good idea to have a similar capture mechanism for nullsec war - where different sized plexes have to be fought over before any big battle for the I-Hub?
There is no reward for doing plexses in null (as there is no NPC faction to fight for). So you would just add quite unrewarding grind for null sec people by copy-pasting FW directly and as such it would not be a good idea.
With some modifications - dunno - perhaps. I would be a bit careful with gate restrictions as null is sort of capital heavy. Those who want to do stuff with only frigates have already plenty of FW to poke at where stakes are somewhat lover than in sov null sec.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated
Executive Outcomes
281
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Posted - 2014.07.10 21:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
the very first line is sheer opinion, and not a well researched one at that.
First of all, FW 'war' is a matter of PvE. It is accomplished by PvE, and often to the exclusion of PvP judging by the number of stabbed plex runners.
There is nothing in FW that even comes close to the scale of combat in null sec. Even meeting engagements we find ourselves in run over a hundred people shooting at each other.
We take small, new FC, or cheap T1 frig fleets to FW space mostly to be disappointed until we tangle with pirate players. You can spend days in FW space and not see anything but small, kitchen sink fleets farting around. When just my small alliance has a 'strat op', we count on at least 50 in fleet...every time.
The two are completely different types of content, and whichever you think is better is purely a matter of opinion. Judging by the fact that every single battle big enough to make headlines outside of Eve has come from Sov Null wars and certainly not FW, the popularity of sov null wars dwarfs FW. Clearly more people are enjoying sov null warfare than FW plexing for a few LP points.
Sov null has the resources to support empires that rival the power of any NPC empire in the game.
Remember, FW is where sov alliances go when they lose their sov, not really the other way 'round. |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
200
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 21:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:Remember, FW is where sov alliances go when they lose their sov, not really the other way 'round.
They come here to earn money. They get stomped badly PvP wise.
Honestly, I posted this suggestion in the F&I thread about null-sec.
There needs to be multiple smaller objectives that can be handled by smaller roams rather than one pre-determined timer that everybody blobs to.
In addition, with literally no way to get PvP/do objectives other than in a large fleet (you would be too big and get hotdropped or too small and just be ineffective), there's no reason to do fleets with small numbers. |
Lun Garemoko
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.07.10 21:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tell me about all these ongoing sov wars. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
158
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Null has a lot of players dedicated to it and it is completely open - aside from time dilation, what other negative is there with large fleet battles?
The two are so completely different that it ADDS gameplay options, which is always a great idea. |
Josclyn Verreuil
Justified Chaos
12
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Posted - 2014.07.11 01:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:the very first line is sheer opinion, and not a well researched one at that. First of all, FW 'war' is a matter of PvE. It is accomplished by PvE, and often to the exclusion of PvP judging by the number of stabbed plex runners. There is nothing in FW that even comes close to the scale of combat in null sec. Even meeting engagements we find ourselves in run over a hundred people shooting at each other. We take small, new FC, or cheap T1 frig fleets to FW space mostly to be disappointed until we tangle with pirate players. You can spend days in FW space and not see anything but small, kitchen sink fleets farting around. When just my small alliance has a 'strat op', we count on at least 50 in fleet...every time. The two are completely different types of content, and whichever you think is better is purely a matter of opinion. Judging by the fact that every single battle big enough to make headlines outside of Eve has come from Sov Null wars and certainly not FW, the popularity of sov null wars dwarfs FW. Clearly more people are enjoying sov null warfare than FW plexing for a few LP points. Sov null has the resources to support empires that rival the power of any NPC empire in the game. Remember, FW is where sov alliances go when they lose their sov, not really the other way 'round.
FW space has regularly dwarfed sov-null in terms of ships destroyed and PvP activity over the last couple years. Look at your map ships destroyed on any given day, and 95% of the time the biggest big red blobs are in FW space. The reason Sov Null battles make headlines is just the ships involved (Read: Titans), not the leet-pvp activity.
Just look at Huola over the last few days, and tell me more about how FW is all about PvE.\
Edit: To be more constructive, there are ways to combine the best of both worlds. Null fights end up in massive BS fleets and capital escalations mostly because the alliances/coalitions can support that with their income and SRP programs (notably, the vast majority of FW groups pvp out of our own pockets, which is why you won't see us flying the blingy stuff all the time).
I'm certain that there are ways to preserve the "epicness" of large scale high-end fleet fights in null while also designing some sort of de-centralized sov system more akin to the FW methods, something that requires regular occupancy to hold a tight grip on. Of course, this may require coalitions to adjust their income sources back to traditional methods (moon goo, high end sites, etc) and away from "renter" space, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. And you'd still have opportunities for huge fights over the r64s. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
17
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Posted - 2014.07.11 06:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
current game mechanics in FW are good as a conflict drivers....means Plexes are good for solo to small to even mid-size battles.
Plexes give:
a) a point where to fight (somewhere in that big system my enenmy is, most likely hes at the plex...)
b) a reason to fight (LP or sometimes sov)
c) a semi controlled/"arena style" point of fight (Dscan/gate)
thats why it works so well, its a (nearly the only) conflict driver in LOwSex. POCOs are a little bit like that....
For a solo/small gankers like me, there is just no incentive to go to 0.0 cause i dont have a) + b) there, also c) is/maybe a problem as well, at least for small fleets/not so much the solo guy.
Currently 0.0 from my outside perspective is about large + boring (cause TIDI) fleet fights and was about map cvontrol on a strategic perspective (but that has ended with the blue donut it seems^^) - not my taste....but i do want have many options in a game....so it shld stay that way i say.
0.0 need some more conflict drivers it seems....something to do for a clever game mechanics developer... |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
31
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Posted - 2014.07.11 08:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:the very first line is sheer opinion, and not a well researched one at that. First of all, FW 'war' is a matter of PvE. It is accomplished by PvE, and often to the exclusion of PvP judging by the number of stabbed plex runners. There is nothing in FW that even comes close to the scale of combat in null sec. Even meeting engagements we find ourselves in run over a hundred people shooting at each other. We take small, new FC, or cheap T1 frig fleets to FW space mostly to be disappointed until we tangle with pirate players. You can spend days in FW space and not see anything but small, kitchen sink fleets farting around. When just my small alliance has a 'strat op', we count on at least 50 in fleet...every time. The two are completely different types of content, and whichever you think is better is purely a matter of opinion. Judging by the fact that every single battle big enough to make headlines outside of Eve has come from Sov Null wars and certainly not FW, the popularity of sov null wars dwarfs FW. Clearly more people are enjoying sov null warfare than FW plexing for a few LP points. Sov null has the resources to support empires that rival the power of any NPC empire in the game. Remember, FW is where sov alliances go when they lose their sov, not really the other way 'round.
spoken like a true "PVP Elite" loooooooooooool.
Just Add Water |
Rahelis
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
79
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 08:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
FW mechanics in null sex would destroy all big player coalition within one month - noone can control the amount of empty null sex systems - it would need 5 players to take a system in one week. All "power blocks" would crumble - they would have to fight for theirs systems. Titan bridges would have no effect any more . . .
Null sex is a system driven by fear and greed.
All nullbears would unsub or go to FW space to make a living. CCP would have to cut their income in half and die.
So that will never happen.
CCP has to make null sex the **** content ppl want it to be - small groups of 100-200 Players can dominante all of null sex.
FW is clearly the best content in Eve - we have constant combat nullbear can only dream of.
FW is a system driven by pride and devotion.
Nullbears come to FW space to farm isk - we in FW space have so much isk, that we do not care to waste 100 ships in a small campaign. We burn our ships in fighting crazy odds when we are bored.
Nullbears come to FW space to fight and get owned. They are so bad at pvp - it is boring the fight them. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2304
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 08:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Regardless that i find the idea itself a verry bad idea , FW is not nullsov and vice versa as such what works in playground 1 will not work in playground 2 as it has different playtoys , what i find the most fun of this type of thread and what we'll see mostly here is how two sides like to fall back on generalised statements.Mostly being that nullbears don't pvp and if they do can't do **** without a blob and that the only thing fw pilots can do is fly around in a kessie preferably stabbed to the roof .
At times i do wonder how many people in eve actually do change their playground often enough to have experienced more then 'their side' of the game.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Korhaka Mirunas
Armed Warriors On Line
33
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Posted - 2014.07.11 09:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
How about a mix of both game machanics? To capture the system in 0.0 it would be the same as it is now, but an added option for small groups would be to run plexes in the system to deal damage to the system upgrades, or perhaps weaken the Ihub. Although it wouldnt allow them to take the system, small gangs could hurt the system.
I should mention that I have little experience in 0.0, so just throwing the idea out there to see if the 0.0 guys like the idea or not.
We need T3 Shuttles!!-áhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiR5Q72kT1U |
Baali Tekitsu
Klondike War Industry
Ev0ke
629
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 09:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
flakeys wrote:
At times i do wonder how many people in eve actually do change their playground often enough to have experienced more then 'their side' of the game.
So far I have experienced all parts of the game and came to enjoy NPC 00 space and roaming sov 00 the most. FW combat is mostly limited by the fact that one party has a massive advantage by being able to set the rules of engagement. In 00sec you will also see much less link alts being used (besides in Curse).
Transferring the FW system to 00sec therefor wouldnt work because of the massive advantage you gain by being in the plex first.
RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
915
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 10:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Some aspects of the plexes could be included in null-sov war, but the big shin-digs should remain as the main option. Truly is a marvellous thing to be able to engage a foe without having to suffer the ticks that comes from the hotdrop-a-clock paradigm.
Example: Solar PoWAR!
Gated and size restricted plexes (Solar Monitoring Outposts) spawn at the sun, control and/or completion of said plexes causes a solar flare that decreases EHP (either by way of resists or HP) of all man made structures in system except stations as they are presumed to be fat enough to be properly shielded.
Use it to speed up clearing hostile SBU's, take down a POS or make the iHub slightly more tender. Not a necessity for either attacker or defender but an option to make the various grinds just a little less of a bore/chore at the risk of enemy exploiting it and suddenly switching from defending SBUs to smashing POSs or the like. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
413
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 15:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
This would not be implemented solely because it would shake up the current nullsec power blocs too much. They would actually have to get out there and work to keep their space, and hence would not be able to a) rent space effectively, b) rat effectively, c) mine in peace, and d) set the engagements so it works in their favor. To be honest I can't blame them, the profits out in null really aren't all they are hyped up to believe. Adding such a mechanic would skew the risk versus reward balance to: too much risk for not that much reward. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
239
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 16:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
We got asked in null last night after violencing some internet spaceships, "Why are militia players pirating?" I just about died in laughter.
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos
50
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 17:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
We shouldn't be known as just "militia." I do think privateers defines us better, we are just paid pirates.  |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1317
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 18:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
I like faction warfare much more than sov warfare as well. But I think its better to keep them different, because many people prefer null sec.
Even in Huola both sides might get about 120 pilots in destroyers. Considering the numbers of players that show up for null sec war events, that is not really proof that most players prefer fw to null sec sov.
I thnk I that fw is better, but if anything I hope they make fw less like null sec. IMO to the extent fw is seen as" junior null sec" it will suffer.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
205
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 18:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
TBH, the only thing NS needs from FW is that small groups of players need a way to fight a bigger entity.
Which is currently impossible w/ hotdrops & jumpbridges & timers.
|
Rahelis
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 19:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Null sec suffers mostly from titan bridges and jump freigthers.
Without that null empire would fall down overnight.
Adding more content to null sov will destory the EVE null sex player base - they want it the way they have it - live in empty systems that are safer than high sec. Rat and mine untill dawn. That is what makes them happy. I want to fight.
That does not make me better - we could as easily split EVE into two parts and move all nullbears to the chinese server of eternal peace.
You see the null sex mentallity on the freqeuncy nullbears complain about cloaks. Nullbear use local as a protection from the evils of space.
The fun with FW space is that you have to fight in all sorts of ships - normally cross skilled in all 4 races - using every ship in the game.
Titan bridges deny us a big part of that (BC and BS and Cap) - blame CCP for that. They ruin their own income this way.
You can not compare the huola campaign we started with null sex battles - we have to make split second decisons on the go. Null bears never need that.
The huola campagin saw many ppl logging in just for the batlle so far - being day V.
CCP should pay us for the effort . . . . |
Perkin Warbeck
Black Watch Guard
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 22:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think there are a couple of reasons why the OPs idea is a bad one.
First, FW sovereignty is utterly boring. You think null sovereignty mechanics are bad, try sitting in your home system for two hours every night deplexing it down without getting a single fight so you don't lose the system. Then do that every day for a year. That was my memory of FW even though I had many great fights and met some amazing people. Many FW corps no longer live in the warzone and deplexing against farmers is the major reason why. Null seccers don't have the option to base outside their home region. Yes, Huola and Arzad are fight fests but they are the exception rather than the rule. As in null those exceptions are driven by an attack on the remaining 'home' systems. A more accurate representation of the norm of FW is probably Tannaken or Anka. Put it simply, on average I get more fights in null than I ever did in FW. It just depends which part of null you live in.
Second, plexes restrict fight sizes and ship types. Just like FW now you would rarely see large battleship fights or escalation into caps as mobility to move across the warzone and the ability to enter all plexes is key. Many players like fighting in big fleets in big ships. It's a different play style that should be encouraged. Plexes also allow the defender to dictate the engagement range of the fight and the gate allows an both sides to see your fleet comp before fighting. Most fleets will just blue ball each other to be honest.
There are problems with the blue donut but as the recent fighting in Provi showed, null can just as exciting and just as vibrant as FW. CCP does need to introduce more drivers for conflict in null but an FW mechanic isn't it. |
Zazu Prota
Love Squad
Pasta Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 01:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
No because I'm scared of those super elite FW pilots taking my space  |
SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos
52
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 02:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fear the Gallente blue donut. |
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