| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Wrayeth
   |
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:00:00 -
[1]
This is just a quick request to the devs to remove the velocity penalty from Hail. Short range ammo should not have a velocity penalty applied; if you feel it should, then Void should also receive a velocity penalty for balance purposes.
Thanks.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:05:00 -
[2]
Or you could fix the underlying issues with T2 amo... (starting with "more damage than T1")
|
HippoKing
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:05:00 -
[3]
/signed.
I'd give it a decent sized cap penalty, and lose the speed bork. Would be much more balanced IMO.
|
HippoKing
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:08:00 -
[4]
The close range high damage ammos are some of the least broken t2 ammos IMO.
The increased range close-range ones with no penalty are slightly more of an issue, the high damage long range ones are OK.
The most broken in my opinion is the ultra-long range ones by a long shot
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:09:00 -
[5]
Once again /signed
If you're not going to change the ethos of T2 ammo, please make all of them equally as usable as each other. Give Conflag and Null (could be void, which ever one does omfg damage) a speed penalty, or remove the one from Hail.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:25:00 -
[6]
yes and no!
speed hit has to go, but something else has to come in!
cap recharge is no penalty at all on a ship that injects and noses for cap!
perhaps loose the recharge and speed for a half in falloff!
atm void hits galante with cap use tracking AND optimal. the cap penalty is on the guns unlike your one which is on the ship, having it on the ship isnt any nerf at all tbh
imo something like. -50% tracking, -50% falloff would be fair!!
or -50% tracking and 20 cap per gun per shot for large AC
but you definitly cant just remove velocity penalty without adding anything!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
madaluap
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:28:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Sarmaul
Once again /signed
If you're not going to change the ethos of T2 ammo, please make all of them equally as usable as each other. Give Conflag and Null (could be void, which ever one does omfg damage) a speed penalty, or remove the one from Hail.
ooooh  thats mean, stay away from the Null charge...
_________________________________________________
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:30:00 -
[8]
Most ships inject and nos. What you seem to forget is that hail has 2 penalties that effect the ship at all times the ammo is loaded, while conflag and void only get their ship-effecting penalty (increased cap use) when the guns are firing.
If the speed and cap recharge penalties only came into play when you activated the guns I wouldn't have a problem with it, but getting the penalties just for having them loaded is a bit daft. There are other ammos (the long ranged ones) that suffer this too and it also needs to be changed.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:31:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 29/06/2006 22:36:08
Originally by: Gronsak
yes and no!
speed hit has to go, but something else has to come in!
cap recharge is no penalty at all on a ship that injects and noses for cap!
perhaps loose the recharge and speed for a half in falloff!
atm void hits galante with cap use tracking AND optimal. the cap penalty is on the guns unlike your one which is on the ship, having it on the ship isnt any nerf at all tbh
imo something like. -50% tracking, -50% falloff would be fair!!
or -50% tracking and 20 cap per gun per shot for large AC
but you definitly cant just remove velocity penalty without adding anything!
Um...you are aware that Hail has some of those penalties already, right? Cap recharge (5% per gun), tracking (halved), and velocity (10% per gun)?
Oh, and a 50% falloff penalty would be harsh, considering that Void only has a 15% optimal penalty above and beyond Antimatter. A 15% falloff penalty for Hail would be fine to replace the velocity penalty.
In any case, it seems to me that you're trying to make autocannons with Hail exactly like blasters with Void...except for crap damage, comparatively (in other words, useless). You're trying to remove the advantages that autocannons have to make up for their comparatively low damage output - namely, range and lack of capacitor need.
I know you're Gallente, but could you try to see it from the other side, for once, instead of trying to make sure your race remains uber and all others suck?
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
|
Hampstah
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:34:00 -
[10]
/signed
Hail is horrible. Velocity penalty on Minnie ships built for speed does not make since.
-----
Beware Rodentz with Gunz
|
Cpt Abestos
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:38:00 -
[11]
How about removing the speed and cap recharge penality and adding a falloff penality and making the guns use cap when fired with that ammo loaded?
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gronsak on 29/06/2006 22:40:20
Originally by: Wrayeth
Um...you are aware that Hail has most of those penalties already, right? Cap recharge (5% per gun), tracking (halved), and velocity (10% per gun)?
Oh, and a 50% falloff penalty would be harsh, considering that Void only has a 15% optimal penalty above and beyond Antimatter. A 15% falloff penalty for Hail would be fine to replace the velocity penalty.
come on who you kidding.
say optimal of 100. -50% on antimatter gives us 50km
-65% on void gives us 35km
the hit is 30% not 15% as u state! [but blasters use about 1/3 optimal and 2/3falloff, so AC falloff penalty if introduced would have to be less than 30%. but i was suggesting only 2 penaltys, un;ole voids 3]
both void and hail get the same tracking hit. void gets on top of that a heavy cap penalty, much much harder than your ship cap penalty, then void cuts blaster optimal by 30% vs antimatter.
also sarm, id swarp void cap use for a constant ship cap penalty any day! you know that penalty isnt much of a nerf at all!
and i do agree the velocity penalty does definitly need to go, but something else needs to replace it!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cpt Abestos
How about removing the speed and cap recharge penality and adding a falloff penality and making the guns use cap when fired with that ammo loaded?
Keep the current cap penalty, remove the speed penalty, remove the optimal penalty, add a falloff penalty inline with void and conflag. Problem solved.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:16:00 -
[14]
Hippo, "less broken" is still broken and should be fixed. And bluntly damage is both abuseable and negates the entire point of the tanking changes.
And solving it by removing el broken amo's damage in the first place...
|
fkingfurious
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:24:00 -
[15]
I dont think applying the same penalties to all ammo's would even remotley balance the game.
In fact, it would totally screw it up.
EXAMPLE
VAGABOND with Hail ammo, which now has the same penalties as void i.e. 25% increase in cap use ( so still 0 cap) - 50% tracking, no velocity penalty.
Closes the range faster than any other cruiser class ship in the game, webs u, rips u to pieces.
DEIMOS with Void, which now has the same penalties as Hail i.e. 20% velocity per turret.
Switched on its MWD to get close, goes nowhere very slowly, has a massive sig penalty, gets ripped to pieces b4 it get s a shot off.
There is a reason why the ammo types dont have identical penalties. Different races suffer more for losing different things, and the t2 ammp penalties are targetted at that. Dont get me wrong, they are far from balanced, but just making them all the same is just about the worst thingu could do.
And lets not even get started on caldari ships using javelin ammo with its -20% shield HP penalty..............
|
Lock out
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gronsak
Edited by: Gronsak on 29/06/2006 22:40:20come on who you kidding.
say optimal of 100. -50% on antimatter gives us 50km
-65% on void gives us 35km
the hit is 30% not 15% as u state! [but blasters use about 1/3 optimal and 2/3falloff, so AC falloff penalty if introduced would have to be less than 30%. but i was suggesting only 2 penaltys, un;ole voids 3]
both void and hail get the same tracking hit. void gets on top of that a heavy cap penalty, much much harder than your ship cap penalty, then void cuts blaster optimal by 30% vs antimatter.
also sarm, id swarp void cap use for a constant ship cap penalty any day! you know that penalty isnt much of a nerf at all!
and i do agree the velocity penalty does definitly need to go, but something else needs to replace it!
Not sure why you're using 100km as an example, as void is only used in blasters... Realistically Void L is probably going to decrease your optimal by about 1km, which can make a difference, but isn't nearly as huge of a penalty as a ~30% (or slightly less, whatever you're suggesting here) loss in falloff would be for autocannons.
As for the cap penalty... As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), the Hail penalty stacks for each gun, so for example on a Tempest, the overall penalty would be 0.95^6 (6 guns) = 0.735, or about a 26.5% penalty to cap recharge, compared to Void's 25% overall increase in cap use of the guns. Now this alone seems fairly equal... The one major difference is the fact that Hail ammo nerfs your cap whether you're firing or not, which IMO is a penalty in itself.
That said, if the speed penalty was removed and replaced with a reasonable falloff penalty, it'd probably make Hail worth using. But honestly I think it'd have to be less than 30% to be balanced with Void and especially Conflag (which doesn't have any more of a range penalty than Multifreq IIRC.) |
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:38:00 -
[17]
use 100 insted of say 6.7km to keep the math simple for those foke that are not so good at it!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Bluestealth
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gronsak
Edited by: Gronsak on 29/06/2006 22:40:20
Originally by: Wrayeth
Um...you are aware that Hail has most of those penalties already, right? Cap recharge (5% per gun), tracking (halved), and velocity (10% per gun)?
Oh, and a 50% falloff penalty would be harsh, considering that Void only has a 15% optimal penalty above and beyond Antimatter. A 15% falloff penalty for Hail would be fine to replace the velocity penalty.
come on who you kidding.
say optimal of 100. -50% on antimatter gives us 50km
-65% on void gives us 35km
the hit is 30% not 15% as u state! [but blasters use about 1/3 optimal and 2/3falloff, so AC falloff penalty if introduced would have to be less than 30%. but i was suggesting only 2 penaltys, un;ole voids 3]
both void and hail get the same tracking hit. void gets on top of that a heavy cap penalty, much much harder than your ship cap penalty, then void cuts blaster optimal by 30% vs antimatter.
also sarm, id swarp void cap use for a constant ship cap penalty any day! you know that penalty isnt much of a nerf at all!
and i do agree the velocity penalty does definitly need to go, but something else needs to replace it!
Yeah..... plus the fact that minmatar are a split race, so if we use tech2 missles as well... omg we have no cap or no speed. Seriously how can they justify a 27.5% decrease in cap recharge, OR 25% decrease in speed? :( I use tech2 launchers on my muninn no tech2 missles, 425mm IIs with barrage or tech1 ammo, no hail. Of course I also use tech2 drones... which have no side effects except their rediculous cost :)
Over time during fights I think the cap recharge rate HURTS A LOT more then a usage increase on the guns, especially for a race that alraedy uses cap injectors on almost all of their setups.
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:53:00 -
[19]
the cap recharge penalty of using hail on a tempest [with mwd] equils 3.66less cap per sec at peak!! much much much less at other times, but at peask u get a sum of 3.66cap less per sec! at 90% its clsoer to 1 cap a sec lost, at 100% its no cap lost per sec!
the void penalty, on a blasterthron with ion blasters equils 2.65cap per shot per gun. thats 18.375 cap per volley with a rof of 2.96 means we get hit by 6.2cap per second CONSTANTLY
70% more cap use penalty on void [and thats when looking at a tempests lost cap at peak recharge!] on a ship with already massive cap problems!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Meridius
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 00:32:00 -
[20]
/signed in slave blood
-
_____
|
OrangeAfroMan
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 00:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gronsak
yes and no!
speed hit has to go, but something else has to come in!
cap recharge is no penalty at all on a ship that injects and noses for cap!
perhaps loose the recharge and speed for a half in falloff!
atm void hits galante with cap use tracking AND optimal. the cap penalty is on the guns unlike your one which is on the ship, having it on the ship isnt any nerf at all tbh
imo something like. -50% tracking, -50% falloff would be fair!!
or -50% tracking and 20 cap per gun per shot for large AC
but you definitly cant just remove velocity penalty without adding anything!
QFT, Speed pentalty is extremely counter-productive to even the very basic function of the ship, but it should have something to replace it.
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
OrangeAfroMan
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 00:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Most ships inject and nos. What you seem to forget is that hail has 2 penalties that effect the ship at all times the ammo is loaded, while conflag and void only get their ship-effecting penalty (increased cap use) when the guns are firing.
If the speed and cap recharge penalties only came into play when you activated the guns I wouldn't have a problem with it, but getting the penalties just for having them loaded is a bit daft. There are other ammos (the long ranged ones) that suffer this too and it also needs to be changed.
Also very true, I wouldnt complain at all if the speed penalty was only applied when the guns were fired - though the cap penalty would need to be upped or changed if it only applied when fired.
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
Lock out
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 00:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gronsak
the cap recharge penalty of using hail on a tempest [with mwd] equils 3.66less cap per sec at peak!! much much much less at other times, but at peask u get a sum of 3.66cap less per sec! at 90% its clsoer to 1 cap a sec lost, at 100% its no cap lost per sec!
the void penalty, on a blasterthron with ion blasters equils 2.65cap per shot per gun. thats 18.375 cap per volley with a rof of 2.96 means we get hit by 6.2cap per second CONSTANTLY
70% more cap use penalty on void [and thats when looking at a tempests lost cap at peak recharge!] on a ship with already massive cap problems!
Ah, ok... I can kinda see where you're coming from. Though, what config/skills give you a 2.96 rof with Ions? I'm getting 3.70 in Quickfit with 3 magstabs and rapid firing 5. With 3.70 rof, it only equals a slightly higher capacitor penalty than the Tempest with Hail (especially if you use an AB, which I personally find myself using more than an MWD.) Personally, I think that this slight bit more cap loss with Void is easily negated by the fact that the Hail penalty is always applied while the ammo is loaded.
Changing it to only apply while the autocannons are active would be a good move, IMHO, and then I wouldn't mind losing a decent chunk of falloff quite as much. |
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 01:35:00 -
[24]
=======================================================================================
Ah, ok... I can kinda see where you're coming from. Though, what config/skills give you a 2.96 rof with Ions? I'm getting 3.70 in Quickfit with 3 magstabs and rapid firing 5. With 3.70 rof, it only equals a slightly higher capacitor penalty than the Tempest with Hail (especially if you use an AB, which I personally find myself using more than an MWD.) Personally, I think that this slight bit more cap loss with Void is easily negated by the fact that the Hail penalty is always applied while the ammo is loaded.
Changing it to only apply while the autocannons are active would be a good move, IMHO, and then I wouldn't mind losing a decent chunk of falloff quite as much.
=======================================================================================
oh crap i made a mistake there, just relised. i didnt have my blasterthron clsoe to me so i jumped into a pulse gedden and noted the base rof of the gun and the modified rof with my skills and dmg mods, and then just used simple math to get the blasters rof. but id forgotten to take geddens rof into account :P. ur value of 3.7 is correct
with that taken into account, the void cap penalty is 35.68% more compaired to the tempest at peak recharge [and you are never ever really at peack, ur either side of it that that percentage is a LOT higher, infact if the tempest hovers at around 60% cap, the difference is about 100%. tbh, id rather see void cap penalty changed into the same one as the tempests! recharge rather than per shot per gun!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Copine Callmeknau
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 02:21:00 -
[25]
When you're talking about falloff penalties and cap recharge please remember that it's not just tempest pilots that use hail. The cap recharge penalty hurts a lot on ships like the cyclone and the rupture, it usually means the difference between having your hardeners run indefinately or getting an armour rep/shield boost cycle in if nossed to 0 cap.
For gods sake don't nerf the falloff, using the falloff is one of the only ways a ship like the rupture can beat a good thorax. If the falloff is nerfed and I need to get within 4 or 5KM to hit him properly I'm in the sweet spot for his blasters. Void hurts like a ***** in case you didn't know and will usually outdamage your tank (that's if you have a tank).
Ditto for the cyclone, a gank fitted brutix will rip a cyclone apart at close range. Safest way to beat it is to web him and keep out of range on his blasters.
By nerfing falloff you make Hail ammo not worth fitting for non-BS matari ships.
-------
See the idiot walk, see the idiot talk
|
Kard Fater
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 15:32:00 -
[26]
/signed
We need equally balanced nerfs in the different factions.
|
Sergej
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 15:45:00 -
[27]
Best I've heard so far is apply velocity penalty only when actually shooting. It'd still hurt, but not as much. As it is, there are very rare circumstances when I switch my barage to hail and the only reason I'd actually want to have hail fitted in the first place is only when I know I'll be landing straight on top of the enemy ship. It's not useless, but other t2 short range ammos have less harsh penalties.
|
Clavius XIV
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 17:48:00 -
[28]
Perhaps remove the speed penalty for Hail, and add a penalty to warp core strength, and don't allow ammo swap if scrambled.
|
Jim McGregor
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 18:10:00 -
[29]
I was happy to finally get t2 guns and then i tried Hail. The speed penalty really sucks since our ships depend on speed. Please change it to something else, i almost dont care what it is as long as its not speed.
---
The Eve Wiki Community Portal | Eve Tribune |
Mahavy Seth
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 18:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Wrayeth
This is just a quick request to the devs to remove the velocity penalty from Hail. Short range ammo should not have a velocity penalty applied; if you feel it should, then Void should also receive a velocity penalty for balance purposes.
Thanks.
Yes why not. Also I do not understand why they have not done it already when they was removing cap consumption also... LOL
|
Cerberix
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 18:37:00 -
[31]
Signed
pls make hail actually usuable 
|
Mahavy Seth
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 21:18:00 -
[32]
/signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
|
Prestis
|
Posted - 2006.06.30 21:20:00 -
[33]
Signed.
I've seen Hail selling for less than EMP.
|
jernej
|
Posted - 2006.08.04 17:00:00 -
[34]
Signed
Bump !!! |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2006.08.04 17:24:00 -
[35]
Yah, speed penalty is a bit harsh, replace with what I suggested in other thread pls.
-30% falloff, same additional penalty null gets to its optimal. Cap recharge penalty I don't have too much problems with myself, it's there cause in the opinion of the devs projectiles don't need cap, so there is no cap use penalty they can add so they had to resort to a cap recharge penalty.
To recap: Give hail instead of velocity penalty, a falloff penalty of 30%.
-
"I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you.  " -_ Twilight Moon |
xlop
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 14:53:00 -
[36]
yarr, fix hail ffs
|
Uchikage
Rampage Eternal
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 15:08:00 -
[37]
Speed penalties for the skirmish warfare race is rediculous beyond description. It would be the same as giving the Gallente a damage penalty, or the Amarr an armor resistance penalty.
_______________________________________________
"...which will become my sword in the very near future."
"Bish, you don't have a future."
Who Dares, Wins -SAS |
voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 15:38:00 -
[38]
/signed
but change the penalty to some thing that is balance.
|
vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 16:09:00 -
[39]
loose the speed penalty, give it -25% falloff
|
Max Hardcase
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 16:17:00 -
[40]
I vote we instead ditch the whole tech2 ammo mess as it stands now and start from scratch.
Preferably with less nberness.
As strange as it may sound I agree with Maya on this subject
----------------------------------------------
Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama
Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ?
FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots |
Bazman
Caldari
The Establishment
|
Posted - 2006.08.28 16:21:00 -
[41]
I agree, unnerf Hail
To be honest though, I've had great results with it in only one specific situation. Breaking a BS tank with my Jaguar :o Whats funny is that its basically only usable by passively tanked ships that are attacking a larger target than them. So like, only useful in roughly 5% of PVP situations i get into.
-----
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a |
Lunna
Tica Vun
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 17:43:00 -
[42]
/signed
Switching to hail on the spot (once you come close enough to your target) is pointless. In those 10sec while loading your guns, you'll kill the extra damage it does and prolly just break even with t1 ammo.
Starting (or flying) with hail loaded is also pointless, as you never know how far your target will be, unless warping to your gang mate, who is already close to the enemy. Not to mention that, 6 guns loaded with hail is almost like having a webifier on you. The ship flys like a brick, takes ages to align, plus your cap recharge is crippled.
Hail is far from being a decent ammo at the moment.
|
Hair
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 17:51:00 -
[43]
Signed
it's useless
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 18:11:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hair
Signed
it's useless
It's not useless...
It's not as usefull as the others, yes.
Change velocity penalty to -30% falloff penalty(same additional penalty void gets towards optimal -50%(0.5) -30%(* 0.7) = -65%(0.35))
I would consider that a fair penalty that isn't tottally crippling.
|
Tasty Burger
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 21:38:00 -
[45]
Why bother replacing it with another penalty?
It already has 4 penalties.
-First is the -50% range which doesn't hurt much admittedly. Void has -65%.
-Second is the .5x tracking, which void also has.
-Third is the -10% cap recharge rate, which completely ruins any kind of active tank that doesnt use cap boosters, which are a huge, huge hassle to use on an autocannon ship. Void has +25% cap use per shot, which is definitely not as bad as -10% cap recharge rate.
-fourth of course is the velocity penalty.
Lets say the velocity penalty is removed as it should be. Void would have a per shot penalty which doesn't hurt the cap recharge as bad as a per gun cap recharge penalty.
A cap recharge penalty really isn't that fair (it shouldn't be on missiles either). And obviously a cap use penalty wouldn't work.
I just personally think that any ship-wide bonus or penalty is stupid. Any bonus or penalty should only affect the gun.
|
Kaleeb
Celestial Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 22:38:00 -
[46]
If Hail wasnt for minmatar it wouldnt have the speed penalty
Originally by: Blacklight
Last night was an 'anomoly' for different reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with skill or who were the better pvpers.
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.08.31 23:54:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Why bother replacing it with another penalty?
It already has 4 penalties.
-First is the -50% range which doesn't hurt much admittedly. Void has -65%.
-Second is the .5x tracking, which void also has.
-Third is the -10% cap recharge rate, which completely ruins any kind of active tank that doesnt use cap boosters, which are a huge, huge hassle to use on an autocannon ship. Void has +25% cap use per shot, which is definitely not as bad as -10% cap recharge rate.
-fourth of course is the velocity penalty.
Void also has 4 penalties.
- Hail -50% optimal and Void -50% optimal
- Hail -50% tracking and Void -50% tracking
- Hail +10% CapRechargeTime and void +25% cap use
- Hail -10% velocity(for large) and void -30% optimal
I'd just suggest changing that velocity penalty to a falloff penalty, keeping the 4 penalties(which void has as well, to stress that point again)
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Lets say the velocity penalty is removed as it should be. Void would have a per shot penalty which doesn't hurt the cap recharge as bad as a per gun cap recharge penalty.
A cap recharge penalty really isn't that fair (it shouldn't be on missiles either). And obviously a cap use penalty wouldn't work.
The cap recharge time lost makes the lost cap/s from recharge time not much worse(if at all) then the increased cap use for void ammo
Originally by: Tasty Burger
I just personally think that any ship-wide bonus or penalty is stupid. Any bonus or penalty should only affect the gun.
Indeed it would be much better if there wouldn't be a ship-wide bonus, though some form of penalty is still needed I think. Now if they could make hail use cap that could be interesting, would make the penalty only have an effect when actually firing the gun rather then a constant effect while ammo is loaded.
|
Wizie
Minmatar
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 00:00:00 -
[48]
Actually Void has 3 penalties... not 4.
You list 2 optimal penalties.
In that case
Hail has 5 more penalties for every gun it fits with hail.
-----------------
Sig removed by some noob |
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 00:14:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Wizie
Actually Void has 3 penalties... not 4.
You list 2 optimal penalties.
In that case
Hail has 5 more penalties for every gun it fits with hail.
Yup Void has 2 optimal penalties, it has an additional 30% optimal penalty on top of the normal 50% penalty, resulting in a 65% penalty for void in total.
and yes it is correct in current form hail tends to nerf any ship it is fitted on badly by applying the same penalty for each gun(which originally CCP claimed wouldn't be the case iirc). I'd rather have the falloff penalty(as 4th penalty) then the velocity penalty.
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 00:53:00 -
[50]
If we're going to unnerf Hail, might as well put it in line with the 25% damage increase schtick all the other T2 ammo has going.
Yay for no more decent Minmatar damage.
|
Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 08:00:00 -
[51]
my autopest with 6 barrles of hail L goes slower than my naglfar - kinda crazy for a close range battleship
Originally by: TyR Omega
[08:59:07] TyR Omega > BoB will come and get
|
Laythun
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 08:21:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Once again /signed
If you're not going to change the ethos of T2 ammo, please make all of them equally as usable as each other. Give Conflag and Null (could be void, which ever one does omfg damage) a speed penalty, or remove the one from Hail.
Ewww...Conflag is fine, if you've ever used it. and i hope u have before u start preaching rubbish.
See You In Space Cowboy |
Akiman
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 08:42:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Akiman on 01/09/2006 08:44:38
tech II rail ammos SUXXX! i think everybody agree on that and all long range ammos too...
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 09:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
If we're going to unnerf Hail, might as well put it in line with the 25% damage increase schtick all the other T2 ammo has going.
Yay for no more decent Minmatar damage.
Hail is inline with the other T2 ammo's, it's EMP that isn't (is 11 where others are 12)
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 09:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akiman
Edited by: Akiman on 01/09/2006 08:44:38
tech II rail ammos SUXXX! i think everybody agree on that and all long range ammos too...
End yourself. All T2 long range ammo is insanely uber (220km+ sniping, gg).
And to the "unnerf hail" dudes, seriously. It gets a 36% damage increase versus the 25% of everything else. Either that has to go or it's no deal - as it stands, a 36% damage increase on some of the best damage types to kill armor tankers is nuts.
And to be quite honest, since all T2 ammo is overbonused anyway, Hail can stay the way it is until we get around to fixing it properly and eliminating the hilariously broken damage outputs all T2 ammo is giving us.
|
Nyssa Dakalsai
Cosmic Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 09:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Uchikage
Speed penalties for the skirmish warfare race is rediculous beyond description. It would be the same as giving the Gallente a damage penalty, or the Amarr an armor resistance penalty.
erm helllloooo! Ammar get a CAP PENALTY. Now think about that for a race that is the MOST cap dependent in the game.
|
Kaleeb
Celestial Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 09:36:00 -
[57]
Yeah I agree conflag really sucks 
Originally by: Blacklight
Last night was an 'anomoly' for different reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with skill or who were the better pvpers.
|
Critta
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 10:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nyssa Dakalsai
Originally by: Uchikage
Speed penalties for the skirmish warfare race is rediculous beyond description. It would be the same as giving the Gallente a damage penalty, or the Amarr an armor resistance penalty.
erm helllloooo! Ammar get a CAP PENALTY. Now think about that for a race that is the MOST cap dependent in the game.
*thinks for approximately half a second*
But wait a minute, doesn't (almost) every Amarr ship come with a cap bonus of some kind?
Amarr ships also need no ammo.
When you fit Hail in your ship, you effectively web yourself and kill your cap recharge, all in one easy step.
I've used conflag with my Amarr character a fair bit, there are ways around extra cap use, there is no way around the kind of speed reductions you get with hail, thus I never ever use it.
|
Critta
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 10:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth
/signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
|
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 11:01:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 01/09/2006 11:02:49
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty (for range penalty?) and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
----------
- Office Linebacker -
|
Mekon Shraude
Exotic Dancers Club
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 11:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth
/signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
errr, maybe you have to look it up as well  . Projectiles dont use cap anymore
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 11:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
|
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 11:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
----------
- Office Linebacker -
|
Critta
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 12:29:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Mekon Shraude
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth
/signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
errr, maybe you have to look it up as well . Projectiles dont use cap anymore
Dammit... I leave the game for a couple of months... and look what happens 
*takes that last comment back*
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 12:56:00 -
[65]
How did I ever miss this thread, like 2 months ago?
/McSigned
Originally by: D'Hofren
The amazing boost amarr thread with it's amorphic elastic maths
Scrapheap Challenge!
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 13:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
|
Max Hardcase
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 22:20:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 01/09/2006 22:21:20
A good starting point for the tech2 Ammo would be +5% damage over a T1 and then add some special effects like improved tracking/range/falloff/what ever.
----------------------------------------------
Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama
Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ?
FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots |
Wulfgard
Minmatar
The Older Gamers
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.01 22:47:00 -
[68]
/signed BIG time 
|
jernej
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 02:37:00 -
[69]
signed
But I'm training for phoon just in case.
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 03:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth
/signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
February called, it wants it's facts back. All projectiles use 0 capacitor and have been for a few months now.
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 04:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: Akiman
Edited by: Akiman on 01/09/2006 08:44:38
tech II rail ammos SUXXX! i think everybody agree on that and all long range ammos too...
End yourself. All T2 long range ammo is insanely uber (220km+ sniping, gg).
And to the "unnerf hail" dudes, seriously. It gets a 36% damage increase versus the 25% of everything else. Either that has to go or it's no deal - as it stands, a 36% damage increase on some of the best damage types to kill armor tankers is nuts.
You just don't get it, do you?
Hail is inline with all other short range high-damage T2 ammo. It's emp that isn't
Hail is 15(small) total damage, all the other short range T2 damage ammo is also 15 total damage. EMP is 11 total damage, while other -50% ammo is 12 total damage.
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
Hence Hail breaks autocannon balance by providing oversized damage on a weapon systems whose perks are range, ease of fitting and no capacitor use. The penaltys are there to provide this fairly remarkable option of remodeling your autocannons into essentially explosive blasters with a proper cost.
Originally by: Testicular Testes
And to be quite honest, since all T2 ammo is overbonused anyway, Hail can stay the way it is until we get around to fixing it properly and eliminating the hilariously broken damage outputs all T2 ammo is giving us.
to reiterate, T2 ammo is kinda silly and verging on gamebreaking but hail in its current shape is in most situation unusable(suicide in anything smaller then a bs and for a bs it still has limited uses). IMO, they should fix hail first then perhaps consider overhauling T2 ammo(and T1 ammo while they're at it)
Hail in it's current shape is highly useable. It's deacceleration isn't instant, so by any means in small-scale combat where craft is comitted to engaging it's not just viable - it's decisive.
|
jernej
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 10:50:00 -
[72]
Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things:
1. you've never flown a tempest
2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 11:10:00 -
[73]
Originally by: jernej
Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things:
1. you've never flown a tempest
2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
I fly both a Tempest and Megathron. And if you're doubting whether Hail on a 'pest is worthwhile, as opposed to Cruiser/Frigates (where it's indeed awkward, but works) I can't really help you any further.
I'm not sure what exactly your problem with Hail is. Are you trying to travel with it loaded? Are you running a dualrep tempest? Do you just dislike having to switch ammo before a fight that much?
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 11:31:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
...
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
What do you mean by this. What is AC damage balanced around? What? T1 carbonized lead is explosive and kinetic, 2 damage types the same as hail too.
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Hence Hail breaks autocannon balance by providing oversized damage on a weapon systems whose perks are range, ease of fitting and no capacitor use. The penaltys are there to provide this fairly remarkable option of remodeling your autocannons into essentially explosive blasters with a proper cost.
Problem is that it doesn't make Autocannons into explosive blasters, blasterthron will still outdamage ACpest with hail. What hail does do is effectively the same as getting webbed.
Originally by: Testicular Testes, but that's me who wrote that?
Originally by: Testicular Testes
And to be quite honest, since all T2 ammo is overbonused anyway, Hail can stay the way it is until we get around to fixing it properly and eliminating the hilariously broken damage outputs all T2 ammo is giving us.
to reiterate, T2 ammo is kinda silly and verging on gamebreaking but hail in its current shape is in most situation unusable(suicide in anything smaller then a bs and for a bs it still has limited uses). IMO, they should fix hail first then perhaps consider overhauling T2 ammo(and T1 ammo while they're at it)
Did you forget to put quotation there?
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Hail in it's current shape is highly useable. It's deacceleration isn't instant, so by any means in small-scale combat where craft is comitted to engaging it's not just viable - it's decisive.
Try it outside of small-scale combat and it's usefullness drops a lot. I didn't say it's completely useless, I've used it myself to good effect in stabber when out alone hunting other cruisers, but enter bs pilot that knows how to fight properly(aka not a newbie) and he would dispatch of my slow stabber in short order.
The deceleration is not instant, no but the new top speed is set instant. That means that while your actual speed is still higher then your current top speed you will only be able to pretty much go in a straight line only(just like when you get webbed)
|
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 11:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: jernej
Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things:
1. you've never flown a tempest
2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
I fly both a Tempest and Megathron. And if you're doubting whether Hail on a 'pest is worthwhile, as opposed to Cruiser/Frigates (where it's indeed awkward, but works) I can't really help you any further.
I'm not sure what exactly your problem with Hail is. Are you trying to travel with it loaded? Are you running a dualrep tempest? Do you just dislike having to switch ammo before a fight that much?
If you wouldn't be a  he would doubt you less 
|
jernej
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 11:39:00 -
[76]
Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
We could discuss for days how much the ~15s to change ammo nerfs your damage per minute or how much you hit when you arrive with +1000m/s at the target with 50% tracking penalty.
But lets not, it's all been written before...
|
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 12:12:00 -
[77]
i understand the hail draw back this way:
minmatar are a skirmish warfare race which benefits either from speed or from heavy alpha strikes.
if u fit barrage u aquire a longer distance for ur guns to hit the enemy and can flee if the situation gets too hot.
if u fit hail u aquire an enormous dmg boost but loose the opportunity to warp off that fast.
so if u choose to bbq the enemy u risk more than with the "nail it down from safe distance" tactic.
gallente ammo is similar to this but not exactly the same.
null gives u more falloff and optimal but does not have the same dmg potential as the TI antimattercharge. so u gain overall range and therefore chance to hit but loose dmg.
void on the otherhand gives u an imense dmg boost for the cost of capacitor which in gallentean starships is crucial. and u also loose accuracy by 50% and range by 15% comparing to TI antimatter which has a 50% range penalty instead of voids 65%.
all in all if u choosenull u gain better hit chance for the cost of damage and if u use void u loose survivability for the gain of dmg.
my 2 isk
Originally by: s4mp3r0r
"Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
|
nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 12:28:00 -
[78]
Rasie you the Javlin disadvateges...Granted its not that bad if you armour tank....but WTF is with reducing shiled amount on shield tanker...
=========
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 12:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
As I said it still does an immense ammount of explosive damage, probably the reason it has the velocity penalty in the first place, you want rid of the former there has to be a drawback somewhere.
----------
- Office Linebacker -
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 13:01:00 -
[80]
Originally by: jernej
Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
Let's not argue semantics. I'll call it awesome rainbowcolored death spewing out of guns if it makes you feel better, the bottom line on Hail is that it's extremely useful.
Maybe I'm just really awesome, but when getting a 36% damage bonus on an ammotype I build the ship around it and not just load it into my old vanilla dualrep 'pest. I've already mentioned it last post - you will be screwed in your dualrep Tempest, but then that isn't exactly a great setup in the first place.
And I'm not sure how exactly you're overshooting targets. That's what experience flying the damn thing is for, handle your inertia and come to a full stop within 14k (or let them enter 10k with minimal closing velocity in the case of Megathrons - ie let them catch you moving away). The damage lost from the ammo switch is in the worst cases about 8 seconds worth (you can't really be shooting while locking), in a hypothetical situation where you jump through an unscouted gate solo and encounter a battleship.
In every other situation I have Barrage or EMP loaded for travel, and Hail for BS engagements which tend to be predictable in both timing, types and ranges even while flying solo - nullifying the speed penalty almost entirely.
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 13:41:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
...
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
What do you mean by this. What is AC damage balanced around? What? T1 carbonized lead is explosive and kinetic, 2 damage types the same as hail too.
The other t1 longrange ammo only gets two damagetypes as well, yet Carbonized Lead retains it's unique advantage. The amount of damagetypes has nothing to do with it, as that's ultimately closer to a disadvantage (averaging damage out instead of allowing you to chose a more highly EM biased ammo for instance).
The meaning of the quoted sentence however, is that these things aren't here because somebody couldn't count to twelve or thought having EM/EXP/Kin was the best thing EVER. The ammo damage simply represents the intended damage output of autocannons and the amounts of said damage they can deal. If those were out of line with their fitting requirements and other advantages, a damage modifier increase would make alot more sense as it allows for better granularity (no need for integers) and doesn't necessitate moving every single other ammo type around as well.
The whole EMP/PP/Fusion balancing is actually somewhat clever (whereas Barrage/Hail are basicly both Fusion on steroids as far as base armor damages go), in that EMP provides the highest raw output whereas Fusion/PP both provide better damage against the most common form of tanking (EAN and Photon/Invul respectively).
Quote:
Problem is that it doesn't make Autocannons into explosive blasters, blasterthron will still outdamage ACpest with hail. What hail does do is effectively the same as getting webbed.
Yes, raw damage output the Megathron still wins. Now introduce the effect of doing 28% more actual damage on base resistances (and hence on EAN tanks) and the Tempest pulls up ahead in gunfire damage, while still holding on to it's nasty little jammer(s).
Quote:
Did you forget to put quotation there?
Yeah, forums didn't want me editing. I'm sure you were able to figure it out though.
Quote:
Try it outside of small-scale combat and it's usefullness drops a lot.
None of the T2 high-damage shortrange ammo fairs too well there, particlarly not Void - whereas Barrage/Null/Scorch excel. Conflag survives somewhat I guess, but that's not the point - the point is that all high-damage shortrange T2 ammo is somewhat biased around limited size engagements via range penaltys. Hail receives a velocity penalty for the ability to keep most of it's range by keeping standard falloff.
If anything, that makes it slightly more useable than Void in that situation. But I totally agree that it's bad in groups. It just isn't alone in that position
|
Michuh
Vortex.
Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 14:27:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
Perhaps remove the speed penalty for Hail, and add a penalty to warp core strength, and don't allow ammo swap if scrambled.
 /signed
Pesky stababonds
Maelstrom Recruitment
|
jernej
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 15:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: jernej
Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
Let's not argue semantics. I'll call it awesome rainbowcolored death spewing out of guns if it makes you feel better, the bottom line on Hail is that it's extremely useful.
Maybe I'm just really awesome, but when getting a 36% damage bonus on an ammotype I build the ship around it and not just load it into my old vanilla dualrep 'pest. I've already mentioned it last post - you will be screwed in your dualrep Tempest, but then that isn't exactly a great setup in the first place.
And I'm not sure how exactly you're overshooting targets. That's what experience flying the damn thing is for, handle your inertia and come to a full stop within 14k (or let them enter 10k with minimal closing velocity in the case of Megathrons - ie let them catch you moving away). The damage lost from the ammo switch is in the worst cases about 8 seconds worth (you can't really be shooting while locking), in a hypothetical situation where you jump through an unscouted gate solo and encounter a battleship.
In every other situation I have Barrage or EMP loaded for travel, and Hail for BS engagements which tend to be predictable in both timing, types and ranges even while flying solo - nullifying the speed penalty almost entirely.
Now we found your problem, you're awesome and most people aren't. Now if you ever happen to stumble upon an awesome mega, domi, raven, phoon pilot be sure to have a multi or two on your tempest.
|
Tasty Burger
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 15:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Reto
i understand the hail draw back this way:
So... basically you just stated the obvious. Thanks for that.
|
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 15:54:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Nyxus on 02/09/2006 15:54:41
Ok I admit: With a speed penalty that stacks(!) Hail is pretty freakin worthless. Usefull in some specific setups, but not really.
But honestly, if it didn't have the speed penalty it would be omfg uber in it's current state. If they tweaked the expl % down a bit, and gave it a falloff penalty I don't see why it wouldn't be balanced as it would force Matari ships to get closer (think webrange) in order to do more damage. The Optimal penalties of Void (65%) and Conflag(50%) hurt thier racial ships MUCH more than an optimal penalty hurts Projectiles.
 Void: 28Kin/32Therm, 65% range decrease, 25% cap increase
Conflag: 32EM/28Therm, 50% range decrease, 25% cap increase
New Hail: 32Expl/28Kin, 50% falloff decrease, shooting requires a small amount of cap
If you look at all the range decreases for T2 Ammo, it's clear to see it's 50%. The decrease to Falloff should follow suit. The original decrease to optimal really didn't nothing to hinder Projectiles much. Requiring a cap use similar to what AC's used pre-bonus would also be exactly in line with the other T2 ammos as well.
And as long as we are fixing ammos give Amarr thier Explosive Crystals with 50% range reduction. Then give Matari an Ammo that has the same damage as they do now (Expl/Kin) but gives a 10% speed increase (per gun) and a 2% Signature Decrease (per gun) and a 50% Falloff reduction. It will create some stupid 5km/s Phoons but everthing else will actually be *significantly* faster that other racial ships.
I concur that Matari ships should be more than 15m/s faster than my Amarr armored behemoths. Of course, Amarr should have more base armor than they have now too.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
|
Mikal Drey
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 16:35:00 -
[86]
hey hey
I can totally handle the penalties of the TII ammo but the fact that it stacks makes it ú$%"ú%ú%$ú%%"ú%"ú crap.
its like being webbed.
/signed
/signed to make any changes to TII ammo as its pants.
|
LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 17:13:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
hey hey
I can totally handle the penalties of the TII ammo but the fact that it stacks makes it ú$%"ú%ú%$ú%%"ú%"ú crap.
its like being webbed.
/signed
/signed to make any changes to TII ammo as its pants.
Lol... flying deimos with any ammo is like beeing webbed. Problem with hail is vaga, i don't want to see them around flying with hail. Mega & tempest ballance is little problematic due to hail nerf, but speed nerf must be there, maybe remove tracking or cap recharge.
---------------------
Looking for frentix? Mail me. |
Bhoki Tentor
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 17:28:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
As I said it still does an immense ammount of explosive damage, probably the reason it has the velocity penalty in the first place, you want rid of the former there has to be a drawback somewhere.
You're obviously blind to the fact that the reason why EMP(!) is doing less damage is because it has em as highest damage type while explosive is racial primary damage type.
There is absolutely no reason to lower hail damage whatsoever.
That explosive is lowest resist on armor(and stays lowest with eanm tank) is not a reason to lower hail damage. That is an issue with how armor tanking and shield tanking relate and a certain lack of ships that can focus on shield tanking(even ships that are intended for shield tanks are on occasion better off using their mids for more usefull things and not shield tank). Nerfing hail damage simply because of an unrelated issue is stupid.
The velocity penalty, I don't understand the logic behind it but if it has to do with the explosive damage that in my eyes is silly. I rather think it was a reaction to the mobile Vagabond then. Which would tend to become overpowered currently if all that would change on hail would be the velocity penalty getting dropped.
I would rather propose adding a falloff penalty to hail and dropping the velocity penalty. I also think -30% falloff would be a good starting point, considering void has an additional 30% penalty on optimal(-50% - 30%(0.5 * 0.7) = -65%).
|
Testicular Testes
|
Posted - 2006.09.03 00:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
You're obviously blind to the fact that the reason why EMP(!) is doing less damage is because it has em as highest damage type while explosive is racial primary damage type.
WTB 12 point Fusion S.
|
Sebastato
Amarr
The Galactic Empire
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.09.03 14:53:00 -
[90]
Signed, change Hail ammo. Atm its totally unbalanced and useless. Conflagration crystals only have tracking penalty, has Hail has 3 really hard penalties: velocity, tracking and cap recharge, making any Minmatar ship a sitting duck. Removing the velocity penalty would make the Vagabond even more uber than it already is. Removing the cap penalty would at least make it possible to tank on without cap boosters or to use MWD.
Eve Navigation Router
|
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2006.09.05 21:57:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Reto
i understand the hail draw back this way:
So... basically you just stated the obvious. Thanks for that.
read the whole post sir and dont look for single phrases which could underline ur concern in a way which is benefitial for ur position.
every tII ammonition type has drawbacks and i stated that gallente have some aswell which also neglet the gallente ships functionality in a combat situation.
Originally by: s4mp3r0r
"Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
|
vyperpit
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.09.09 12:10:00 -
[92]
bump, since this is a big big big problem.
its actually a nerf to minmatar, while other races can use their t2 high dmg ammo, we cant use this one :/
means a dam thorax can outdamage a sleipnir :/
|
F Apparition
Minmatar
Life Extermination
New Eden Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2006.09.09 12:15:00 -
[93]
/signed
The gimpage factor on hail is very unbalanced to the rest.
|
Spaced Skunk
Oriundus Cineris
|
Posted - 2006.09.10 11:57:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Wrayeth
This is just a quick request to the devs to remove the velocity penalty from Hail. Short range ammo should not have a velocity penalty applied; if you feel it should, then Void should also receive a velocity penalty for balance purposes.
Thanks.
Void - Tracking Penalty, Range Penalty. These do Kinetic and Thermal which tbh are all round damage types on shield and armor.
Hail - Tracking Penalty, Range Penalty, Cap Recharge Penalty, Velocity Penalty. Kinetic and Explosive, kinetic is pretty all round but explosive is pretty poor on shield.
Another thing to point out would be Void is mostly, in 90% of the time, used by gallente ships. Most gallente ships have a generous drone bay to suite thier race, as we know drones are very versatile, do a lot of dps, and of course have a choice of damage type.
Aye this is what is called game balancing.
I sign your thread with the ball point pen on the end of my vagabond.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |