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Thorvade
The Damorian Collective
0
   |
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Repeat 0ffenders
705
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just leave your corp, join an NPC corp and make a chat channel for your corp mates for the duration of the war. Rejoin when war is over.
Never pay a ransom - it will just flag you as someone who will pay and you'll be decced again in short order. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
628
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
There's also plenty of dudes out there who just wanna log in and shoot stuff. You could find these people to fight for you. However sounds like you're probably against some neckbeard that just wants to shoot new players for shiny killmails when they get caught while running a mission. These players generally scout out their targets and collect intel on every potential missioner (what they fly, where they mission, their potential isk earned from loot by killing their ship, etc) in a corp prior to wardeccing them then use neutral alts to tail them whilst their main is logged off waiting to pounce once a suitable target is found. So you'll have setup a trap for them (such as using a "mission boat" with a bait tank, neuts, tackle, etc to bait out your aggressor into fighting then bring in your friends).
Add the people who wardecced you to your watchlist, look at their killboards to see any potential alts that they may have, etc and fight back (obviously not with your pimped mission ships). They'll eventually toss off once you show you have some teeth.
Project Cerberus is recruiting for the US Timezone, click here |
Lychton Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
45
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
Honestly, the best way to solidify your corp is to look at the engagement platform your enemy is using against you (via your lossmails) and developing a counter doctrine to neutralize the threat. It's good content for your members and it may get the multibox dude/dudette to back down.
Actual combat (ty for your service) doesn't translate to game mechanics. You still need to find, fix, and destroy your space enemy. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1369
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 08:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
If it cannot defend itself against a singular pilot, the only thing that's pointless is the existance of that corporation. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
525
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 09:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fight back you nonce. |
Ohemgeez MyNameWontFi
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 09:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
this is just embarrassing dude....
corporation who can't defend themselves against, as you've said, 2-man/1-man corps, imho, needs to be wardecced as often as possible to wake the heck out of them and force them to fight. |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 10:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Well if you play like a noob you should join a noob (npc) corp instead. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1427
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 10:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
Someone paid me to war dec you. My monetary gain is not a real reason? I am entitled to my gameplay as much as you are to yours. You can still play the game, jsut need to be non dumb and learn to make an intel network.
And ganking is more realistic than wars? LOL.... that was a good one. Wars give you ample ground to learn how to avoid and fight back, Ganking gives you nothing.
Know one thing you can do? Hire US to hunt them. Or some other merc group that hunts targets (not the camp trade routes only type). The vast majority of people that hired us to punish offending corps are pleased...
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
1276
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 11:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back. This is probable. Still, there's no reason for you guys to allow them to control your playtime.
You have 3 options:
1) if you want to play EVE very casually --> do as chatgris said: drop corp, share a chat channel
2) if you want to become a good 'carebear' player --> learn to evade combat. it's extremely easy, especially if it's just one or a couple of dudes hunting you in all of EVE. change systems, watch local, watch dscan, use bookmarks (dock, undock, tacticals on gates), take advantage of acceleration gates and deadspace, etc. there's tons of material on how to do this
3) if you want to try pvp --> fight back, either alone or with help. keep your ships cheap and you'll have fun no matter the outcome
I'd personally reccomend option 3, but if you're not interested the other 2 options are fine. Just do not sit in station like a helpless moron. 
EVE Online: Death-o-meter |
Intar Medris
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
212
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 12:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
I will kill a carebear in honor of this post. +1 Added to the Kill-It-Forward queue.
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
282
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 13:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'll just point out one more time for the record.
EVE is a PVP game. It's not a PVE game. It's designed / coded for one player to shoot another player. If you're trying to make EVE into a PVE game - you will fail. You are paying to play a PVP game - you need to understand that.
This whole thread makes me picture some dude with a pony saddle staring at a cat and saying the cat is all messed up. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
33
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 13:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Add characters to your Contacts, add to watch list .. know when the enemy is online.
locater agents, find the characters
out of corp scout alts, find the characters, tail the characters. Watch the in gates to where you are "carebearing"
fit pvp combat ships and put them where you can quickly get at them.
fit a bit extra tank
have some of your corp stay in pvp ships while other's carebear.
disband corp .. en mass join and bigger more robust and pvp capable corp.
join a null sec corp, where there is alot less of that sort of stuff .. null is often safer than highsec ..
lots of options and tips and tricks ..
History is the study of change. |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
211
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 15:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I'll just point out one more time for the record.
EVE is a PVP game. It's not a PVE game. It's designed / coded for one player to shoot another player. If you're trying to make EVE into a PVE game - you will fail. You are paying to play a PVP game - you need to understand that.
This whole thread makes me picture some dude with a pony saddle staring at a cat and saying the cat is all messed up.
Don't most of the people playing this game play it for the PvE? (IE High Sec stuff) |
Chewytowel Haklar
Dayman Industries
45
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 16:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:
Don't most of the people playing this game play it for the PvE? (IE High Sec stuff)
Kyle: Listen, and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Terminator)
This explains their mentality to the letter. Don't expect them to show kindness ever. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
283
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 17:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:Quote:
Don't most of the people playing this game play it for the PvE? (IE High Sec stuff)
Kyle: Listen, and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Terminator) This explains their mentality to the letter. Don't expect them to show kindness ever.
And the other side of the table is the blatant hypocracy in the OP. He just wants to play the game his way.
He is OK with wars of course. BUT ony those with a purpose. Let's examine his definition of purpose: They are OK as long as they don't get in his way. The only logical way to solve his issue is to add a step to the war dec process for his approval/sanction where he approves of a given wars purpose.
His post is soley about self interest. 200 years ago he would have been shunned and expelled from the villiage for such a crime. These days it's OK to be self involved and have no regard for others.
We can explain it to him, but we can't make him understand. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2311
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 19:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Trying to have a good time in a game is as close to true purpose as one can get.The thing in eve is we all play for our own enjoyement and what one considers fun , the other person considers harassing/lame.We do what the game let's us do and wardecs is a part of that.
Do i find high-sec wardecs lame?Hell yeah , but it's a part of the game and i've never complained about getting wardecced in the time i lived in high-sec.You can do so many things besides ''counting the days till the dec ends'' to counter your opponent.
They usually are out to get easy kills as you say so make it uneasy for them , give them a few losses.You're playing since 2009 , come on you can do better then hide in a station.
Instead of using that group booster for mining/missioning use it to boost your groups pvp fleet , get into ships wich are fast and can hit at range and start to **** with your opponent.It's a great learning pratice .
Your corp discription has 2 things wrong:
1. It shows that you are a pure Industrial corporation , so if you like to remove that big target on your head chance the corp bio.
2.It shows you're ultimate aim is to join a nullsec group , so start behaving like corp that not only belongs in a rental Alliance in null--sec but also can have some sharkteeth if needed.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Thorvade
The Damorian Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.
The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.
The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.
Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.
Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
1285
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
OP, next time please state clearly that you just want to rant cluelessly, so I won't bother to post.
Thanks.
EVE Online: Death-o-meter |
drummendejef maaktnietuit
Active Fusion
Cold Fusion.
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 23:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Haters will hate :)
I must agree with the OPs point of view and I love the way how he explained things.
EVE is a big part PVP, true, but you have lowsec, nullsec and Wspace for that. Can't there be a liitle part of space where only ganks are a way of PVP? The wardecs fly highsec corps around their ears. If you ask the wardeccers why: "for the lols". Do we, "carebears" who don't really have PVP skills, but who like to put our training time into manufacturing and flying freighters.
That saying, everyone knows it's useless to even try to undock to start a fight with the wardeccers, who didn't train for manufacturing and flying freighters, but for T2 guns, overheating skills and T3s.
I'm not saying highsec wars should be banned. RvB is a cool way of doing it. But if you are 50% of the time wardecced..
As Thorvade said, carebears also pay for the game, and getting a guy who is too scared to go into lowsec wardeccing you, isn't fair for the people who also pay to play a game.
In the long term, the carebears are docked, manufacturing goes down (for a bit) and the wardeccers ships get more expensive. Not a big chance that they will ever notice because there are alot of newbro's who do get killed, but make EVE an easier game for them too. We all know that EVE is a hard game, don't let newbro's get wardecced in highsec and lose all the stuff they have. It's not the way you will keep them comming.
Even I am thinking of doing better things with my 15 bucks..
TL;DR
Make it harder to wardec someone who doesn't want to be wardecced. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
160
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 23:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
While I understand your frustration, everything in this game must be fought for. Yeah, people wardeccing for the 'lols' is annoying and rather juvenile. However, if you want the perks of your own corporation, you must defend it.
While that sort of hardcore feature isn't in most games, it is a pillar of EVE. You must defend your own. If you can't, or you are unwilling, changing the mechanics of that core (risk vs reward) is not the answer.
You really have a few choices as was pointed out earlier.
People suck. Gankers and lolzwarriors suck, but they are part of the game. |
Shelom Severasse
Elite Kombat Academy
17
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 00:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
you know, there are more skills to train than just indy and mining skills right? have you looked at gunnery or missile skills with which to defend yourself? if your best attempt to defend yourself is by posting angrily on the forums, then thats just sad :| |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1382
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 09:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
And that's where you are dead wrong. War decs force you to play as the developers intended. It's part of the whole package that is Eve. You are never forced into this as it is not mandatory to join a corp.
Thorvade wrote:Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle.
You act as if the developers actually give you a choice. This is simply not the case. You never had a choice, you are in a corporation so wardecs are a reality you deal with. You are not "forced" into anything. Stick in an NPC corp and you won't have to deal with wars.
Ohhh but then you'd have to pay 11% tax now woudn't you? You simply want all the benefits, but none of the responsibilities of being in a corporation. This isn't about forcing anyones playstyle. This is you crying about having to pay 11% tax to be safe from wardecs. |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
604
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 10:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
TBH the solution is simple, don't call them wars. Call them 'unreasoned hate agreements'. Now, when you contact concord you can state your utter hatred for some people and suddenly makes sense as they go 'sure why not pew them for absolutely no reason at all'.
Then systems fine, no need to change anything, I accept isk for ideas provided. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1429
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 10:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.
The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.
The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.
Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.
Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.
And when you want to not be shot, that means me not shooting you, you are trying to force me to play the way YOU want. The way I want to play is shooting EVERYONE that is not in my corp.
The same way I cannot get 100% of what I want, you cannot get 100% of what you want, because either of the optiosn would make the other side get 0% of what it wants.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1429
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 10:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Shelom Severasse wrote:Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc. you know, there are more skills to train than just indy and mining skills right? have you looked at gunnery or missile skills with which to defend yourself? if your best attempt to defend yourself is by posting angrily on the forums, then thats just sad :|
Or even better.. use your own skills to make FRIENDS, and develop a network of contacts, an intel channel. You know REALLY PLAY EVE. The main benefit is not even that you will lose less ships, it is that the game becomes hundreds of times more interesting and fun!
Any corp that basically acts as a lot of people playing solo under the same banner is fail. This is NOT a solo game, learn to play with others.
And for god sake.. get an empty clone a destroyer or t1 cruiser and TRY the pvp ( need to lose at least 5-7 ships) before you dare to say you do not like it. Most people are just frightened. But if people would not be able to overcome their fear of the unknown human race would end because no one would ever be able to ask a girl to go out for the first time on his life... because "omg.. I never did it, so I cannot do it and I am scared!!!"
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Intar Medris
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
212
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 11:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.
The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.
The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.
Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.
Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.
You can effectively PVP with just a bunch of frigates. Surely you and your corp mates have decent enough skills to do that. If you keep making yourself an easy target expect the corp to be wardecced to oblivion. Fight back and keep your losses low, and cause the attackers some losses you are much less likely to be wardecced in the future. Or hire a Merc group to defend you, and really give your attackers a headache which will have them running for the hills if you hire a competent group.
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
414
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
If you can't defend your way of life, it will be taken from you. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
843
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 15:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
This is the part where you learn how to shoot back. It's the place where your corp grows, or dies.
If your members won't ever attempt to fight, your corp is doomed to die a slow and sad death.
Over 90% of EVE ships have guns on them. Should be a big clue at some point, as to what happens in the game. |
Samuel Triptee
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
37
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
So... let me get this straight...
There is a miner complaining his play style is being controlled by a WarDecker.
The Miner's solution is to control the WarDecker's play style.
Am I missing something?
Miner's are very fortunate I didn't design the asteroid fields... they would be more dangerous to fly around than level 4 missions. Those big rocks would be randomly moving and would cause damage if they made contact. Nasty place to go to work. |
Cannibal Kane
Cannibal Empire
4089
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:55:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why hello there OP.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
18
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 19:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Take "Mining Barge Level Whatever" out of your queue and throw in some combat skills. Station camp him for a change. |
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
242
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.
The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.
The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.
Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.
Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.
A better question would be; why do half of all carebear types quit within 6mos of starting to play Eve? I'll save you the tedious Google'ing .. it's because they get bored and unsub.
Have you ever PvP'ed? Yes, you just don't realize it. Have you ever placed a market order that was priced competitively? Have you ever warped out when someone was trying to get you to fight them?
Guess what? All of those things are PvP. Eve is PvP, regardless of what you tell yourself.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331004 - thank me later |
Orin Solette
Omamori Himari
Pandora Hearts
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 06:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
When I first played Eve, I joined a mining corp. I mined and did missions and that's it. Then we started to get wardecced by random small corps left and right. I was told to dock up and stay docked or leave corp and continue mining. I did as I was told. I was taught to be scared. It wasn't long before I quit Eve.
6 months later I saw an ad for Eve. It seemed really interesting and complex. And it was so open. Then I started to think to myself...
Why did I quit again?
Oh yeah... those war decs...
Umm... wait, why didn't I just fight back?
I didn't want to lose ships!
Wait... why do I care about losing pixels again?
I resubbed. And you know what? I'm still a carebear and I still suck a pvp.
But I'm not scared to defend myself anymore. I trained combat skills up some more that I needed to for missions anyway. I flew around in FW for a bit, died a LOT, but learned a lot about what PVP entails. Then I went back to carebearing with my newfound knowledge and skills. It's made the game a whole lot more fun and dynamic. In fact, sometimes I get the itch to just go get in trouble for the hell of it. Sure, the people who kill me mock me afterwards. My killboard is kinda embarrassing but it's not completely one sided anymore.
Just have fun with it. And if it's excessive then don't give them any content. Drop corp or just plain avoid them if you don't want to fight. It's not hard to do with the corp is so small.
In the end, they might catch you and kill you... but we're capsuleers. Jump into a fresh clone, dust yourself off, and continue where you left off. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2311
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Why hello there OP.
Sure took you long enough kane .... 
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Dilligafmofo
Sandman Plc
240
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 07:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
OP, everything you wish for is totally available to you.
Your every Eve desire is catered for.
It resides in an NPC corp.
The only cost to you for this hedonistic playstyle? The tax levied by the NPC corp.
If you want to shun the Eve taxman, so as to mission and mine undisturbed to create a wallet that will never be enough, you join a player made corp. Joining said corp comes with a few downsides. The ability to be wardecced is one of those downsides.
Pay the taxman or pay the penalty- only you can make this call. Don't complain when you reap the rewards and don't accept the penalties.
A war dec from a one man corp ------ Caldari frigates have your answer, look into them  |
Intar Medris
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
214
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 11:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Why hello there OP.
You are in trouble now OP. Kane loves people who complain about being wardecced. He shows it by hugging their ship with lasers, bullets, and missiles.
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen. |
Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 13:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Are there any other players, besides gankers, mercs and their alts, that will defend the current wardec mechanic?
;)
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1432
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 14:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mikael Menethil wrote:Are there any other players, besides gankers, mercs and their alts, that will defend the current wardec mechanic?
;)
the developers....
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1432
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 14:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Orin Solette wrote:When I first played Eve, I joined a mining corp. I mined and did missions and that's it. Then we started to get wardecced by random small corps left and right. I was told to dock up and stay docked or leave corp and continue mining. I did as I was told. I was taught to be scared. It wasn't long before I quit Eve.
6 months later I saw an ad for Eve. It seemed really interesting and complex. And it was so open. Then I started to think to myself...
Why did I quit again?
Oh yeah... those war decs...
Umm... wait, why didn't I just fight back?
I didn't want to lose ships!
Wait... why do I care about losing pixels again?
I resubbed. And you know what? I'm still a carebear and I still suck a pvp.
But I'm not scared to defend myself anymore. I trained combat skills up some more that I needed to for missions anyway. I flew around in FW for a bit, died a LOT, but learned a lot about what PVP entails. Then I went back to carebearing with my newfound knowledge and skills. It's made the game a whole lot more fun and dynamic. In fact, sometimes I get the itch to just go get in trouble for the hell of it. Sure, the people who kill me mock me afterwards. My killboard is kinda embarrassing but it's not completely one sided anymore.
Just have fun with it. And if it's excessive then don't give them any content. Drop corp or just plain avoid them if you don't want to fight. It's not hard to do with the corp is so small.
In the end, they might catch you and kill you... but we're capsuleers. Jump into a fresh clone, dust yourself off, and continue where you left off.
MASSIVE CONGRATULATIONS. You reborn as a true eve player. You understood the game!!!!
I have more respect for a real player with an embarrassing killboard than for a pristine killboard of someone that does not really play eve.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Tao Dolcino
Jolly Jumpers Squad
304
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 17:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
@OP : I'm a peaceful player who doesn't like to agress oher players.
That said, i accept and enjoy EVE as it is, and even if my main activity is to pve, i have learned to at least survive in hostile environment as well. It's fully part of the game, as much as raising your skills or wallet. There are plenty of solutions (a lot of good advices already posted), but you don't seem to wish to make the effort to learn them. Then stay in your station and cry.
Favoritism is good - CCP 2013 |
Domino Vyse
Rusty Spewns
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 14:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Fight back you nonce.
This.
I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone. |
Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
20
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 00:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Domino Vyse wrote:I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone.
Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1437
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 10:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jimmy O'Shanty wrote:Domino Vyse wrote:I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone. Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.
That is a missconception that is spread in eve. For example.. we are among the most dangerous high sec war dec groups. We are NOT going to let you go because you did not undock. THe more annoying you are the more likely we will keep the war going. Some groups we kept it for like 6 monhts. Others that interact and re respectful we are more likely to give them a break.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kathryn Painway
Just a Ride
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 01:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I'll just point out one more time for the record.
EVE is a PVP game. It's not a PVE game. It's designed / coded for one player to shoot another player. If you're trying to make EVE into a PVE game - you will fail. You are paying to play a PVP game - you need to understand that.
This whole thread makes me picture some dude with a pony saddle staring at a cat and saying the cat is all messed up. Don't most of the people playing this game play it for the PvE? (IE High Sec stuff)
I feel this game is neither PVP or PVE based but both. Many (factoring out miners and folks who want to get into industry full time) begin by learning PVE prior to wetting their whistle in PVP while other heartier folk jump right into PVP with no intent on carebearing. Carebears need combatants and combatants need carebears, it's a symbiotic relationship with the market place being the element that defines both sectors as parts of the whole. So in short, play this game any way you please just be aware of the other parts of the machine and how to best deal with them. |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Repeat 0ffenders
266
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 16:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
Awful corporation leadership is a far greater disservice to Eve's community. Removing struggle as a game mechanic is unhealthy because it allows bad leaders to continue to be terrible.
The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum
Reverberation Project
41
|
Posted - 2014.07.26 23:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
High sec repeat war deccs and the alliances that do them are actually good for the game when you really think about it.
New Eden is a harsh climate to call home, ganks, awox's, thieves, and wars abound, and thats just high security space. with the rise of these alliances you get something you really never had before. Incentive to leave high sec, even if only for 7 days to avoid these mercs. Sure you can sit in station and cry all day about it, but thats just weeding out the weak from the strong or the common from the crafty. You need to be more than average to really thrive in Eve. You cant just sit in station the second danger appears and then cry at it to go away, and theres a difference between that and tactically docking when a massive fleet tries to jump you.
90% or maybe a bit less percent wise, of merc corps will NOT cross the .4 line because they lose the ability to use meta-gaming in their fights. In low or null there is no neutral untouchable logi or ewar, no out of corp bump ship you cant touch because anyone can be shot freely with minimal consequences. And you can bring friends in without the CONCORD intervention or assistance declarations.
They also destroy ships and stop market stagnation, especially in the barge and hauler markets where the supply is high and the demand COULD remain low if they didn't die ( afterall most people dont buy more than 2 of the same type of hauler / barge if they use it regularly, they need to die to force them to buy another ). Gankers provide this same service and teach the valuable lesson of protecting your assets from others, something you need to know how to do in low or null.
On top of that high sec wars teach you ( or are supposed to ) to watch Local, Scout, Stay aligned, and use the watchlist. All valuable skills in the long run.
Ending the wall of text here i say this
The rise of the Mercenary Corps was one of the greatest changes to high sec CCP has made in a while, it helped give people reason to go to lowsec and beyond or even just try it there rather than sit in the chicken coup of high sec hoping a wolf doesn't steal one away in the night. And when you do finally leave that pen:
Welcome to The Real Eve
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Roland Fale
Spirits of Essence
Yulai Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 05:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
Your choices are extremely limited.
you can
1) try as best you can to support your activities within an NPC corporation
2) Find refuge in a much larger corp / alliance that operates primarily out of lowsec / nullsec
3) try to become a griefing focused player yourself. buy multiple combat focused accounts / characters. upgrade your PC and buy another 2 monitors.
Fighting back doesn't really work in most cases. A couple players with multiple accounts and a high skill-point stock will destroy many magnitudes their numbers of low skill & industrial focused pilots. This is fact - if it didn't work that way small dedicated wardec corps just wouldn't exist.
Eve really isn't a game that caters to individual skill in pvp in the traditional sense of 'What is gaming skill?' Traditionally popular online games require hand-eye coordination, fast reflexes, situational awareness, and multitasking. These skills in abundance count for approximately **** compared to the far more effective methodology of tactical knowledge, human resources management, patience, and investment (your time, your ISK, and your real world currency). Furthermore what accounts for "Eve Skill" is applied mostly in preparation and patience rather than action during an actual encounter. Once a ship is pointed in most small scale engagements the result tends to be a foregone conclusion. |
Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
136
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 20:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
Cool another rl combat veteran...
Since you are a vet and I am a vet then you should know that numbers do count so on the 1 and 2 man corps drop the mining lasers and go shoot that one guy. So two or 3 of you get your war deccer camped and the rest of you go mining. I learned that tactic in boot camp. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1658
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 06:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
I personally wouldn't admit to being a squishy target that won't shoot back even if the opposition is a single guy. Just sayin'.
I'm not sure what branch of which nation's military responds to attack or the threat of attack by letting the attack happen, refusing to defend itself even when they have numerical superiority and just generally disregarding the entire concept of force protection. In the US military we have these things called force protection conditions which you increase if an attack has occurred or is expected to occur, typically this involves arming additional personnel, stationing more armed watches etc.
If only somehow that concept could be applied to a computer game where it doesn't even matter if you get killed and where fighting is fun, vice terrifying. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1489
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 10:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Roland Fale wrote:Your choices are extremely limited.
you can
1) Dock up. Make your effective game-play strategy vs war declaration to "...Not Play the Game." (regardless of all the chestbeating going on this is what, pretty much, every corp does - either in the form of staying docked/ offline / or avoiding highsec all together)
2) try as best you can to support your activities within an NPC corporation
3) Find refuge in a much larger corp / alliance that operates primarily out of lowsec / nullsec
4) try to become a griefing focused player yourself. buy multiple combat focused accounts / characters. upgrade your PC and buy another 2 monitors.
Fighting back doesn't really work in most cases. A couple players with multiple accounts and a high skill-point stock will destroy many magnitudes their numbers of low skill & industrial focused pilots. This is fact - if it didn't work that way small dedicated wardec corps just wouldn't exist. Take a look at the overall wardec history kills /losses. You tend to find either 0 activity or a varying degree of destruction in favor of the aggressor.
Eve really isn't a game that caters to individual skill in pvp in the traditional sense of 'What is gaming skill?' Traditionally popular online games require hand-eye coordination, fast reflexes, situational awareness, and multitasking. These skills in abundance count for approximately **** compared to the far more effective methodology of tactical knowledge, human resources management, patience, and investment (your time, your ISK, and your real world currency). Furthermore what accounts for "Eve Skill" is applied mostly in preparation and patience rather than action during an actual encounter. Once a ship is pointed in most small scale engagements the result tends to be a foregone conclusion.
ALL WRONG!! ALL SO WRONG.
THe Only thing that works is fightign back. Is the only solution that will have a gain on the long term. The only solution that might give you more fun, teach you to enjoy the game and make you become less of a sitting duck on the future.
ANyone that does as this guy I quoted says, is doomed to be a failure in this game and to be stepped over forever.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1660
|
Posted - 2014.08.02 01:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
I think the more important part of fighting back is not that it makes the war end, it is that it supplies gameplay for the defender.
When your response to war is to not play the game for the duration of the war you're totally depriving yourself of gameplay in an attempt to deprive the aggressor of content. The entire game is driven by content created by players interacting and becoming involved in conflicts with each other. I don't know why people don't expect and plan for those conflicts.
|
Alder shiet
The Pheasant Pluckers
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.02 15:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Couple of easy steps for fighting low numbers of High Skilled toons.
1. Spend a day training ECM skills.
2. Undock everyone in cheap and cheerful ECM and drone frigates.
3. Learn to keep your distance out of scram range.
4. Jam and Tracking Disrupt while drones peck to death.
You may get a kill, you may get killed, but it will be a laugh either way and won't cost much. All you need is a few corpmates.
Have fun. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1660
|
Posted - 2014.08.02 20:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
ECM isn't the best option because it tends to force people to wait out their weapons timers which allows them to jump or dock which is a problem since 99% of engagements take place on gates or stations as they are the only natural choke points.
In a situation where the opponent is likely to attempt escape stuff like nuts and TDC are better. |
Alder shiet
The Pheasant Pluckers
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.03 08:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
True but extremely frustrating for the Uber War Deccers and good fun for the indie/decced corp. It's all about the fun, otherwise why log in. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1662
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 23:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
As one of the T3 flying, logistics at having war deers in question I can tell you right now that losing a legion is significantlyrics more annoying than being jammed, docking up then undocking in a dual ECCM fit and killing you. |
Esme Moya Mencken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
An option that hasn't been named...
There is an under-appreciated and somewhat controversial (but also sort of wonderful) alternative for small corps/corps that don't mind a quick disbanding:
Dissolve your corporation. Reform it seconds later with the same name (etc.). It costs 50m ISK to declare war. It costs 1.6m ISK to form a corporation (+ whatever for renting an HQ, posting a recruiting ad , etc). If you don't mind the 20 minute hassle of re-establishing your corporation, it's a lovely and troll-y response to try-hards attempting to inflate their killboards.
The ISK piece of it is sort of icing anyway, right? The guys dec'ing highsec mining corps don't care really about the cost of the dec. They also don't care really about making carebears better players. Carebears who don't want to fight and aren't skilled to fight, thus, have this little disappearing-reappearing trick as an option...for now. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
1361
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 21:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
The point is to hinder you.
Thorvade wrote:If I mission and mine that is my choice. // But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Spinning your ships is also your choice.
Thorvade wrote:Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
You're either paying in ISK, killmails, or lost playtime. And it's because you allow it. Imagine a gymnasium full of thousands of people, mostly crowded shoulder to shoulder. Now imagine them all pushing and shoving eachother to get more personal space. That's EVE Online. You're letting yourself get shoved, while refusing to shove back out of personal choice, and complaining that you're getting shoved. Shove back.
Thorvade wrote:Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
If a corp is going to break over a 1 man corp wardeccing them, or a newbie is gonna quit over losing a mining barge... then the corp would have broken and the newbie quit for any number of other reasons. Actually I think more people quit EVE due to engaging in boring solo PvE burnout than they do from getting griefed.
Thorvade wrote:And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
What you did in real life is not relevant to EVE.
Epic Space Cat |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
1361
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 21:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.
The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.
The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.
Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.
Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.
In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.
EVE is a sandbox, which means you are subject to non-consensual player interactions every time you undock. You wanting to play your game does not override them wanting to play the game their way. They take steps to play the game the way they want to - you can do the same.
Epic Space Cat |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
1361
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 21:43:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jimmy O'Shanty wrote:Domino Vyse wrote:I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone. Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.
When I was doing HiSec decs, the most fun decs were the ones where they fought back or set up traps to get me. I lost ships sometimes but had an enormous amount of fun.
Decs where the targets try to "deny me content" by staying docked resulted in me employing the same tactic; keeping the dec going and if I was particularly annoyed by the corp, I would stay logged in and docked even when I was not at the computer so they could never feel safe to play (and when they did get used to my presence and undocked to run a mission, I was right there to get them. :) )
Epic Space Cat |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1565
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 23:11:45 -
[61] - Quote
As a corp CEO a wardec is mighty usefull. It indicates very well who can deal with such hostilities and adapt, and who will go idle with apathy when put under video game pressure. It is also a good way to keep vets from growing too lenient with their security measures and travel fittings, and one hell of an incentive to train up for covert transport ships. The business end of the game requires some cunning too, marketplaces are deadly when there's a gang war going on!
There's a funny thing going on with wardecs (or cloaky campers for that matter). The victim could be having a far better time if he adapted his playstyle, and improved his security measures each war. For instance, we base in lowsec so we treat wardeccers with a bit of disdain, while we have to swallow a hard nut when one of us gets his ass kicked at the mall. We have to deliberately form up and go hi hisec to fight these wars. Hence only grudge-type wars (as opposed to random hub ganking) truly impacts our fun. A dec is only a formality in such wars and rarely even happen.
On the flipside we live in a dangerous environment, one that dictates a non-AFK mentality, and being a nice dude from time to time and handling a courier contract for your 2m SP friend who can't fly a Blockade runner. Or undocking your hero PVP ship when a ratter (with the decency of being in fleet-on comms) gets agressed. Conlict makes other people valuable. That's a cornerstone of the game, and hardly pointless. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1727
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 01:27:19 -
[62] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Decs where the targets try to "deny me content" by staying docked resulted in me employing the same tactic; keeping the dec going and if I was particularly annoyed by the corp, I would stay logged in and docked even when I was not at the computer so they could never feel safe to play (and when they did get used to my presence and undocked to run a mission, I was right there to get them. :) )
I started doing this a while ago too. It seems like at the point where you have sufficient income that war costs are minimally limiting for you then the default course of action for a target that refuses to undock for a week is to keep the war going for longer.
The typical end result of members remaining docked up for multiple weeks is corps dropping out of alliance and players dropping out of corp, which is a win. |
Esme Moya Mencken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 01:59:40 -
[63] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Decs where the targets try to "deny me content" by staying docked resulted in me employing the same tactic; keeping the dec going and if I was particularly annoyed by the corp, I would stay logged in and docked even when I was not at the computer so they could never feel safe to play (and when they did get used to my presence and undocked to run a mission, I was right there to get them. :) )
See, and if I were the target of such a war, I'd really enjoy dissolving and reforming corporation (and when you realized the tactic and decided to declare war again, I'd be right there...to dissolve and reform again. :) ) |
Wraymond Arji
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 21:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
from the start, let me admit flat out.. I didn't bother to read if anyone else posted this or not, so no flaming. The wars may seem pointless to you, OP; but to the declaring party they serve a purpose to at least provide content. Therefore, ALL wars are of purpose and legit per game mechanics and CCP's design. EVE was never meant to be WOW in space. It's not even a game to be quite honest. It is an MMO sandbox for emergent experiences. The idea is that EVERYTHING is complicated and they have already over-simplified too many things to bring in customers instead of sticking true to form IMO, but that is the nature of it since CCP went public. Bottom line is that it is about overcoming challenges, not whining until the challenges are made easier to lower the bar to YOUR level. Step up YOUR game to meet the bar. |
Wraymond Arji
Chaotic Tranquility
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 21:29:48 -
[65] - Quote
from the start, let me admit flat out.. I didn't bother to read if anyone else posted this or not, so no flaming. The wars may seem pointless to you, OP; but to the declaring party they serve a purpose to at least provide content. Therefore, ALL wars are of purpose and legit per game mechanics and CCP's design. EVE was never meant to be WOW in space. It's not even a game to be quite honest. It is an MMO sandbox for emergent experiences. The idea is that EVERYTHING is complicated and they have already over-simplified too many things to bring in customers instead of sticking true to form IMO, but that is the nature of it since CCP went public. Bottom line is that it is about overcoming challenges, not whining until the challenges are made easier to lower the bar to YOUR level. Step up YOUR game to meet the bar.
EDIT: If you can't do that on your own, it is designed to be where you then do that by bringing friends. Either way, there are plenty of ways to do just about anything in EVE. The most annoying thing I keep coming across is the widespread fear of doing anything differently, or trying new things. NOTHING in this game is linear and multiple alternate paths can all lead to the same outcome. Please stop begging that things get nerfed just because a small percentage can't figure out one of the multiple ways to get past a challenge. |
Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
198
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 09:31:06 -
[66] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
Im tired of pointless posts. I also have served in real combat in two wars. You should know that wars never serve any real purpose to begin with. At least in Eve when you dont want to pvp in a pvp game you could just uninstall. If you just want to mine and be left alone then play Minecraft. It has unlimited rocks you can smash and collect.
|
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
814
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 16:47:56 -
[67] - Quote
Shameless plug....
There is always the 4th option...
Drop corp, buy cheap PvP frigs, join Red vs Blue for the duration of the war and learn to fight a little.
One of my alliance leads from a long while ago made this suggestion when I was a noob and making the same complaint as the OP.
Some 6000+ kills later, I realized I enjoy the PvP aspect of eve.
A less shameless plug option... Drop corp and relocate. Eve's high sec is vast. Get out of the fommon caldari missioning grounds. You can find some great mission/mining hubs where even CODE does not tread that are still part of continous high sec. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 00:32:34 -
[68] - Quote
Just drop and reform corp and brag over your 30-1 economic win. If you are too big to do that, and you still can't defend yourself against 1 man griefer corps, then you don't deserve to exist. |
Fret Thiesant
The Imperial LansDrahd
LOADED-DICE
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:56:08 -
[69] - Quote
Eh Hi-Sec war decs.....really not fun.
First thing is to never fight on station. No reason too. You won't be breaking the tanks of the people you are fighting in under a minute realistically. You've not the combat skills for it. So make use of your insta!
Second thing is to pick a ship to fly in combat. As a mining corp you really should just go with Vexors. You should have good shield and drone skills already. No fuss topping them off and getting to be able to fly the mid size Gal drone boats.
So there you go. Make a little Vexor fleet (6-10) and don't fight off of station. Don't fight if you're lacking numbers. Don't fight on station!!! Don't let your fleet get kited out when you're off station (1-2 man corp will either set up for absolute brick tank for station games or kiting fit).
Far as not fighting there's no real place in Eve people will not be trying to blow you up, I would suggest if you are absolutely opposed to it, join one of the Null power blocs indy corps. Make sure they base fairly deep in. Don't show up with a lot of assets in case it is a scam.
Luck |
Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:38:09 -
[70] - Quote
Hmm, lets see the War Dec from a funny side.
The 2 man Corp pays to Concord to start a war. That is logical, war is money.
The fun part is: you pay the double at Concord to make them KOS from concord.
This could be over and over and each one of Corps doubles the amount to insane amounts.
|
Jegrey Dozer
Ruatha Holdings
38
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 11:42:18 -
[71] - Quote
There already exists a way to completely dodge a wardec.
A solution that many of OP's would-be gankers and wardeccers and their ilk have vehemently tried to have CCP brand as an exploit so that it can not be practiced.
It involves creating a password protected channel exclusive to corp members so that everyone stays in contact, followed by every member dropping corp. Once the war is over, everyone rejoins the corp.
There is no reason why all members can not conduct their normal EvE activities while in an NPC corp.
The only reason I could imagine High Sec players can complain about wars is if they are completely unimaginative about what their options are.
To the OP:
Do not even begin to blame the low retention rate of new players because of wars in High Sec. That is bombastic and very wrong. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1812
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 09:56:36 -
[72] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Xuixien wrote:Decs where the targets try to "deny me content" by staying docked resulted in me employing the same tactic; keeping the dec going and if I was particularly annoyed by the corp, I would stay logged in and docked even when I was not at the computer so they could never feel safe to play (and when they did get used to my presence and undocked to run a mission, I was right there to get them. :) ) I started doing this a while ago too. It seems like at the point where you have sufficient income that war costs are minimally limiting for you then the default course of action for a target that refuses to undock for a week is to keep the war going for longer. The typical end result of members remaining docked up for multiple weeks is corps dropping out of alliance and players dropping out of corp, which is a win.
Then just undock, get into cheap ships and FIGHT. Both sides get more fun than on the docked option. How hard is that to grasp.
We for example more than once stopped a war with targets that got our respect when they asked for a time so they would not collapse. But if you whine, make threads like this etc.. we shall never stop.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1812
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 09:58:18 -
[73] - Quote
Jegrey Dozer wrote:
Do not even begin to blame the low retention rate of new players because of wars in High Sec. That is bombastic and very wrong.
True, most wardec groups do not wardec corps of new people. BEcause they usually are too small or flying too cheap stuff to be worth the effort.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1812
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 10:00:01 -
[74] - Quote
Esme Moya Mencken wrote:An option that hasn't been named...
There is an under-appreciated and somewhat controversial (but also sort of wonderful) alternative for small corps/corps that don't mind a quick disbanding:
Dissolve your corporation. Reform it seconds later with the same name (etc.). It costs 50m ISK to declare war. It costs 1.6m ISK to form a corporation (+ whatever for renting an HQ, posting a recruiting ad , etc). If you don't mind the 20 minute hassle of re-establishing your corporation, it's a lovely and troll-y response to try-hards attempting to inflate their killboards.
The ISK piece of it is sort of icing anyway, right? The guys dec'ing highsec mining corps don't care really about the cost of the dec. They also don't care really about making carebears better players. Carebears who don't want to fight and aren't skilled to fight, thus, have this little disappearing-reappearing trick as an option...for now.
Dissolving corp and reforming under same name with same people CAN BE PETITIONED. Keep doing that... see what will happen someday.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1154
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 10:36:15 -
[75] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Esme Moya Mencken wrote:An option that hasn't been named...
There is an under-appreciated and somewhat controversial (but also sort of wonderful) alternative for small corps/corps that don't mind a quick disbanding:
Dissolve your corporation. Reform it seconds later with the same name (etc.). It costs 50m ISK to declare war. It costs 1.6m ISK to form a corporation (+ whatever for renting an HQ, posting a recruiting ad , etc). If you don't mind the 20 minute hassle of re-establishing your corporation, it's a lovely and troll-y response to try-hards attempting to inflate their killboards.
The ISK piece of it is sort of icing anyway, right? The guys dec'ing highsec mining corps don't care really about the cost of the dec. They also don't care really about making carebears better players. Carebears who don't want to fight and aren't skilled to fight, thus, have this little disappearing-reappearing trick as an option...for now. Dissolving corp and reforming under same name with same people CAN BE PETITIONED. Keep doing that... see what will happen someday.
AFAIK, CCPs response to all things high sec war is, if the mechanics allow you to avoid a war, then its ok. Just as if the mechanics allow you to waste your time decing people who dont have 2 rifters to rub together, that is also ok. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1812
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:33:03 -
[76] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Esme Moya Mencken wrote:An option that hasn't been named...
There is an under-appreciated and somewhat controversial (but also sort of wonderful) alternative for small corps/corps that don't mind a quick disbanding:
Dissolve your corporation. Reform it seconds later with the same name (etc.). It costs 50m ISK to declare war. It costs 1.6m ISK to form a corporation (+ whatever for renting an HQ, posting a recruiting ad , etc). If you don't mind the 20 minute hassle of re-establishing your corporation, it's a lovely and troll-y response to try-hards attempting to inflate their killboards.
The ISK piece of it is sort of icing anyway, right? The guys dec'ing highsec mining corps don't care really about the cost of the dec. They also don't care really about making carebears better players. Carebears who don't want to fight and aren't skilled to fight, thus, have this little disappearing-reappearing trick as an option...for now. Dissolving corp and reforming under same name with same people CAN BE PETITIONED. Keep doing that... see what will happen someday. AFAIK, CCPs response to all things high sec war is, if the mechanics allow you to avoid a war, then its ok. Just as if the mechanics allow you to waste your time decing people who dont have 2 rifters to rub together, that is also ok.
Remakign the exact same name with the same members get you a warning at least . I know becuse my CEO of my first corp did that and got the warnign and was told to never do it again.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Zylithi
Immortalis Fratres Vacui
Legio immortales CXCI
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 05:51:16 -
[77] - Quote
I used to run one of these one man wardec wonder outfits, and I can tell you a thing or two.
You need to position your corp as one who can defend itself. People choose their risk appropriately. If you look like hardasses, they won't bother. If you look squishy, people will look deeper. By flying squishy ships, utterly failing other wars, and other things, people will dog pile on you really quickly. Some dumbass in an old corp of mine completely botched a Paladin fit and got the thing killed, the kill mail got spread around and suddenly we had 7 wars (900 vs. 80). Don't be that person.
If your corp is purely industrial, there is literally nothing wrong that that! However, to survive as a corp, you need to participate in the environment, and not rag on about it. You guys are industrial, you should easily be able to afford mercs. They usually come cheap, 500mil is normally the going rate, but may be higher depending on the target. If your corp literally cannot afford that price, even if each of you contributes a little, it may be wise to consider disbanding. 10 guys missioning for one hour can make that isk.
Oh, and stay out of the "merc contracts" channel unless you're looking for a null/lowsec contract. They all talk to each other. I once asked one of those corps for help and they decked us just because we talked to them.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1812
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 16:19:59 -
[78] - Quote
Zylithi wrote:
Oh, and stay out of the "merc contracts" channel unless you're looking for a null/lowsec contract. They all talk to each other. I once asked one of those corps for help and they decked us just because we talked to them.
Complete lies. Most of our work is exactly assistign against other wars, including other merc groups. I do not think any of the relevent groups have not yet been wardecced by us in contracts.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
18
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 15:03:23 -
[79] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Zylithi wrote:
Oh, and stay out of the "merc contracts" channel unless you're looking for a null/lowsec contract. They all talk to each other. I once asked one of those corps for help and they decked us just because we talked to them.
Complete lies. Most of our work is exactly assistign against other wars, including other merc groups. I do not think any of the relevent groups have not yet been wardecced by us in contracts.
The Merc contracts channel is legitimate. The Mercenary Corporations may talk to each other, but they also relentlessly war dec each other. If you want to hire someone, dont go in there crying about how your Orca got ganked. Find a Diplomat for a reputable group, and private convo them.
Badman |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1727
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 23:12:09 -
[80] - Quote
People requesting mercs in Merc Contracts only have problems if they want something unreasonable or aren't serious to begin with. Also people in the same channel are obviouslygoing to communicate with each other some of the time, that does not mean they won't take contracts against each other and approach those contracts in a professional manner. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
145
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 21:46:27 -
[81] - Quote
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:If it cannot defend itself against a singular pilot, the only thing that's pointless is the existance of that corporation.
Not a matter of defending ones self when the target doesnt undock during your peak time but then when people log off the target undocks for an easy kill, which if he does come to attack he probably has an army of logi.
Been there, done that, kept training my massive hoard of skills
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
Cattegirn
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 05:54:02 -
[82] - Quote
Eve as a PVE game isn't that great, but if you want to play it like X you could check the lore. I thought the idea was that those big (i.e., NPC) corps were the ones responsible for the existence of high-security, and their protective militia is called Concord. You work for them, you get their protection, and you pay their tax rate. For 10% of your bounties (and just bounties...) you get the T1000 or that shape changing ****** from T4 manifesting out of the vacuum for a guaranteed kill of your aggressor. That's not a bad ******* deal.
If the 10% tax rate the NPC massives offer is too high, and you want to go it on your own, you have to become a small state, and field your own. They pay for it, so if you aren't going to be in their club you don't get the protection.
|
Trey Kutoi
Nyarlthotep Holdings Ltd.
5
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 17:04:36 -
[83] - Quote
If the war is pointless, why not just warp away? without a point, its not like it can stop you. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 18:22:26 -
[84] - Quote
The first thing you have to do is become hard to pin down as a corp, do not stay in one area of hisec or even in hisec itself, have operations in low sec and NPC 0.0, try to link up with another corp that has a WH and support them for use of their hole at times. Make it so that the hisec war deccer can not sit there in a station and camp you there, make him spend his time chasing you are round Eve or contemplating whether he should follow you into dangerous areas of space where his RR can be shot before it even has an impact.
I have had some great fun over the years, one example is when moving a guy into Cloud Ring, I noted a guy setup to gate camp, he had a neutral alt in the hisec system and was warping a Myrmidon to the gate when people came to the lowsec gate. So I got my corp mate to be to keep warping to the gate than back to the station, after five goes of this the guy logged off in disgust. another time being chased in NPC Delve by one loud mouthed idiot, I made them chase me for hours by setting up safes that looked like I was in a belt from the use of the D-Scan, then when he got bored of that after a couple of hours and brought in a prober, I then used the cloak . The key thing is that you have to get your players to think on how they play the game during a war dec, treat it as an annoy them more then you. Of course there are some who will stay at it and those you will just have to make it not worth their while by operating in space they do not dare go near.
So what about missions in NPC 0.0 or low sec, what about low-sec ninja mining, what about doing some low sec and 0.0 exploration, what about doing some WH sites. While doing this make sure that you have people logged on with alts that watch what he does, get a feel for his actions, even lose a couple of ships at the start, find out what they do, then set your trap, loggoffski's are your best bet, also use ECM and snsor dampening boats and long ponting and web ships to keep him immobile when you do this, do all what I say and you will not be bothered.
It is frustrating and yes it does drive away players, I for one got fed up being cloaky BLOP's dropped for 6 months in Stain, however I had made a rod for my own back in that I was the bait for them to camp while others were in other systems doing their things, that was screwed when someone told the camper that and he upped his game, but here is the rub, sit back and work out what you can do and their parameters then act accordingly and do not be a static target unless you want to be.
Good luck and thanks for your service.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 09:06:29 -
[85] - Quote
My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1829
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 11:29:32 -
[86] - Quote
Heather Austrene wrote:My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody.
cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 12:31:21 -
[87] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Heather Austrene wrote:My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody. cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec.
Perhaps the issue is more to do with your target selection..
Ella's Snack bar
|
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 14:37:47 -
[88] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec.
If anything this proves my point, if you are spending billions in war decs you are just spam deccing to many people. Making it costlier to conduct large numbers of concurrent wars would force you to select particularly large or stupid corps, or corps you know might put up a fight rather than disbanding.
But you are right, although unpleasant and frustrating, it is easy to avoid war decs. Perhaps along with my suggested nerf, a change could be made that you can't avoid being a war target by dropping out of corp. That instead you remain a vaild war target until the week runs out no matter what corp you run to. This would help prevent corps disintegrating due to war weariness as well.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1733
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 17:15:54 -
[89] - Quote
Heather Austrene wrote:If anything this proves my point, if you are spending billions in war decs you are just spam deccing to many people. Making it costlier to conduct large numbers of concurrent wars would force you to select particularly large or stupid corps, or corps you know might put up a fight rather than disbanding.
You might think so at a glance, but it's really not the case.
People already do select particularly large, stupid corps and corps they expect might put up a fight, those are the exact selection criteria that people use when declaring wars (unless they have a more specific reason obviously). However the current state of highsec is such that even when picking targets based on those critera you need to declare war on as many of those groups that you can reasonably afford to just to provide targets.
Changes made to the war system have had a strange affect. The massive increase in the base cost of wars totally eliminated small, unskilled wardec groups, so there aren't "low level" aggressors anymore. This means corps don't get wardecced at all until they reach a critical mass where they become a target for more experienced, better funded people and subsequently have no freaking idea what to do about it. At the same time the ally system came about, which by serving as an advert for a free wars against the aggressor totally eliminated the use of wars by anyone who is not a dedicated PVP group. The result is highsec groups that don't exist specifically for highsec PVP have no exposure to PVP until the people they have to deal with areway beyond their skill and experience level, subsequently they don't consider it a normal, fun part of the game. So when wars happen they hide.
The lack of good targets makes running dedicated wardec corps an alliances extremely expensive, which again discourages start-ups, so people interested in highsec PVP join established groups, which makes those groups more powerful, which discourages highsec groups from fighting back, which makes them need to declare more wars in order to provide more targets.
It's a ecological problem, and it's self perpetuating. It's bad for everyone because it results in huge costs to us wardec outfits and it results in other highsec groups constantly being at war with one group or another. The solution is not "nerf wardecs" we've been nerfing wardecs and that's what lead us here. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
336
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 20:53:54 -
[90] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
It's a ecological problem, and it's self perpetuating. It's bad for everyone because it results in huge costs to us wardec outfits and it results in other highsec groups constantly being at war with one group or another. The solution is not "nerf wardecs" we've been nerfing wardecs and that's what lead us here.
I'm gonna chime in with the view of one of the "other highsec groups" that is constantly at war with one group or another. You are totally correct with your view of the current ecosystem. My alliance has been pretty much constantly dec'd since we left null and moved to HS in August. I'm sure theres one reason or another in terms of in game motivation.
One piece of advice I keep seeing is that people should undock and fight back. Theres really no point to the Indy corp doing it in the majority of cases. My own alliances experience shows that. We've killed Rattlesnakes, pods, T3s, falcons. We're still perma-deccd. We can be seen putting a 12 domi blob with AHAC tackle, falcons, and logi support on the field, we still get dec'd. The monthly subcap losses my alliance takes don't come anywhere near putting us in danger. The losses we inflict wouldn't put any organized PvP group in any danger of collapsing either though. If anything undocking has encouraged more decs on us and if that is the consequence of fighting back,successfully or not, why would an Indy corp undock at all?
Theres no way for the newer Indy Corp to come out ahead whether they undock or not. Thats single biggest thing that needs to change IMO. Dedicated PVPers can celebrate hitting their goals in KMs, fun fights, etc. but if your goal is to get back to doing Indy work from HS the mechanics are not in your favor. I don't think a simple nerf or buff to any one thing fixes this. War dec mechanics need a redesign from the ground up.
|
Typher Sloan
Racoon's with Lightsabers
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 21:42:33 -
[91] - Quote
There should be a cool off period of atleast a couple weeks. If a person plays this game to mine or mission, it should be there right to do so. Instead people are forced to play the game like someone else wants them to, or not play at all. High sec players especially take a cut on loot profits as it is. They shouldn't suffer griefers as well. |
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 22:22:43 -
[92] - Quote
I see the point made by Vimsy, and so it leads me to agree that the highsec wardec system is broken in such a way that it isn't good for either side and need to be looked at afresh as suggested. Perhaps encouraging smaller corps to wardec by making the cost of war scaled according to the size of the corp doing the deccing would encourage more amateur wardeccers and more even conflicts. It has even crossed my mind as a one man corp to wardec someone just for the hell of it, but it doesn't seem that my one man corp should pay as much as a 150 strong corp.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1736
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 04:13:36 -
[93] - Quote
It didn't used to be this broken. It wasn't this broken until they "fixed" it in Inferno. Prior to that the only major problem was the ability of corps to join an alliance and instantly leave again to shed wars for free and that wasn't a problem until CCP decided that after years of that being considered an exploit that it wasn't an exploit anymore.
The system went from being largely fine with a number of highly specific problems to being a totally lopsided mess overnight. The worst problem which was the cost scaling math got addressed, but that wasn't the only thing.
As it turns out designing a war system that massively favors the defender and makes their use prohibitively expensive and dangerous to the average Joe was a terrible idea. Mechanics should be designed with the intent to make them usable and accessible to people interested in them. With wars the exact opposite is the case. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1840
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 08:22:34 -
[94] - Quote
Heather Austrene wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec. If anything this proves my point, if you are spending billions in war decs you are just spam deccing to many people. Making it costlier to conduct large numbers of concurrent wars would force you to select particularly large or stupid corps, or corps you know might put up a fight rather than disbanding. But you are right, although unpleasant and frustrating, it is easy to avoid war decs. Perhaps along with my suggested nerf, a change could be made that you can't avoid being a war target by dropping out of corp. That instead you remain a vaild war target until the week runs out no matter what corp you run to. This would help prevent corps disintegrating due to war weariness as well.
NOpe. We spend Billions because each war can cost half a bil And you need to have at lEAST 20 times more WT than you have members if you wnt to each one have at least some chance to get into cobmat every day.
It is jsut th enormal ratio forpredators and pray. YOu cannot have a falcon survive with a single dove in the region. THey need a hundred or more inthe region to keep a supply and not starve or destroy the food population.
IF we woudl need tto select jsut 3-4 targets,t hen War targets woudl be worthless, because no way we could have enough targets to have a chance of doing ANYTHIGN during a weekend.
IF the average playerwas not a coward chicken, then maybe we woudl not need so many wars.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1840
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 08:23:31 -
[95] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Heather Austrene wrote:My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody. cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec. Perhaps the issue is more to do with your target selection..
Noits related to MATH. I know.. an advance concept to some here. But you NEed to have a LOT of prey .. many times the number of predators if you want an ecosystem to work.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1736
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:35:50 -
[96] - Quote
Typed on a phone much? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:39:24 -
[97] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Heather Austrene wrote:My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody. cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec. Perhaps the issue is more to do with your target selection.. Noits related to MATH. I know.. an advance concept to some here. But you NEed to have a LOT of prey .. many times the number of predators if you want an ecosystem to work.
Like correct punctuation
The point is understandable, on the basis that you are going for any kill, a fair chunk of them will be naive people who carry on as normal or take risks that they should not, if that is what you want then your scatter gun approach is what you need to do. I also know that you guys do go after more able targets who fight back.
But if you are after kills on stupid or naive people then you have to spend billions, as I said the issue is with your target selection, its pure maths as you say.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1841
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:42:08 -
[98] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:
It's a ecological problem, and it's self perpetuating. It's bad for everyone because it results in huge costs to us wardec outfits and it results in other highsec groups constantly being at war with one group or another. The solution is not "nerf wardecs" we've been nerfing wardecs and that's what lead us here.
I'm gonna chime in with the view of one of the "other highsec groups" that is constantly at war with one group or another. You are totally correct with your view of the current ecosystem. My alliance has been pretty much constantly dec'd since we left null and moved to HS in August. I'm sure theres one reason or another in terms of in game motivation. One piece of advice I keep seeing is that people should undock and fight back. Theres really no point to the Indy corp doing it in the majority of cases. My own alliances experience shows that. We've killed Rattlesnakes, pods, T3s, falcons. We're still perma-deccd. We can be seen putting a 12 domi blob with AHAC tackle, falcons, and logi support on the field, we still get dec'd. The monthly subcap losses my alliance takes don't come anywhere near putting us in danger. The losses we inflict wouldn't put any organized PvP group in any danger of collapsing either though. If anything undocking has encouraged more decs on us and if that is the consequence of fighting back,successfully or not, why would an Indy corp undock at all? Theres no way for the newer Indy Corp to come out ahead whether they undock or not. Thats single biggest thing that needs to change IMO. Dedicated PVPers can celebrate hitting their goals in KMs, fun fights, etc. but if your goal is to get back to doing Indy work from HS the mechanics are not in your favor. I don't think a simple nerf or buff to any one thing fixes this. War dec mechanics need a redesign from the ground up.
If you kill things from these groups they tend to drop the wars because all the merc groups need a clean killboard. At least the groups that pursue you out of the jita amarr pipe do.
Also.. if you can fight back like you say.. why not enjoy this game , that is completely geared towards PVP and DO FIGHT?
You are not supposed to go back to doign ONLY indy stuff. You are supposed to work a bit liek in 0.0 where you need intel channels and when war dec pilots come closer your indy pilots are warned and your forces scramble to defend.
NO one is entitled to playing all by itself on his own pocket of imagination in this game.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:48:44 -
[99] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:It didn't used to be this broken. It wasn't this broken until they "fixed" it in Inferno. Prior to that the only major problem was the ability of corps to join an alliance and instantly leave again to shed wars for free and that wasn't a problem until CCP decided that after years of that being considered an exploit that it wasn't an exploit anymore.
The system went from being largely fine with a number of highly specific problems to being a totally lopsided mess overnight. The worst problem which was the cost scaling math got addressed, but that wasn't the only thing.
As it turns out designing a war system that massively favors the defender and makes their use prohibitively expensive and dangerous to the average Joe was a terrible idea. Mechanics should be designed with the intent to make them usable and accessible to people interested in them. With wars the exact opposite is the case.
At the end of this week I re-subbed as Phoebe is just around the corner, yay!!!! Which deals with one of my issues in terms of Eve, its not the end game to improve things but its a start. When I logged on one of my friends had a war dec someone seeing an off-line POS decided to dec him, so I offered to help for 1 ISK. At this point his POS's are all fueled and setup to defend and the war dec has been live for 2 days and nothing, he has not even needed to accept my help. And there I was hoping for a bit of hisec fun before heading to deep 0.0 
One of the issues before was that you war decc'd a single corp who had no chance, now they can ask friends to help and in some cases this produces content, perhaps it does not scale up very well against professional and very able war dec alliances/corps like you, but at the lower level it should produce small gang combat.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1841
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:49:19 -
[100] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Heather Austrene wrote:My opinion. Many if not most wardeccers prey on noob corps. I think wars make a lot of players get frustrated and quit the game. In my short time playing the two corps I have joined got wardecced, everyone stopped playing, and I was left the choice of trying to fight by myself with no experience or assistance or quit the corp or stop playing the game. If the wardec wasn't something that would last indefinitely, I probably would have stayed and road it out, but the last corp is still wardecced after several weeks.
I do not think that highsec wars should be eliminated, but I think they should be nerfed. Right now wardecs are cheap and easy to declare. There is almost no negative to the aggressor at all when wardeccing a carebear corp. One of the corps that declared war on us has 150 simultaneous wars at the same time. I know this is a game, but in the real world declaring war has major consequences political and economic, perhaps there could be a temporary sec status loss to the corp for each war they declare, and/or the cost of declaring to increase for each additional simultaneous war. And also cost progressively more for each additional week the war is extended. This way a corp would have to be a little choosy in who they declare war on rather than just declaring war on everybody. cheap? We spend SEVERAL BILLIONS per week. And most of the targets just disband. If somethign is easy.. is to AVOID the wardec. Perhaps the issue is more to do with your target selection.. Noits related to MATH. I know.. an advance concept to some here. But you NEed to have a LOT of prey .. many times the number of predators if you want an ecosystem to work. Like correct punctuation The point is understandable, on the basis that you are going for any kill, a fair chunk of them will be naive people who carry on as normal or take risks that they should not, if that is what you want then your scatter gun approach is what you need to do. I also know that you guys do go after more able targets who fight back. But if you are after kills on stupid or naive people then you have to spend billions, as I said the issue is with your target selection, its pure maths as you say.
We need both types of targets. IF we keep only the contracts we collapse our playerbase, because most of the day there will be nothign to do. So we have basically 3 types of wars, Bulk wars, so that there is alway somethign to do and to make money, these include groups of shiny missions runenrs, shiny incursion runners and other targets taht can drop billions in a kill and help us pay our bills. Conrtact wars, were we are paid to make certain groups suffer and we do nto care if they are new or not. And For fight wars, were we have 1 or 2 mercenary groups and/or low sec fight groups in war so we have good fights.
We also cannto keep the BEST wartargets under war forever, because they woudl collapse, and we prefer to farm them. We frequently give a bgreak to those groups so they can recover (as long as they do not start whiny threads in the forums about how wardec systems are broken, then we elevate the war to holy war level and crush their souls)
So we need all types of targets. What eve needs is better instruction to pilots. Its impressive how most do not even know that other players can war scramble them. That is a failure by CCP on their tutorials.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1841
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:51:37 -
[101] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:It didn't used to be this broken. It wasn't this broken until they "fixed" it in Inferno. Prior to that the only major problem was the ability of corps to join an alliance and instantly leave again to shed wars for free and that wasn't a problem until CCP decided that after years of that being considered an exploit that it wasn't an exploit anymore.
The system went from being largely fine with a number of highly specific problems to being a totally lopsided mess overnight. The worst problem which was the cost scaling math got addressed, but that wasn't the only thing.
As it turns out designing a war system that massively favors the defender and makes their use prohibitively expensive and dangerous to the average Joe was a terrible idea. Mechanics should be designed with the intent to make them usable and accessible to people interested in them. With wars the exact opposite is the case. At the end of this week I re-subbed as Phoebe is just around the corner, yay!!!! Which deals with one of my issues in terms of Eve, its not the end game to improve things but its a start. When I logged on one of my friends had a war dec someone seeing an off-line POS decided to dec him, so I offered to help for 1 ISK. At this point his POS's are all fueled and setup to defend and the war dec has been live for 2 days and nothing, he has not even needed to accept my help. And there I was hoping for a bit of hisec fun before heading to deep 0.0 One of the issues before was that you war decc'd a single corp who had no chance, now they can ask friends to help and in some cases this produces content, perhaps it does not scale up very well against professional and very able war dec alliances/corps like you, but at the lower level it should produce small gang combat.
I would wait a bit more to celebrate, most war dec groups do not go after their war targets onthe first day or 2 of the war, when they are more prone to just stay docked.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 09:55:31 -
[102] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Toriessian wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:
It's a ecological problem, and it's self perpetuating. It's bad for everyone because it results in huge costs to us wardec outfits and it results in other highsec groups constantly being at war with one group or another. The solution is not "nerf wardecs" we've been nerfing wardecs and that's what lead us here.
I'm gonna chime in with the view of one of the "other highsec groups" that is constantly at war with one group or another. You are totally correct with your view of the current ecosystem. My alliance has been pretty much constantly dec'd since we left null and moved to HS in August. I'm sure theres one reason or another in terms of in game motivation. One piece of advice I keep seeing is that people should undock and fight back. Theres really no point to the Indy corp doing it in the majority of cases. My own alliances experience shows that. We've killed Rattlesnakes, pods, T3s, falcons. We're still perma-deccd. We can be seen putting a 12 domi blob with AHAC tackle, falcons, and logi support on the field, we still get dec'd. The monthly subcap losses my alliance takes don't come anywhere near putting us in danger. The losses we inflict wouldn't put any organized PvP group in any danger of collapsing either though. If anything undocking has encouraged more decs on us and if that is the consequence of fighting back,successfully or not, why would an Indy corp undock at all? Theres no way for the newer Indy Corp to come out ahead whether they undock or not. Thats single biggest thing that needs to change IMO. Dedicated PVPers can celebrate hitting their goals in KMs, fun fights, etc. but if your goal is to get back to doing Indy work from HS the mechanics are not in your favor. I don't think a simple nerf or buff to any one thing fixes this. War dec mechanics need a redesign from the ground up. If you kill things from these groups they tend to drop the wars because all the merc groups need a clean killboard. At least the groups that pursue you out of the jita amarr pipe do. Also.. if you can fight back like you say.. why not enjoy this game , that is completely geared towards PVP and DO FIGHT? You are not supposed to go back to doign ONLY indy stuff. You are supposed to work a bit liek in 0.0 where you need intel channels and when war dec pilots come closer your indy pilots are warned and your forces scramble to defend. NO one is entitled to playing all by itself on his own pocket of imagination in this game.
In 0.0 people just dock up and get safe, though there are some that fleet up and go after the attackers, the alliances I was in normally went after the attackers. The issue is that the more his corp fights the more people who are starved of content war dec his corp, whose main focus is industry, so what happens his corp that fights back loses a large chunk of their industry players and starts losing their capability. Its like anything if you over do it then it will break, its like when the CFC dropped a large super fleet on IRC in Cobalt Edge on the station timer, when IRC had a carrier fleet there to save teh station, everyone realised that they had no chance to fight that and just melted away.
If you keep punishing the indy corp that fights back with more decs then they will die, its as simple as that. Its like over fishing basically...
EDIT: I see you give breaks on your post above, very wise, but others do not and seeing people fighting back dogpile on them
EDIT2: The metric of success or failure for the attacker is killing an off-line POS which is easy, a on-line POS is a bit more fun.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1841
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 10:28:42 -
[103] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Toriessian wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:
It's a ecological problem, and it's self perpetuating. It's bad for everyone because it results in huge costs to us wardec outfits and it results in other highsec groups constantly being at war with one group or another. The solution is not "nerf wardecs" we've been nerfing wardecs and that's what lead us here.
I'm gonna chime in with the view of one of the "other highsec groups" that is constantly at war with one group or another. You are totally correct with your view of the current ecosystem. My alliance has been pretty much constantly dec'd since we left null and moved to HS in August. I'm sure theres one reason or another in terms of in game motivation. One piece of advice I keep seeing is that people should undock and fight back. Theres really no point to the Indy corp doing it in the majority of cases. My own alliances experience shows that. We've killed Rattlesnakes, pods, T3s, falcons. We're still perma-deccd. We can be seen putting a 12 domi blob with AHAC tackle, falcons, and logi support on the field, we still get dec'd. The monthly subcap losses my alliance takes don't come anywhere near putting us in danger. The losses we inflict wouldn't put any organized PvP group in any danger of collapsing either though. If anything undocking has encouraged more decs on us and if that is the consequence of fighting back,successfully or not, why would an Indy corp undock at all? Theres no way for the newer Indy Corp to come out ahead whether they undock or not. Thats single biggest thing that needs to change IMO. Dedicated PVPers can celebrate hitting their goals in KMs, fun fights, etc. but if your goal is to get back to doing Indy work from HS the mechanics are not in your favor. I don't think a simple nerf or buff to any one thing fixes this. War dec mechanics need a redesign from the ground up. If you kill things from these groups they tend to drop the wars because all the merc groups need a clean killboard. At least the groups that pursue you out of the jita amarr pipe do. Also.. if you can fight back like you say.. why not enjoy this game , that is completely geared towards PVP and DO FIGHT? You are not supposed to go back to doign ONLY indy stuff. You are supposed to work a bit liek in 0.0 where you need intel channels and when war dec pilots come closer your indy pilots are warned and your forces scramble to defend. NO one is entitled to playing all by itself on his own pocket of imagination in this game. In 0.0 people just dock up and get safe, though there are some that fleet up and go after the attackers, the alliances I was in normally went after the attackers. The issue is that the more his corp fights the more people who are starved of content war dec his corp, whose main focus is industry, so what happens his corp that fights back loses a large chunk of their industry players and starts losing their capability. Its like anything if you over do it then it will break, its like when the CFC dropped a large super fleet on IRC in Cobalt Edge on the station timer, when IRC had a carrier fleet there to save teh station, everyone realised that they had no chance to fight that and just melted away. If you keep punishing the indy corp that fights back with more decs then they will die, its as simple as that. Its like over fishing basically... EDIT: I see you give breaks on your post above, very wise, but others do not and seeing people fighting back dogpile on them EDIT2: The metric of success or failure for the attacker is killing an off-line POS which is easy, a on-line POS is a bit more fun.
well he could go check crime and punishment forum.. and hire some group to force the toher to stop. For example us, it is nto cheap, but worth. You can ask our former clients, very rare that the wardeccers keep another extra week after 1 week fighting with us.
We love fighting other war dec groups, and there is at least another war dec group that does the same.
So there are options, even if you feel you cannot keep fighting. Eve is not supposed to be weak. We spend billiosn per week to have our fun, indy grups should sometimes have to do the same.. for examply by hiring us . We will NOT escort you ops.. no.. we will go KILL the guys that are hunting you (helps if you share intel when you guys meet them)
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1736
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 11:52:41 -
[104] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:One of the issues before was that you war decc'd a single corp who had no chance, now they can ask friends to help and in some cases this produces content, perhaps it does not scale up very well against professional and very able war dec alliances/corps like you, but at the lower level it should produce small gang combat.
There are pros and cons to the ally mechanic, and generally speaking it benefits me and my alliance tremendously, however I think it's bad for the game because its total one-sidedness results in it being a really terrible idea for 99% of the people in highsec to ever declare a war.
Having an ally join a war is like having someone declare war on you. Except it costs nothing, becomes active in 4 hours and lasts for as long as you keep the war active if the ally wants it to. Also the defender can publicly advertise that they can do this to you. Not to mention that there's no mechanic that facilitates escalation or retaliation in response to this in any way whatsoever.
It totally removes the specificity of the war declaration to begin with, rather than declaring war on a specific group you think you can beat you also have to factor in both their friends, the possibility of them hiring mercs as well as any other randoms who feel like jumping in on the free war party. Groups like TEST and GSF learned how declaring war post inferno was a great way to find yourself at war with every trade hub camper in the game pretty quickly.
The massive, disproportionate level of risk and uncertainty an aggressor is exposed to by the ally system, and the fact it only works one way has served to completely end war declarations as a means for the average guy in highsec to engage in combat with the other average guy in highsec, if he declares war someone like me will show up, in 4 hours, for free, and **** on his day.
War declaration changes aren't even on the table right now, so it's kind of worthless to talk about them, but I feel like the fact that the ally system only works one way is super harmful to wars as a useful mechanic because there's nothing to discourage bringing in as many allies as you want because the attacker can't do a damned thing about it. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 13:20:26 -
[105] - Quote
You have to sit back a bit and look at how the player base in Eve has developed, there are a lot less purely PVE/Indy focussed people, furthermore Indy in hisec has seen a nerf in terms of their profits, I have heard a lot about people thinking that people should hire mercs which are war deccers to remove war deccers but it is a pipe dream, an indy group such as the person detailed has no capacity to employ merc groups for more than just a one off, the cost is too much as compared to their profits. Perhaps he could employ you to go after one group that is especially aggresive and irritating, but what does it gain, a reprieve for 1 week or 2 weeks, is it worth it, what can they do in that time to make up the ISK to hire you again. Industrial is a capital intensive operation, I guess they could always sell long term assets for s hort term respite, that is the issue you face in being mercs, the value of paying for your intervention is at worst one week of no war decs.
The only people who have that type of wealth are station traders (who don't need your services) , incursion runners who can be in NPC corps or 0.0 entities, who do not care.
Mercs for me only work in terms of very specific jobs, for what you suggest they are not worth hiring and while part of that is the issue around the mechanics, the main issues is the evolution of the player base.
As I said its like the issue of over fishing...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 13:31:05 -
[106] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Dracvlad wrote:One of the issues before was that you war decc'd a single corp who had no chance, now they can ask friends to help and in some cases this produces content, perhaps it does not scale up very well against professional and very able war dec alliances/corps like you, but at the lower level it should produce small gang combat. There are pros and cons to the ally mechanic, and generally speaking it benefits me and my alliance tremendously, however I think it's bad for the game because its total one-sidedness results in it being a really terrible idea for 99% of the people in highsec to ever declare a war. Having an ally join a war is like having someone declare war on you. Except it costs nothing, becomes active in 4 hours and lasts for as long as you keep the war active if the ally wants it to. Also the defender can publicly advertise that they can do this to you. Not to mention that there's no mechanic that facilitates escalation or retaliation in response to this in any way whatsoever. It totally removes the specificity of the war declaration to begin with, rather than declaring war on a specific group you think you can beat you also have to factor in both their friends, the possibility of them hiring mercs as well as any other randoms who feel like jumping in on the free war party. Groups like TEST and GSF learned how declaring war post inferno was a great way to find yourself at war with every trade hub camper in the game pretty quickly. The massive, disproportionate level of risk and uncertainty an aggressor is exposed to by the ally system, and the fact it only works one way has served to completely end war declarations as a means for the average guy in highsec to engage in combat with the other average guy in highsec, if he declares war someone like me will show up, in 4 hours, for free, and **** on his day. War declaration changes aren't even on the table right now, so it's kind of worthless to talk about them, but I feel like the fact that the ally system only works one way is super harmful to wars as a useful mechanic because there's nothing to discourage bringing in as many allies as you want because the attacker can't do a damned thing about it.
I hear what you say and your arguments are thought through and very good, however you have to look at the state of your prey and often this is where you fall down, your prey is limited in number in terms of hisec operations that are prepared to mix it with you, also they will not unless there is something specific to defend bother buying in mercs, there is no value, the only exception is those that have a sugar daddy with vast wealth.
In terms of the ally system, it was designed to assist small guys against big guys or medium guys, in the situation I described the corp that did the war dec has 22 characters in corp, my fiend has two accounts and at the moment I have two accounts, I am an ally, they had a specific target an offline POS that is now online. Done finished, I was there as back up they are only interested in offline stuff, so nothing to see here.
Your prey needs the alliance system to even have a chance to undock, and yest there are hardly any white knights, the only thing that causes an issue is people who are desperate for fights to keep their membership engaged... and this is not just an issue in hisec.
Ella's Snack bar
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1736
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 13:35:44 -
[107] - Quote
The most cost effective way to pay for mercs is to pay them a monthly retainer fee to come to your aid in any war you get into. Typically it's comparatively inexpensive and also the repeat business helps to build a relationship where both parties understand what to expect out of each other. As merc having a client who trusts you and is willing to work with you to blow up the baddies is much more fun and way less infuriating than having an un-cooperative client. As a client, it sucks to hire people while having no idea how effective they are or what they're actually going to do during the war.
tl;dr buy my product only 500 million per month. 1 billion for "high risk" clients. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
494
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 13:48:38 -
[108] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The most cost effective way to pay for mercs is to pay them a monthly retainer fee to come to your aid in any war you get into. Typically it's comparatively inexpensive and also the repeat business helps to build a relationship where both parties understand what to expect out of each other. As merc having a client who trusts you and is willing to work with you to blow up the baddies is much more fun and way less infuriating than having an un-cooperative client. As a client, it sucks to hire people while having no idea how effective they are or what they're actually going to do during the war.
tl;dr buy my product only 500 million per month. 1 billion for "high risk" clients.
Mercs aren't the answer though, at least not the "right" answer, people should do their best to fight their own battles and ideally the battles they fight should be against people of appropriate experience levels, however at this stage in the game that's just not something that's going to happen.
Very good post.
Lets now look at the merc approach, the attitude is not convoy support but hunter killer, and you have multiple hunter killer targets, yet your clients want convoy support, but your members don't want to do that, of course I understand that, but you are not meeting the needs of your clients and if you did it would be as boring as hell. How do you really make this work, to be honest beats me, which is why I never bothered trying to do what you are doing, for me it was not just possible.
And people who fight back get a queue pof people war decc'ing them, because there are too many people looking for good targets and not enough prey.
I don't get war decs, and that is because I have nothing that they can pin me down on, such as a POS and I can go 0.0 or low sec no issues.
Ella's Snack bar
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Danjun Zahid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 21:52:52 -
[109] - Quote
"In EVE Online, wars are fought for any reason the human mind can come up with and are a true melting pot of emergent game play. We've always left it to the players to define WHY they fight, but we've also always wanted to give you guys more tools to frame your war-mongering ambitions".
from the devs themselves, this game is about fighting, wars can allow all to fight regardless of whether you want to or not. it has been this way since the introduction of wars and the upgrades they got in 2012. it is a tried and true game mechanic and anyone who complains about it doesnt belong in the game.
nuff said |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
496
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 08:14:41 -
[110] - Quote
Danjun Zahid wrote:"In EVE Online, wars are fought for any reason the human mind can come up with and are a true melting pot of emergent game play. We've always left it to the players to define WHY they fight, but we've also always wanted to give you guys more tools to frame your war-mongering ambitions".
from the devs themselves, this game is about fighting, wars can allow all to fight regardless of whether you want to or not. it has been this way since the introduction of wars and the upgrades they got in 2012. it is a tried and true game mechanic and anyone who complains about it doesnt belong in the game.
nuff said
LOL, time for a definite statement...
The key word there is fight, F I G H T, got that, so someone war deccing and not undocking is not fighting, the art of playing Eve by not playing Eve, it seems that the pinnacle of Eve warfare is the art of stopping people from playing, something that I have been saying for some time, and amusingly a guy who makes that point in posts to the forum has his posts reported every time he says it.
Lets repeat the key part again:
this game is about fighting
So if the defender forms a fleet and is ready for the attacker to fight and they do not, is that fighting?
Personally I would rather leave it as it is, but human nature is causing an issue with this, so maybe CCP needs to set up a system where if the defender had set up a fleet and the attacker was online that they declare a contest and if the attacker does not attack then the war dec has a 2 hour countdown unless he comes out to fight. During this time they have to stay undocked and ready to fight.
There you go a FIGHT, do you want to make any more definite statements?
Ella's Snack bar
|
Heather Austrene
Fried Liver Attack
3
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 12:49:19 -
[111] - Quote
I think Dracvlad is on the right track, but I don't think that it would work quite like that. But it gave me an idea.
The wardeccers want the targets to come out where they can be killed.
The defenders just want the war to end so they can get on with things.
So give the defenders incentive to come out and fight by giving them a game mechanic that allows them to end the war by accomplishing some task, perhaps by destroying some structure or maybe even something similar to plexing in FW. If they accomplish this task, then the war is over and they can't be wardecced by that corp/alliance for some reasonably long period of time.
|
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
337
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:45:29 -
[112] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
IF we woudl need tto select jsut 3-4 targets,t hen War targets woudl be worthless, because no way we could have enough targets to have a chance of doing ANYTHIGN during a weekend.
IF the average player was not a coward chicken, then maybe we woudl not need so many wars.
Its not necessarily about being risk averse or cowardice or wanting to stay in isolated pockets and never be bothered.
Lets look at a recent HS battle. Lets say my alliance (IOC) sends out a skirmishing gang to see what "The Pursuit of Happiness" puts on the field. It was almost comical when you really look at it. Armor AHACs/Cruisers/BCs/Logi vs. Ceptors/Faction Frigs/AHACs/Faction BS/Neutral logi. Didn't look for but would bet money neutral links were floating around. I'm pretty sure both sides can escalate plenty more.
Now lets look at the three big themes in the thread as whole...
1) The fight I describe above is a perfect example of the scale of difficulty issue Vimsy pointed out. Changes to wardecs broke the ecosystem and there are no "small" participants. Entertainingly people are suggesting that new corps undock in T1 cruisers and frigs. These are setups that typically won't break a single logi much less multiple.
- To the small Indy Corp that means no more "at least we got an X" morale kill
2) Multiple people have confirmed, " Indy Corps that get wardecc'd should fight back or die. Oh and BTW don't expect to ever run the content you actually want to since its Indy HS work.".
- To the small Indy corp the motivation to fight back because you might get back to go back to what you are doing is now gone.
3) War Dec alliances dec LOTS of people to get targets because so many aren't willing to fight.
- To the small Indy corp it looks like you're griefing when you're just searching for a fight, somewhere, anywhere.
I don't know how you fix #3 without doing something to alleviate #1 or #2. A mechanic where an indy corp can "win" peace through war for a bit is probably more realistic than finding a way to scale back the ships/fleets being used. This would also create more of a market for mercs because "Hey theres a point to fighting back"
In the end its still a game and you can't complain about not having people to play with if you don't give them a carrot to actually come out and play. |
Danjun Zahid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 20:47:37 -
[113] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Danjun Zahid wrote:"In EVE Online, wars are fought for any reason the human mind can come up with and are a true melting pot of emergent game play. We've always left it to the players to define WHY they fight, but we've also always wanted to give you guys more tools to frame your war-mongering ambitions".
from the devs themselves, this game is about fighting, wars can allow all to fight regardless of whether you want to or not. it has been this way since the introduction of wars and the upgrades they got in 2012. it is a tried and true game mechanic and anyone who complains about it doesnt belong in the game.
nuff said LOL, time for a definite statement... The key word there is fight, F I G H T, got that, so someone war deccing and not undocking is not fighting, the art of playing Eve by not playing Eve, it seems that the pinnacle of Eve warfare is the art of stopping people from playing, something that I have been saying for some time, and amusingly a guy who makes that point in posts to the forum has his posts reported every time he says it. Lets repeat the key part again: this game is about fightingSo if the defender forms a fleet and is ready for the attacker to fight and they do not, is that fighting? Personally I would rather leave it as it is, but human nature is causing an issue with this, so maybe CCP needs to set up a system where if the defender had set up a fleet and the attacker was online that they declare a contest and if the attacker does not attack then the war dec has a 2 hour countdown unless he comes out to fight. During this time they have to stay undocked and ready to fight. There you go a FIGHT, do you want to make any more definite statements?
my statement did say "allows for fights" not that if you wardec you MUST fight for every second that your online. people who war dec and sit in startion as you say are 'avoiding that fight' but it still gives them the oppotunity to if they want which is one of the reasons for having such mechanics (on that similar note i should have changed fighting to PvP, and for some reason people cant seem to understand that sitting in station when you say have 4 people on vs a defending fleet of 14 is a valid tactic!! both attackers and defenders can do it) and the whole 'this game is about fighting' is not a definition it was my point of view based off the years of my playing the game. and on the note of your idea, i like it; allows for more fights but it would be pretty dicky if the defender fleets up when one member of the opposing side is online, especially around dt when only the epic kiwis and strayas are on.
And to the point of T's post above, valid points, people who do industry in low sec and null have to face similar condittions to those getting wardecd by mercs in high. they dont complain, they understand that doing it is risky and from time to time it will make them a target. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1738
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 22:36:59 -
[114] - Quote
There is also an element of the reduced tendency of defenders to defend themselves in the prevailing fleet doctrines of highsec pvp outfits. Armor had and always will remain dominant in highsec due to a combination of the close ranges involved and because utility mids allow the fitting of anti-escape modules like webs, scrams, ECCM and sensor boosters. However there used to be a tendency to ship down to the lowest end thing you could reasonably use because that encourages a fight by concealing your actual strength. Nowadays when a serious effort to kill you almost never happens it is more advantageous to just bring whatever is most able to catch anything you can find and kill whatever it is without needing RR and without it escaping.
This means lots of tank lots of tackle and high DPS out of a fairly fast hull. Subsequently you guys get to deal with armor T3s and AHACs as the standard rather than something we ship up to if things get too real. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1846
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 09:34:45 -
[115] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The most cost effective way to pay for mercs is to pay them a monthly retainer fee to come to your aid in any war you get into. Typically it's comparatively inexpensive and also the repeat business helps to build a relationship where both parties understand what to expect out of each other. As merc having a client who trusts you and is willing to work with you to blow up the baddies is much more fun and way less infuriating than having an un-cooperative client. As a client, it sucks to hire people while having no idea how effective they are or what they're actually going to do during the war.
tl;dr buy my product only 500 million per month. 1 billion for "high risk" clients.
Mercs aren't the answer though, at least not the "right" answer, people should do their best to fight their own battles and ideally the battles they fight should be against people of appropriate experience levels, however at this stage in the game that's just not something that's going to happen. Very good post. Lets now look at the merc approach, the attitude is not convoy support but hunter killer, and you have multiple hunter killer targets, yet your clients want convoy support, but your members don't want to do that, of course I understand that, but you are not meeting the needs of your clients and if you did it would be as boring as hell. How do you really make this work, to be honest beats me, which is why I never bothered trying to do what you are doing, for me it was just not possible. And people who fight back get a queue pof people war decc'ing them, because there are too many people looking for good targets and not enough prey. I don't get war decs, and that is because I have nothing that they can pin me down on, such as a POS and I can go 0.0 or low sec no issues, not so hisec indy corps.
Sure we can all do convoy support. But then the price will be 40 times higher, because we need to ignore our other 40 wars.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1846
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 09:43:24 -
[116] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
IF we woudl need tto select jsut 3-4 targets,t hen War targets woudl be worthless, because no way we could have enough targets to have a chance of doing ANYTHIGN during a weekend.
IF the average player was not a coward chicken, then maybe we woudl not need so many wars.
Its not necessarily about being risk averse or cowardice or wanting to stay in isolated pockets and never be bothered. Lets look at a recent HS battle. Lets say my alliance (IOC) sends out a skirmishing gang to see what "The Pursuit of Happiness" puts on the field. It was almost comical when you really look at it. Armor AHACs/Cruisers/BCs/Logi vs. Ceptors/Faction Frigs/AHACs/Faction BS/Neutral logi. Didn't look for but would bet money neutral links were floating around. I'm pretty sure both sides can escalate plenty more. Now lets look at the three big themes in the thread as whole... 1) The fight I describe above is a perfect example of the scale of difficulty issue Vimsy pointed out. Changes to wardecs broke the ecosystem and there are no "small" participants. Entertainingly people are suggesting that new corps undock in T1 cruisers and frigs. These are setups that typically won't break a single logi much less multiple. - To the small Indy Corp that means no more "at least we got an X" morale kill 2) Multiple people have confirmed, " Indy Corps that get wardecc'd should fight back or die. Oh and BTW don't expect to ever run the content you actually want to since its Indy HS work.". - To the small Indy corp the motivation to fight back because you might get back to go back to what you are doing is now gone. 3) War Dec alliances dec LOTS of people to get targets because so many aren't willing to fight. - To the small Indy corp it looks like you're griefing when you're just searching for a fight, somewhere, anywhere. I don't know how you fix #3 without doing something to alleviate #1 or #2. A mechanic where an indy corp can "win" peace through war for a bit is probably more realistic than finding a way to scale back the ships/fleets being used. This would also create more of a market for mercs because "Hey theres a point to fighting back" In the end its still a game and you can't complain about not having people to play with if you don't give them a carrot to actually come out and play.
You want to know the solution? There shoudl be no Exclusively Indy corps. The corp system was tought and made so peopel gather and join corps into alliances and help each other. If you want to have an indy corp, you are putting a limitation on yourself, and you should not blame others.
When the enemy is above your paygrade, Hire another group. Then you talk to them and bring your t1 cruisers when there is a fight. So your members learn. SOon you might not need these mercs to any but the most critical wardecs (no one is expecting small groups using t1 cruiser to fight PoH or FA for example, but there are several lower classes of mercs that you can fight back against without help)
NO space for small players? Up to June PoH was runnign with only 5 active members, and we still wrecked havoc. It is nto about the size. It is about peopel not wantign to learn the basics.
EASILY 90% of our WT do not even have Local open while flying around. Peopel that do not ask for a corp member to go ahead in a frigate when they are moving an orca.. things like that.
A carrot you say? Sure we coudl ahve better carrots. I still think high sec POCOs and PI should make more money and minimum taxes shoudl be higher. Also The war tax should be GIVEN to the war target is they manage to win the war report balance.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
|
Anatoly Arji
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 18:08:47 -
[117] - Quote
As a new player (7 weeks old.) and a very much "pro industrialist" person who likes to mine and build stuff rather than PvP 24 / 7... one thing is clearly obvious to me:
Do not form Industrialist only corporations. Period. Just don't do it. It's like wearing a bow tie in middle school... you'll be targeted for easy beatings all day long. And if you DO feel the need to do that, sure as hell don't put the word "Miner" in the name. Heh. For bonus points, and if you REALLY want to feel the burn, name your corp something like "Newbie Miners and Plex Haulers Incorporated." CONCORD will run out of forms for people to war dec you with.
The sad part is, this is an alt character. I couldn't post this as my main because he's in a corp with "Miner" in the name.
Eve is a PvP oriented game, corps must be strong to survive in that theater. As such, corps need to be able to defend themselves first and be industrialists second. Wardeccing in high sec is a part of the game, like "bumping." Both could easily be removed, but that would detract from the game's core value set.
If your corp is too weak to survive in this environment (probably because it's a coalition of new players that are friends IRL or it has lax recruiting policies...) then disband it and create a chat channel. |
Tsukino Stareine
Serene Vendetta
Brawls Deep
797
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 19:38:14 -
[118] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
the relevance is overwhelming |
Justin Zaine
114
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 04:41:55 -
[119] - Quote
Quote:but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults
Wouldn't have guessed you were French. |
Varathius
Blood Fountain Massacre
LOADED-DICE
141
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 11:14:25 -
[120] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.
If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.
This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
So let me understand you correctly.
Reasons for war in eve, dumb.
But the dumbest real life war reasons, the dumbest of them all being definitely religion, which we have been waging war for since this none sense was created, yes, that is ok....
troll thread ? If yes, I'll give you 8/10 troll rating. |
Velicitia
XS Tech
2700
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 12:47:47 -
[121] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
A carrot you say? Sure we coudl ahve better carrots. I still think high sec POCOs and PI should make more money and minimum taxes shoudl be higher. Also The war tax should be GIVEN to the war target is they manage to win the war report balance.
Could work ... but I think that you'll need to do more than just "the balance" -- I mean, it's really easy to get (for example) 10 kills on your WT, and then in the last day, they get a drop on you while you're in something expensive.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
|
Velicitia
XS Tech
2700
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 14:17:39 -
[122] - Quote
Anatoly Arji wrote:(stuff)
This guy gets EVE.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
|
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
A T O N E M E N T
587
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 15:56:58 -
[123] - Quote
You should kill him back. Bring E-War. Lots and Lots of E-War. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
490
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 03:19:59 -
[124] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Just leave your corp, join an NPC corp and make a chat channel for your corp mates for the duration of the war. Rejoin when war is over.
Never pay a ransom - it will just flag you as someone who will pay and you'll be decced again in short order.
Not true at all. The last corp my group ransomed ended up working with us on future endeavors.
Hades Effect
|
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 16:01:08 -
[125] - Quote
Anatoly Arji wrote:[...] Eve is a PvP oriented game, corps must be strong to survive in that theater. As such, corps need to be able to defend themselves first and be industrialists second. Wardeccing in high sec is a part of the game, like "bumping." Both could easily be removed, but that would detract from the game's core value set. [...]
Correct, and furthermore "strong" means corp morale more than skill points or powerful ships. Too many hi sec corp members have unrealistic expectations; rank and file members expect to be immune from attack in hi sec, and corp leaders expect never to see losses on their kill board. When these expectations are not met, the members quit or are kicked out and the corp falls apart.
If you join a corp, even a hi sec industrial corp, you've climbed up a notch on the risk/reward ladder and should expect to face more challenge from other players. You'll have to devote more effort to fighting/avoiding/outsmarting your war opponents to succeed even in purely industrial and PvE activities, but you also have access to more advanced levels of the game than you could have in an NPC corp.
If you lead a hi sec, industry-oriented corp, realize that war is inevitable in hi sec, and stop blaming your members for whatever you think they might have done to incite or prolong wars. Focus on how your corp can prosper in spite of war decs, rather than endless contortions of game play in the hope that the dec'ers won't bother you as much. Stop thinking that a war dec is an anomaly that means your corp has done something wrong. Wars are business as usual in hi sec, and periods of peace are the anomaly.
|
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries
Limitless Redux
77
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 17:45:52 -
[126] - Quote
@ OP
I'm tired of pointless money-making, so make ships seeded instead of player-made, then I'll be tired of pointless PVP-ing, so remove it, then I'll be tired of this pointless universe that we can't do anything in, so just shut down the servers, etc.
You can't be a nihilist about one thing and randomly think other stuff has meaning. Its all pointless FUN. |
Helmut Varner
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 23:43:05 -
[127] - Quote
Ok, having read through this thread I can only say this:
EVE is broken...and it has been broken by the very people who control it.
Wars have a purpose. However, with all of the recent changes, CCP has made the entire wardec subject a mockery of gaming. Why do I say this? Because no more is it a matter of rationality...nor is it a matter of zone control. It's a matter of money. You can go online right now and find corps who have 20+ active wars and more pending. Why is this? Simply put, this is because CCP allows it in order to fill their coffers. We all know that these people are buying PLEX with real-world cash and selling them for ISK. This is a profit-line for CCP and shows what a lot of honest-to-goodness players have known for years - CCP has more concern for their bottom-line than they do about the gamers. People who don't want to play by the restrictions of where they can pew-pew...pay money so they can play wherever they want.
Now, I know the flamers are going to slam me for this and tell me things like "Go play here" or "Stop being a whiny-butt". However, the bottom line is that the wardec system - originally - was designed with purpose and not with the idea to make more money for the company. To those flamers, I say YOU are the ones who aren't real gamers...but posers.
CCP had - and still has - a great thing going. EVE is so far-reaching in it's scope that it's easy to become lost in the game. The broad expanse of what it covers - economy to combat to organization - allows for the most in-depth game in existence. This is exciting. EVE is so 'deep' that I personally know of people who have tried to play and decided that they can't because the scope is so large they can't wrap their head around it. This doesn't mean they are stupid...it's that it encompasses so much of real life attributes that it boggles the mind.
CCP, you need to be congratulated for creating and maintaining one of the best online experiences made. Yes, EVE is more of an experience than a game. However, by giving in to the almighty currency, you actually detract from the game itself. This is sad because I have seen many online games come and go...a lot of them gone because of greed. Please, don't let EVE disappear because of a line in the accounting books. The wardec system needs to be fixed. Let reality step in for a moment and show that corporations can't financially manage so many wardecs at once and incorporate that reality into the game which you have worked so hard to make as real as possible. Fix the system before it destroys the game. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
A T O N E M E N T
588
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 01:17:58 -
[128] - Quote
Helmut Varner wrote:Ok, having read through this thread I can only say this:
EVE is broken...and it has been broken by the very people who control it.
Wars have a purpose. However, with all of the recent changes, CCP has made the entire wardec subject a mockery of gaming. Why do I say this? Because no more is it a matter of rationality...nor is it a matter of zone control. ... .
Just because you do not understand the motivation of someone declaring war does not make them irrational. Sometimes people blow up miners because other miners stop them from mining. Sometimes they blow up POS's because they want a pos moon. Sometimes they want prestige and reputation while others it is a motivation of shutting down your production.
I bet that most people that declare war on you have done a bit of research before doing so. The moment you sign up to a corporation you accept the fact that your corporation is able to own unified property. You may forfeit this and join an NPC corporation - you will no longer gain any benefits that corporations give you. But you will be safe.
|
HarlyQ
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 04:33:39 -
[129] - Quote
Here is a wonderful idea. Go to nullsec no wardecs to worry about unless your bad and take JFs through nullsec highsec connections. But if your looking to sell compressed ore hit me up. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 14:21:59 -
[130] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:
Just because you do not understand the motivation of someone declaring war does not make them irrational. Sometimes people blow up miners because other miners stop them from mining. Sometimes they blow up POS's because they want a pos moon. Sometimes they want prestige and reputation while others it is a motivation of shutting down your production.
Of course war decs are rational; they don't just happen by accident. Most times it's so that the aggressor can feel strong by preying on the weak. This has been a major theme of EVE from the beginning, long before PLEX.
Quote:
I bet that most people that declare war on you have done a bit of research before doing so. The moment you sign up to a corporation you accept the fact that your corporation is able to own unified property. You may forfeit this and join an NPC corporation - you will no longer gain any benefits that corporations give you. But you will be safe.
Yes, and the target corp would do well to just accept war as an inevitable reality, rather than quaking in fear docked up in stations. Your fear and "tears" are what war aggressors really want the most, and you can deny it to them regardless how poor you are in ISK, skill points, etc. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
48
|
Posted - 2015.01.12 20:19:18 -
[131] - Quote
My war targets pay me to go away, and I do. Maybe you should just put your wallet where your mouth is.
-Badman
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
1967
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 05:29:01 -
[132] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:My war targets pay me to go away, and I do. Maybe you should just put your wallet where your mouth is.
The best part is when someone shows up to "negotiate" and you offer payment as your terms and they refuse outright to pay any quantity of money on principle.
It's like they were trying to hit the diplomacy option in a bioware game and weren't actually expecting to have to compromise in some way in order to reach a solution.
When someone is at war with you and you're trying to negotiate with the aggressor remember: War is the desired condition for them. They want to be at war with you, if you want to get out of the war you need to offer them an alternative that is better. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
48
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 14:06:13 -
[133] - Quote
I recently scouted down a corp with several assets in a system that looked vulnerable. We declared war and I asked the Corps CEO for 500 Million to go away. He refused (they do, about 80% of the time) and we extended the war for several weeks. He then put a total of 4 billion in bounty on my head and dissolved his Corp anyway.
Not only did he end up spending significantly more than my original request, in the end he lost his Corp anyway. If half of the high sec bears on this forum were more willing to negotiate they would be able to continue with business as usual.
-Badman
|
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
179
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 16:06:13 -
[134] - Quote
I would say that you just have to deal with it. If someone wants to declare war for no reason, then why should they not be able to ? Why should you need a reason to declare war ? Is there a reason for even playing Eve Online ? If there is then it's the same reason why someone would want to declare war for apparently no reason.
And personally I don't mean any disrespect but I don't care about your servitude in real life combat, as admirable as that is, violence begets violence and just because you served under a flag doesn't mean that your violence was righteous.
This has probably been well articulated by other posters already but I didn't read through the thread I just wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion.
Is there any way to unswallow my pride? Can I fuck myself down?
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
Spaceship Bebop
2753
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 16:45:08 -
[135] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:chatgris wrote:Just leave your corp, join an NPC corp and make a chat channel for your corp mates for the duration of the war. Rejoin when war is over.
Never pay a ransom - it will just flag you as someone who will pay and you'll be decced again in short order. Not true at all. The last corp my group ransomed ended up working with us on future endeavors.
Exception does not make the rule. True 90+ percent of the time. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
48
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 17:09:26 -
[136] - Quote
if you are not capable of defending yourself, and are not willing to pay a ransom, then consider hiring an effective merc corp. If I know for a fact that a Corp is going to hire another Merc corp, I'll definitely reconsider declaring war as the risk involved increases significantly.
-Badman
|
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 02:32:49 -
[137] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:if you are not capable of defending yourself, and are not willing to pay a ransom, then consider hiring an effective merc corp. If I know for a fact that a Corp is going to hire another Merc corp, I'll definitely reconsider declaring war as the risk involved increases significantly.
The corps most likely to get dec'ed (Newbie Fun Time Miners and the like) are also the least able to afford mercenaries. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
51
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 14:48:44 -
[138] - Quote
I think you'd be suprised how cheap some Mercenaries work. If you are just looking to make targets nervous many mercs will do it just for the 50 Mil war dec fee.
If 10 guys mining in high sec and running missions can't come up with 500 Million between them, for a ransom/hiring a more dangerous outfit, then they should reevaluate what they are doing.
-Badman
|
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 16:08:09 -
[139] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:[...]
If 10 guys mining in high sec and running missions can't come up with 500 Million between them, for a ransom/hiring a more dangerous outfit, then they should reevaluate what they are doing.
As a one time expense, 500 million is manageable. Wardecs are more like a monthly or even weekly occurrence though.
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
386
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 16:10:30 -
[140] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:I think you'd be suprised how cheap some Mercenaries work. If you are just looking to make targets nervous many mercs will do it just for the 50 Mil war dec fee.
If 10 guys mining in high sec and running missions can't come up with 500 Million between them, for a ransom/hiring a more dangerous outfit, then they should reevaluate what they are doing.
Yeah, just drop to a NPC corp and create a channel so you can all still chat and work together. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 16:18:40 -
[141] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Yeah, just drop to a NPC corp and create a channel so you can all still chat and work together.
That works. So does playing during the aggressor's off hours (just look at the time zone on most of their kill mails), moving to low or null sec, clone jumping back and forth across the galaxy, joining an alliance, etc. There are plenty of tools available to war defenders.
|
Demetri Dentrov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 05:39:05 -
[142] - Quote
Yeah, I feel the Ops pain, but I don't really see where anything needs to be done about it. We, as Industrial players, already have the tools we need.
However, I do find the opinion of the full time PvP crowd as amusing, that we should "fight" or "hire mercenaries." Why? Do you have to go through heroic measures when you are under war dec? No? You just fly the same gun loaded warships you were flying before. Perhaps one that's a bit different... How do you think that ship came to be in your possession? Our tools of the trade are billion isk unarmed targets in space that, by design, have no weapons and the maneuverability of a beached whale. We are hopelessly, hilariously outgunned in anything close to a fair fight in our usual ships.
So when you war dec us, it's the equivalent of someone coming to you and saying... "We are at war! I get to fly whatever, and you have to fly a frigate." Don't like it? Tough, because all your usual ships? the ones you earn isk in doing missions and whatnot? Well they can't be used during the war." That would suck, wouldn't it?
So we Industrials have to be smarter. We can't form "Carebear Industrial Corps" like we would if this was World of Warcraft or something... we have to build organizations that cannot be war decced in a conventional manner. Clever use of one man corps, having a lot of our people remain in NPC corps, etc. It's a pain, and it means you can never build a large organization, but how big does an Industrial corp need to be? Here's an example: Red Frog. Good luck war deccing them. The transport vessels themselves are independents, not in "Red Frog" itself.
If you DON'T do that, and shoot bows and arrows against the lightning with the insistence that the world be made fair for you... you will quickly learn how heartless the galaxy of Eve can be. One of the things I hear a lot is how "bad" or "evil" people that prey on our unarmed ships are. No! If bears rip up your camp and eat your food, whose fault is it, the bears for wanting food, or yours for not anticipating it?" Crying to the ranger won't help you at all.
|
Whittorical Quandary
The Asteroid is Depleted
14
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 07:32:14 -
[143] - Quote
You can say stupid this person or that, but in the end you still wind up with just as many stupid people as before...
I don't really see HS corps doing any better over time, only worse. (200+ active wardecs and barely any corps even fight much less get many kills)
IMO there are a multitude of reasons holding people back, not sure what all they are but some possiblities:
-A multiude of corps that don't have the advanced combat skills and numbers to fight. It takes a while to gain enough skills to get into a ship that can do much any damage to highly skilled opponents.
(Going up against an enemy in nearly all Faction/Pirate/T2/T3 ships, command ships, makes combat for ppl with few skills seem pointless to engage)
-Difficuty with players transitioning from HS industry to PVP, when all skills are set for PVE/Indy it leave those players useless in most fights.
-Too many small corps that cannot field enough players at once to have the numbers needed to match a typical gatecamp.
Some of these arguments may be valid but only are speculation to me at this point.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams
|
Agent Unknown
Night Theifs
DamnedNation
9
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 15:54:19 -
[144] - Quote
Whittorical Quandary wrote:You can say stupid this person or that, but in the end you still wind up with just as many stupid people as before...
I don't really see HS corps doing any better over time, only worse. (200+ active wardecs and barely any corps even fight much less get many kills)
IMO there are a multitude of reasons holding people back, not sure what all they are but some possiblities:
-A multiude of corps that don't have the advanced combat skills and numbers to fight. It takes a while to gain enough skills to get into a ship that can do much any damage to highly skilled opponents.
(Going up against an enemy in nearly all Faction/Pirate/T2/T3 ships, command ships, makes combat for ppl with few skills seem pointless to engage)
-Difficuty with players transitioning from HS industry to PVP, when all skills are set for PVE/Indy it leave those players useless in most fights.
-Too many small corps that cannot field enough players at once to have the numbers needed to match a typical gatecamp.
Some of these arguments may be valid but only are speculation to me at this point.
It basically comes down to this: wardecs will happen and it's part of the game. In return for not giving up ISK in NPC corp taxes, you're a valid target for wars. Don't want wars? Drop to an NPC corporation. Otherwise, the corp needs to form up together and get back at them.
Believe it or not, a majority of wardecs outside of mercenary corps are by single players or small groups, so in a way it's good practice. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
57
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:52:51 -
[145] - Quote
As the leader of a high sec War Deccing Corporation I feel like I have a valid opinion on the subject. Many of the previous posts make it sound like the war deccing corps are simply preying on every newbro corp they can find, I can assure you that this is not the case. There are no good fights to be had war deccing a group of 10 month old toons in their retreivers. It does happen, but I personally will never extend a war against a group of newbros if there was no sport in it.
I think you'll find that the majority of corps catching repeated war decs in high sec are getting them for a reason. If I see a corp with 10 Mackinaws, and Orca, and a Freighter in an ice belt every day, they are a target. If I see someone clearly multiboxing faction battleships in a level 4 mission hub, they are a target. Autopiloting freighters through all the pipes every day? You're a target too.
I think that some people disregard how much money can be, and is made in high sec on a daily basis. A typicallice mining operation with 3-4 pilots can make hundreds of millions while being practically AFK. You don't see too many faction fit battleships and auto piloting freighters in lowsec, because the low/null sec residents can't afford to be that stupid. High sec residents do it every single day.
High sec war deccers make money through ransoms and loot. Killing 20 noobs in Rifters doesn't make anyone any money, but killing 1 faction fit battleship can play for a PLEX. If high seccers keep flying their multi-billion isk loot pinatas around high sec, then high sec wars will continue. If there is money to be made, then Eve players will try to exploit it, and there is money in high sec.
-Badman
|
Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
2
|
Posted - 2015.01.29 19:36:14 -
[146] - Quote
Thorvade wrote:In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.
OP answered his own question here!
Your "playstyle" is PVE, but what does that mean? Are you roleplaying a miner in a mining simulator and all you do is mine, dock, undock, mine, dock, undock, etc? Or are you roleplaying a miner in a sci-fi universe full of pirates, warriors, traders, and all other sorts of characters? You can still be a miner. (Or mission runner, or whatever.) No one is saying you shouldn't be a miner.
But let's imagine, as a thought experiment, somebody makes a sci-fi movie about asteroid miners. If there was never any danger or drama, and the miners never needed any skill or luck, it'd be a lame movie. If you wanted people to buy tickets, you'd probably open with a scene of the miners under attack by pirates and warping away at just the last moment. Then after some character development you'd probably introduce a large-scale problem: maybe an impending war means the whole mining fleet needs to move to another part of the galaxy, and the gates are camped, so perhaps they have to sneak out via random wormhole. The main character may be the rookie miner who has to learn a new job, as fleet scout. There'd be excitement and danger and close escapes and a happy ending. But it would still be a movie about miners in space.
This is what EVE offers to people who choose the PVE playstyle. Embrace it!
|
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
30
|
Posted - 2015.01.29 19:43:48 -
[147] - Quote
Lychton Kondur wrote:Thorvade wrote:
When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.
Honestly, the best way to solidify your corp is to look at the engagement platform your enemy is using against you (via your lossmails) and developing a counter doctrine to neutralize the threat. It's good content for your members and it may get the multibox dude/dudette to back down. Actual combat (ty for your service) doesn't translate to game mechanics. You still need to find, fix, and destroy your space enemy.
I just wanted to offer a quick little tidbit here.
We were a 30-40 man corporation that was just getting its legs off, full of noobs.
Got wardecced by a 2 man corporation flying around in cynabals etc.
I made a call to a friend of mine who brought himself and another competant pilot.
Showed up in the next pvp fleet in a rapier and we properly fielded logistics.
Wardec got dropped the very next day and he convo'd my friend and said "I didnt know these bears knew how to put up a fight".
Ended up being a good friend of mine for a while.
Dont be a bear, Put up a fight. Earn respect, dont expect it. |
Leo Lennelluc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 08:49:57 -
[148] - Quote
The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying, their is already players wanting to leave we dont have pvp skills, its easy enough to say get a thrasher fit out cheap and fight back but a group of unskilled industrial pilots in thrashers with very little pvp experience wouldnt stand a chance against the 4 T3's we had camping the station last night, basically the corp has gone into hibernbation we cant undock without being attacked we cant fight back to any level of effectivness, we have no friends we can ask for help so our only option is to either leave corp or not play for a week....
They wont come to an agreement they just want to destoy our corp that is their only aim (as shown by previous corps they have attacked/destoyed.... they see us a small easy target ( which to them we are) how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?
Now everyone in the corp pays for their characters and thats now 1 week where we are paying for something we cannot use, we didnt ask for the war and we have to suffer because of it?
I understand eve is a PvP game but its also a sandbox, many situations we are prepared for like gankers and going into low sec we know how to do our best here but we have absolutly no chance of doing anything with 4-5 players outside the station hunting us..... also they have out of corp logi with them... what do we do against that even if we did decide to fight (lose) they just rep them up we cant hit them without concord interveening.
im sure alot of people disagree but it is a bad mechanic and unfair on small industrial corps and new players,
* sorry about the spelling. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 14:57:22 -
[149] - Quote
Leo Lennelluc wrote:The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying [...] how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?
Be annoying back at them. Don't fight them in combat ships, where they have the advantage, especially since fighting in space is the whole point of the war for them. Counter them by making yourself difficult to hunt down and kill.
For example: create alt characters located far way from the war, join those characters to your corp and use them to open corp offices in many distant locations. Then have members scatter their clone locations among these different places. Now everyone get in shuttles, undock and fly away in different directions at once. The enemy might kill some, but can't target and destroy you all at once, especially in tiny shuttles that take longer to target and warp away quickly. Fly to your scattered offices (or get teleported there if podkilled) and start your PvE/mining there, and now the enemy has to fly 27 jumps for just one kill, then 32 jumps for another, etc.
|
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Hoplite Brigade
60
|
Posted - 2015.01.30 17:30:06 -
[150] - Quote
Leo Lennelluc wrote:The same thing here has happened to my Main's corp, got war dec'd by a small but experienced corp for no other reason than to be annoying, their is already players wanting to leave we dont have pvp skills, its easy enough to say get a thrasher fit out cheap and fight back but a group of unskilled industrial pilots in thrashers with very little pvp experience wouldnt stand a chance against the 4 T3's we had camping the station last night, basically the corp has gone into hibernbation we cant undock without being attacked we cant fight back to any level of effectivness, we have no friends we can ask for help so our only option is to either leave corp or not play for a week....
They wont come to an agreement they just want to destoy our corp that is their only aim (as shown by previous corps they have attacked/destoyed.... they see us a small easy target ( which to them we are) how do we fight back against skilled T2/T3 pilots when we can barely fly thrashers effectively?
Now everyone in the corp pays for their characters and thats now 1 week where we are paying for something we cannot use, we didnt ask for the war and we have to suffer because of it?
I understand eve is a PvP game but its also a sandbox, many situations we are prepared for like gankers and going into low sec we know how to do our best here but we have absolutly no chance of doing anything with 4-5 players outside the station hunting us..... also they have out of corp logi with them... what do we do against that even if we did decide to fight (lose) they just rep them up we cant hit them without concord interveening.
im sure alot of people disagree but it is a bad mechanic and unfair on small industrial corps and new players,
* sorry about the spelling.
If you live near a faction warfare warzone then contact an established FW corp. FW corps burn through ships at a rapid pace and may be interested in having neutral high sec Indy corps willing to build them ships and T2 mods in bulk at a discounted rate. If you get war devices and harassed let your client know and they will have a vested interest in helping out.
I guarantee that a dozen faction warfare veterans in T1 Frigate hulls will do more damage then 20 industrialists in Thrashers! I imagine it is not fun for a high sec war deccer to have 3rd parties show up in cheap ships that can kill their cynobals and are not afraid of dieing and have almost limitless reships waiting!
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Marlin Spikes
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
196
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Posted - 2015.02.01 10:39:34 -
[151] - Quote
Is it just me or did I just venture into a counseling session for victims?
Here's a solution for the OP and all the others who complained that wars are unfair - STOP BEING A VICTIM! Do something! Hire a merc, fight back, undock in noob ships for hours, freaking something.
There is a counter to every ship that is flown. Try them out. Damps, neuts, ecm, and logi. Exploit your enemy's every weakness!
Here's my best constructive advice: if your noob corp is horribad at fighting back, recruit one experienced pvp player to help FC you during wars. An FC can make the difference between feeling sorry for yourself or killing your enemy. Heck, he/she doesn't even have to join your corp.
You are a capsuleer. A god among men. Death has no hold on you here. Act like it! |
Dyllan Ma'tar
Hoplite Brigade
3
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Posted - 2015.02.07 17:38:28 -
[152] - Quote
Here's a thought. Move your corp to lowsec, join the faction wars, and pvp until you get good. Move back to highsec after leaving faction war, and have the knowledge and skills to deal with these carebear "pirates".
> You can win with certainty with the spirit of "one cut". ~ Miyamoto Musashi
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1148
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Posted - 2015.02.08 04:12:00 -
[153] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Why hello there OP.
Welcome to hell, OP.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1148
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Posted - 2015.02.08 04:14:41 -
[154] - Quote
Also, OP, my 2 bits:
Just because you choose to be a victim doesn't mean the rest of us are obliged not to mess with you.
Deal with it.
AKA HTFU.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
66
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Posted - 2015.02.08 05:08:00 -
[155] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:Why hello there OP. Welcome to hell, OP.
Man, took you over half a year to get your two bits in, doesnt look like OP went through hell either judging by the war report.
Probably just paid em off.
Tyyler DURden says "use soap"
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1148
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Posted - 2015.02.08 09:04:49 -
[156] - Quote
Actually, he probably just docked up for the duration.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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