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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.01 16:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 01/10/2003 16:12:41 Projectiles have poor tracking, good range, very good damage, and low requirements. Lasers have good tracking, good range, very good damage, and high requirements. Hybrids have poor tracking, decent range, poor damage, and high requirements. What gives? Hybrids use cap, powergrid, and cpu but do not get the corresponding damage boost that lasers get or the corresponding range of projectiles. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Troezar	Posted - 2003.10.01 16:36:00 - [2] Couldn't agree more, and the ammo takes up far too much space. An increase in damage would be nice as 425's aren't as good as I expected. BTW if a dev reads this why do large hybrids sound so crap?!!! A corp mate scared the crap out of me when he opened up with tach's, can't be that hard to change the sound...
Winterblink	Posted - 2003.10.01 17:38:00 - [3] Boost the damage, lower the requirements. That ought to bring them in line with the others as far as advantages/disadvantages go. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Lartfor	Posted - 2003.10.01 17:46:00 - [4] Here is what i say should be done. Dmg mod 2.75 tracking speed.003 There, i think after that they would be decent.
Valeria	Posted - 2003.10.01 18:08:00 - [5] The philosophy was always that Hybrids should be the most devastating weapons (energy and projectile combined) with the highest requirements. I don't know this was changed in retail, I liked it as it was. They kind of feel pointless now. Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage.
Winterblink	Posted - 2003.10.01 18:16:00 - [6] Quote: The philosophy was always that Hybrids should be the most devastating weapons (energy and projectile combined) with the highest requirements. I don't know this was changed in retail, I liked it as it was. They kind of feel pointless now. Right now I think the only real use I get out of them is as close range weapons. Cheap to buy, cheep to feed, do respectable damage with good rate of fire. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.10.01 18:20:00 - [7] tachyon on apoc, 425 on mega, 1400 on tempest all do about same dot if you have decent skills like battleship 4 etc. and laser use way more cap. I'm at work atm, but I'm pretty sure 425 with antimatter has better range than tachyon with multi.
SS Vegito	Posted - 2003.10.01 19:46:00 - [8] Edited by: SS Vegito on 01/10/2003 20:04:40 And what gun is it we put on a caldari ship that does as much damage as those 3 you listed cause it sure isnt a 425.
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.10.01 20:32:00 - [9] I've said many many times, I'll say it again I guess: If caldari bs can even do close turret dmg as other bs, then this game is completely unplayable. caldari bs is already the BEST, if anything would buff caldari bs, then first seriously BUFF UP other 3 race bs first.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.10.01 20:46:00 - [10] Quote: I've said many many times, I'll say it again I guess: If caldari bs can even do close turret dmg as other bs, then this game is completely unplayable. caldari bs is already the BEST, if anything would buff caldari bs, then first seriously BUFF UP other 3 race bs first. Gallante use hybrids too.. most Gallante ships are using tachyons and mega pulse beams right now, that should tell you something. Caldari ships will never do as much turret damage as another races battleship. No Caldari ship has over 4 turrets and they have by far the least low slots, so there's your difference right there, why complain? Hybrids suck again, lasers and projectiles got beefed up and hybrids actually got WORSE with the patch so why use hybrids? There's absolutely no reason to use hybrids on a Caldari ship and even Gallante ships (ships with DMG and TRACKING bonus) are using lasers? Can I get a W T F? ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
ga'ia	Posted - 2003.10.01 20:47:00 - [11] only problem i see is that the increase fit req for ion blasters was totally...stupid aswell as the cap usage increase for them compare with thier damage output (2.8xx d-mod :/), havent used or seen someone use them since patch. The blasters got kinda good tracking, but yea range is poor, but do most damage in the game really... Rails...well...think the 425 need _some_ more.. __________________________________________________________
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.10.01 20:56:00 - [12] Edited by: Luc Boye on 01/10/2003 20:57:07 Actually gallente battleships with hybrids have become so lame, so I'm training away from my race atm. It is easy to sit in apoc and talk how good hybrids are, try using them -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.10.01 21:02:00 - [13] Quote: Edited by: Luc Boye on 01/10/2003 20:57:07 Actually gallente battleships with hybrids have become so lame, so I'm training away from my race atm. It is easy to sit in apoc and talk how good hybrids are, try using them same as using other weapon and talk about how good laser is. from long time ago, I have experience with BOTH amarr and gallente battleships. I can use ALL weapon in game. All types of weapon I have similar skills.
Ballistic Angel	Posted - 2003.10.01 21:04:00 - [14] I agree L hybrids suck. good rof, fair tracking, bad range and damage. a proto M hybrid will do more damage and have better range.
Lurk	Posted - 2003.10.01 22:44:00 - [15] Edited by: Lurk on 01/10/2003 22:45:51 I'm using 425mm Rails and i can tell you they SUCK ... Not that they do no damage, i have a RoF of about 5 secs and do wreckings scratching the 600s. But i have to use 4 cap power relais and controlled bursts 4 to be able to fire 5 of em. Not to mention that using ammo sucks ... The ammo problem isn't that worse with projectiles as hybrids shoot more than twice as fast. My Megathron can load a full of 2500 Shots with full cargo. Not to mention every shot costs me like 50isk. They also use far more CPU than projectiles, dunno about lasers though. Lower Ammo Volume and give the Hybrids a bit damage boost. (like +10%).
SS Vegito	Posted - 2003.10.01 22:49:00 - [16] Yeah large ammos volume is a little off. A standard missile uses less and a heavy only uses twice as much.
Lurk	Posted - 2003.10.01 23:01:00 - [17] Just comparing 1400mm and 425mm. The little damage that the 425mm does more, can easily be compansated by 1-2 damage mods in low slots (the hybrid user has to sacrifice them to cap power relais). The projectile user still ahs the advantage in cap usage and cpu usage AND he used less ammo over time.
TIvian	Posted - 2003.10.02 00:49:00 - [18] OH PLEASE SHOW SOME LOVE TO THE HYBRIDS!!! other wise all my training to them is for nothing!!! ah well!!!! continues training Lasers and Projectiles and Missles (\_/) (O.o) (> <) Teh Uber Asheron's Call Bunny Booty WTFPWNZ you!!
SOHAIL	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:08:00 - [19] Aggree CCP should give Hybrid more advantage over any other weapon type. Most of people are using Lasers instead of Hybrids, cuz of their poor damage and tracking. -Amy- "We'll show them what FIREPOWER is all about"
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:52:00 - [20] Here's why large hybrids suck. First let's look at ion blasters and their variants.. here's why they blow. Their tracking still isn't all that great for a gun that has a 1km optimal pretty much with antimatter ammo (why use anything else but AM with a 2400m optimal?). Their damage is very nice and their ROF is excellent, but honestly, their range is just stupid. What exactly is low range? I would say 5-8km is LOW range for a battleship, 1km isn't any range at all, just isn't. Why use a hybrid blaster with no range when you can do just as much damage with a laser at 60 times the range??? Now for Railguns, ugh, these are worse than the blasters if you ask me. I don't quite understand WHY but they do HORRIBLE damage. They need beefed up considerably.. their tracking is a joke (worse than tachyon wtf?) their damage is less than a medium turret most of the time.. their range is nice but honestly other turrets do more damage over higher ranges than a railgun. Dual 250mm Railgun doesn't seem that bad, range is poor, damage is poor, but the ROF is very fast.. I haven't used these much but doing 60 damage with a large gun seemed kind of not worth it. These guns got their tracking nerfed heavily and their optimal is not so hot sooo probably this gun sucks as well I imagine.. Hybrids are once again ther worst weapons in this game, which is why no experienced players are using hybrids, AGAIN. Last patch they weren't the best but they were atleast on par with other weapons, now they're just so much a joke that ships with hybrid bonuses aren't even using them.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Blacklight	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:26:00 - [21] Bought some 425's to try out the other day, undocked from station made 5 jumps into 0.0 and my favourite testing ground.... .....opened up on some NPC's .....wondered what the hell was going on(!) .....got over the mild panic at the shockingly low damage .....switched ammo in case that was the problem .....got over 2nd bout of mild panic .....utter dissapointment now set in .....finished the NPCs off with missiles .....left the loot .....got the hell out of there .....docked and refitted my laser combo.... The 425's are sat in my hangar collecting dust where they will stay until they get sorted. I do far more damage with my named 250's, 425's are utter rubbish. Dire, dire, shoddy weapon! Eve Blacklight Style
Scobichevskaya	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:16:00 - [22] Edited by: Liebe on 02/10/2003 05:18:52 Quote: Edited by: Lurk on 01/10/2003 22:45:51 I'm using 425mm Rails and i can tell you they SUCK ... Not that they do no damage, i have a RoF of about 5 secs and do wreckings scratching the 600s. But i have to use 4 cap power relais and controlled bursts 4 to be able to fire 5 of em. Not to mention that using ammo sucks ... The ammo problem isn't that worse with projectiles as hybrids shoot more than twice as fast. My Megathron can load a full of 2500 Shots with full cargo. Not to mention every shot costs me like 50isk. They also use far more CPU than projectiles, dunno about lasers though. Lower Ammo Volume and give the Hybrids a bit damage boost. (like +10%). I agree. Most biggest gripe is that I think that the large 425 rail and large blasters use too much cap. My 2nd largest gripe is the ammo size. I also think the tracking and optimal range of large blasters are too low. I'm still using medium 250 prototypes because they track way better than the large rails, have much lower powergrid requirements, and the ammo is much smaller and cheaper. The hybrids should be between a projectile and energy weapon. The range and tracking are sort of OK for the rails since they are between those of the projectile and energy guns, however, they could be improved by a little bit as well as have more damage. The blasters track way too slow and definitely need a boost, and/or reduce the cap usage so that if a tracking computer is used, then the cap usage isn't so much. The energy consumption might be between that of the projectiles and energy guns, but the damage done for the amount of cap that it uses isn't as good. Either boost the damage of the guns (or other features of the guns so it will hit more often) or reduce the cap usage. ------------- RUS / RUA RUSSIAN Team
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:34:00 - [23] Edited by: ClawHammer III on 02/10/2003 06:35:59 I agree that Hybrids still use too much cap for the amount of damage they inflict, rail guns in particular. I also noticed that the damage varies wildly. ItÆs not uncommon for me to get hits below 40 damage and some times below 20 on a slow moving target at 30km with a tracking computer on. I find the fact that the gun some times uses more cap units then the damage it inflicts pretty ridiculous. I probably wouldnÆt be so annoyed if I also got a proportional amount of wreaking hits but it seams like IÆm getting damage that is below normal far more often then damage that is above normal. I'm inclined to think itÆs a bug of some sort because lasers seem to hit very consistently. BTW this is with high level skills and several high-end damage mods.
agrizla	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:19:00 - [24] Heh - "off the shelf" heavy beam lasers (a medium weapon you'll note) do more DoT at 20km than 425mm rails. That's in a Gallante ship with a hybrid damage modifier fitted and no laser damage modifier fitted. Oh and it's against a stationary target (a friend's BS). Before anyone asks - yes there is a tracking enhancer running as well. Large hybrids are utterly pointless. To anyone about to train them - don't! Seriously. Just don't bother.
Abn Matar	Posted - 2003.10.02 09:18:00 - [25] This changes is what i think should be done to the hybrid guns. 452mm Rail DMG: 3x (instead of 2.5) Cap usage: 30 (instead of 35) Tracking: 0.00245 (instead of 0.0022) this will make the gun do about 132 DMG with antimatter (i do all counting from basic stats) It will make 14,66 DMG/sec and 879,6 DMG/minute. (With 2.5x it makes 12,22 DMG/sec and 733,3 DMG/minute) A tachyon makes 16,32 DMG/sec and 979,2 DMG/minute. A 1400mm makes 11,84 DMG/sec and 710,9 DMG/minute. With the 3x mod it between the laser and the proj like it should be. The cap usage will make it take 30 cap less/minute. And the tracking makes it hit better at its lower falloff. (The hybrid is not a 'hybrid' of the laser and projectile, so you cant make it better then both it should be a 'middle' thing, thereby the guns are balanced)
Lurk	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:24:00 - [26] Quote: Edited by: ClawHammer III on 02/10/2003 06:35:59 I agree that Hybrids still use too much cap for the amount of damage they inflict, rail guns in particular. I also noticed that the damage varies wildly. ItÆs not uncommon for me to get hits below 40 damage and some times below 20 on a slow moving target at 30km with a tracking computer on. I find the fact that the gun some times uses more cap units then the damage it inflicts pretty ridiculous. I probably wouldnÆt be so annoyed if I also got a proportional amount of wreaking hits but it seams like IÆm getting damage that is below normal far more often then damage that is above normal. I'm inclined to think itÆs a bug of some sort because lasers seem to hit very consistently. BTW this is with high level skills and several high-end damage mods. I experienced quite good damage results (using 3 damage mods and 1 tracking comp though). But it's not what it should be - a laser does far more damage, using little more cap and the projectile deals almost the same damage without using any cap at all. I seem to hit best at around 30-40km. Below 10km i don't even hit a Huge Scordite rock while moving at 5m/s. The 3x damage mod and a little tracking bonus should do the trick. And ... i don't get why a Dual 250mm Railgun does about the same damage over time than a 250mm Prototype (could be even less damage) ...
Lartfor	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:13:00 - [27] I personally think that the hybrids problem is not thier dmg, but thier ability to hit acuratly.
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:31:00 - [28] I made a post about this and from what I can see some how that range/damage formulas are screwed up. "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
Ph0enix	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:50:00 - [29] ******* great. just bought and trained Gallente BS skill and Large Hybrid Turret skill. i have long fought against my brothers who choose my races guns, projectiles, and have been teased for doing so. since the last patch my 250 protos have been performing worse (dunno wot they nerfed, but they nerfed something...) and with everything i've heard about the 450s..... CCP please sort out the Hybrids. up the tracking a bit and the damage a lot and i'll be happy. oh, and -50% tache dmg www.freetribes.net
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:54:00 - [30] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 02/10/2003 20:04:35 [ 2003.10.02 19:22:40 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 61.3 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:41 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I places an excellent hit on Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 299.5 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:45 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 231.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:46 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I lightly hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 7.8 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:47 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I places an excellent hit on Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 310.0 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:50 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 256.6 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:51 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I lightly hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 16.7 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:52 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I perfectly strikes Large Secure Container [EVER], wrecking for 694.3 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:55 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 83.0 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:56 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 288.3 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:22:57 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 245.6 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:00 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I lightly hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 18.9 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:01 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 101.9 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:02 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I lightly hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 8.9 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:05 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 283.0 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:06 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 231.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:07 ] (combat) Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I glances off Large Secure Container [EVER], causing no real damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:08 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 240.8 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:11 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 231.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:12 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 248.6 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 255.3 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:16 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I places an excellent hit on Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 302.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:17 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I places an excellent hit on Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 303.5 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:18 ] (combat) Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I glances off Large Secure Container [EVER], causing no real damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:21 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 77.2 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:22 ] (combat) Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I glances off Large Secure Container [EVER], causing no real damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:25 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I hits Large Secure Container [EVER], doing 231.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:26 ] (combat) Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I glances off Large Secure Container [EVER], causing no real damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:27 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 237.4 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:29 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I is well aimed at Large Secure Container [EVER], inflicting 277.7 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:33 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 106.5 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:35 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Large Secure Container [EVER], causing 95.9 damage. [ 2003.10.02 19:23:35 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Neutron Blaster Cannon I barely scratches Lar LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

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