EVE Search - On board ship functionality

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NoHawker	Posted - 2003.10.01 19:57:00 - [1] We need to do away with modules that fill in roles that ships should be able to do on their own. These are the offending modules I speak off and some of the much needed tweaking necessary to make them worth a damn. Ship Scanners û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. The scan in it self should take no more then a few seconds to complete. Cargo Scanners û Cargo scanners falls under ship scanners, their part of the same sensor array. You get an inventory list of whatÆs in the cargo and drone bays once the ship in question has been scanned via your ship scanner. Survey Scanners û Has a radius scan of 100,000km. You can organize survey results in any which way you desire. These three functions require you to waste precious mediums slots better used to make your ship combat superior to your adversary. WhatÆs hard to understand is why arenÆt these three vital eyes to the world not already in ship installed. Sensors should not be outfitted devices; they should be in built with the ship. ItÆs akin to having one require fitting an auto-pilot module on your ship. Also while I have the opportunity I would like to add tractor beams. Tractor Beam û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. Only non anchored containers can be tractored in. You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. It will be a very quick method to reel in your spoils after hunting or player killing. Also not to mention you can jettison what you wished to be delivered to an awaiting ship via tractor beam. Same functionality but in reverse where your jettisoned cargo container can be repulsed and directed to where you wish at speeds reaching several thousand kilometers per second. Tractor beams are built inside of ships and not some module you can refit. I think these suggestions are reasonable, intuitive and doesnÆt effect game play balance at all. This is why I feel CCP should take a long hard look and do some radical rethinking and changes on some of their fundamental game play mechanics here. ItÆs never too late to change this game for the better even if it means throwing away what didnÆt work and adding new seemingly different game play mechanics. If it makes the game better for every one then nothing should stand in the way of it being implemented. What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
NoHawker Amarr	Posted - 2003.10.01 19:57:00 - [2] We need to do away with modules that fill in roles that ships should be able to do on their own. These are the offending modules I speak off and some of the much needed tweaking necessary to make them worth a damn. Ship Scanners û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. The scan in it self should take no more then a few seconds to complete. Cargo Scanners û Cargo scanners falls under ship scanners, their part of the same sensor array. You get an inventory list of whatÆs in the cargo and drone bays once the ship in question has been scanned via your ship scanner. Survey Scanners û Has a radius scan of 100,000km. You can organize survey results in any which way you desire. These three functions require you to waste precious mediums slots better used to make your ship combat superior to your adversary. WhatÆs hard to understand is why arenÆt these three vital eyes to the world not already in ship installed. Sensors should not be outfitted devices; they should be in built with the ship. ItÆs akin to having one require fitting an auto-pilot module on your ship. Also while I have the opportunity I would like to add tractor beams. Tractor Beam û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. Only non anchored containers can be tractored in. You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. It will be a very quick method to reel in your spoils after hunting or player killing. Also not to mention you can jettison what you wished to be delivered to an awaiting ship via tractor beam. Same functionality but in reverse where your jettisoned cargo container can be repulsed and directed to where you wish at speeds reaching several thousand kilometers per second. Tractor beams are built inside of ships and not some module you can refit. I think these suggestions are reasonable, intuitive and doesnÆt effect game play balance at all. This is why I feel CCP should take a long hard look and do some radical rethinking and changes on some of their fundamental game play mechanics here. ItÆs never too late to change this game for the better even if it means throwing away what didnÆt work and adding new seemingly different game play mechanics. If it makes the game better for every one then nothing should stand in the way of it being implemented. What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.01 19:59:00 - [3] Ore thieves will love that tractor beam LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2003.10.01 19:59:00 - [4] Ore thieves will love that tractor beam
NoHawker	Posted - 2003.10.02 01:36:00 - [5] Quote: Ore thieves will love that tractor beam That's excatly what I was thinking but hey you can't have the with out the What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
NoHawker Amarr	Posted - 2003.10.02 01:36:00 - [6] Quote: Ore thieves will love that tractor beam That's excatly what I was thinking but hey you can't have the with out the What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
Darkwolf	Posted - 2003.10.02 02:10:00 - [7] Quote: Survey Scanners – Has a radius scan of 100,000km. You can organize survey results in any which way you desire. ... why aren’t these three vital eyes to the world not already in ship installed. ... Also while I have the opportunity I would like to add tractor beams. ... You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. It will be a very quick method to reel in your spoils after hunting or player killing ... Same functionality but in reverse where your jettisoned cargo container can be repulsed and directed to where you wish at speeds reaching several thousand kilometers per second. ... I think these suggestions are reasonable, intuitive and doesn’t effect game play balance at all. There is a very good reason why survey scanners don't allow you to sort by type, ore size, and why they have a limited range. AFK miners. See, if you could sort by type, and it had a huge range, it would be TRIVIAL for an AFK miner to rig up his macros to automatically home in on all the good ore in a system and suck it dry. Those modules aren't installed by default because, well, the ship is just a platform. You put everything you want in the ship as modules. Frankly, I'm surprised we even have the scanner we have. You don't get weapons, you don't get enhanced engines, sensory equipment, nothing. Those are all meant to be installed and customized by you. LOL, that tractor beam idea is a laugh :) Here's why I don't like it. First up, when you kill loads of stuff at range, you're MEANT to be inconvenienced flying around picking up the cans - that's a balance issue. Secondly, being able to, well, fly a cargo can like a missile... I see quite a few exploits for that (both from the thievery points of view, griefing, and also even combat). Ore thieves would LOVE this, for obvious reasons Loot thieves would also love it for similar reasons You could kill pirates in a mass spawn from huge range and retrieve their loot with zero risk (balance issue) You could grief miners by smacking them with containers to knock them away from their asteroids You could stop fast-moving players by smacking them with containers to make them easier to hit You could use an unanchored secure container to destroy missiles by running it into them You could lock onto a secure can, then fly it around shooting torpedoes at it to get around the 10 second invulnerability limit You could stop convoys by smashing them with cans and knocking them backwards so you can kill them You could keep NPC pirates away from you by belting them with secure cans to knock them backwards You could grief people by moving their cans around, or knocking them out into deep space so they can't find them You could "herd" enemies into minefields by belting them about with cans And the list goes on :) Several thousand kilometres per second is, well, overboard. Maybe it's good for Freespace, but not for here. Maybe a few hundred metres per second, yes, with only the ability to pull them in, at a fair use of capacitor charge.
Darkwolf Caldari	Posted - 2003.10.02 02:10:00 - [8] Quote: Survey Scanners – Has a radius scan of 100,000km. You can organize survey results in any which way you desire. ... why aren’t these three vital eyes to the world not already in ship installed. ... Also while I have the opportunity I would like to add tractor beams. ... You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. It will be a very quick method to reel in your spoils after hunting or player killing ... Same functionality but in reverse where your jettisoned cargo container can be repulsed and directed to where you wish at speeds reaching several thousand kilometers per second. ... I think these suggestions are reasonable, intuitive and doesn’t effect game play balance at all. There is a very good reason why survey scanners don't allow you to sort by type, ore size, and why they have a limited range. AFK miners. See, if you could sort by type, and it had a huge range, it would be TRIVIAL for an AFK miner to rig up his macros to automatically home in on all the good ore in a system and suck it dry. Those modules aren't installed by default because, well, the ship is just a platform. You put everything you want in the ship as modules. Frankly, I'm surprised we even have the scanner we have. You don't get weapons, you don't get enhanced engines, sensory equipment, nothing. Those are all meant to be installed and customized by you. LOL, that tractor beam idea is a laugh :) Here's why I don't like it. First up, when you kill loads of stuff at range, you're MEANT to be inconvenienced flying around picking up the cans - that's a balance issue. Secondly, being able to, well, fly a cargo can like a missile... I see quite a few exploits for that (both from the thievery points of view, griefing, and also even combat). Ore thieves would LOVE this, for obvious reasons Loot thieves would also love it for similar reasons You could kill pirates in a mass spawn from huge range and retrieve their loot with zero risk (balance issue) You could grief miners by smacking them with containers to knock them away from their asteroids You could stop fast-moving players by smacking them with containers to make them easier to hit You could use an unanchored secure container to destroy missiles by running it into them You could lock onto a secure can, then fly it around shooting torpedoes at it to get around the 10 second invulnerability limit You could stop convoys by smashing them with cans and knocking them backwards so you can kill them You could keep NPC pirates away from you by belting them with secure cans to knock them backwards You could grief people by moving their cans around, or knocking them out into deep space so they can't find them You could "herd" enemies into minefields by belting them about with cans And the list goes on :) Several thousand kilometres per second is, well, overboard. Maybe it's good for Freespace, but not for here. Maybe a few hundred metres per second, yes, with only the ability to pull them in, at a fair use of capacitor charge.
Red Rasputin	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Red Rasputin on 02/10/2003 03:31:28 One thing that should be considered is increasing the range of ship scanning and cargo scanning. These modules are useless today.. no point in analysing a ships combat capabilites by flying up to it at close range. Survey scanners could do with a range increase of maybe 10-20km. They should all still require a slot.
Red Rasputin	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Red Rasputin on 02/10/2003 03:31:28 One thing that should be considered is increasing the range of ship scanning and cargo scanning. These modules are useless today.. no point in analysing a ships combat capabilites by flying up to it at close range. Survey scanners could do with a range increase of maybe 10-20km. They should all still require a slot.
Kennian	Posted - 2003.10.02 09:29:00 - [11] i never realy understood why cargo, ship and survay scanners dont have the range of their complementery equipment...while i dont agree that 100k ranges are good, a survay scanner should at LEAST, at a minimum, have the same base range of the equipment it's sposed to complement. ie 11-13k for your various mineing lasers ]
Kennian Gallente Chosen Path	Posted - 2003.10.02 09:29:00 - [12] i never realy understood why cargo, ship and survay scanners dont have the range of their complementery equipment...while i dont agree that 100k ranges are good, a survay scanner should at LEAST, at a minimum, have the same base range of the equipment it's sposed to complement. ie 11-13k for your various mineing lasers ]
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.10.02 11:08:00 - [13] Quote: These three functions require you to waste precious mediums slots better used to make your ship combat superior to your adversary. That sentence and the use of the word waste shows that you have no concept of balance and trade offs. It is not waste, it is choice. Do you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship? You choice, no one elses. This isnt a game design mistake, its the intention. Yes, auto pilot could also be a module, I wouldnt mind at all in fact, I like lotsa modules. But auto pilot doesnt affect anything in the game vis a vis another player. Scanning someones cargo hold has a serious affect on game playing, such as a pirate being able to scan your hold and also mount an extra warp disruptor. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2003.10.02 11:08:00 - [14] Quote: These three functions require you to waste precious mediums slots better used to make your ship combat superior to your adversary. That sentence and the use of the word waste shows that you have no concept of balance and trade offs. It is not waste, it is choice. Do you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship? You choice, no one elses. This isnt a game design mistake, its the intention. Yes, auto pilot could also be a module, I wouldnt mind at all in fact, I like lotsa modules. But auto pilot doesnt affect anything in the game vis a vis another player. Scanning someones cargo hold has a serious affect on game playing, such as a pirate being able to scan your hold and also mount an extra warp disruptor. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
NoHawker	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:34:00 - [15] Quote: There is a very good reason why survey scanners don't allow you to sort by type, ore size, and why they have a limited range. AFK miners. See, if you could sort by type, and it had a huge range, it would be TRIVIAL for an AFK miner to rig up his macros to automatically home in on all the good ore in a system and suck it dry. Perhaps you have a point there, any way it has already been demonstrated that if one is determined to AFK then he will AFK. There are some precautions game designers can take to discourage AFK practices hopefully not at the cost of UI functionality. IÆm sure there is a middle ground here. Quote: Those modules aren't installed by default because, well, the ship is just a platform. You put everything you want in the ship as modules. Frankly, I'm surprised we even have the scanner we have. You don't get weapons, you don't get enhanced engines, sensory equipment, nothing. Those are all meant to be installed and customized by you. You can take any concept too far if your not careful and I think CCP took the module ideal and ran away with it. Platform or not there are just some things best left alone to convention. Take for example all these sci-fi shows weÆre accustomed to seeing here in the west. When was the last time you have seen star ships requiring modular fitting for the most basic of sensors. If that analogy isnÆt good enough for you then let us turn to reality. Naval ships have little to no modular design especially when it comes to their ôeyesö to the world. Radar, sonar, radio, optical instruments, acoustics, thermal/night vision, ectà are not modular components that can be swapped and interchanged. There is no reason for ships in EVE to be blind unless they are willing to accommodate a crippling set up that will surely mean certain death if facing a comparable opponent. Quote: LOL, that tractor beam idea is a laugh :) Here's why I don't like it. First up, when you kill loads of stuff at range, you're MEANT to be inconvenienced flying around picking up the cans - that's a balance issue. Secondly, being able to, well, fly a cargo can like a missile... I see quite a few exploits for that (both from the thievery points of view, griefing, and also even combat). Laugh it up chuckles because itÆs already in the works. Well there is more to it then just the ideal it also needs good implementation. I only brought up the concept the devil is in the details, but it is doable. Quote: That sentence and the use of the word waste shows that you have no concept of balance and trade offs. It is not waste, it is choice. Do you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship? You choice, no one elses. This isnt a game design mistake, its the intention. Excuse me but there have been many game intentions that have turned out to been mistakesà stacking any one? ôDo you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship?ö lol I want them to be both! ThereÆs a few misleading thoughts one can come up with reading that question at face value. First just because a warship has great detection abilities doesnÆt mean it was designed as a sensor ship and secondly the most powerful weapon platforms also need to have great situational awareness. The M1A1 didnÆt ravage Iraqi Republican Guard tank forces just because the M1A1 had bigger better guns but because she always saw the enemy firstà in most encounters the Iraqis never knew what hit themà literally. Quote: Yes, auto pilot could also be a module, I wouldnt mind at all in fact, I like lotsa modules. But auto pilot doesnt affect anything in the game vis a vis another player. Scanning someones cargo hold has a serious affect on game playing, such as a pirate being able to scan your hold and also mount an extra warp disruptor. This is exactly what I mean by taking a concept too far, when does it stop? When all ships have the same ability to scan their opponent there is no effect in game playà things just get changed around a bit. No more bluffing when a gaggle of frigates find out your Megathron is more equipped like a MegaMiner. Playing field is level since no one has the upper hand especially since the changes are universal. What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
NoHawker Amarr	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:34:00 - [16] Quote: There is a very good reason why survey scanners don't allow you to sort by type, ore size, and why they have a limited range. AFK miners. See, if you could sort by type, and it had a huge range, it would be TRIVIAL for an AFK miner to rig up his macros to automatically home in on all the good ore in a system and suck it dry. Perhaps you have a point there, any way it has already been demonstrated that if one is determined to AFK then he will AFK. There are some precautions game designers can take to discourage AFK practices hopefully not at the cost of UI functionality. IÆm sure there is a middle ground here. Quote: Those modules aren't installed by default because, well, the ship is just a platform. You put everything you want in the ship as modules. Frankly, I'm surprised we even have the scanner we have. You don't get weapons, you don't get enhanced engines, sensory equipment, nothing. Those are all meant to be installed and customized by you. You can take any concept too far if your not careful and I think CCP took the module ideal and ran away with it. Platform or not there are just some things best left alone to convention. Take for example all these sci-fi shows weÆre accustomed to seeing here in the west. When was the last time you have seen star ships requiring modular fitting for the most basic of sensors. If that analogy isnÆt good enough for you then let us turn to reality. Naval ships have little to no modular design especially when it comes to their ôeyesö to the world. Radar, sonar, radio, optical instruments, acoustics, thermal/night vision, ectà are not modular components that can be swapped and interchanged. There is no reason for ships in EVE to be blind unless they are willing to accommodate a crippling set up that will surely mean certain death if facing a comparable opponent. Quote: LOL, that tractor beam idea is a laugh :) Here's why I don't like it. First up, when you kill loads of stuff at range, you're MEANT to be inconvenienced flying around picking up the cans - that's a balance issue. Secondly, being able to, well, fly a cargo can like a missile... I see quite a few exploits for that (both from the thievery points of view, griefing, and also even combat). Laugh it up chuckles because itÆs already in the works. Well there is more to it then just the ideal it also needs good implementation. I only brought up the concept the devil is in the details, but it is doable. Quote: That sentence and the use of the word waste shows that you have no concept of balance and trade offs. It is not waste, it is choice. Do you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship? You choice, no one elses. This isnt a game design mistake, its the intention. Excuse me but there have been many game intentions that have turned out to been mistakesà stacking any one? ôDo you want your ship to be a sensor ship or combat ship?ö lol I want them to be both! ThereÆs a few misleading thoughts one can come up with reading that question at face value. First just because a warship has great detection abilities doesnÆt mean it was designed as a sensor ship and secondly the most powerful weapon platforms also need to have great situational awareness. The M1A1 didnÆt ravage Iraqi Republican Guard tank forces just because the M1A1 had bigger better guns but because she always saw the enemy firstà in most encounters the Iraqis never knew what hit themà literally. Quote: Yes, auto pilot could also be a module, I wouldnt mind at all in fact, I like lotsa modules. But auto pilot doesnt affect anything in the game vis a vis another player. Scanning someones cargo hold has a serious affect on game playing, such as a pirate being able to scan your hold and also mount an extra warp disruptor. This is exactly what I mean by taking a concept too far, when does it stop? When all ships have the same ability to scan their opponent there is no effect in game playà things just get changed around a bit. No more bluffing when a gaggle of frigates find out your Megathron is more equipped like a MegaMiner. Playing field is level since no one has the upper hand especially since the changes are universal. What are you going to do? I'm going to kill them all sir
Deadeye Devie	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Deadeye Devie on 02/08/2007 18:52:29 my pesonal oppinion, stop typing and think. You want to have your ship to both be combat and scanning/recon? then why bother joining a corp or someone studying for scanning? you want your tractor beams to be the same range as your guns?...then whats the use of setting up a pure salvage boat to run around the Lvl 4 mission salvaging and collecting whilst the big tank does the work. and the night vision/radar analogy...in every naval battle there is 1 logistical ship in the fleet, scanning, searching and feeding the results back to the rest so that they may do thier job better...aka shooting big guns at the target.......AWACS aircraft?...they fly over warzones scanning to feed back the info to the rest of the pilots so they know what and where to hit. all in all, if you do away with these modules you are removing a task that ships specify for, and pilots train for. if you want to scan AND fight, get a second account and train up a recon ship. i for one am training up a small frigate recon and salvage pilot, designed to give the rest of my corp that little edge in battle, finding out the enemies position, what weapons there rocking, what ammo they are loaded with, and perhaps what loot they have...this is so when the big boys hit, they know what there weak to, and which ones should be the first to take out. all in all this suggestion sounds too much like the request of someone who plays solo and so the whole essence of the online-ness of this game is escaping them. Learn to scan or just learn to tank n shoot...its your choice. The ship is a blank canvas, on which you create your own vehicle for which you have trained for, be that mining, salvaging, trading, combat, or whatever floats your boat. it comes with an engine, a basic serching capacity, and points on which to install the modules to perform the task you choose...pick a job and be happy you have the ship you have.
Anferney Ethereal Mercenary Services FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:57:00 - [18] Originally by: NoHawker Ship Scanners û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. The scan in it self should take no more then a few seconds to complete. Cargo Scanners û Cargo scanners falls under ship scanners, their part of the same sensor array. You get an inventory list of whatÆs in the cargo and drone bays once the ship in question has been scanned via your ship scanner. Survey Scanners û Has a radius scan of 100,000km. You can organize survey results in any which way you desire. These three functions require you to waste precious mediums slots better used to make your ship combat superior to your adversary. WhatÆs hard to understand is why arenÆt these three vital eyes to the world not already in ship installed. Sensors should not be outfitted devices; they should be in built with the ship. ItÆs akin to having one require fitting an auto-pilot module on your ship. Your ship does come with sensors. It can tell you what type of ship they are flying, how healthy it is, etc. Similarly, it can tell you what ypes of ore are nearby. These scanners simply allow more specialized functions. Think of it this was: the general scanner gives you information about everything around you. These give you specifics about specific ships/rocks/whatever. Quote: Tractor Beam û Should equal the same range as your maximum target acquisition. Only non anchored containers can be tractored in. You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. It will be a very quick method to reel in your spoils after hunting or player killing. Also not to mention you can jettison what you wished to be delivered to an awaiting ship via tractor beam. Same functionality but in reverse where your jettisoned cargo container can be repulsed and directed to where you wish at speeds reaching several thousand kilometers per second. Tractor beams are built inside of ships and not some module you can refit. Why shouldn't it be a module? They are a high power, high cost, advanced system. It does not make sense to put such a demanding system onto every ship by default. Here it is. Isn't it unique?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:04:00 - [19] Ship Scanner - you do have a ship scanner, if you want a better one you have to fit it. Tractor Bean - you do have one, it has a max range of 1500m and can only be use to transfer items, between containers and/or you cargo hold. Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
ET pwnedhome	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:05:00 - [20] I can't stop laughing at the thought of fleets of ships all whacking each other with jet cans quantum arsemode FTW!
Ndbele	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Ndbele on 02/08/2007 19:07:48 stupid necro
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:28:00 - [22] Originally by: NoHawker You can pull in a cargo container at several thousand kilometers per second. i have to agree the sensors are something of a waste of module space but are you entirely sure you want to pull something directly at your ship that weighs thousands of tonnes at that kind of speed? there is a self destruct button after all
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:11:00 - [23] I had to get all the way to the minefields being mentioned to realise it was a necro, I'm getting slow. ~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005.
El Verbatim	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:36:00 - [24] Edited by: El Verbatim on 03/08/2007 10:36:28 Originally by: Deadeye Devie my pesonal oppinion, stop typing and think. EXCELLENT ADVICE.... but use that advice yourself too please... you responded to a thread from 2003....
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:38:00 - [25] I find it amusing that you think tractor beams are not worth a damn. I don't think many people will agree with you. Not even close. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:57:00 - [26] thread locked. Please do not bring back ancient threads from the dead. If you must comment on an old thread, please create a new one and link/refer to the old one. -Jacques forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!


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