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Lack of true Anti-frigate BS weapons

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Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:28:00 - [1] To whom it concerns, When you look at the tracking and calibre of all weapons available for BS you notice one thing their is not a selection available that will be usefull against tech 1 frigates and assualt frigates. The lowest calibre for Projectiles is Dual 425mm which are designed to take out cruisers at best. I know you can use webbers or drones and specialised tech II missiles(see precission cruise). The problem with that is that for the webbers, valueable mid slots are wasted by useing webbers and if you take into account the effects of Micro Warps or Afterburners make on the various small targets make it impossible to hit them even with the aid of webbers in the first place. What we need is more variety of weapons i.e for large projectiles have the larger equivalents of the mediums dual 180mm and 220mm. Therefore you would have Quad 180mm and Dual or triple 220mm Autocannons. At the moment you have no alternative but to go to your lesser medium technology if you do not want or have the ability to use webbers, drones or tech II precision missiles. Thankyou Brechan Skene
Amerame	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:33:00 - [2] Oh, this thread again. You might not be aware of it, but there has been already countless threads of dozens of pages on this very topic, you might want to check them out.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:36:00 - [3] Hm, yes fitting Med/Small guns on a BS is not allowed because they dont fit. Duh. Not to mention Large Nos does nothing. Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Svenholio	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:46:00 - [4] plenty of options, shh
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:46:00 - [5] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Hm, yes fitting Med/Small guns on a BS is not allowed because they dont fit. Duh. Not to mention Large Nos does nothing. QFT Webbers ar useless as well, as are drones. When you see my Harpy come at your BS, just save me some time and self-destruct because there's no mod in EVE that will help you.
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2006.07.11 02:51:00 - [6] Battleships are super vulnerable. Frigates can kill anything and the inty lobby makes the devs nerf battleships. Also the Raven and everything caldari suck. /detaurus mode
Grml Z	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:20:00 - [7] I dont think you need special anti frig weapons. I liked fighting frig gangs in my apo,frigs die so fast. There are enough modules to counter frigs. Only problem is ecm,but special anti frig weapons wont help you against that. _____________ High sec mining specialist. _____________ I am a NoOb,and i am proud to be one! :P _____________ i cant speak english
Nastro Azzura	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:24:00 - [8] This one time, I fitted Smartbombs, and all the frigs went boom. -------------------- Looking to join a pirate corp. Contact me for info.
Mo Steel	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:41:00 - [9] So... your complaining that group battles should be varied, and instead you want /everyone/ to be in a BS? Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:54:00 - [10] Edited by: Brechan Skene on 11/07/2006 03:57:18 Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Hm, yes fitting Med/Small guns on a BS is not allowed because they dont fit. Duh. 1. Where did I say you cannot put medium or light weapons onto a BS?Try reading the post! Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Not to mention Large Nos does nothing. 2. So everyone must follow the same way and become predictable!
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Mo Steel So... your complaining that group battles should be varied, and instead you want /everyone/ to be in a BS? When did I say that everyone must be in a BS? Could you show me please?
Mr Peanut	Posted - 2006.07.11 04:00:00 - [12] Large guns are supposed to suck against frigs. That's the point of frigs: they're small and fast, so they're hard to hit with bigger guns. If you changed this, frigs would be almost pointless from a combat perspective. You're supposed to have to fit the modules/drones/etc that you named to be effective against frigs. What you are asking for is to make BSs "I-win buttons", and EVE just isn't about that. Just because your ship costs more/takes more skills to pilot doesn't mean that it pwns every gang whos ships' combined skills required/cost doesn't total to yours. Look at faction BSs. For examble, a Navy Raven could cost as much as 10-12 Ravens (or even more), but could never stand up alone against 10-12 Ravens. EVE is a game of equal opportunity, where frigs can beat the **** out of BSs and carriers can get a spanking from a cruiser fleet.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.07.11 04:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia QFT Webbers ar useless as well, as are drones. When you see my Harpy come at your BS, just save me some time and self-destruct because there's no mod in EVE that will help you.[:lol: What part of the original post are you confused with? I said that webbers and quite ineffective to counter extremely fast smaller ships! All I want is have a variety in the weapons I can use. Why is the choice of tech I too tech II Quad 180mm or dual or tri-220mm for example soo horrible for some people? Can you Answer that? Why do we have to have a reduced choice of the weapons we can use? Answer that?
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.07.11 04:10:00 - [14] Honestly we don't need more anti-frig weapons, but it would still be awesomely cool to have like...8 barrel gatling 150mm rails, 280mm artillery, and medium beams. -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.07.11 04:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Mr Peanut Large guns are supposed to suck against frigs. That's the point of frigs: they're small and fast, so they're hard to hit with bigger guns. True, BS are supposed to have a majority of the weapons as being large. But when we compare to the Navies of the past. Especially todays Navies you will note that even the largets ships have the utilisation of anti-fighter/ smaller boat technology. I would like the technology to be true to the Eve universe. I do not want it as a 'game balanceing' way. Originally by: Mr Peanut If you changed this, frigs would be almost pointless from a combat perspective. No. They will not become pointless. The frigate pilot would have to think before engageing. Originally by: Mr Peanut You're supposed to have to fit the modules/drones/etc that you named to be effective against frigs. Yes. That is true. All I wanted to do was increase the choice that we have. This means less predictability. Originally by: Mr Peanut What you are asking for is to make BSs "I-win buttons", and EVE just isn't about that. Where did I say I wanted an 'I-win button' in the original post? Also if you have the lower end weapons that I had suggested, for example the quad 180mm and 220mm therefore their total overall dps of the BS will be reduced Theirfore they will be vulnerable to multi high end ship attack. This is not an 'I win button' especially if you can think.
Filan Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.07.11 05:21:00 - [16] while it is true that a BS can mount systems that swat frigates the glaring hole is that destroyers lack the surviveablility to fly with the BS packs and serve as point defense. buff the destroyer enough to handle all frigates and let BS fight BS.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.07.11 05:31:00 - [17] to the OP: what exactly is the problem with drones for this task? what BS has less than 25m3 drone bay? ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Pan Zhu'Liang	Posted - 2006.07.11 05:32:00 - [18] while i agree that more toys to put on ships is a good thing in general, the fact of the matter is that battleships already have as many (if not more) options against frigs than they do against other battleships. assault launchers, smart bombs, nos, and medium guns are all high slot weapons that fill the role you describe. why exactly does it matter if there are guns which do exactly what medium guns do but designated for battleships only? and if you're suggesting that these new battleship anti-frig weapons be more powerful than current mediums, then they would be over-powered in their role.
rapert	Posted - 2006.07.11 05:48:00 - [19] LOL mission runners FTL
Logan Xerxes	Posted - 2006.07.11 05:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Over Battleships were never designed to be solopwnmobiles.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.11 07:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Kel Shek to the OP: what exactly is the problem with drones for this task? what BS has less than 75m3 drone bay? Corrected
mrg29	Posted - 2006.07.11 07:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Brechan Skene At the moment you have no alternative but to go to your lesser medium technology if you do not want or have the ability to use webbers, drones or tech II precision missiles. i thought i had to quote this part of the OP. u claim in later posts u want MORE choice but dont want to HAVE to train for drones? so basically u want less choice. u want to be able to train for a single skilltree that does everything for u? u ask for weapons u can fit on a BS that track better than current BS weapons but do less dps. that sounds like a description of current medium size weapons to me. u do also realise that alot of existing medium size weapons cannot hit a close-orbitting frig without the use of a webber but u want a BS size weapon that can? all BS can carry, at least, 5 medium drones and 5 light drones. personally i find these to be rather effective against frigs without having to use a webber. u keep claiming u dont want an "I-WIN" button but seem to be averse to using options already available to u. -
TheDevilsJury	Posted - 2006.07.11 07:21:00 - [23] Edited by: TheDevilsJury on 11/07/2006 07:23:44 To whom it concerns, When you look at the number of slots and the damage of all weapons available for frigates you notice one thing their is not a selection available that will be usefull against battleships. The highest calibre for Projectiles is 280mm Artillery which are designed to take out cruisers at best. I know you can use speed or ewar and a gang of friends(see blobs). The problem with that is that for the speed, valueable mid slots are wasted by useing afterburners or MWDs and if you take into account the effects of unbreakable tanks make on the various large targets make it impossible to kill them even with the aid your tiny itsy-bitsy guns in the first place. At the moment you have no alternative but to go to your bigger ships technology if you do not want or have the ability to use speed, ewar or a big gang. Thankyou EDIT: not wanting to look like a flame, but firstly there should be no frig that can solo a properly fitted BS. Secondly, all the current solutions work just fine - med/small guns, drones, etc. I see no need for what has been suggested as it doesn't seem to be any reason for it. ----------------------- sig below Originally by: ISD I don't think I've ever seen anyone hijack their own thread before
Mirasta	Posted - 2006.07.11 08:05:00 - [24] Edited by: Mirasta on 11/07/2006 08:05:05 Originally by: Brechan Skene Originally by: Mr Peanut Large guns are supposed to suck against frigs. That's the point of frigs: they're small and fast, so they're hard to hit with bigger guns. True, BS are supposed to have a majority of the weapons as being large. But when we compare to the Navies of the past. Especially todays Navies you will note that even the largest ships have the utilisation of anti-fighter/ smaller boat technology. I would like the technology to be true to the Eve universe. I do not want it as a 'game balancing' way. You do have the option of utilizing all kinds of smaller weapons on your BS, it quite simply involves going to your items hanger, dusting off that dual 150mm rail and dragging that to a high slot. The side effects of this are your total WTFpwnAbility will be reduced when fighting a heavier target, but seen as youÆre after a BS that can take out all targets you do want balance, Rite? Seen as you know so much about naval warfare, personally I dont, but you will probably know that a BS would sail with a group of lighter ships when on a combat mission to protect it from such smaller targets. Originally by: Brechan Skene Originally by: Mr Peanut If you changed this, frigs would be almost pointless from a combat perspective. No. They will not become pointless. The frigate pilot would have to think before engaging. Ill tell you now, if your thinking that a frig gang leader doesnÆt asses every situation and possibility of the out fitting of every battleship target it en counters, your simply wrong. You will find a lot of BS pilots know about roaming frig gangs and will fit 8 smart bombs for just this purpose. My suggestion: DonÆt try taking out frigs on your own unless youÆre sniping for SillyKM, take a few support ships that are better at the job that you are. When you see local jump 10-15 players, stop ratting and dock. BS arenÆt meant to be Solo PWNmobiles
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.07.11 08:24:00 - [25] Quote: Battleships were never designed to be solopwnmobiles. Correct. Years ago in the early days of EvE a turrets ability to hit its target had nothing to do with relative sizes of the guns and target. BS guns could hit frigates as easily as they did battleships and cruisers. As people acquired more isk and skillpoints it became apparent that PvP was becoming a case of getting into a battleship as fast as possible, becuase with it you could kill any other smaller ship class much more easily. BS were basically the "solopwnmobiles". As you've probably guessed, this is the reason why we now have target size relative to the weapon factored into hit calculations, and as a result pvp is much more diverse with every ship class being competative in a given combat situation. If you want a battleship to be efficient at killing small ships all the modules you need are there (small guns, webs, nos, drones and so on). The price you pay for fitting to kill smaller targets with your BS is that you are less effective at killing larger targets. This need to balance your ship is what promotes team work, specialisation within pvp in Eve. "Battleships cost more than frigates." This argument is used alot to justify why a BS should be 'better' than a frigate. The mistake here is failing to recognise that better = more flexible. A battleship has more CPU, PWG, slots, shield/armour etc and can be configured for a far wider variety of situations than a frigate can with the durability to pull it off. THAT is what you are paying the extra isk for. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
4 LOM	Posted - 2006.07.11 08:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Brechan Skene Originally by: Mr Peanut Large guns are supposed to suck against frigs. That's the point of frigs: they're small and fast, so they're hard to hit with bigger guns. True, BS are supposed to have a majority of the weapons as being large. But when we compare to the Navies of the past. Especially todays Navies you will note that even the largets ships have the utilisation of anti-fighter/ smaller boat technology. I would like the technology to be true to the Eve universe. I do not want it as a 'game balanceing' way. Stupid people make my brain hurt. no one is stoping you from fitting 2 or 3 small or medium weapons to deal with frigs. So what you want is a large gun that is only good at hitting small ships? why not just fit a small gun, problem solved. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.07.11 08:41:00 - [27] Or, horror of horrors, you could have a friend escort your battleship in a point-defence cruiser or frigate... Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.07.11 09:21:00 - [28] No way to get this past the inty lobby I am afraid. Giving battleships more options against frigs might scratch on their own solopwnmobile status, and there is no way we can let that happen, is there? Of course, it would make a whole lot of sense to give those crappy 'dual' weapons, which noone in his right mind uses, the sig resolution and tracking of their parent weapon just like they got the crappy range of their parent weapon, so fitting something against smaller ships only gimps your setup against other battleships instead of ruining it, but again, that must not happen. After all, frigs have to ruin their setup as well to be effective against battleships rather than other frigs. Oh wait!! They don't?!? Okay for real. Right now the only truly effective frig defense a Battleship has is nos (And even that one is hard pressed when outnumbered because it does not kill). Web range is very limited and any smart frig pilot will stay out of it. Drones perform not all that hot and are easily shot down (xcept maybe the Domis, but not every Battleship is a Domi...). And undersized weapons have have far too devastating an effect on your anti-battleship capabilities to be a serious consideration. So really what would be so wrong about giving this one type of weapons a better ability to fight smaller targets? It is not like a dual heavy pulse laser would become the wtfpwnage weapon against frigates from that. But it would have a better chance to hit them, and still offer some measure of anti-battleship capability. Note: dual autocannons are NOT 'dual' weapons in the sense of the word as I mean it since they did not inherit any stats from their 'parent' weapon, so would not count for this, or would have to get their stats nerfed to be eligible. A current dual 425mm Autocannon with 125m sig res and 0.1ish tracking would indeed be rather overpowderedÖ. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.07.11 10:13:00 - [29] buff heavy nos they're useless vs frigs
Crellion	Posted - 2006.07.11 13:20:00 - [30] No need to say overpowered. Create a BS weapon (say ... triple 150 rails for example) that has same range and accuracy as the frig weapon but is affected by the BS bonus to L guns. Say 7 of them on a Megathron giving 300 DPS (anti matter) with no damage mods... tbh I can see nothing wrong with that... 6 triple 180 proj on a Tempy giving 250 DPS etc etc... make them use S ammo at crazy rates (3 units per shot) to make them a bit akward to use... Other than the fact that it would be a bother for CCP to sit down and make them and balance them I think its a fine idea. Overpowered? no way.

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