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Lack of true Anti-frigate BS weapons

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Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.11 13:30:00 - [31] I see no reason why a battleship should be able to shoot frigates at all. Battleships are supposed to fly around with support, so really they shouldn't need to worry. But even if solo, there are drones, nosferatu, smartbombs and nothing stops them from fitting frig guns. I think it's fine the way it is. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
mrg29 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.11 13:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Crellion No need to say overpowered. Create a BS weapon (say ... triple 150 rails for example) that has same range and accuracy as the frig weapon but is affected by the BS bonus to L guns. Say 7 of them on a Megathron giving 300 DPS (anti matter) with no damage mods... tbh I can see nothing wrong with that... 6 triple 180 proj on a Tempy giving 250 DPS etc etc... make them use S ammo at crazy rates (3 units per shot) to make them a bit akward to use... Other than the fact that it would be a bother for CCP to sit down and make them and balance them I think its a fine idea. Overpowered? no way. but what is the point having CCP spend development time on guns that do EXACTLY THE SAME as medium or small guns already do just because people dont seem to want to fit medium or small guns on a BS. -
Crellion	Posted - 2006.07.11 14:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Crellion on 11/07/2006 15:00:49 Originally by: mrg29 Originally by: Crellion No need to say overpowered. Create a BS weapon (say ... triple 150 rails for example) that has same range and accuracy as the frig weapon but is affected by the BS bonus to L guns. Say 7 of them on a Megathron giving 300 DPS (anti matter) with no damage mods... tbh I can see nothing wrong with that... 6 triple 180 proj on a Tempy giving 250 DPS etc etc... make them use S ammo at crazy rates (3 units per shot) to make them a bit akward to use... Other than the fact that it would be a bother for CCP to sit down and make them and balance them I think its a fine idea. Overpowered? no way. but what is the point having CCP spend development time on guns that do EXACTLY THE SAME as medium or small guns already do just because people dont seem to want to fit medium or small guns on a BS. Because medium and small guns are not affected by ship bonuses... I thought that was obvious? Also because if you dedicate a BS on small Caliber guns you should get more DPS than a frig dedicated to small calibre guns and less DPS than a BS dedicated to large calibre guns.
McScruff Terra Incognita Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:02:00 - [34] If you want to have defences against smaller ships you have to sacrifice firepower to fit smaller guns. clearly some people here would rather loose a battle ship than fit a weapon that doesn't get the maximum dps out of the ship! Good gods we must be CRAZY to sugest it! You seem to want a weapon thats effective against frigs that will allso be efective against BS's. Sorry, not going to happen. ______________________________________ Warning: May contain traces of sarcasm
McScruff Terra Incognita Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Crellion Also because if you dedicate a BS on small Caliber guns you should get more DPS than a frig dedicated to small calibre guns and less DPS than a BS dedicated to large calibre guns. Why? You are fitting the same guns. Why should a BS ( a ship designed to use Large guns) be better with small guns than a Frig (a ship designed to use small guns)? ______________________________________ Warning: May contain traces of sarcasm
mrg29 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Crellion Edited by: Crellion on 11/07/2006 15:00:49 Originally by: mrg29 Originally by: Crellion No need to say overpowered. Create a BS weapon (say ... triple 150 rails for example) that has same range and accuracy as the frig weapon but is affected by the BS bonus to L guns. Say 7 of them on a Megathron giving 300 DPS (anti matter) with no damage mods... tbh I can see nothing wrong with that... 6 triple 180 proj on a Tempy giving 250 DPS etc etc... make them use S ammo at crazy rates (3 units per shot) to make them a bit akward to use... Other than the fact that it would be a bother for CCP to sit down and make them and balance them I think its a fine idea. Overpowered? no way. but what is the point having CCP spend development time on guns that do EXACTLY THE SAME as medium or small guns already do just because people dont seem to want to fit medium or small guns on a BS. Because medium and small guns are not affected by ship bonuses... I thought that was obvious? Also because if you dedicate a BS on small Caliber guns you should get more DPS than a frig dedicated to small calibre guns and less DPS than a BS dedicated to large calibre guns. and there u get the problem. as soon as u allow these "new" guns to recieve the ship bonuses and that makes them more effective than current small or medium weapons but with the same, or even better, tracking that starts to become a balance issue. the OP wants BS size guns that can track and hit orbitting frigs without a webber. some frig sized guns CANT track and hit orbitting frigs unless u web them. -
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:31:00 - [37] To the OP: BS guns that use BS bonus but can hit frigs at close range are overpowered and would throw 2 years of balancing out the window. The lower tier Large BS guns do suck monkey n uts and do need some improvement. Have you used small and medium tech 2 drones against frigates? If not, please do so and respond. If so I dont think you would have posted. Signature removed - File size too large.Laurelin
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:34:00 - [38] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 11/07/2006 15:36:27 Originally by: Brechan Skene Originally by: Malthros Zenobia QFT Webbers ar useless as well, as are drones. When you see my Harpy come at your BS, just save me some time and self-destruct because there's no mod in EVE that will help you.[:lol: What part of the original post are you confused with? I said that webbers and quite ineffective to counter extremely fast smaller ships! All I want is have a variety in the weapons I can use. Why is the choice of tech I too tech II Quad 180mm or dual or tri-220mm for example soo horrible for some people? Can you Answer that? Why do we have to have a reduced choice of the weapons we can use? Answer that? If I hit you with a 90% webber and you have a MWD on, that 500m/s still won't do much when my missiles simply rip you a new *******, or my drones will do it for me since you're going to have a nice big sig radius. And if you're only using an AB, you're going to be going a nice slow, hitable speed. And let's not forget that when you're being webbed, you're also being NOSed. Just how effective do you think your inty is going to be with no cap, and going maybe 100 m/s?
Lisento Slaven Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.11 15:35:00 - [39] Small Guns = Anti Frig Some people are saying the OP wants a BS size gun designed to kill frigates. This is a strategy game. You will be removing parts of the strategy from the game. Just because you want your Large Turret bonus or Cruise Missile bonus to apply to anti-frig weapons doesn't mean it will make the game good. Put small turrets, smartbombs, NOS, light drones, webber, or anything else on your battleship. Stop making up excuses so you can have a ship that doesn't need to sacrifice things to do certain tasks. The SACRIFICE is what makes fitting your ship a strategy game in itself. "Hmmm...if I put a smartbomb on...I'll need to get close to use it. But if I come across a 150+km sniper it will be a wasted highslot. I know! I'll complain that I want a smartbomb that can affect that 150+km sniper so things will be easier for me!" Use smaller turrets, any of the other anti-frig modules, or bring friends. Simple as that. You have the options, use them. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Moornblade	Posted - 2006.07.15 02:33:00 - [40] I'm confused. Are you a troll? Are you saying that everyone weapon should be useful against frigates? While I do appreciate the humor in the possibility of citadel torpedos doing full damage versus frigates, there are a wide variety of anti-frigate weapons avaliable. 1. Sniping with rails or artillery. You'll hit frigs just fine when their traversal velocity is near 0. 2. Drones. 'Nuff said. Have you seen what 5 T2 Light Drones do to a frigate? 3. Smart bombs. 'Nuff said. Have you seen what even 1 or 2 large smart bombs does to a frigate? 4. Precision missiles. You mention these. Perhaps you should use them? 5. Webbers. These have more applications that just frigates, ahem. Webbers are a staple for any close range pilot. And if you're a long range pilot, see #1. 6. Your gang members in destroyers. Yeah; they introduced an anti-frigate ship class. Who wouldda thunk? 7. Use tracking comps, and ships with a tracking bonus. Electron blasters base tracking is okay; and with comps/bonus you can get it pretty high. 8. Use a mid or small sized weapon. Wow! You even use a fraction of the CPU or powergrid for a much more modest reduction in damage. Ever seen the thoraxes with 1600m plate and light blasters? 9. Other options. I'm conviced your a troll by this point, so I'm giving up. Originally by: Brechan Skene To whom it concerns, When you look at the tracking and calibre of all weapons available for BS you notice one thing their is not a selection available that will be usefull against tech 1 frigates and assualt frigates. The lowest calibre for Projectiles is Dual 425mm which are designed to take out cruisers at best. I know you can use webbers or drones and specialised tech II missiles(see precission cruise). The problem with that is that for the webbers, valueable mid slots are wasted by useing webbers and if you take into account the effects of Micro Warps or Afterburners make on the various small targets make it impossible to hit them even with the aid of webbers in the first place. What we need is more variety of weapons i.e for large projectiles have the larger equivalents of the mediums dual 180mm and 220mm. Therefore you would have Quad 180mm and Dual or triple 220mm Autocannons. At the moment you have no alternative but to go to your lesser medium technology if you do not want or have the ability to use webbers, drones or tech II precision missiles. Thankyou Brechan Skene
Leon 026 Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.15 02:37:00 - [41] Do we really need MORE anti-frig weapons? ------------------------------- [ 2006.06.22 04:28:01 ] Leon 026 > My Crow dances like she's on ecstasy
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.07.15 02:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Leon 026 Do we really need MORE anti-frig weapons? yes bring back mines
Benglada Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.07.15 03:10:00 - [43] if this were implemented it would be 2k4 all over again. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Murukan Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 04:11:00 - [44] you win dumbass post of the year. Web/drone/nos can sure do fine against frigs. Plus you could always fit smartbombs, or you could just laugh at them trying to break a halfway decent tank? In rust we trust!!!
Nemain Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.15 04:13:00 - [45] All bs have drone bays, keep a healthy supply of mediums and lights in them for anti frig defence. I hate wasting weapon slots on small weapons as it puts you at a disadvantage versus other BS. So drones are the answer, T2 mediums are good against all ship sizes.
Permian	Posted - 2006.07.15 04:27:00 - [46] There is a lot of anti-BS and anti-inty sentiment on these forums. The problem is that ship fits are all-or-nothing. You fit your ship for one incredibly specialized/particular purpose, and while it's really good for that one thing, it completely sucks for everything else. If you don't fit your BS to kill frigs, you won't be able to kill frigs. If you fit your BS to kill frigs, you won't be able to kill anything but frigs. of course, frigs don't have this problem but whatever
Knoppaz Union of Corvus Corax	Posted - 2006.07.15 08:02:00 - [47] Webbers are ineffective to counter Frigs?? ..someone needs to get a clue
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.07.15 08:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Maya Rkell Brechan Skene, Any such option is going to be overpowered. However, dual (lowest tier) weapons DO need boosting. Halving their sig resoloution would do. This would be nice to see, at the moment the only reason not to fit the biggest turret possible is fitting requirements. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Mogrin	Posted - 2006.07.15 09:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Brechan Skene To whom it concerns, When you look at the tracking and calibre of all weapons available for BS you notice one thing their is not a selection available that will be usefull against tech 1 frigates and assualt frigates. The lowest calibre for Projectiles is Dual 425mm which are designed to take out cruisers at best. I know you can use webbers or drones and specialised tech II missiles(see precission cruise). The problem with that is that for the webbers, valueable mid slots are wasted by useing webbers and if you take into account the effects of Micro Warps or Afterburners make on the various small targets make it impossible to hit them even with the aid of webbers in the first place. What we need is more variety of weapons i.e for large projectiles have the larger equivalents of the mediums dual 180mm and 220mm. Therefore you would have Quad 180mm and Dual or triple 220mm Autocannons. At the moment you have no alternative but to go to your lesser medium technology if you do not want or have the ability to use webbers, drones or tech II precision missiles. Thankyou Brechan Skene Welcome to EVE, noob! Battleships are not meant to be the cure-all fighting platform. If you want to shoot down frigates with precision, use smaller weapons. Let me ask you a question now. What the bloody hell would be the point of other ships if a battleship could have the equivelent of 32 small turrets or 16 medium turrets? Don't bother answering that noob, it is whats known as a hypothetical question!
Mortuus Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 09:37:00 - [50] Originally by: Permian There is a lot of anti-BS and anti-inty sentiment on these forums. The problem is that ship fits are all-or-nothing. You fit your ship for one incredibly specialized/particular purpose, and while it's really good for that one thing, it completely sucks for everything else. If you don't fit your BS to kill frigs, you won't be able to kill frigs. If you fit your BS to kill frigs, you won't be able to kill anything but frigs. of course, frigs don't have this problem but whatever Yea, because I've always had such a hard time tanking that one frigate, or two...or three...in a well built BS fit. Especially when I unleash a couple nos and some drones onto them. Hell, I even manage to get a heavy nos on my arty tempest just in case of an interceptor. Combined with some tech2 drones and a web drone they die really really fast. And I still have all 6 1400 tech2's and a decent tank. Its not all or nothing, its just playing smart. I run a Jaguar and Wolf that have no real prayer of killing a well fit BS. Any half competent BS pilot should be able to shred a couple frigates. My Claw does fine till someone hits it with a nos and web drone, then its time to get the hell out. Oh, don't forget to whine about close range cruisers either. They can kill you much faster and still be unhittable. Without even being tech2. Remember, the deciding factor in this game is usually numbers, who has them, and who doesn't. Get friends, fly with them, don't move your BS solo. Occassus Republica, PoE
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.15 09:57:00 - [51] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 15/07/2006 09:57:32 The guys got a point. Its unrealistic to not have anti-frigate batteries. Any real navy that made a capital ship (No not EvE capital ships) and didnt put anti-small ship batteries on wouldnt be a navy for long. Of course most small ships are capable of delivering much more serious damage to a capital ship then the EvE small ships do now (think torpedo boats, can sink a carrier with one good hit). So if we got anti-frig batteries, we should also get the ability for frigates to one shot battleships with a lucky hit
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.07.15 10:02:00 - [52] The anti-frig battery of a BS is the friendly destoyer orbiting it, or the AF flying with it. You know, thats why these escort ships were introduced in the first place. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2006.07.15 10:21:00 - [53] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 15/07/2006 10:21:36 Formal Statement made by CCP: "The Battleship is not, and should not be, a solo pwn mobile" Dig up the link yourself.
Mortuus Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:01:00 - [54] Edited by: Mortuus on 15/07/2006 11:02:44 Edited by: Mortuus on 15/07/2006 11:01:27 Ok, lets try something.... Small anti-ship weapons, ok, 5" guns. Rougly the size of what a Destroyer might mount...say the equivalent to a small gun? Could a WW2 era BS have crammed on more large guns if it ditched its anti-small ship weapons and AA along with the ammo for them, probably. It would have a better chance of winning a straight slugfest with another large vessel. But then it would be really weak caught by small ships and planes, perhaps even destroyed by them as its been caught unprepared... So instead of comparing a fully loaded BS in EvE to a real life BS, look at an EvE BS with 3/4 of its weapons as anti-BS with the remaining being anti-frigate as an equivalent to a RL BS. Then compare the standard EvE BS fitting, to a ship with only 16" naval guns. You'll have a much more realistic view. So, if you want to fit only for anti-BS combat, go ahead. But make sure you bring escorts or you will lose to the wolfpacks that wander space. Occassus Republica, PoE
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Mortuus Edited by: Mortuus on 15/07/2006 11:02:44 Edited by: Mortuus on 15/07/2006 11:01:27 Ok, lets try something.... Small anti-ship weapons, ok, 5" guns. Rougly the size of what a Destroyer might mount...say the equivalent to a small gun? Could a WW2 era BS have crammed on more large guns if it ditched its anti-small ship weapons and AA along with the ammo for them, probably. It would have a better chance of winning a straight slugfest with another large vessel. But then it would be really weak caught by small ships and planes, perhaps even destroyed by them as its been caught unprepared... So instead of comparing a fully loaded BS in EvE to a real life BS, look at an EvE BS with 3/4 of its weapons as anti-BS with the remaining being anti-frigate as an equivalent to a RL BS. Then compare the standard EvE BS fitting, to a ship with only 16" naval guns. You'll have a much more realistic view. So, if you want to fit only for anti-BS combat, go ahead. But make sure you bring escorts or you will lose to the wolfpacks that wander space. Yeah but we're talking about taking 1 18 inch turret off the Yamato and replacing it with a single .30.
Belinda HwaFang Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.15 15:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Mogrin What the bloody hell would be the point of other ships if a battleship could have the equivelent of 32 small turrets or 16 medium turrets? Don't bother answering that noob, it is whats known as a hypothetical question! Actually it's called a rhetorical question. -- Belinda HwaFang [IEND] Infinity's End
Mogrin	Posted - 2006.07.15 15:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Belinda HwaFang Originally by: Mogrin What the bloody hell would be the point of other ships if a battleship could have the equivelent of 32 small turrets or 16 medium turrets? Don't bother answering that noob, it is whats known as a hypothetical question! Actually it's called a rhetorical question.
Leon 026 Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.16 02:21:00 - [58] You know.... maybe if some of these people put light drones in their dronebay instead of using heavy drones on interceptors, they'd kill more frigs and whine less about getting killed by 1 or 2 frigates.... ------------------------------- [ 2006.06.22 04:28:01 ] Leon 026 > My Crow dances like she's on ecstasy
Shigsy mya	Posted - 2006.07.16 02:31:00 - [59] answer = uberleet minigun of doom 4 small weapons slapped into 1 :) uberrrrrrr small gun

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