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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
107
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Posted - 2014.08.06 16:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, I want to make it clear that I do not represent all of Hard Knocks or in portion I do intact represent because at the very core you have much of HK split on this issue. In my opinion this is a direct attack on larger wormhole based entities. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I fought for a very long time to shrink HK and get us under 200 pilots.
I think the thing to keep in mind when doing these 6 week patches is that you need to test them more than 2 weeks. This is a fairly massive change to the way wormholes currently function and even with all the negative feedback in just the last few days, it seems you haven't given much of a care and decided to go ahead anyways. In fact, if you took this out of the patch and moved forward without just the remaining changes I have no doubt that wormholers would praise this as one of the better patches for us since the original induction, largely because the remaining patches are manageable tweaks as opposed to sweeping changes to the fundamentals of wormholes space.
Let's be honest here, we all know there are people who have holes for the sole purpose of making boatloads of ISK. The reality to that is those pilots have spent billions in additional pilots and ships and are taking a massive 5 minute risk in order to reap their rewards with no local and people like Hard Knocks trying to find them and kill them. Comparatively the risk is almost non-existent for an IS Boxer running incursions or any plain old ratting carrier who is semi paying attention. This patch could easily double, possibly even triple the risk they take for no additional reward. Consequently it may no longer be reasonable risk for them to continue with the status quo thus providing less content to entities who primarily hunt as an occupation such as Hard Knocks and others.
That being said, many of these wormholes are owned and run by members of larger entities because the ISK making opportunities in larger corps are scarce as you are forced to share profits with increasingly more mouths on less substance. I am not saying they shouldn't have any risk, but spawning capitals 20k off a wormhole is not the way to do it. Mostly because it makes rolling wormholes harder, and near impossible for smaller entities but also limits our ability to engage k-space entities without knowing those capitals will die.
This change must be removed in my opinion. Find me another way to increase risk, and I'll gladly swap it for the ability to not spawn 20km off a wormhole in a 7B dread. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
108
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Posted - 2014.08.06 16:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me
You mean like being able to control nullsec systems by preventing cynos and bubbling gates out to 100km? |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
112
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
The problem with your statement is the limit in which we can bring capitals to the fight. In my time in wh space which is over two years now I've seen everything from large nullsec capital escalations to super escalations on wormholes where the traditional bring more than they have theory of nullsec space provides an almost instant victory for nullsec everytime.
Even the few corporations who have and could field super fleets aren't going to counter nullsec supers which means if our caps now spawn 20 km+ off a wormhole in null they are already dead and that's a guarantee. If you want to remove my capital mass from affecting wormholes I will concede to landing off hole but until that day this is probably the dumbest argument I've seen and a clear reason why nullsec is the way it is... |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
112
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Posted - 2014.08.06 20:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adrea Bloom wrote:the ccp just want to close pvp on wh... the cap ships got large signature so them need to out close to hole... smaller ships longer distans it simple fiziks. mo fiziks, mo problems.
That's what I say. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
113
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Posted - 2014.08.06 20:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both? On the other hand people in the lowends have to roll 2/3 of the same mass but with battleships while a c5 crew can do it with pretty much 3 pilots. So yes, many highendinhabitants are a bit whiny and should be forced to roll C1s for a week.
You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
113
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Witchway wrote:You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space. Nope, noone is forcing me, but also noone is forcing you into a highend. Let-¦s be honest the difference is capwarfare and larger groups. Which is possible because of the way higher (and arguably less risky but more expensive) income and needed because soloing caps is kinda hard. But you can-¦t tell me that atm it is harder to roll with capitals than without. You still get your highsecs/lowsecs/lowends connecting. If it is too risky to use a cap you can still use BS. Ofc then it will take 15 minutes instead of 2 and the risk of getting detected is higher. The question is a) are you entiteled to easier rolling because you risk more isk and b) if this change, whilest it might be "right" it might be too bad for the overall health of highend wormholespace. And yes, I have had my share of c5 living, I just didn-¦t like it so much because lowends have more opportunites for solo-/smallestscale gameplay than highends if the rest of your corp isn-¦t logged in with you.
It's not harder to roll C5s but there is way more inherent risk with putting 2-3B on the field rather than 150mil |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
118
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Posted - 2014.08.07 13:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Verse Askold wrote:this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...
imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?
I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there!
You're also in a 100 man corp, no one has ever heard of.... |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
118
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Posted - 2014.08.07 13:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Orange Aideron wrote:In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).
yes, it would suck for those making boatloads of money. how about those times you drop capitals out a nullsec/lowsec to engage a larger fleet. now those caps are a significant distance from the return in a sector of space where not just one, but several capitals can be brought in as a counter at whatever range the opponents would like. if you take capitals into k-space after this change, you might as well just consider them lost because the chances of you not getting a cyno lit with a carrier 20km off the hole is about the same as Hard Knocks not pointing a carrier within ten jumps from any of our exits.
And that's honestly the biggest issue I have with this change, it doesn't just affect the bears. it doesn't just affect the pvp rage rollers, it affects everyone and in almost all situations. all of this brought about with less than 2 weeks of public testing? to that regard how does one test this in the first place, all our homes are removed every time they copy the servers, how can they possibly expect a solid test of this new feature when we can't even test it proper. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
121
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Posted - 2014.08.08 20:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing. Or how about every two hours or so the gates switch where they send you? Maybe you go to jita, maybe you go to amamake... roll the dice! |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
122
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Posted - 2014.08.09 15:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:if CCP wanted in WH died a lot of capitals, they would not shut off API. Rei Moon wrote:MaxDEL wrote:And most importantly - return the Statistics API! I was starting to like your posts here, then you come with this XP You just do not like meat of CarryBears ))) Because watching API logs and setting login traps is soooooooo manly. :beefcake: |
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Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
125
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Posted - 2014.08.09 23:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Legion40k wrote:So erm, I'm supposed to tell corpies that: - rolling is now going to take longer (which is dull. PLS GIVE MORE DULL) - if we need to ditch a chain full of groups we can't handle, it ain't happening so we might as well all log off or risk getting our rolling ships ganked (why would we ever risk that?) I thought the 'content' part of w-space was finding something to do via rolling. Nerf content much? I don't care how much coding went into this feature, it's wasted effort so scrap it.
on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys...
bud-dum-tis....
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Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
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Posted - 2014.08.10 06:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Legion40k wrote:Witchway wrote:on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys... bud-dum-tis.... so true xD
HOORAY! |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
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Posted - 2014.08.10 20:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them. You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well. I understand risk-reward just fine thanks, and just because i'm interested in w-space incomes doesn't mean I'm a bear. We all have to make our isk to buy our PvP ships and our towers and the fuel and all the rest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled forum trolling. Oh so you're one of those that expects complete safety when farming to buy your PvP ships, and then you use them to go gank others isk farming in much less protected areas. Even worse then a bear. Guess you want complete safety roaming in your pvp ships too?
I can't tell you how many times I've been reported in wh region intel channels, HK can barely go anywhere without getting reported and then all the bears POS up, I mean sometimes I don't even get into scanning because I was reported 5 jumps away from a target I didn't know existed.
Of course it's also customary and honorable to speak in local and announce your presence so other wh pilots have a chance to save themselves. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
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Posted - 2014.08.10 21:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Simsung Padecain wrote: It may not be such a big deal in PvP situations, but it doesn't solve the problem presented in 700+ posts in this, and 700+ posts in the other thread.
It is a big deal in pvp situations, if this gets added, offensive use of caps will be no more(unless in evictions). speak for yourself heathen. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
129
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Posted - 2014.08.11 01:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:I mean Hard Knocks of all groups should LOVE this change as they are one of the biggest wormhole PVP groups in the game.
One of the problems you don't seem to understand is that when you are Hard Knocks, a lone HK buzzard on a hole is enough to make people roll their static. In fact we quite often go balls deeps with probes already, we eve did some practice runs the other night when someone tried to roll on us.
Hell, we've stalked and ganked Hydra twice in the last few weeks, and yet they rolled into our home today and immediately logged. We won't see them for the next few days, nothing different for us as far as catching people goes.
the reality is that for us, this will not really do anything for us or against us. if they would have rolled before they will just log, and those who just feel safe will soon realize one of us has just been sitting there for an hour or so and now a bubble is up.
as far as going balls deep goes, we often throw three dreads and call it good. in that case landing at range via dreads for us isn't really that big of a deal since they will still be close enough to engage.
I see this affecting large entities in the following ways.
1. large entities are going to be more hesitant to drop capitals out into a fight taking place on the k-space wh due to cynos and then dead. 2. carriers will become defensive purposes only, carriers are still limited by their rep range and a bad jump in could place them disadvantageously far from their fleet. 3. rage rolling will cease to be a thing. it's a matter of math vs boredom. if it takes 30-120 seconds longer per hole roll that all adds up when comparing it to value for our time. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
129
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Posted - 2014.08.11 01:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:add some content, that might liven things up in WH space.
I am personally in large favor of the random sleeper spawns in wh grids. have sleepers attack during fights, attack poses make them like crazy ass raiders rather than site based content. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
132
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Posted - 2014.08.13 02:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. Yeah I agree, activity levels in C5/6 space are too damn high!!! I too would like to move into C7 space. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
133
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Posted - 2014.08.14 19:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Do you think CCP needs to give us the same level of control that the current rage rolling process allows? e.g. player made wormhole generators? The reality is they created a hard and defined system based on nothing but math when it comes to a wormholes size, jump mass and time of life with a reasonable assumption to be in range of the hole on the jump through for the last few years.
Now all we are doing is taking one of those values and arbitrarily modifYing the value to produce vastly different results for very minimal change. In my opinion if you are going to just start messing with numbers you might as well just make it all random and call it a day.
Will your fleet get trapped? Not as it stands if you know what you're doing but turn up the rng on the mass point of wormholes and let's see the poo start flinging.
Also, this game is a sandbox. You can't make a system based on hard values and expect people not to figure it out. Sandbox are about adapting and learnjng, if they didn't want us to figure out a way to make our own wormhole generators they should have designed it more betterer. |
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