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DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.07.18 02:30:00 -
[181]
Edited by: DarK on 18/07/2006 02:31:04
Move ECM back to highslots and bring back the old system.
Keep the 20 second activation time.
Give ECM ships more highslots.
Make ECM use ALOT more cap.
Give rook, falcon and blackbird an activation time reduction bonus aswell as a bigger cap use reduction.
Give scorpion an activation time reduction but no cap reduction.
I don't think non-EW ships should be using EW, simple as that. I also think that EW should either work or not work, instead of maybe work most of the time.
Allowing an EW ship to tank may make it appear a bit overpowered.
However, with the cycle time reduction on the scorp but without the cap use bonus for ECM it will suck a fair bit of cap.
You can still tank while using the ECM, but if you have a few opponents firing at you, your tank wont last forever like it might when not using ECM.
So when not using ECM you can tank like a beast and do no damage, or you can use ECM and disable a few ships while tankign moderatly.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.18 03:54:00 -
[182]
If ECM stays established as the most powerful EW in the game all other races need EW ships as well though if they are the only ones that can use it.
It's simply not right that any other races battleships can be substituted for something else except for the scorpion. This game is already heavily skewed in favour of Caldari, and the fact that you can field a fleet without Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar ships and still be successful, but never without Caldari is a big part of it.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 06:40:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 18/07/2006 06:41:21
It would help the discussion much, if ppl suggesting ANYTHING about ECM/ECCM would first think about a few points:
1. ECM role in 1vs1. This should count in all possible scenarios:
- ECM ship vs nonECM ship ECM ship using ECM, nonECM with ECCM
- nonECM ship vs nonECM ship both using ECM
- nonECM ship vs nonECM ship one using ECM the other ECCM
- nonECM ship vs nonECM ship both using ECCM
2. ECM role in small gang battles:
- gang1 with ECM ship vs gang2 withou ECM ship some/all ships using ECCM
- gang1 with ECM vs gang2 with ECM (no ECM spec ship)
- gang1 with ECM vs gang2 with ECCM (no ECM spec ship)
- both gangs with ECCM only
3. Fleet battles. Now this is a discussion discarding the fact that snipers now outrange ECM. So mix of ECM/ECCM ships and ships without either.
4. PvE. Right now ECM works on NPC rats and it can be used to great benefit in some situations. Do not base your oppinion only on PvP.
5. Cross-class ECM use:
- should a frigate be able to jam a BS ? If yes what conditions ? Same for other combinations.
- is ECCM equaly usable by all classes of ships (or should be) ?
- is ECM equaly usable by all classes of ships (or should be) ?
6. Possibel abuses of ECM or ECCM with the proposed idea.
7. Viability of specialised ships like Scorpion or Rook in the proposed system.
I think this would cut down on many posts, just like the OP here. There were also other modules banned from the tournament, not only ECM. With limited rules, tactics and setups change to utilise a ship to best potential within the given constraints.
There were some interesting ideas in this thread so far, however none of them covers all the above points. Almost ALL of them deal ONLY with 1on1 PvP, some include small gang into consideration.
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
Omatje
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.18 07:13:00 -
[184]
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 17/07/2006 14:05:39
Originally by: Omatje
Then sensor strength formule worked fine before the change of the system.
The only thing that had to be added was the max range of jammers then ECM would have been perfectly fine.
I think there are reasons behind the change in ECM. I am guessing
1. Reducing blobs.
2. Faster codes.
If they arent, I wonder why CCP changed the implementation?
They changed the implementation because people where unhappy about 249k jamming scorps, and some wanted some more skills to train to provide a more specialised role.
I don't see why ECM should or would be able to reduce blobs.
I don't see how making formula's more complicated would allow for faster codes (but then again, i know nothing about coding).
Sig removed, please keep it below 24000 bytes etc.. - Xorus
hmm...
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:03:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 17/07/2006 22:44:23
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
Point 1:
Unlike traditional primary defensive systems [...]
Your finger got quite close to the crux of the problem there. ECM is in essence a defensive system designed to protect the user from being ill affected by enemy electronics.
But in EVE it is an OFFENSIVE system disabling all systems of one opponent.
Reversing that would be the perfect fix imho.
I can kind of see your point: since ECM is directed onto the enemy it can be considered offensive. I, however, still consider ECM defensive. It is defensive because a) it protects you from damage and other harmful effects; it is not offensive because b) it dose not directly deal damage or directly increase the amount of damage inflected.
In any case, whether one wants to call ECM offense or defensive is semantics, and I really like your idea. I still lean toward the lock breaking but not jamming approach because your idea does not address the issues faced in 1on1 combat. Yes, yes, I know Eve is more about gang and fleet war than 1on1, but there is 1on1 and many people like 1on1 combat. As such a fix to ECM or any other imbalance needs to consider and address as many scenarios as possible.
I would not mind ECM just breaking locks, as long as it breaks the locks that are on you (like a long range ECM burst) rather than breaking all the locks on anyone that one enemy has, though even that would be an improvement over the current situation.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:09:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/07/2006 11:09:07
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I would not mind ECM just breaking locks, as long as it breaks the locks that are on you (like a long range ECM burst) rather than breaking all the locks on anyone that one enemy has, though even that would be an improvement over the current situation.
Agreed - All it takes is a NOS recon ship to ecm bust the entire enemy gang with half a dozen ECM burst fitted, and sustain it all on his NOS's
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Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:17:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/07/2006 11:19:56
Originally by: Omatje
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 17/07/2006 14:05:39
Originally by: Omatje
Then sensor strength formule worked fine before the change of the system.
The only thing that had to be added was the max range of jammers then ECM would have been perfectly fine.
I think there are reasons behind the change in ECM. I am guessing
1. Reducing blobs.
2. Faster codes.
If they arent, I wonder why CCP changed the implementation?
They changed the implementation because people where unhappy about 249k jamming scorps, and some wanted some more skills to train to provide a more specialised role.
I don't see why ECM should or would be able to reduce blobs.
I don't see how making formula's more complicated would allow for faster codes (but then again, i know nothing about coding).
I might be wrong about reducing blob but AFAIK the old implementation requires enough points stack on a ship before it can be perma-jammed. Thinking about it, more points mean need more people to stack if there arent anough specialised mid-slot ships in gang. Though it does help in preventing a majority of frigates/cruisers to easily jam larger ship classes.
The current dissatisfaction with jammers is smaller ships shouldnt easily jam larger ships. The points divide radar strength is a good idea on paper but many feels the randomness is borked i.e. frigate if very lucky can jam a BS up to a few times in a row and it takes ages to re-lock it.
My comment about the code might also be borked because I dont know the code and I am guessing them in my head. Old method, I guess machine has to keep track of points and test whether jam or not jam. Current method just test whether jam or not jam on a dice roll. My views in that reply were merely guesses.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:26:00 -
[188]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/07/2006 11:30:49
Originally by: Noriath
If ECM stays established as the most powerful EW in the game all other races need EW ships as well though if they are the only ones that can use it.
It's simply not right that any other races battleships can be substituted for something else except for the scorpion. This game is already heavily skewed in favour of Caldari, and the fact that you can field a fleet without Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar ships and still be successful, but never without Caldari is a big part of it.
I'd rather maintain the games unique approach to making every race different.
You can't find a multiplayer game with this level of balance but at the same time, this level of variation.
The day they start ruining the storyline by turning every race into the same thing is the day Eve starts to die.
Caldari are by far the least damaging race, thats why they have the most powerful Ewar system, it should stay that way and ECM should be restricted to ECM ships only or make it much much weaker on none ECM ships. Preferably the latter.
It'll be a better game.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:29:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/07/2006 11:29:27
Originally by: Noriath
If ECM stays established as the most powerful EW in the game all other races need EW ships as well though if they are the only ones that can use it.
It's simply not right that any other races battleships can be substituted for something else except for the scorpion. This game is already heavily skewed in favour of Caldari, and the fact that you can field a fleet without Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar ships and still be successful, but never without Caldari is a big part of it.
Not really. Current ECM problems are not caused by Caldari ships. They are caused by non-Caldari armour tankers who have too many spare mid-slots. A very simple fix. Dont give armour tankers more than 3-4 mid-slots and reassign those slots to low.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Lamb Chop
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:33:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 15/07/2006 21:59:50
Well before i start, i want to say that i know that alliance tournament pvp is not representative for normal pvp. >_>
But, do us all a favour and remove ecm from tranquility, seriously, battles would be a lot more fun.
Just Imagine those guys in the tournament slugging it out with half of them jammed all the time. Fun to watch? probably not
Is it fun under normal pvp circumstances on tranquility? no, not really
My conclusion? remove the crap, like you did for the tournament 
edit for spelling
You had no problem with it when i was on your side locking down half the enemy fleet?
and what happens to 2 months of training some of us put in it?
Do you want the Nos removed as well? or drones?
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:33:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/07/2006 11:29:27
Originally by: Noriath
If ECM stays established as the most powerful EW in the game all other races need EW ships as well though if they are the only ones that can use it.
It's simply not right that any other races battleships can be substituted for something else except for the scorpion. This game is already heavily skewed in favour of Caldari, and the fact that you can field a fleet without Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar ships and still be successful, but never without Caldari is a big part of it.
Not really. Current ECM problems are not caused by Caldari ships. They are caused by non-Caldari armour tankers who have too many spare mid-slots. A very simple fix. Dont give armour tankers more than 3-4 mid-slots and reassign those slots to low.
Yeah but a Domi with 2/3 multis is still a stupidly powerful Domi.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:34:00 -
[192]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/07/2006 11:29:27
Originally by: Noriath
If ECM stays established as the most powerful EW in the game all other races need EW ships as well though if they are the only ones that can use it.
It's simply not right that any other races battleships can be substituted for something else except for the scorpion. This game is already heavily skewed in favour of Caldari, and the fact that you can field a fleet without Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar ships and still be successful, but never without Caldari is a big part of it.
Not really. Current ECM problems are not caused by Caldari ships. They are caused by non-Caldari armour tankers who have too many spare mid-slots. A very simple fix. Dont give armour tankers more than 3-4 mid-slots and reassign those slots to low.
Yeah but a Domi with 2/3 multis is still a stupidly powerful Domi.
Well at least the forums can have a change of scenary. Nerf Domi threads than usual nerf Raven threads. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Admiral Goberius
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Posted - 2006.07.18 11:39:00 -
[193]
Signed - ECM for teh loose
tired of having to fill me midslots with multispectrals
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CareBear Talker
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Posted - 2006.07.18 12:03:00 -
[194]
OMG OMG
Look at all those PVP'ers that dont like getting own'd by other players.
I am guessing you dont fit WCS as well and all your other mods are for Damage/tracking/locking
oh dear look that 1 week old player has ECM'd me and got away OMG OMG Please GOD CCP PLEASE I want to PWN that 1 week old player pls pls pls kill EW,,,,
Do'h
It's ingame so Deal with it you wimps
change your tactics
you choose your setup you take your chances
in of words you made your bed now sleep in it
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.18 12:16:00 -
[195]
Nerf trolls too please!
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Omatje
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.18 12:54:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Omatje on 18/07/2006 12:55:39
Originally by: CareBear Talker
OMG OMG
Look at all those PVP'ers that dont like getting own'd by other players.
I am guessing you dont fit WCS as well and all your other mods are for Damage/tracking/locking
oh dear look that 1 week old player has ECM'd me and got away OMG OMG Please GOD CCP PLEASE I want to PWN that 1 week old player pls pls pls kill EW,,,,
Do'h
It's ingame so Deal with it you wimps
change your tactics
you choose your setup you take your chances
in of words you made your bed now sleep in it
- It was PUT into the game because changes where needed back then.
- We have all changed our tactics and are sick of it since most ships are designed for other roles, but we need to divert from that because almost every ship must fit ECM modules or be gimped.
Sig removed, please keep it below 24000 bytes etc.. - Xorus
hmm...
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.18 12:56:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
But, do us all a favour and remove ecm from tranquility, seriously, battles would be a lot more fun.
Because gank gameplay is the one, only snd true path? Sigh.
The problem with ECM is it stops you shooting at ANYONE. Hence...partial jamming. You'll FAR more likely be able to shoot at someone. Just...perhaps not the primary. (And it dosn't break lock, just prevent module activation/manual drone agro, and works on say a 10-15 second cycle...)
Hoshi, how many EW ships they have along is one of the key factors in if you can engage or not. Again, it's an "can they jam us all and laugh" factor. (That I want to nerf, by altering to partial..)
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PriceCheckMax
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Posted - 2006.07.18 13:20:00 -
[198]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Yeah but a Domi with 2/3 multis is still a stupidly powerful Domi.
What good is a dominix without ecm? ... Just gets owned, bad.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.18 13:23:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The problem with ECM is it stops you shooting at ANYONE. Hence...partial jamming. You'll FAR more likely be able to shoot at someone. Just...perhaps not the primary. (And it dosn't break lock, just prevent module activation/manual drone agro, and works on say a 10-15 second cycle...)
Agreed.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 13:27:00 -
[200]
Originally by: PriceCheckMax
Originally by: welsh wizard
Yeah but a Domi with 2/3 multis is still a stupidly powerful Domi.
What good is a dominix without ecm? ... Just gets owned, bad.
No wonder people get tired of pvp in this game. At least in other games where one guy can keep the other guy stunned, it doesnt last the entire fight. 
It doesnt have to be this way with Eve, but currently, its just jam or be jammed.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.18 13:45:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The problem with ECM is it stops you shooting at ANYONE. Hence...partial jamming. You'll FAR more likely be able to shoot at someone. Just...perhaps not the primary.
Wow, Maya and me share a view on something. That in itself shows how very broken ECM is :D
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.18 13:56:00 -
[202]
Originally by: PriceCheckMax
Originally by: welsh wizard
Yeah but a Domi with 2/3 multis is still a stupidly powerful Domi.
What good is a dominix without ecm? ... Just gets owned, bad.
No it doesn't. Its about team play. If you go up against a cap dependant ship like a raven with sheild tank you will utterly destroy them. You will have the upphand vs empire pirates that gank 0.4 gates in scorpions and ravens. You will have a great 0.0 logistics ship that can be a great advantage to any team.
Think outside the box instead of asking for 1 vs 1 superiority out of 1 ship that can be semi-exploitive to inbalanced game mechanics.
Team Minmatar |
Celeste Storm
Elite United Corp
Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2006.07.18 14:17:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Celeste Storm on 18/07/2006 14:17:53
Originally by: CareBear Talker
OMG OMG
Look at all those PVP'ers that dont like getting own'd by other players.
I am guessing you dont fit WCS as well and all your other mods are for Damage/tracking/locking
oh dear look that 1 week old player has ECM'd me and got away OMG OMG Please GOD CCP PLEASE I want to PWN that 1 week old player pls pls pls kill EW,,,,
Do'h
It's ingame so Deal with it you wimps
change your tactics
you choose your setup you take your chances
in of words you made your bed now sleep in it
w0rd!
Whois complaining here? A miner? A mission runner? An engineer? Hell no, its our beloved friends: the prats, ganker whatever.
Guess what, they cannot gank as effective as before. sometimes they loose simply because they cannot fire their imba weapons. thats not fair CCP! I demand that if u dont fix ECM u should modify all rods and give them a 30% ECM chance against those ebil miners!!!ONEELEVEN
Rods of all regions unite!!
P.S.: Thanks to all who make all these whine threads. U guys really make my day! 
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Devious 21
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Posted - 2006.07.18 14:51:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Celeste Storm
Edited by: Celeste Storm on 18/07/2006 14:17:53
Originally by: CareBear Talker
OMG OMG
Look at all those PVP'ers that dont like getting own'd by other players.
I am guessing you dont fit WCS as well and all your other mods are for Damage/tracking/locking
oh dear look that 1 week old player has ECM'd me and got away OMG OMG Please GOD CCP PLEASE I want to PWN that 1 week old player pls pls pls kill EW,,,,
Do'h
It's ingame so Deal with it you wimps
change your tactics
you choose your setup you take your chances
in of words you made your bed now sleep in it
w0rd!
Whois complaining here? A miner? A mission runner? An engineer? Hell no, its our beloved friends: the prats, ganker whatever.
Guess what, they cannot gank as effective as before. sometimes they loose simply because they cannot fire their imba weapons. thats not fair CCP! I demand that if u dont fix ECM u should modify all rods and give them a 30% ECM chance against those ebil miners!!!ONEELEVEN
Rods of all regions unite!!
P.S.: Thanks to all who make all these whine threads. U guys really make my day!
And thanks to people like both of you - People that skip to the last page and post some irrelevant bull**** instead of reading what anyone has to say. Effectively whining about whining. Your the opposite of the people that just can't handle ecm in the game and want it gone. The people who can't understand how it could possibly be flawed and thinks anyone who talks about fixing it must be an noob/idiot and can't figure out how to counter it. Maybe some of us understand ECM fully and see the positive and negatives of the current system and understand it's limitations. Thank you for adding something constructive to this discussion.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.18 14:56:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Celeste Storm
Edited by: Celeste Storm on 18/07/2006 14:17:53
Originally by: CareBear Talker
OMG OMG
Look at all those PVP'ers that dont like getting own'd by other players.
I am guessing you dont fit WCS as well and all your other mods are for Damage/tracking/locking
oh dear look that 1 week old player has ECM'd me and got away OMG OMG Please GOD CCP PLEASE I want to PWN that 1 week old player pls pls pls kill EW,,,,
Do'h
It's ingame so Deal with it you wimps
change your tactics
you choose your setup you take your chances
in of words you made your bed now sleep in it
w0rd!
Whois complaining here? A miner? A mission runner? An engineer? Hell no, its our beloved friends: the prats, ganker whatever.
Guess what, they cannot gank as effective as before. sometimes they loose simply because they cannot fire their imba weapons. thats not fair CCP! I demand that if u dont fix ECM u should modify all rods and give them a 30% ECM chance against those ebil miners!!!ONEELEVEN
Rods of all regions unite!!
P.S.: Thanks to all who make all these whine threads. U guys really make my day!
ECM has nothing to do with making ganking easier. More gankings occur in 0.4 - 0.1 space and those people fit to out range sentries and pop the low hp ships or they tank the sentries in ravens, scorpions, and ferox while having WCS to make sure if they get equal combat they can leave.
So 111one!eleven that right into your skull. ECM is more prevalent in empire wars or 0.0 combat. It is there where PvP is at its truest, most violent form and there where it is truely broken. 111one!eleven indeed
Team Minmatar |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.18 15:35:00 -
[206]
I am pretty carebearish and want ECM in its current form gone most desperately. The only people I can envision actually liking the current system are those with no interest in PvP whatsoever, and those who only get their kick from winning, regardless of the means to that end.
Anyone with an honest interest in PvP should abhor the current ECM, and from reading the many complaints (they are not whines by a long shot as ECM is indeed a problem even recognized by CCP) that seems to be the case.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.18 15:51:00 -
[207]
Originally by: welsh wizard
I'd rather maintain the games unique approach to making every race different.
Yea, the games unique approach to making every race different: 3 races get guns, crappy EW and armor tank, one race gets missiles, shieldtank and uber EW. Roughly 60% of all the character in the game are that last race. Oh, and their tier 3 battleships gets guns as well.
Racial balance in eve is completly off, Caldari get half the weaponry in the game all to themselves with all the other races use pretty much variations of the same stuff...
If you want ECM to be extremly powerful and override all other EW in terms of usefullness then you have to allow other races to use it as well.
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.07.18 17:55:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Noriath
Originally by: welsh wizard
I'd rather maintain the games unique approach to making every race different.
Yea, the games unique approach to making every race different: 3 races get guns, crappy EW and armor tank, one race gets missiles, shieldtank and uber EW. Roughly 60% of all the character in the game are that last race. Oh, and their tier 3 battleships gets guns as well.
Racial balance in eve is completly off, Caldari get half the weaponry in the game all to themselves with all the other races use pretty much variations of the same stuff...
If you want ECM to be extremly powerful and override all other EW in terms of usefullness then you have to allow other races to use it as well.
The grass is always greener isn't it Noriath?
You're talking rubbish.
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.18 18:41:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Noriath
Originally by: welsh wizard
I'd rather maintain the games unique approach to making every race different.
Yea, the games unique approach to making every race different: 3 races get guns, crappy EW and armor tank, one race gets missiles, shieldtank and uber EW. Roughly 60% of all the character in the game are that last race. Oh, and their tier 3 battleships gets guns as well.
Racial balance in eve is completly off, Caldari get half the weaponry in the game all to themselves with all the other races use pretty much variations of the same stuff...
If you want ECM to be extremly powerful and override all other EW in terms of usefullness then you have to allow other races to use it as well.
What in EVE DO you actually like if you are still playing, if basically everything atm is unbalanced and crap?
You gotta be a very sad panda.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.18 19:30:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Noriath on 18/07/2006 19:31:08
Hey, facts are facts, you cannot successfully field a fleet that doesn't have any Caldari ships in it due to ECM, and in racial fleets Caldari would always win, also because of ECM.
With tier 3 ships coming out and Caldari getting a gunship there is no role Caldari can't fill better or just as good then everyone else, so either ECM needs a major nerf to be in line with the other weaker forms of EW or all other races need ECM capability as well.
And right now Caldari are overpowered. If half the characters in the game are Caldari and even more then half can fly Caldari ships there has to be something about them that makes them more desirable then everything else.
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