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Tournament, ECM and a conclusion

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Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 21:59:00 - [1] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 15/07/2006 21:59:50 Well before i start, i want to say that i know that alliance tournament pvp is not representative for normal pvp. >_> But, do us all a favour and remove ecm from tranquility, seriously, battles would be a lot more fun. Just Imagine those guys in the tournament slugging it out with half of them jammed all the time. Fun to watch? probably not Is it fun under normal pvp circumstances on tranquility? no, not really My conclusion? remove the crap, like you did for the tournament edit for spelling Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
HippoKing Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:06:00 - [2] I'd rather have it balanced in some way, but yeah, PvP is more fun without it.
Leumas Ebmocnud	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:07:00 - [3] /triple signed
Dixon	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:08:00 - [4] I have actually spent alot of skillpoints to specialize in ECM. But I still think it would be great in terms of gameplay to rid this game of that annoying combat style. So, yeah I might have a few wasted skillpoints if they take it out but I actually agree with you, after seeing that tournament and actually having some pvp go my way shortly after due to ECM I think it's overpowered and it really needs to go.
Yarek Balear Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:10:00 - [5] I would tend to agree to remove it, or, as someone in my corp suggested - just make special ECM only ships - a bit like covert ops are... Maybe most ships could use it to about 5% possible effect or something but with ECM specialised ships (with no defensive capability) having the normal effect.
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:10:00 - [6] No thanks. PVP on TQ on non consentual. I like my ECM, I like my Dampeners, I like my Tracking disruptor. It's what make every little fight a bit more interesting and not just "This is a bigger gang and it will own my small gang". Tournament is very boring to watch as it is, the thing that is fun to watch in it, is the tactics used to maintain the key ships (if any) alive to really dominate another. EW has a part in eve, it's there to stay. It might get changed so it isn't a requirement for every fight to win. Where it doesn't even matter if you're more skilled than another and you die simply because you didn't fit jammer.
Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:12:00 - [7] yeah i am realistic and i know they wont remove it, but i can dream see it as the written equivalent of me standing beside a dev and screaming: DUDE I THINK ECM SUCKS BIGTIME! YOU REALLY SHOULD CHANGE HOW THAT CRAP WORKS! MY MONKEY IS GETTING REALLY IRRITATED WHEN I LET HIM PLAY EVERY TIME I GET JAMMED, OH AND BY THE WAY HE PLAYS MORE THAN ME NOW Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.07.15 22:35:00 - [8] I thought just the same when watching that tournament. And bigger gang pnwing smaller gang is actually emphasized by ECM because more ships = more ECM to put on fewer enemies, and more ECM targets for fewer enemy ECM modules, so that is really not that good an excuse to keep it. Alas, while I would not mind a total removal, there are a bunch of good suggestions on how to fix it in the ECM sticky (among a bunch of not so good ones), and I am sure the devs will make something of it. SoonÖ. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tyranical Teabagger	Posted - 2006.07.15 23:12:00 - [9] agreed. mind you I like Ewar, but ecm is way over powered. Tracking disruptors and the like are fine as they are, but the damn ecm almost seems like an I win button in 90% of the situations. Just make it so ecm needs a dedicated ship to make it really effective and I'd be happy.
Benglada Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.07.15 23:40:00 - [10] IMO make ecm useless at below 15km --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..

Commander Thrawn Fluffy rabbit killer's inc	Posted - 2006.07.15 23:42:00 - [11] i agreed make it so that only certain ship can use it. i find traking disruptor and dampners are fine tbh. the jammers are really the issue as you can't so anything when jammed. maybe if a jammer jammed 50% of you active devices or something like that rather then gimping your hole ship it wouldn't be so bad disruptor reduce your range, which just mean you have to come in closer to hit, but jammers = your dead
Nafri Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.15 23:49:00 - [12] well, you like having 2 ravens slugging it out for 15mins? been there, done it, was boring (I want dual armor repair ravens with 5 CR II back From Dusk till Dawn Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected])
Yodohime Kibagami Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.16 00:01:00 - [13] Well not sure about removing it entirely but making it different would be something to consider, like a passive mod that makes locking and targetting you harder, sig radious reduction or something perhaps, not something that actively stops one target from targetting anyone at all. At the moment its just plain silly to do small gang pvp without at least one ECM specced vessel in your group, because if the other guys have one, the lot of you are screwed.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.07.16 00:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski It's what make every little fight a bit more interesting and not just "This is a bigger gang and it will own my small gang". Yea, but currently it's "They have more EW and will pwn my less EW." instead, which isn't any better. Sensor Boosters need to be turned into two modules, one that increases range and reduces resolution, one that increses resolution and decreases range. (Or it could be one module that can be swiched between operating modes via right click, that would be very cool too - more strategic options) Then ECM should be changed not to just make locking impossible, but instead start another locking cycle on all the targets you previously had locked. That way if you are very far away and you are using the booster that slows down locking ECM is really good against you, but if you are very close and you are using the booster that speeds up locking ECM won't affect you as much. Once that change is done you could debate wether or not to split Sensor Dampers into two modules as well, one to increase lock time and one to reduce lock speed. All EW should be very strong at extreme range and not very useful at all at short range, that would balance the game a lot more overall with long range being so terribly overpowered right now. Tracking disruptors should also be changed to weapon guidance system disruptors that can also screw with missiles. After CCP has decided to make missiles into just another gun it's not really fair that they cannot be jammed by tracking disruptors. Alternatively missiles could be made to be acctual missiles again, and not just some perverted caldari cheese-gun.
Jethro Man	Posted - 2006.07.16 00:32:00 - [15] ECM is as crazy good as target painters are crazy bad.
FFGR Euphoria Released Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.07.16 01:45:00 - [16] ECM = part of EW modules There is a reason why they aren't allowed and that is because even one has the ability to turn a battle to your advantage. The Alliance tournament is more like testing on the test server than "real" pvp, as nobody is using scramblers, you can't warp out and in to get a better position ect _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Lisento Slaven Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.16 01:48:00 - [17] Quick question and not sure where to look for the answer atm: Was all EWAR banned from the tournament or just ECM modules? I didn't see/hear about tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners, etc. being used in the tournament? Also: I think jammers should be specialized. Get rid of multispectrals and get rid of the "chance" for a racial jammer to be able to jam other sensors. Why does a radar jammer have any chance to jam a gravimetric sensor? Would force people into the greater "risk vs reward" scenario. Kind of like if I take a tracking disruptor to a fight and end up only fighting missile spammers, I wasted my slot. So if a person takes a minmatar and gallente jammer and then run into Caldari or Amarr...they wasted their slot =P I don't like the ewar the spans across multiple spectrums. Specific = awesome! --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Kaylana Syi Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.16 05:42:00 - [18] The alliance tourney is a sneak peak on a clean environment for ships doing what they were meant to do. It would be representative of TQ combat if you can imagine that combat was taking place at a gate with well placed warp bubbles. However, ECM modules need to be revised soon. I just have no respect for them as a module and if you don't carry them yourselve if you can... well... you'd be foolish. Team Minmatar
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.16 07:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Andrea Jaruwalski on 16/07/2006 07:10:32 Originally by: Kaylana Syi The alliance tourney is a sneak peak on a clean environment for ships doing what they were meant to do. It would be representative of TQ combat if you can imagine that combat was taking place at a gate with well placed warp bubbles. Remove ECM, You have tracking disrupting *****, Sensor dampening, fighting at range in 99% of the fights. An abuse of Recon ships, a whine about defender missile sucking, a lack of ways to defend yourself against missile boat. A complete dream world. I know i do love to wonder about this, But.. Do you PVP at all, on a regular basis Kaylana? Do you want your PVP to become npcing-like? I don't. I want to have advantage over my ennemy, but that doesn't always mean to jam them to death. There's alot of ways to come out on top, there's alot of ways to make sure you don't die. I don't want eve to become one-sided, with never ending fights, the cookie cutter GANG TANKING god mode. The amazing tactics that require everyone in your gang to have the skill multitasking level 5! EVE is about teamwork sure, it's about alot of things, but remove what gives your little corp of 10-15 the ability to take one more than they can chew and at least put up a fight and you have alot of annoying people because they can't field a 30 man gang that just sweeps thru everyone that isn't a 30 man gang and up. EVE pvp is non consensual, Most combat in eve revolves around chokepoints, getting fights at gates. Players have the tools to either run away from those fights, and players have the tool to FORCE them to fight and die. ECM needs a fix, Alot lower strenght, while it might still revolve around luck, it would make all jamming specialised ships the same old primary target and the pain in the ass when 5-6 battleship are jammed. The upcoming fix won't change anything when it comes to PVP, there's always losers and they will always whine that they got killed and even tho it might seem unfair, it's really just a game.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.16 08:44:00 - [20] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/07/2006 08:45:37 I wish Tux would make this a priority. It really kills alot of the fun with pvp as it is now. Either make target jamming only possible on the EW ships or remove multispectrals from the game. Or boost counter modules with 100%. Again. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.07.16 09:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 16/07/2006 09:18:26 Yay thread 50000000 on the same topic! So, I am specialized in Scorps, Falcons, Rooks...how exactly would PvP be more fun for me if you remove ECM? Did you know a ECCM-Mods give you a 96% increased Sensor Strength...and it works, we tested it. I agree with Jim btw, nerf it on non-ECM-Ships.
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.16 09:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Did you know a ECCM-Mods give you a 96% increased Sensor Strength...and it works, we tested it. Still you gain nothing else by fitting them as opposed to tracking comps/enhancers and sensor boosters/sig amplifiers. ECM is just boring! For both sides. Or do you find it fun to kill a ship that can do absolutely nothing against you? Don't have to talk about the victim. For them it's even less fun. And no, no one would just completely remove ECM and leave a bunch of caldari ships without their main purpose. Changing it to something entirely different shouldn't worry you tho. Maybe it would be alot more fun to use it. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Keta Min Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2006.07.16 09:33:00 - [23] current form of ecm has to go. fact.
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.16 09:43:00 - [24] i think the biggest problem with ecm isnt that the dedicated ships are overwhelming, its that every ship fits one, and threy can use it very effective. to make it short: id suggest to make ecm, damps everything alot less effective in general, but give the dedicated ships a bigger bonus o that the ecm works like now on those ships. that would stop most of the ecm stupidness that is goin on atm. i also would like to have it less mindless, dunno how, cause flying scorps is kinda boring atm, and having to specialise in it a bit mroe would b nice too. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.07.16 09:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists i think the biggest problem with ecm isnt that the dedicated ships are overwhelming, its that every ship fits one, and threy can use it very effective. to make it short: id suggest to make ecm, damps everything alot less effective in general, but give the dedicated ships a bigger bonus o that the ecm works like now on those ships. that would stop most of the ecm stupidness that is goin on atm. i also would like to have it less mindless, dunno how, cause flying scorps is kinda boring atm, and having to specialise in it a bit mroe would b nice too. QFT.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.07.16 12:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists i think the biggest problem with ecm isnt that the dedicated ships are overwhelming, its that every ship fits one, and threy can use it very effective. to make it short: id suggest to make ecm, damps everything alot less effective in general, but give the dedicated ships a bigger bonus o that the ecm works like now on those ships. that would stop most of the ecm stupidness that is goin on atm. i also would like to have it less mindless, dunno how, cause flying scorps is kinda boring atm, and having to specialise in it a bit mroe would b nice too. Agree, I doubt anyone here is going to say BBs, scorps, falcons and rooks are overpowered ships. Yes they are good but overpowered? ECM domi/ishtar on the other hand... One of the problems is the main bonus pure ecm ships get is a range bonus, but with 90% of all fights taking place within unargumented multispec range this means that most of the time normal ships preform equaly good at jamming. How to solve this I don't know, maybe cut strenght in half and give all ecm ship a built in 100% strenght bonus. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.16 12:58:00 - [27] I was jammed 5 times in a row by domi yesterday... 96% eccm module fitted. Fun... well not really, apart from the fact that he died anyway. maybe jammers should get split into different sizes or something, because current situation is retarded... jamming maller, jamming typhoon, jamming ... ibis? --------- Boost caldari. It will reduce whining on forums due to the fact: 45% chars are mostly caldari specialized.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.16 13:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Edited by: Andrea Jaruwalski on 16/07/2006 07:10:32 Originally by: Kaylana Syi The alliance tourney is a sneak peak on a clean environment for ships doing what they were meant to do. It would be representative of TQ combat if you can imagine that combat was taking place at a gate with well placed warp bubbles. Remove ECM, You have tracking disrupting *****, Sensor dampening, fighting at range in 99% of the fights. An abuse of Recon ships, a whine about defender missile sucking, a lack of ways to defend yourself against missile boat. A complete dream world. I know i do love to wonder about this, But.. Do you PVP at all, on a regular basis Kaylana? Do you want your PVP to become npcing-like? How did you get me being pro-ECM removal from my post? I love ECM... well I did in 2003. I hate ECM now yet I use it because you'd be a fool to not use it in some way like drones or the actual midslots. If you want to know if I pvp... yes. Do I do it often as someone in a pure PvP corp? Not as much as I wish I could and when I do I fly t2 amarr ships nearly exclusively now on my amarr account. Pilgrim w. caldri jammer + tracking disrupters 4tw. Team Minmatar
Helmut 314 Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.16 13:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Nafri well, you like having 2 ravens slugging it out for 15mins? been there, done it, was boring (I want dual armor repair ravens with 5 CR II back I want dual MWD ruptures back.... ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Stamm Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.16 13:52:00 - [30] It's simple. Just change ECM. Have it prevent any module activation on a target, but don't have it break lock. It's breaking lock that annoys me. Also drop the strength of it, and compensate with the skill and the ship bonuses. I've posted this, other people have posted this, several times.... We just need to wait on Tuxford deciding what to do about ECM.



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