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Remove Medical Clones

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Sen Cate United System's Commonwealth 7	Posted - 2014.08.10 07:48:00 - [1] - Quote Please consider removing medical clones from game. You lose a shiny ship, a bunch of implants, you are going to fly halfway across the galaxy via picking up a new ship/implants to get back to where you were yet you have to remember to buy a new clone or risk losing a bunch of skill points. For high sp characters these costs are not insignificant. I feel that this medical clone micromanagement adds nothing to the game and if anything detracts from risky PvP behaviour, especially by high sp characters.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 746	Posted - 2014.08.10 08:57:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed. This is not a fun game mechanic. +1 Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 3701	Posted - 2014.08.10 08:58:00 - [3] - Quote which level 5 did you lose? =][=
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 24	Posted - 2014.08.10 09:09:00 - [4] - Quote No. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the aliterate.
Pelorios Pelorios Industries 1	Posted - 2014.08.10 10:56:00 - [5] - Quote if you mean, you can never lose any SP when dying, sure why not. As you say, its a bit excessive given that you have to replace implants & ship & modules, the medical clone is only a fraction of that, its becoming an nuisance. Much like the Learning skills were ...learning to learn!!?? glad they realized and took them out The point of the game is to be different. Not a robot. Stuff that is absolutely necessary with no variety should be taken off. You grind to get something that you want not something that you need. In fact what they should do regularly in this game is make a list of stuff that everybody has and does and consider providing for them if not automatically at no cost, a lot cheaper and easier. I would dare say that what you said holds for attribute-only implants too, i mean, come on, what respectable char doesn't get at least 5 x +3 impants. So whats the point? Ok given the current ingame cost structure if you removed attribute implants it would become too cheap. But they could consider doing that and bump other stuff up instead in the future
Samillian Angry Mustellid Overload Everything 586	Posted - 2014.08.10 11:12:00 - [6] - Quote Not supported. What is next on your list? Re-spawn points in-system and the automatic replacement of any implants? The inconvenience of replacing implants and upgrading your clone is part of the gamble when you go into combat. The more you remove such things from the game more pointless you make PvP and the more of its edge you remove. In short while you seek to encourage riskier behaviour (no bad thing) your method would make that behaviour inherently less risky. Plus let us be honest here it doesn't take much to set your medical clone up near to your current centre of activity or to remember to upgrade if your unlucky. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Pelorios Pelorios Industries 1	Posted - 2014.08.10 12:27:00 - [7] - Quote Samillian wrote: Not supported. The more you remove such things from the game more pointless you make PvP and the more of its edge you remove. I don't see how you remove from the edge of PVP by having an extra step at the station where you spawn which costs a lousy 10mil isk when you have to dish out 150mil + for implants and ship. How exciting or challenging something is, is not (only) measured by how much isk it costs when you lose. Samillian wrote: Plus let us be honest here it doesn't take much to set your medical clone up near to your current centre of activity or to remember to upgrade if your unlucky. agreed (although upgrading is a bit trickier-do we still get an ingame-email when we exceed the maxSP of the medical clones?)
Dave Stark 6733	Posted - 2014.08.10 14:42:00 - [8] - Quote also learning implants. the skill system should be totally separate from everything else.
epicurus ataraxia Lazerhawks 977	Posted - 2014.08.10 17:09:00 - [9] - Quote There are a lot of mechanics and mechanisms that are like the human appendix, there is no real need for it, but it is painful to cut out. I would welcome the wholesale removal of quite a few mechanics that have outlived their usefulness, Thank God learning skills went! We must be aware of just how deeply some of these are imbedded in the game structure, and those that wrote them are either no longer with CCP or probably can't even remember what they had to do to put them in in the first place. I am pretty certain the first line of code in the eve universe contains "beware, here be dragons" I hope that CCP consider all these ideas and mechanics when they go through the next major code change, there are many we would all be better off with without. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Athryn Bellee Concordiat Spaceship Samurai 6	Posted - 2014.08.10 17:17:00 - [10] - Quote Not supported. It is easy to remember to upgrade your clone, the medical button even flashes when you wake up in station. The character sheet shows if your current clone is adequate for your skillpoints, and if you click the medical button it shows you how many skills points you currently have.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 255	Posted - 2014.08.10 17:22:00 - [11] - Quote So apparently a lot of people need to fight in null more often. People already use minimal/nil implants as pod loss is basically a certainty and after losing a few 30m+ pods and soon it starts getting into "not insignificant" money. They've already cut costs, further would be nice.
Amerilia Flight School of the Republic 0	Posted - 2014.08.10 19:22:00 - [12] - Quote Medical clones is a nice example of bad complexity. You'll never want to not have a medical clone, so why make you buy one. Loss of implants can be plenty devastating and actually has an effect on the market. Medical Clones are just a meaningless isk sink.
Samantha Floyd Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.08.10 20:38:00 - [13] - Quote It should not be removed but it should be automatic. When you lose a clone it extracts the ISK from your wallet automatically and places you in a proper clone. If you lack the ISK, you are stuck in an alpha clone. Once you have enough ISK, you can go to a station and update the clone like you can now.
Jur Tissant Unreal Darkness 161	Posted - 2014.08.10 20:43:00 - [14] - Quote It does seem a little excessive to punish someone with weeks/months of training because they forgot to drop a few million ISK after they got podded. I mean, who is benefiting from the ISK cost anyways? All it seems to do is discourage PVP and getting into dangerous situations.
Athryn Bellee Concordiat Spaceship Samurai 7	Posted - 2014.08.10 20:48:00 - [15] - Quote Jur Tissant wrote: It does seem a little excessive to punish someone with weeks/months of training because they forgot to drop a few million ISK after they got podded. I mean, who is benefiting from the ISK cost anyways? All it seems to do is discourage PVP and getting into dangerous situations. You don't hit a 1m isk clone until 25m sp and that's not possible until about a year or so I think. Clones don't hit eight figures until 92m sp either.
Tabyll Altol CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 9	Posted - 2014.08.10 21:23:00 - [16] - Quote nice what did you loose. btw not supported. -1
GreenSeed 1103	Posted - 2014.08.10 21:31:00 - [17] - Quote Jump clones, medical clones, learning implants. those things are terrible for the game, its an ISK sink placed in the worst place imaginable. there's NO argument against the removal of medical clones other than "there are other more pressing matters". the only arguments i see here are "it shouldn't be removed because eve is hard and clicking 3 times before undocking is what makes the game hard." and "whats next, making ships free?" one argument is not really an argument, its just an old lady afraid of change, and the other argument is a ridiculous exaggeration of the implications of such change. the idea of medical clones was to create risk, when in reality all it does is either make the risk so high that taking it would be irrational, or simply makes the risk so calculated that when the pod loss finally occurs no implants are lost, and no SP is lost either because you had the clone and better yet, you take the pod Express to a station where you already expected to get spawned with an active bridge waiting to take you back. the point is, its either absolute risk, or no risk at all. the idea of being taxed to play the game is ridiculous. and arguing "well i don't lose clones" is stupid, you don't lose them because you are on the wining side, you are so imbedded on the eve mentality of only engaging on a fight when you are sure of winning it that you don't see the negative effect of game mechanics that make that rationale possible. removing unnecessary punishments on failure, increases the odds of people trying to succeed. that's why countries have bankruptcy laws. and if we remove them who knows, maybe you will start losing clones instead of fighting against the brave/irrational few that dare to undock and fight when all odds are stacked against them. and no, "free ships" in no way follows "removing Medical Clones", that's a captious leap of reasoning and one i would expect people avoiding outside of terrible forums like GD.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2067	Posted - 2014.08.10 21:31:00 - [18] - Quote When you PvP from the start, getting a clone become second nature. When you've carebeared it up till you have tons of SP, yeah I can see how you make that mistake ... and you deserve it. What skill was it? Capitals V? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Christopher Mabata Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 84	Posted - 2014.08.10 21:36:00 - [19] - Quote I've lost 5 ALvl 5 skills from un-updated clones Including: Carrier 5 Jump Drive Calibration 5 Capital Ships 5 Cybernetics 5 and Caldari Battleship 5 yet I still support the idea of Medical Clones, sure it sucks if you dont update them but its fun when you kill someones unupdated clone and they lose a hefty L5 skill Keep med clones theyre working as intended Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á
Kaerakh Surprisingly Deep Hole Try Rerolling 411	Posted - 2014.08.10 22:29:00 - [20] - Quote Stealth nerf economy thread. -1 Schrodinger's Hot Dropper - The Fate of Forum Alts - Click me! Click me!
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 38	Posted - 2014.08.10 23:02:00 - [21] - Quote No, I like it as it is... it's one of those things in EVE that makes me remember that she's a mean old crazy *****.
Sethris Svea Rike Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2014.08.12 10:19:00 - [22] - Quote While removing clone costs all together might be nice on paper, I don't think it is the way to go. Losing a pod should still hurt. My suggestion would be that there would only be one clone type instead of all the grades. However, the cost would be based on your most recent loss. Please! Before going on a rant of how bad this idea is allow me to elaborate! When flying a ship (any ship) you're not using your all of your skill points. You've trained to fly a frigate before moving on towards a battleship, yet you don't use the frigate skills (ship skill, gunnery skills) when sitting in a battleship. Of course there are overlaps in the skills used, but some skills are specific. Miners might be ratters as well, but when gettiung ganked in their mining barge they aren't using their ratting skills. If we can agree on this A while ago CCP introduced ISIS and the mastery system. I think this is something that could be usefull for this discussion. For example, if I'm new to flying a battleship - i.e. I only have mastery 1 or 2, and I get killed in that ship, and subsequently podded afterwards - the cost of the clone should be lower than when someone with master 5 got podded in the same ship. My reasoning is that, in theory, someone with a high mastery level should have a higher chance of survivability than someone with a lower mastery level. So after you've been podded and wake up in the station and go to update your clone, you'll only have one clone choice. The implicit choice of not updating your clone (and potentially lose skill points) will still be there. This might mean that if you've chosen to focus on frigates, for example, and have not trained any further, getting podded in a T1 frigate might be more expensive for you than then capital pilot that got podded next to you - despite him having 100m skill points and you only 20m. However, I feel that fair, since you should be better at flying that ship than him. Anyhow... Just a thought...
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1539	Posted - 2014.08.12 11:37:00 - [23] - Quote Samillian wrote: Not supported. What is next on your list? Re-spawn points in-system and the automatic replacement of any implants? The inconvenience of replacing implants and upgrading your clone is part of the gamble when you go into combat. The more you remove such things from the game more pointless you make PvP and the more of its edge you remove. In short while you seek to encourage riskier behaviour (no bad thing) your method would make that behaviour inherently less risky. Plus let us be honest here it doesn't take much to set your medical clone up near to your current centre of activity or to remember to upgrade if your unlucky. when you have over 160M SP the thing starts to get really expensive. Well used to be way worse. Not so long ago the pod used to cost way more than a battleship on this SP level :P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1180	Posted - 2014.08.12 14:49:00 - [24] - Quote Med clone upgrade are literally up in the alley of paperwork because :reasons: as far as a game mechanic goes. You do it because you have to. It's like a stupid layer of paperwork you have to do even if you know it will end up in a large filer never actually getting used. You only really do it because you get chewed up if you don't. Even your boss know it's useless but he will chew you up for it because someone chew him up when you forget it. At the top, there is someone who doesn't care but who decided it had to be done. He never requested any report over this but he still make sure everybody does it. Updating your clone is buisness as ususal, there are no choice over it. You update it because you have to, 3 clicks + some ISK and then, the mecanic can be entirely forgotten until you break the SP limit or get podded. You avoid the penalty by doing it but there would be nothing of value lost in if the thing was gone because it's normal procedure for the clone to be updated. There is no choice. No game reason to not follow the standard procedure. It influence nothing in the game except getting chewed up if you forgot. Why can't the game assume I will update my fuckign clone when there is actaully no drawback to it? Choosing to use implants or not has drawdack and provide meaningfull options, med clone upgrade have no option. It's useless as a mechanic except to add a stupid layer of things to do from time to time because.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 256	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:02:00 - [25] - Quote Sethris wrote: While removing clone costs all together might be nice on paper, I don't think it is the way to go. Losing a pod should still hurt. It already does without the need for a varying penalty based on toon age. Podded - lose implants. Hurt. No implants? Being hurt every second you sit in that pod compared to someone dotting about in high/low sec. Why should an empty clone cost twice the ship you lost it in "because $AGE"? It's flat out dumb. Either flat fee it, or get shot of it.
Foxstar Damaskeenus Biohazard. 159	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:07:00 - [26] - Quote Losing a nice ship sucks, getting ganked sucks, getting podded with implants sucks. Eve is hard and the risks seem real, that's why many of us play it. Original Post NOT SUPPORTED. Whats next? Get rid of ammo so you don't forget that too?
Foxstar Damaskeenus Biohazard. 159	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:08:00 - [27] - Quote afkalt wrote: [quote=Sethris] Why should an empty clone cost twice the ship you lost it in "because $AGE"? It's flat out dumb. Either flat fee it, or get shot of it. I don't disagree entirely with that. 50 million for a pod upgrade seems excessive.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1180	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:19:00 - [28] - Quote Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote: Losing a nice ship sucks, getting ganked sucks, getting podded with implants sucks. Eve is hard and the risks seem real, that's why many of us play it. Original Post NOT SUPPORTED. Whats next? Get rid of ammo so you don't forget that too? The risk you mentionned would still eb there. You would still lose ships, you would still get ganked and you would still lose implants on death. The only thing gone with med clones is the :file a report about your death in 3 copies and put them in this filer here: portion of the system because nobody ever opened the filer. It's only there to accept the reports. Charge me the ISK for all I care, just remove the stupid manual clicking process. Ammo is a choice for combat. You have different options which have meaningfull impact in game. Your clone is not a meanigfull choice, there is only 1 option which is optimal and one which never really gets chosen except by misstake. Meaningless mechanic are not needed in this game.
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 305	Posted - 2014.08.12 15:35:00 - [29] - Quote Hmm, to be absolutely honest, I could do without reocurring clone insurenaces. I have been called a bitter-vet like most of you and I am not and neither are you, but I believe this one is a feature that stuck around due to our affinity of being creatures of habits - and for no other reason. If you imagine for the sake of the arguemnt, that you upgrade your clone once or not at all and the SP would be safe and someone would suggest the system we have now, almost everyone in the forum would rage and take the opposite position as you are doing now. Just saying. I find it detrimental like the pure learning implants and these are the things keeping me, not completely, but from the more casual form of PvP. Instead of jumping into an adequate ship when the mood strikes you you have to consider 3 things instead of one and each thing adds enormously to the perceived (if not always real) cost. 1.) The ship 2.) The Implants 3.) The clone itself 1. If you want to PvP you count the ship as lost and even if you do not have an appropriate ship it is easy to throw somethign that kind-a fits together and head out. This risk or los of value is calculated and can easily be dealt with in mind as in finances. 2. Adding the implants adds an enormous risk factor to the consideration, especially if the engagement is casual and the implants do not bring any benefit to the venture in themselves (arguing only pure learning implants here). This is more of a gamble then a calculated risk, you might get the pod out, you might not. Can you jump clone, have a jumpclone, can install one, is the cooldown finished, how far is that clone... all considerations that will add to the resistance to PvP. 3. Losing the clone itself is another gamble and risk that further lowers the willingless to 'just head out and wing it' and adds up in more doubt in the venture and more possible and/or calculated loss. In most cases, where I would have just jumped ship and head out to assist a friend or just go for some spree, the costs, gambles and effort (yes, there is way more effort involved in considering) beyond the ship are what kept me from engaging in PvP and lead me to do just another mission or mine some more... not really what most here would like to see promoted. My observation and rationalization and conclusen are to do away with clone insurance (one permanent upgrade at max) and the pure learning implants. All the sets already have bonusses to attributes and give another, active and event related reason to use or save (store) them. The only thing the pure implants do is prevent you from undocking in most cases. And no, no hit on the economy, it will balance iteslf out. Not sure how ppl will get richer from not paying clone upgrades but getting blown up more -¦-¦ Cheers TL;DR Reverse the circumstances, check your arguments and consider the results. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 256	Posted - 2014.08.12 16:10:00 - [30] - Quote To add to the above 3a) Losing the pod is null is not a gamble, it is not a risk. it is a matter of (usually pretty short) time especially for the 'dictor pilots. Where's the reward? Why should I ever plug anything into a 'dictor pilots pod? Odds of escape are about the same as the odds of losing a pod in low/high.

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