| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1802
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
EDIT: welp small mistake I'll check my math and be back  Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nevermind the fact that training a skill instantly makes my cargo bay bigger, or that my ship magically orients to a horizontal plane when I sit still, by all means let's try and figure out using real math how warp drives work in game. |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1802
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
I think I got the deceleration formula too.
Assuming j is the deceleration constant (from here):
v = max speed * e^(-jt)
With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.
So the time to decelerate from max speed to 100 m/s = ln (max speed / 100) / j. Max speed must be in m/s, so you need to multiply AU/s speed by 150 billion. For example you get:
. 11.6 seconds for an inty (8 AU/s, j = 2) . 22.2 seconds for a cruiser (3 AU/s, j = 1) yes, I know Fozzie says 21.6 seconds, it depends on that '100 m/s cutoff', which is the best number that I could get to replicate Fozzie's numbers for all the different ships. Close enough 
The distance (in AU) you need to be able to 'hit the brakes' and stop from max speed is simply max speed (in AU) / j.
So an inty needs 4 AU, a cruiser 3 AU.
The distance you need to accelerate to max speed is always exactly 1 AU.
So once you know the cruise distance, the cruise time is simply distance / speed.
Then you add the 3 times (accel+cruise+decel) and you got your answer! Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1802
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:21:00 -
[34] - Quote
I'll try I simplified version, just the final formulas:
k is your max warp speed (as shown in game) j is the number you need to get from here D is warp distance (in AU)
t1 (accel time) is 25.7/k
t3 (decel time) is (ln(k) + 21.1)/j
d2 (cruise distance) is D-1-k/j
t2 (cruise time) is d2/k
t1+t2+t3 is your total warp time! \o/
Let's try it on the Battlecruiser here, warping 10 AU: k = 2.5 AU/s j = 0.8 D = 10 AU
t1 = 25.7/2.5 = 10.3 seconds t3 = (ln(2.5)+21.1)/0.8 = 27.5 seconds d2 = 10-1-2.5/0.8 = 5.9 AU t2 = 5.9/2.5 = 2.4 seconds
Total time = 10.3+27.5+2.4 = 40.2 seconds! \o/ it works (I hope )
It becomes trickier if you don't have enough distance to accelerate/decelerate from max speed... I'll maybe try that one tomorrow  Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

stoicfaux
5266
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.
IIRC 100m/s or 50% of sub-warp speed. I lost my bookmarks, so let me see if I can dig up the reference.
reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902148#post3902148
Quote:You're mostly correct, yes. The exact time depends on the max (sub-warp) speed of the ship. Obviously this varies a lot even within a single ship class, and even more so depending on fittings. Ships will exit warp mode when their warping speed drops below 50% of sub-warp max speed, or 100m/s, whichever is the lower. My chart is written assuming a simplified fixed exit at 100m/s, so it sounds like your math is good :)
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1802
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote: With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.
IIRC 100m/s or 50% of sub-warp speed. I lost my bookmarks, so let me see if I can dig up the reference. reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902148#post3902148Quote:You're mostly correct, yes. The exact time depends on the max (sub-warp) speed of the ship. Obviously this varies a lot even within a single ship class, and even more so depending on fittings. Ships will exit warp mode when their warping speed drops below 50% of sub-warp max speed, or 100m/s, whichever is the lower. My chart is written assuming a simplified fixed exit at 100m/s, so it sounds like your math is good :)
Thanks, mate!
75 m/s actually works pretty good in replicating Fozzie's numbers, except for Titans/Freighters where you'd need 10 m/s, for some reason... Could also just be a mistake in my calculations, obviously. 
EDIT: saw you're update. Awesome, that explains everything... Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
16352
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Guiz, CCP's maths are wrong. According to the maths, I should have taken 23.22 seconds to warp from this gate to that gate, but in reality it took 23.41 seconds. I timed it with my iphone!
Therefore I should be reimbursed .19 seconds of training time for every warp I do because reasons. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
3286
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 09:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:No, we are talking about the moment the ship enters the warp. You're assuming that the code also makes that 0 time.
The graphs would suggest otherwise and it's not as far as I am aware.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12686
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 09:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
I never work out the maths behind something to this degree. Like all madmen I just toss stuff togther and it tends to work Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Daetharis
Rat Roids And Two Smoking Griefers
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
bloody 'ell fellow capsuleers.
I click on warp and let bygones be bygones.
Whatever folks are doing to necessitate such maths in the game is way way past me.
You're cleverer than I ! |

Gor Yo
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:OP, Fozzie's formulas are fine.
x = e^kt is distance, in meters; t is time in seconds
v = k*e^kt is speed, in m/s; this formula is the derivative of the above formula, aka the definition of speed. it's correct.
Now, say Vmax is your maximum warp speed. Vmax = k*A where A is 150 billion meters (1 AU).
So if you want to know acceleration time, its Vmax = k*A = k*e^kt.
==> A = e^kt
==> ln(A) = kt
==> t = ln(A)/k = 25.7 / k
For example, a cruiser (3 AU/s) would take 8.6 seconds to reach max warp speed, an inty (8 AU/s) would take 3.2 seconds.
Sounds about right to me, though I CBA to test it.
Fozzie was slightly fuzzier on deceleration, I'll think about it and post back if I nail the formula.
where did you get this from???? it is stated in the update info that k is equal to max warp speed, no additional multipliers. besides that, v=k*e^kt is NOT correct for the simple fact that v(0)=k, max warp speed already. there has to be an offset so that v(0)=0. that in turn will change the x(t) formula as well. |

Gor Yo
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ok, that was my initial reaction. Looking further into it, you may be right about it. Even disregarding boundary conditions, those formulas are wrong dimensions-wise. e is dimensionless, while x is meters, so x=e^anypower is wrong. the power of e should be dimensionless as well, but kt has distance dimensions, etc.
Anyway, in this light, Vmax as kA may be correct as it converts AU to meters. Then taking into account the corrected formula we do get warp acceleration time as t_warp=ln(A+1)/k and it sounds about right for my rigged badger with 6 point something warp speed. So that part you got right. The distance though to reach max speed would be different. 11 seconds for deceleration though(same as interceptor, since k for deceleration is min(2,warp_speed/3)? I will check in game later today. It seems way to long. And it always looked to me like when the ship is out of warp, the speed gauge is at about 1/4. Could be different for different ships though, I will check in game later today!
Well, thank you Gully for staying on topic and actually contributing, unlike 20+ other responses in this thread!  |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1815
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:Ok, that was my initial reaction. Looking further into it, you may be right about it. Even disregarding boundary conditions, those formulas are wrong dimensions-wise. e is dimensionless, while x is meters, so x=e^anypower is wrong. the power of e should be dimensionless as well, but kt has distance dimensions, etc. Anyway, in this light, Vmax as kA may be correct as it converts AU to meters. Then taking into account the corrected formula we do get warp acceleration time as t_warp=ln(A+1)/k and it sounds about right for my rigged badger with 6 point something warp speed. So that part you got right. The distance though to reach max speed would be different. 11 seconds for deceleration though(same as interceptor, since k for deceleration is min(2,warp_speed/3)? I will check in game later today. It seems way to long. And it always looked to me like when the ship is out of warp, the speed gauge is at about 1/4. Could be different for different ships though, I will check in game later today! Well, thank you Gully for staying on topic and actually contributing, unlike 20+ other responses in this thread!  Yw!
Tbh, I was about to post a useless but witty reply too, but then I noticed the server issues/extended downtime and decided it would be more fun to try to work out the maths. 
The formulas I've posted give exactly the same figures of Fozzie's spreadsheet, so they should be quite ok.
Yes, it takes inties 11 seconds to decelerate. The deceleration constant is capped at 2 no matter the max warp speed - even if, say, you put 3 T2 warp speed rigs on an inty. It's pretty clear in the second graph here. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

Gor Yo
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Yw! Tbh, I was about to post a useless but witty reply too, but then I noticed the server issues/extended downtime and decided it would be more fun to try to work out the maths.  The formulas I've posted give exactly the same figures of Fozzie's spreadsheet, so they should be quite ok. Yes, it takes inties 11 seconds to decelerate. The deceleration constant is capped at 2 no matter the max warp speed - even if, say, you put 3 T2 warp speed rigs on an inty. It's pretty clear in the second graph here.
Yeah, I calculated the proper acceleration distance and it is not much different from 1 AU, since the speeds and distances we are talking about here are so huge. The trick seems to be to convert meters to AU and back at certain points in calculations, and compare the results with actual numbers in game.
Well, it seems I made the right decision to go for agility as a 3rd rig, since deceleration takes a lot of time (half or more for shorter trips) and increasing warp speed above 6 AU/s doesnt affect deceleration times. On the other hand, for ships with max sub-warp speed below 200m/s, increasing it to at least 200 might actually cut down the deceleration time a bit. It is a negative exponent and the tail comes down very slowly.
|

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1815
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:04:00 -
[45] - Quote
I just noticed j=k/3 up to k=6, so that means deceleration distance is exactly 3 AU up to 6AU/s max speed.
I previously thought that j (decel constant) was fixed for each hull type. I edited my previous post accordingly.
This also means that fitting 3x warp speed rigs to a cruiser actually does make it warp almost as fast as a frigate - interesting. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |

Gor Yo
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:I just noticed j=k/3 up to k=6, so that means deceleration distance is exactly 3 AU up to 6AU/s max speed.
I previously thought that j (decel constant) was fixed for each hull type. I edited my previous post accordingly.
This also means that fitting 3x warp speed rigs to a cruiser actually does make it warp almost as fast as a frigate - interesting.
Yep, deceleration coefficient is the minimum of 2 or k/3. And yeah, that little chart is really misleading when they indicate warp speeds by hull class. Heck, even t1 industrials have versions with 3 and 4.5 warp speeds.
So looks like acceleration distance is always ~1 AU, and deceleration distance is ~3 AU (or k/2 for warp speeds above 6). The "correct" formulas give only a very little adjustment - like A vs A+1 in one case, and 1 vs 1-v_exitwarp/kA.
Sorry, I had to be OCD about formulas. Any physicist would understand the need for honoring the boundary conditions :).
|

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1815
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 17:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
If you don't have enough distance to accelerate to maximum warp speed (you need exactly 4 AU up to 6 AU/s max warp speed; a bit more after that), the highest reachable warp speed should be:
Vmax = Dkj/(k+j)
You can use this new Vmax (instead of k*A) in the previous formulas, to calculate warp time over short distances.
Note: yes, I should've subtracted the exit warp speed in these and some of the previous formulas, but I simplified a bit since 100 m/s or so is much smaller than 1 or more AU/s :) Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |