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5678309
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:30:00 -
[1]
As many of you already know, Carriers and Dreads can be built in empire if you meet certain requirements. I'll not go into detail on exactly how it's done. Simply visit the "starbase" section of the forums for details on how it's done if interested.
This thread is to raise awareness of this and open discussion now that the first few capital ships have been been produced and verified deep within empire.
With the high requirements needed to build these ships in empire, their are currently very few of them and are not an issue at this time. But seeing as how it only takes 8 days to build one we can surely expect to see many more in the near future.
I believe that the biggest question to be asked of CCP is, "was this intended?"
I personally see no issue with the production of capitals in empire. No dread or carrier is immune to 10-20 battleships and have been shown to fall rather swiftly to CONCORD on the test server. The price of these ships alone make them the most unlikely vehicle for empire ganking although it would certainly prove comical as an ore thiefs ship of choice.
Like it or not, capitals are here in empire and more are coming. And now, before they become commonplace is probably the best time to duscuss their validity.
I only ask that we keep this thread as civil as possible so that those with valid points on the issue can be heard by everyone.
Thank you |
Eternal Fury
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:40:00 -
[2]
I actually see Cap ship production in empire as being a good thing.
Why?
Becuase it will make a market for people to SELL these ships. And if there is a reliable market to purchase them, people will be a little more willing to risk them, knowing that they don't have to worry about their supply chain for that ship class being blown up in a war.
This will mean some smart small corps will capitalise(pardon the pun) on capital ship sales. This will also benefit miners, as they will have a large potential market for their minerals that isn't deep in 0.0.
So hopefully those with the ISK will contract out their ship production, buy the ship, and loose more of them because they have a steady supply of them if they have a steady supply of ISK.
I'm all for it.
Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join? |
Tammarr
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:40:00 -
[3]
What are you going to do with a dread or carrier in empire anyhow, am I misstaken saying that they will only reside in the system which they are built and thus do... ehm... a ofc macrominers...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:42:00 -
[4]
I agree with Eternal Fury on this.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kenya
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:42:00 -
[5]
I dont think its a big deal that there being built in empire systems (.5 and up), not like there will be a big use for them there. And as you stated already the cost of buying one will stop most ppl from using one in empire.
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Eternal Fury
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Eternal Fury on 17/07/2006 17:41:48
 Originally by: Tammarr
What are you going to do with a dread or carrier in empire anyhow, am I misstaken saying that they will only reside in the system which they are built and thus do... ehm... a ofc macrominers...
Cap ships have a sphere of a certain distance based on skills and fuel that they can jump. So you may be building in a high sec system, but they will then most likely be jumped directly to 0.0, and then moved quickly to the purchaseing corps home system.
Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join? |
Banduril
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tammarr
What are you going to do with a dread or carrier in empire anyhow, am I misstaken saying that they will only reside in the system which they are built and thus do... ehm... a ofc macrominers...
I think its time to lay seige to Jita's Caldari Navy Assembly Plant.
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BH Runner
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:44:00 -
[8]
This has been passed along to CCP Game Design team.
What I do know, is that currently the large ship assembly array is functioning as described and as programmed. The question has been asked if this ability is what was originally intended.
My own personal opinion on this issue, was initially one could build capital ships almost anywhere, there was then a change in the game design to move the production of non-freighter capital vessels limited to lower empire security and to zero security.
This should have included the large ship assembly array, and under certain circumstances it has not.
Although no actual bug is present, there may be an issue of game design and balance, I am asking for clarification as soon as it is possible.
[Bug Report Here] - [Contact Us] |
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:46:00 -
[9]
The problem with building them in high sec is that that removes a major part of the risk involved in their production: the logistics effort prior to the actual building.
Aside from that I've got no clue what effect carriers in particular might have on missions in the longer term. Assuming there'll be a level above 4 at some point, wouldn't they make that increased level of difficulty rather farcical ?
All in all I dont see any reason to actually have them produced in high sec either, so imo they shoudl simply not be able to be built there.
Old blog |
5678309
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Posted - 2006.07.17 18:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Eternal Fury
I actually see Cap ship production in empire as being a good thing.
Why?
Becuase it will make a market for people to SELL these ships. And if there is a reliable market to purchase them, people will be a little more willing to risk them, knowing that they don't have to worry about their supply chain for that ship class being blown up in a war.
This will mean some smart small corps will capitalise(pardon the pun) on capital ship sales. This will also benefit miners, as they will have a large potential market for their minerals that isn't deep in 0.0.
So hopefully those with the ISK will contract out their ship production, buy the ship, and loose more of them because they have a steady supply of them if they have a steady supply of ISK.
I'm all for it.
I fully agree with you on this. This would open the door for empire based corporations who have no interest in alliance affairs to actually trade openly with the alliances and still keep their distance from all the mess that comes with actually being in an alliance.
A sorta, "you scratch my back, I scratch yours..." type of transaction.
But even this has it's issues. Why bother with a 2nd party when you could do everything in-house?
Although this would remove a large logistical burden for an alliance at war I suppose. But then again, the alliances already have measures in place for working around war decs anyway.
Blain said something about carriers and mission. Alot of missions are sent out of their originating system and carriers are painfully slow. Add the fact that fighters cannot be deligated to anyone in high sec so I can't help but agree fully with your point on their usefullness. (Remote repairing a POS shields perhaps? only thing I can really think of...)
As for their production, I'd like to see this option remain. One of the underlying beauties of Eve is it's variety of play style.
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Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2006.07.18 04:30:00 -
[11]
 Always fun to see Dreads Mining in highsec. IIRC, there is someone who does that in the Amarr System. I saw it there at christmas and everyone was shooting snowballs at it outside the Emperor Family Acadamy.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.18 04:48:00 -
[12]
IMO unless something is unbalancing in some way then I cannot see why it would be such a big deal.
EvE is one game - its not two games - or three games.
As one game, providing content to the all the players of that game should be the goal - providing content to only one portion of the playerbase without a premium charge for that extra content is a little bit dishonest.
So having said that - can anyone point out how capital ships in empire unbalance the game? I dont believe they can use mission gates, nor mine better then a Hulk.
They can war but is warring in empire unbalancing?
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Lorth
Synchro.
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Posted - 2006.07.18 04:55:00 -
[13]
I didn't see a problem with it, untill I read Rod's post.
Missions, won't you please think of the missions...
Capital ships in missions, makes for an easy isk maker. The problem is, that you can't get them into high sec, unless of course you build them there. Which means of course, any mission in the same system that your capital ship is in.....
The other question/problem, are they ancorable by someone in an NPC corp. There's a huge issue if capatail ship production can be done in a POS that is effectivly immune.
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Recruit me |
Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.18 05:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lorth
I didn't see a problem with it, untill I read Rod's post.
Missions, won't you please think of the missions...
Capital ships in missions, makes for an easy isk maker. The problem is, that you can't get them into high sec, unless of course you build them there. Which means of course, any mission in the same system that your capital ship is in.....
The other question/problem, are they ancorable by someone in an NPC corp. There's a huge issue if capatail ship production can be done in a POS that is effectivly immune.
Capital ships cant use acceleration gates.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.07.18 06:06:00 -
[15]
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
Old blog |
BOB ALT
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Posted - 2006.07.18 06:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
I totally agree. Having the production of these ships being limited to 0.4-0.0 systems is acceptable in my opinion. There should be a degree of risk involved in building them for obvious logistical reasons you have stated. And being able to build them in low security empire still makes them accessable to everyone. Besides, these capital ships should be available to everyone who can afford them. They shouldn't be the play things of only the alliances and other 0.0 inhabitants.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.18 06:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: BOB ALT
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
I totally agree. Having the production of these ships being limited to 0.4-0.0 systems is acceptable in my opinion. There should be a degree of risk involved in building them for obvious logistical reasons you have stated. And being able to build them in low security empire still makes them accessable to everyone. Besides, these capital ships should be available to everyone who can afford them. They shouldn't be the play things of only the alliances and other 0.0 inhabitants.
If your going to blow each others POS up then I dont see why you cant just declare war on each other if you really want to hit them in Empire as well. If your unwilling then thats a consequence you face. Eve is supposed to be harsh and favour the aggressor.
I dont see that an unwillingness to declare war warrants a complete nerf of building capital ships in high sec so that alliances can still be empire huggers when they feel the need.
Remember - NBSI - Do it for real.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:16:00 -
[18]
Why would capital ships built in Empire be a problem?
Are they using them to suicide-gank my Badger full of Trit?
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"At least freelancer keeps the physics realistic."
-- SINKFIST |
SengH
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: SengH on 18/07/2006 09:31:42
Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Why would capital ships built in Empire be a problem?
Are they using them to suicide-gank my Badger full of Trit?
You could easily use a daisy chain of carriers to keep a high sec gatecamp going for a VERY long time 1 time thing only. Since concord only jams in 1.0.
A group of 2-4 carriers in a cap transfer/remote rep/shield transfer chain with 1 instalocking tackling BS thats being remote repaired by their logistics drones/capital shield transfers.
The BS locks down the target tackles it while the carriers chew it apart with fighters. At the end of the day when your done. Jump the carriers out each 1 by one. If the GM's yell that its an exploit. You let the last carrier die. Whoopdie doo its only 1.2bil (much less with insurance since you know its gonna die). If you bag multiple freighters/haulers post can changes. It would be well worth it.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:34:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 18/07/2006 09:34:45
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The problem with building them in high sec is that that removes a major part of the risk....
Maybe people like the style of game EVE is and are happy to pay the monthly subscritption despite never leaving high sec.
Originally by: Lorth
I didn't see a problem with it, untill I read Rod's post.
Missions, won't you please think of the missions...
Capital ships in missions, makes for an easy isk maker. The problem is, that you can't get them into high sec, unless of course you build them there. Which means of course, any mission in the same system that your capital ship is in.....
The other question/problem, are they ancorable by someone in an NPC corp. There's a huge issue if capatail ship production can be done in a POS that is effectivly immune.
Considering we all pay the same amount of money, spend the same amount of time in game playing for our rewards (think about that one) then why should the high sec people be 'punished' for liking a certain way of playing?
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
Some ppl are not in alliances.
Ship lovers click here |
Hakzor
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:36:00 -
[21]
Actually a Dread can infanitly tank Concorde as i done with my Revelation in Hig sec on Sisi
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SengH
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 18/07/2006 09:34:45
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The problem with building them in high sec is that that removes a major part of the risk....
Maybe people like the style of game EVE is and are happy to pay the monthly subscritption despite never leaving high sec.
Originally by: Lorth
I didn't see a problem with it, untill I read Rod's post.
Missions, won't you please think of the missions...
Capital ships in missions, makes for an easy isk maker. The problem is, that you can't get them into high sec, unless of course you build them there. Which means of course, any mission in the same system that your capital ship is in.....
The other question/problem, are they ancorable by someone in an NPC corp. There's a huge issue if capatail ship production can be done in a POS that is effectivly immune.
Considering we all pay the same amount of money, spend the same amount of time in game playing for our rewards (think about that one) then why should the high sec people be 'punished' for liking a certain way of playing?
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
Some ppl are not in alliances.
imho its prolly gonna be allowed. With factional warfare how do they expect people to conquer other empire space without the big guns? With all the pictures of empire dreads et al flying about blasting each other to crap in all the splash screens, cold war, red moon rising, blood. its amazing that there is only 1 empire dreadnought in existence and thats in a low sec cosmos complex.
Then again a 10mil LP Caldari Navy Phoenix with 5 missile slots and 5 highs would be pretty interesting lol. Or a super sized version of the machariel for the angel cartel (might make me wanna reactivate my guardian angel agent).
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hakzor
Actually a Dread can infanitly tank Concorde as i done with my Revelation in Hig sec on Sisi
Not dying to concord is an exploit. Anyone that does tank concord is to be petitioned.
Ship lovers click here |
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SengH
Then again a 10mil LP Caldari Navy Phoenix with 5 missile slots and 5 highs would be pretty interesting.
OMG... my head 'asplode!! 
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History of the MC movie! |
Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.18 09:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: BOB ALT
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well that reduces the issue.
On the other hand, in the world of alliance warfare logistics are the main target of conflict these days. If you allow no-risk production of capital ships you remove a viable part of alliance warfare.
Wasn't that the main reason why their production was moved to low sec only in the first place ?
I totally agree. Having the production of these ships being limited to 0.4-0.0 systems is acceptable in my opinion. There should be a degree of risk involved in building them for obvious logistical reasons you have stated. And being able to build them in low security empire still makes them accessable to everyone. Besides, these capital ships should be available to everyone who can afford them. They shouldn't be the play things of only the alliances and other 0.0 inhabitants.
If your going to blow each others POS up then I dont see why you cant just declare war on each other if you really want to hit them in Empire as well. If your unwilling then thats a consequence you face. Eve is supposed to be harsh and favour the aggressor.
I dont see that an unwillingness to declare war warrants a complete nerf of building capital ships in high sec so that alliances can still be empire huggers when they feel the need.
Remember - NBSI - Do it for real.
Could be I overlook something here...but you should have the option to weaken your opponents Capital Ship Production by attacking their POSs that produce them.
Take EC- as an example...
Now, if that all happens in high-sec space, sure you can wardec someone to be able to shoot their POSs, but how do you jump the Dreads into a high sec system to destroy the POS? You'd have to build them there wouldnt you...and that shouldnt be needed.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:01:00 -
[26]
You can kill a POS without dreads too.
Ship lovers click here |
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
You can kill a POS without dreads too.
Just make sure you have a good book around to pass the time... 
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History of the MC movie! |
Rolath
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Seleene
Originally by: Hellspawn01
You can kill a POS without dreads too.
Just make sure you have a good book around to pass the time...
QFT!! Especially when its a large, resistance hardened one :(
___________________________
The biggest problem with the tech 2 market is poor people. |
Blighter
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:12:00 -
[29]
Perhaps you cannot wap a Capital ship into a mission area, but you can assign a BS or other ship fighters, and have them burn through the missions with the fighters.
Then you don;t even need weapon skill to run missions anymore. Drone 5, tank skill, and you can run any level 4 mission
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ArtemisEntreri
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.07.18 10:22:00 -
[30]
You can do missions in capital ships, they can use acceleration gates and it's quite popular.
Originally by: Vadoc Trax
The only actual players are BoB, everyone else are their alts, and alts of alts.
CCP is also BoB.
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