I smell an early run at CSM10.

That aside, nice read. Hope you keep it up, but Rogue Asteroids sound worse than Rogue Drones.

We know all drones are a little bit rogue. Will that make all asteroids a little bit rogue too.

CSM would be cool, but I'm terrible at EVE. :(

You'll be a shoe-in then.

Loose that prot yet? :P

I did! It died gloriously when I didn't receive reps.

Zero fornications were given I presume?

It was already replaced.

Was a great read m8 thnxz.

what would you say to a shake up of mining ships? turn them into hybrids? scaling from frigate size to battleship size role bonuses like the new SOE but for mining an exploration/combat? maybe choice of sacrificing drone bay for coupla turret slots or missiles.

No idea tbh, been thinking alot about it though to myself an i am in agreement with you that it needs looked at sooner hopefully rather than later

I think the mining frigate and barge lines are in a good place right now. The Procurer/Skiff gets a huge tank and fields considerable DPS at the moment.

With the change to compression I do think the Rorqual needs some love, and it would be neat to have a "capital" level mining vessel, but I'm not sure if the game really needs that.

They should make ships that let you mine other ship's shield HP, then Armor HP, then hull HP until they go boom, and then have them randomly drop stuff that was on the ship and let you loot and salvage them.

That would be the most awesome way to mine, evar!

pretty authentic representation of space.

I don't get why people think there's anything wrong with mining. Do you mine? What are you basing your opinion on?

I don't think epeen has a problem with mining or miners, just the model of asteroid belts currently used in the game.

I'd almost go as far as to say epeen loves miners, but that is my own assumption based on reading his posts.

Premise Two: For the level of risk involved, HiSec mining is leagues more profitable than in LowSec or NullSec.

That's simply wrong.

It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen

I invite you to explain why my premise is wrong.



Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"

Because mining in nullsec is more lucrative than it is in highsec and the risk isn't that much higher. Ask a renter.

I'd almost go as far as to say epeen loves miners, but that is my own assumption based on reading his posts.

So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen

I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player...

Oh you mean the kind of stuff that will get players to buy bots or flat out quit?

Leave mining the hell alone! You want more interactive, go reset your PI extractors every minute for maximum PI profits and see how long you can last before you realize just how terrible your "more interactive" idea really is.

I would like to see mining more as an activity based on searching for ore where both in-game and out-of-game skills come together. Maybe kind of like PI but on smaller scale with probes shot at asteroids, triangulation of best yield areas, etc. To be honest act of putting ore in your cargo should be least important part of whole process, finding ore should be the most important and time & skill & fun inducing part.

Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"

No game should encourage actively not playing it while logged in.

PI is fine because, much like industry, it is "off screen", for lack of a better word.

Mining, on the other hand, is out in open space. Besides, if they make mining into a visual minigame like hacking is, it's pretty tricky to actually bot.

So, two of the worst things in EVE are destroyed simultaneously. The worst bastion of afk gameplay, and the most bot friendly activity.

Come up with ideas that cause competition over resources, ie pvp, not minigames that the vast majority will hate.

That doesn't mean that the ratio isn't more favorable in HiSec (else why would most mining take place in HiSec?). For example you can AFK in HiSec all day, whereas in NullSec you can't.

At current prices you make about 1 mil more an hour mining Crokite than Scordite. You make 2 mil an hour less, and 3 mil an hour less, mining Arkonor and Bistot, respectively.

You actually make more ISK/hr mining the 3 LowSec ores than you do any NullSec ore. I'm not sure why that is. I think it's due to with the sizes of the ores being smaller than the NullSec ores.

So what you're saying is either HiSec needs to become even safer, or NullSec needs a shake up to make it less safe.

EDIT: But let me ask you a question regarding NullSec mining: Is it safe when there's neutrals in system?

I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

I mean the physical size of the ore. m3.

Shorter cycle, smaller rocks, bigger ore - those are all just rubbish ideas, sorry. Mining needs gameplay, it needs to be a process, something that requires planning and skills and player involvement. Being active should be rewarded and encouraged not punished by even more time wasted on waiting for dull moments to end. Rock is smaller/ore is bigger so more often I have to warp to station, dock, drop ore, undock, warp to belt, activate lazorz again - this is all time wasted and it could be spend on something productive. And that is basically all game mechanics should be designed to support - less hurdle more activity.

What do you propose?

I think they should implement some sort of mini-game along the lines of the hacking window for exploration. Something that requires some sort of thinking and problem solving, like maneuvering through dense sections of ore in order to preserve the integrity of your mining crystals or some such. Anything that promotes an element of randomness, something that rewards player skill, or breaks up the repetitiveness of the current mechanic.

Okay. How would they implement these changes with the current mechanics we have now?

you could have 1 veldspar asteroid of 5m3 in each hisec system only and still 99% of miners would not leave hisec to go to null or low. They would leave eve completely.

people seem to be under the impression that mining is broken/ boring- if that is truly the case, why do so many people mine? It can't just be afk and bots doing it all. can it?

you could have 1 veldspar asteroid of 5m3 in each hisec system only and still 99% of miners would not leave hisec to go to null or low. They would leave eve completely.

people seem to be under the impression that mining is broken/ boring- if that is truly the case, why do so many people mine? It can't just be afk and bots doing it all. can it?

Since highsec cheered so loudly about the implementation of the ESS as originally a straight up nerf to income, I suggest a similar action. Since, of course, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Well, unless they're all hypocrites anyway.

30% reduction in ore amount if you fail or don't do the minigame, 10% bonus if you do and succeed.

according to zkillboard, today, more than twice as many retrievers have been killed in hisec than null and low combined 33 - 15

are you sure its safer in hisec?

according to zkillboard, today, more than twice as many retrievers have been killed in hisec than null and low combined 33 - 15

are you sure its safer in hisec?

30% reduction in ore amount if you fail or don't do the minigame, 10% bonus if you do and succeed.

You really think some mini game would be better than actual gameplay? Geez... Let's have mini game for every frakking thing from undock button to titan bridge

Did you even read my previous post? This one.

Did you even read my previous post? This one.

That's exploration, not mining itself.

The act of mining would be unchanged, the same stupid, boring, pointless click one button three times an hour and get bacon nonsense that needs to be expunged from the game.

are you sure its safer in hisec?

Because how strip miners work couldn't be changed as well, right?
So why don't just mini game and rock pops leaving can full of ore? That would be much better than promoting group effort to find and extract ore. Yeah, I can see it... Sorry for wasting your time and precious forum space. 'Nerf hisec' is so much better solution for everything. And so creative.

But I don't know that it's enough on it's own, since once you start mining at the new belt, you're right back to where you left off with the old drudgery. I also don't think that just because something is called a 'mini-game' that it's not a part of the overall gameplay. It just happens to be encapsulated into a more distinct activity than most other things in the game, but it is still something you do within the game, and I think it could make mining a bit more engaging personally.

I don't know, I'm sure there are ways for make it more robust and interesting and group oriented than what we have now. But if we start every discussion with "nerf by 30% and mini game" we won't go anywhere.

@Kaarous Aldurald
And yes, I noticed your "10% more if succeed in mini game" but that's not making mining into fully fleshed resource gathering feature, that's just tamagotchi so you don't get bored by 90-ish second of waiting for your hulk cycle to end.

Why won't we go anywhere with that? That's exactly what they line up to suggest happens to every other part of space, week after week.

Imagine if "Asteroid Fields" spawned between planets instead of around, and gave the impression that the miner was in a cloud of rocks.

according to zkillboard, today, more than twice as many retrievers have been killed in hisec than null and low combined 33 - 15

are you sure its safer in hisec?

Haha, fair enough.

Really I just wanted to keep my writing skills from atrophying into complete terribleness. Also throw some ideas out there for the community and the Devs to mull over.

What you'll get with your proposal is the big null guys organizing mining ops in their safe sov-null enclaves (maybe) and the high-sec miners quitting because they can't make a buck anymore (surely).

You're never going to get the high-sec miners to move to low/null-sec. Period.

1. nerf some of the ore spawns in highsec: Did you know that veldspar is one of the most profitable ores in highsec? you're changes won't make this any different.

change how much ore spawns in each system: so now people who want to mine gotta jump around to find "good" spots? I'm guessing you've not done much travelling in a mining barge. and no warping from your POS to the belt in the WH doesn't count as travelling.

Ah, good. Hadn't seen this strawman in a while.

No one wants to force them to move anywhere. We want to make them actually have to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game.

Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.

I'm seeing a lot of mentions of a "mining mini-game", and I've been seeing mentions of such a thing for quite a while.

As someone who splits his time between industry and combat depending on mood, such a thing would be more obnoxious than helpful.

I think we need to really analyze a few things to really reach some kind of conclusion.

Firstly, why do people mine? I know that in my own case, and a few others that I know, and possibly many others that I do not know, it's to relax and/or socialize. So before we entertain any real proposals to a "mining mini-game", if such a proposed mini-game gets in the way of relaxation and socialization, it will just annoy people and drive them away from it. I know that I myself would stop mining and just buy ores and minerals exclusively for any production pursuits I may engage in. The best part of mining is the mindlessness of it.

Secondly, how do we want rewards to scale based on the numbers of people (either characters or actual people)? With regards to alternate characters, CCP gets tons of money based on multiboxing miners, and anything that makes this gameplay style impossible or more trouble than it's worth will result in a substantial loss of revenue. A "scatter" mechanic would allow for more individuals to increase earning potential, but would be a penalty to multiboxers. As a matter of personal preference, and as one who does not use multiple characters, this would be acceptable to me, but not for many others.

So what's a solution? I can't really pin anything down myself, but the things that need to be considered are retaining the relaxing and social aspects that are currently present in mining, and give scaling benefits for group play.

Just a few thoughts before we all get on the clickfest mini-game bandwagon.

EDIT: As an addendum, if such a mini-game were to be implemented, you'd need much more than a 10% boost (like a previous poster suggested), since the change in effort from the current mining system (basically none) to a full-blown mini-game is very large. Much more effort for not much more reward is a bad design move.

A "scatter" mechanic would allow for more individuals to increase earning potential, but would be a penalty to multiboxers. As a matter of personal preference, and as one who does not use multiple characters, this would be acceptable to me, but not for many others.

Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.

Really? Because I have no trouble at all telling the difference.

Instead of trolling the forums 24/7 , why don't you try playing and interacting with other players for a change.

Conclusion Two: The risk:reward ratio of mining needs to be altered, making it less more rewarding to do in dangerous areas.

Ah, good. Hadn't seen this strawman in a while.

No one wants to force them to move anywhere. We want to make them actually have to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game.

Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.

Looks like the editor on that site needs to do a worse better job.

tldr other forms of pve should emulate mining to allow players to focus on the social element of the game while doing so

Actually, I just finished ganking a couple of Ventures, for the contest.

Lol no. The other forms of the game should not be turned into clicking a button a few times an hour and getting free stuff.

If you want that, go play a Facebook game.

clicking a button a few times an hour and getting free stuff.

Anyway I'm sorry you don't like my ideas. I knew it would upset a few AFK miners. I'm just surprised so few have shown up to rage.

Yes massive rouge asteroids... give them even less reason to alt tab into the game

(stuff)

Nothing beats ISK/hr of selling PLEX so I do that for money and anything else I do in game is just out of love, curiosity, boredom, sudden interest, lolz and :reasons:

Now, how about them bigger rocks?

How about this: new modules allowing to "expose" ore better for lasers to gather.

And since ore would be only discoverable (sites) and scarce (no more than x simultaneous per system or sth) and elusive (signatures fading away with time) cycles of actual mining lazors could be make faster without worrying about saturation of market with instant ore fountains.

- Remove all static belts, including ice belts. Make them spawn randomly in all areas of space and not appear on system scanner.

- Give the survey scanner selectable "scripts". Not scripts that you actually have to buy and store in cargo, but they are built into the actual module. Right click and select the ore type you want to find.

- Run the survey scanner while looking at the map overview to get a bunch of little colored dots to warp to. Color of dot tells you how concentrated the ore you are looking for is in that area. So set survey scanner to veldspar, run module, see dots. Set to plagioclase, run module, see different dots. Some dots will be small pockets of roids in the middle of nowhere, most will be parts of the rings around planets or solarsystem. Warp to your chosen dot.

- Run survey scanner while looking at all the pretty roids to get a graphical sweep in space, like the probe scanner when you enter a system. It will show a heatmap overlaid on the roid models that will dissipate after some time. So if you have survey scanner set to veldspar, it will highlight the rocks containing large amounts of veldspar. Load plagioclase script to see plagioclase. etc. The roids themselves are not named by ore type, and can not be visually identified either. You could use the cloven asteroid model from missions, and it may or may not contain any of the ores. Survey scanner will help you identify whats in there.

-Roids can contain several ores. Running lasers without crystals, you may get an assortment of ores from some roids. Usually mostly one ore, with trace amounts of others. Using crystals you can pinpoint and only receive the ore you want in addition to the higher yield rate.

- Roids don't pop but the ore you want depletes quickly and doesn't give huge amounts. So you have to move around more from roid to roid, leaving barren roids behind.

- Make mining ships align faster, move faster, can fit prop mod, can warp a lot without cap depletion, etc.

So miners have to search for their ore and be more active. Likewise gankers will have to search for the miners. Bots will have a more difficult time probably and end up mining crap roids for trace amounts of ore. Survey scanner is now a more useful module. Tiers of survey scanner can have different effects. Maybe the T2 version is more accurate than the T1.

I still stand by what i said to you on reddit the other day when you posted it there.

First thing game should have implemented and provide is interesting and engaging gameplay for players not anti-bot safeties :)