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Amarr. A dying faction?

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Tsun Lao	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:18:00 - [1] Edited by: Tsun Lao on 20/07/2006 15:19:00 After some close observation I have come to the conclusion that Amarr is really struggeling. Not just by looking at PVP where Amarr usually draws the shortest straw, but also in terms of PVE (Raven ftw etc) Create a few alts, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar and see who has the fewest people in alliance chat. Amarr are loosig on all fronts, and I cant figure out why CCP isnt adressing this issue. Unless tux is the new ceo.
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:22:00 - [2] Amarr isn't really being screwed over horribly, but you are right, they are often underused in combat. However, they have a few advantages, especially for lowsec NPCing.
Novarei Ninth Column	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:22:00 - [3] Its the cycle of nerf and boost. --------------------
Novarei Ninth Column	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:26:00 - [4] Originally by: turnschuh DIE AMARRS DIE You wish. --------------------
turnschuh Eye of God	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:26:00 - [5] DIE AMARRS DIE
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Victor Vision on 20/07/2006 15:30:36 Originally by: Tsun Lao Edited by: Tsun Lao on 20/07/2006 15:19:00 After some close observation I have come to the conclusion that Amarr is really struggeling. Not just by looking at PVP where Amarr usually draws the shortest straw, but also in terms of PVE (Raven ftw etc) Create a few alts, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar and see who has the fewest people in alliance chat. Amarr are loosig on all fronts, and I cant figure out why CCP isnt adressing this issue. Unless tux is the new ceo. Amarr is a dying race? I resent that statement, Sir. It's just... the air gets thin at the top
White Ronin	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:30:00 - [7] Arbitrator ftw One of the best drone cruisers in the game. Hands down. And its T2 versions (Curse and Pilgram) are pwnmobiles of the highest caliber. Bar none.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:32:00 - [8] Flying minnie ships, i cant say i respect lasers much. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rodj Blake Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:33:00 - [9] There's nothing wrong with Amarr that a new Emperor and lower PG reqs on beam lasers won't sort out. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Rodj Blake Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Victor Vision Amarr is a dying race? I resent that statement, Sir. It's just... the air gets thin at the top Or in the case of most Amarrian men, the hair gets thin on the top Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:35:00 - [11] KILL THE HERETIC!!!11 -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| Visual Building Guide (Both work in game too!)
hylleX Spontaneous Defenestration Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Jim McGregor Flying minnie ships, i cant say i respect lasers much. Crystals need more thermal damage its just stoopid right now. EAN + Any ship = Lasers crap, Minmatar ship + EAN = Is someone throwing stones at me? ---------------------------------------------------------
Saeris Tal'Urduar Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:37:00 - [13] Dying race, no. The problem is the Amarr are the best balanced race. And because the other three are not, it makes the Amarr look unattractive play-wise.
Kilo Paskaa Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:40:00 - [14] Theres nothing wrong with amarr. You just think because they only use guns and hard tank to fight while others use itty bitty ewar and drones (BOO!!).
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Victor Vision Amarr is a dying race? I resent that statement, Sir. It's just... the air gets thin at the top Or in the case of most Amarrian men, the hair gets thin on the top Erm yes, that too.
Grimpak Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing wrong with Amarr that a new Emperor and lower PG reqs on beam lasers won't sort out. QFT ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Zaphod Jones Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:45:00 - [17] Edited by: Zaphod Jones on 20/07/2006 15:47:30 Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Dying race, no. The problem is ... the Amarr look unattractive ... pics of Eris without her pink bits
Permian	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:49:00 - [18] 43 pages devoted to the Amarr situation
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Dying race, no. The problem is the Amarr are the best balanced race. And because the other three are not, it makes the Amarr look unattractive play-wise. The problem, the way I see it, is that all of the "uber" mods are medium slot. And we know how many medium slots Amarr ships get. EW, those freaking sensor boosters, etc.
Brother Tycho Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:54:00 - [20] when people look outside at amarr they base there opinions on only a couple of our ships ie: Curse Pilgrim and Zelot Curse's and Pilgrim's work as there damage comes from drones. Zelot works well due to the extra range and dmg in its Bonus. these ships are T2 however. in some respects amarr ships are fine i think the punisher is fairly balanced. the omen and maller are fairly dire so yeah Arbi is our best Cruiser after all it dose not need lasers to make dmg. i think lasers are the problem with amarr ships they suck to much cap 75% of npcs have crazy em resists i would say most people pvping have at least 60 to 80 em. in the Amarr BS line up we have the Geddon that has to little cap to run a AB armour tank and fire at the same time for any period of time ok it an gank but with enough dmg mods any ship can. the Apoc has too little dmg is too slow and works better with projectiles so yeah change the -10% cap use to proj rate of fire. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Imperial Coercion	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:57:00 - [21] Originally by: White Ronin Arbitrator ftw One of the best drone cruisers in the game. Hands down. And its T2 versions (Curse and Pilgram) are pwnmobiles of the highest caliber. Bar none. Arbitrator is a nice ship indeed, and the Curse and Pilgrim is super duper. But that donest change the fact that Amarr is horrible borked.
Tsun Lao	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Brother Tycho i think lasers are the problem with amarr ships they suck to much cap Correct. The fitting requirement is redicilous.
Tiny Carlos Destructive Influence	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:04:00 - [23] Originally by: hylleX Originally by: Jim McGregor Flying minnie ships, i cant say i respect lasers much. Crystals need more thermal damage its just stoopid right now. EAN + Any ship = Lasers crap, Minmatar ship + EAN = Is someone throwing stones at me? Stones would be kinetic damage, please stick to your lasers
Tsun Lao	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Tiny Carlos Originally by: hylleX Originally by: Jim McGregor Flying minnie ships, i cant say i respect lasers much. Crystals need more thermal damage its just stoopid right now. EAN + Any ship = Lasers crap, Minmatar ship + EAN = Is someone throwing stones at me? Stones would be kinetic damage, please stick to your lasers ahahah..........NO.
Gindar Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom R i s e	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:26:00 - [25] amarr? dying? no way! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=366067 the geddon is alive and well! the zealot with uber resists! and of course some of the best cruisers, recon covert ops and friggy pvp'ing this side of the caldari border zone amarr ftw although the pg and damage type issues are still there.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:29:00 - [26] I still have this inner image of the apoc and the machariel having sex from last weekend. Is that how ammatars are brought into this world btw? Amarr have pretty ships... minmatar have useful ones. Thats fair. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Brother Tycho Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Gindar amarr? dying? no way! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=366067 the geddon is alive and well! the zealot with uber resists! and of course some of the best cruisers, recon covert ops and friggy pvp'ing this side of the caldari border zone amarr ftw although the pg and damage type issues are still there. i have to disagree with the pvp frig comment our frigs are fine for PVE but it takes a fair skill gap to beat other races t2 frigs and top teirs in a stand up fight. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:35:00 - [28] Awww come on, We all know it's not Amarr being underpowered, it's everyone else being overpowered. Tank+lasers=negative cap! The majority of Amarr ships can't tank worth crap cos too much cap is required to shoot back. --
Morgat Harag Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.20 16:51:00 - [29] "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass." -- Liberty Network
Eternal Fury Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 17:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Tsun Lao Edited by: Tsun Lao on 20/07/2006 15:19:00 After some close observation I have come to the conclusion that Amarr is really struggeling. Not just by looking at PVP where Amarr usually draws the shortest straw, but also in terms of PVE (Raven ftw etc) Create a few alts, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar and see who has the fewest people in alliance chat. Amarr are loosig on all fronts, and I cant figure out why CCP isnt adressing this issue. Unless tux is the new ceo. This is actually standard fare for MMO's. You'll have one group who is on the bottom, with most in the middle and one slightly or more on top. The one on the bottom will be buffed up to just above the previous leader, and we'll have a new leader and a new bottom of the rung. Some MMO's do the reverse. They nerf the one on the top, moveing the 2nd place one into the top position. Give it time. Every racial ship set will have it's day. Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join?
Tsun Lao	Posted - 2006.07.20 17:30:00 - [31] Edited by: Tsun Lao on 20/07/2006 17:31:26 Originally by: Eternal Fury This is actually standard fare for MMO's. You'll have one group who is on the bottom, with most in the middle and one slightly or more on top. lol x 100. RMR hammered the last nail in the amarr coffin. Today Amarr is a joke. edit :Unless you are at 'medium range' witch is Amarrs optimal. Dont warp away when you are attacked at 38km. Keep in mind that geddon has to scramble you.
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.07.20 17:54:00 - [32] The only use i see for amarr ships is POS warfare... They get to leave their computers while their guns fire constantly while others have to pay attention to when their guns run out of ammo :P ---------------- Meet... bunneh:
RaThlan Naaoor	Posted - 2006.07.20 17:58:00 - [33] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 20/07/2006 17:07:03 The problem with the amarr race as a whole is that they're one-trick ponies, and even at what they CAN do, the other races can do the same thing just as well. Want to tank your Apoc? An armor tanked Tempest can do just as well, because your cap bonus is negated by laser cap usage. And a full shield tanked Raven is actually a better tank than you. Want to snipe? Huge powergrid problems caused by tachyons, beams still taking too much grid and without enough optimal to proprely compete with rails and artilleries. Want to do close range damage? Within 20km, where it really count, blasters and autocanons just pwn you. Outside 20km anything can get away from you before you kill it. Want to be imprevisible? You can't, unless you're ready to accept a high level of inefficiency compared to the others races. If CCP want players to invest time in amarr skills, some things must be boosted. For exemple: - Gamma cristal whose primary damage become either explosive or kinetic -> more variety for every amarr ships at last. - Some new Khanid pure missile boats. Option #3? Give a range bonus to web/scram/nos for amarr ships. Your option #2 is just the old "Let's make everyone the same...." - yuck.
Luc Boye Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.20 17:58:00 - [34] ofcoz its dying race, while their male grandpas go to church or whip their slaves, us virile gallentes are shagging amarr hotties.
DigitalCommunist Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.20 18:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 20/07/2006 17:07:03 The problem with the amarr race as a whole is that they're one-trick ponies, and even at what they CAN do, the other races can do the same thing just as well. Want to tank your Apoc? An armor tanked Tempest can do just as well, because your cap bonus is negated by laser cap usage. And a full shield tanked Raven is actually a better tank than you. Want to snipe? Huge powergrid problems caused by tachyons, beams still taking too much grid and without enough optimal to proprely compete with rails and artilleries. Want to do close range damage? Within 20km, where it really count, blasters and autocanons just pwn you. Outside 20km anything can get away from you before you kill it. Want to be imprevisible? You can't, unless you're ready to accept a high level of inefficiency compared to the others races. If CCP want players to invest time in amarr skills, some things must be boosted. For exemple: - Gamma cristal whose primary damage become either explosive or kinetic -> more variety for every amarr ships at last. - Some new Khanid pure missile boats. Sorry, try again. Tempest and Raven being better tanks than the Apoc is fiction. They can be more versatile in the short term, by having hardeners AND damage mods but thats about it. Amarr ships have always been about direct firepower, high DOT, and attrition through cap.. all of which remains true. If the flavour of the month junkies think they can make Amarr the new whine platform, think again. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Leilani Solaris Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 18:34:00 - [36] Ok quick example. Blasterthron vs Apoc. Say the blasterthron is using electrons, cap injector, dual reps, 2 mag stabs and a couple of EANM II's. Fairly standard setup and does a shed load of damage and tanks like hell. The apocs equivalent, mega pulses, cap injector maybe, 2 heatsinks, dual reps, and a couple of eanm II's, The blasterthron will tear the apoc a new one. Tried and tested many times. The thron is just going to laugh at you, shrugging off your EM and thermal damage while it rips you up. The main problem i see with lasers is that most ships come with a high EM/Thermal base resistance on armour, so add a couple of hardeners and getting through somethings armour can become a real pain. Also, the new boost to tachyons was good, but still tachyons and mega beams take up so much powergrid so by the time you get a rack of them fitted you have hardly any powergrid left to fit much else, even with the apocs high powergrid. And say you squeeze them on they're going to eat up your cap pretty damn quickly even with the bonuses on the ships to reduce the cap usage, especially with sustained firing, for example in a fleet fight. Only real bonus to pulse lasers imo is the quick RoF, which can easily be matched by blasters and autocannons which do more damage.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.07.20 18:51:00 - [37] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 20/07/2006 18:52:40 Rather then some random examples and useless 1v1 examples, how about some true stats ? In both BNC and Evol, two of the four corporations that make up BoB, tha apocalypse is the ship involved in the most kills as well as losses when it comes to battleships. In BNC's stats, the armageddon is not far off. In Evol's it's the megathron that comes close. That's from killmail data accumulated during the last year or so. Explain to me, there being about three times as many caldari and gallente pilots (combined) as there are amarr pilots in BoB (if you assume the population numbers at the time of the Jove bodypart event to still be somewhat reliable), how come the apoc takes the top spot in both BNC and Evol ? Old blog
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 18:57:00 - [38] Originally by: Leilani Solaris Ok quick example. Blasterthron vs Apoc. Say the blasterthron is using electrons, cap injector, dual reps, 2 mag stabs and a couple of EANM II's. Fairly standard setup and does a shed load of damage and tanks like hell. The apocs equivalent, mega pulses, cap injector maybe, 2 heatsinks, dual reps, and a couple of eanm II's, The blasterthron will tear the apoc a new one. Tried and tested many times. The thron is just going to laugh at you, shrugging off your EM and thermal damage while it rips you up. The main problem i see with lasers is that most ships come with a high EM/Thermal base resistance on armour, so add a couple of hardeners and getting through somethings armour can become a real pain. Also, the new boost to tachyons was good, but still tachyons and mega beams take up so much powergrid so by the time you get a rack of them fitted you have hardly any powergrid left to fit much else, even with the apocs high powergrid. And say you squeeze them on they're going to eat up your cap pretty damn quickly even with the bonuses on the ships to reduce the cap usage, especially with sustained firing, for example in a fleet fight. Only real bonus to pulse lasers imo is the quick RoF, which can easily be matched by blasters and autocannons which do more damage. Its not like the other races can beat a megathron very easily either. From what ive read on the forums, most ships gets a spanking unless having a specific setup to beat it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.20 19:17:00 - [39] The mega is the best close range ship(probably needs a nerf).But i would have more thermal based cystals.With more Them damage then EM.Mabye one with pure therm damage or with very little EM. When ever i see a amarr ship in my rupture i laugh and quickly engage.Unless of course its using prok >.<.Damn prophs! CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.20 19:21:00 - [40] average amarrian IQ has dropped to a point where they forgot how to reproduce properly let them die out in peace Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Cuebick Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 19:38:00 - [41] The Armageddon used to be the most fierce combat ship out there. It still is... and it represents hell unleashed.
tookar	Posted - 2006.07.20 19:51:00 - [42] On the bob killboard amarr bs are going to have ahigher killrate than any other bs as they are good for sniping and nothing else and bob have many fleet battles and pos wars which include a lot of sniping support at gates and general fleet sniping . Additionally i bet everytime there is a fleet battle the amarr pilots instapop them selves to wherever their nearest sniperpoc is and wet their pants for the chance to actually use the piece of crap for something useful in pvp .
Gift Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 19:59:00 - [43] I really just want to be able to deal another kind of damage. Em/therm for 3 years sux. LOOT's Website
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 20:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Gift I really just want to be able to deal another kind of damage. Em/therm for 3 years sux. Well, i want to do blasterthron damage in my Tempest... we cant all get what we want. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Arkanor Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 20:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Victor Vision Amarr is a dying race? I resent that statement, Sir. It's just... the air gets thin at the top Or in the case of most Amarrian men, the hair gets thin on the top Yeah seriously isn't there a "Holy Remedy" to that or something? Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees! Originally by: kieron rabble, Rabble, RABBLE,
Jim Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.20 20:47:00 - [46] Nerf EAN.. :) ------ I'll make a sig later.
Shadowsword Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 21:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 20/07/2006 18:52:40 Rather then some random examples and useless 1v1 examples, how about some true stats ? In both BNC and Evol, two of the four corporations that make up BoB, tha apocalypse is the ship involved in the most kills as well as losses when it comes to battleships. In BNC's stats, the armageddon is not far off. In Evol's it's the megathron that comes close. That's from killmail data accumulated during the last year or so. Explain to me, there being about three times as many caldari and gallente pilots (combined) as there are amarr pilots in BoB (if you assume the population numbers at the time of the Jove bodypart event to still be somewhat reliable), how come the apoc takes the top spot in both BNC and Evol ? I'd say it's in part related to where you live: you have blood raider NPCs, so Amarr BS are the best choice against them, and you also tend to use them for pvp, since you got the skills for them trained. For example, in Venal, we tend to use a really high number of megathrons. ------------------------------------------ Don't make War, War is messy. Make love instead, so your kids will do the War part for you.
Shadowsword Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 21:44:00 - [48] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Sorry, try again. Tempest and Raven being better tanks than the Apoc is fiction. They can be more versatile in the short term, by having hardeners AND damage mods but thats about it. Amarr ships have always been about direct firepower, high DOT, and attrition through cap.. all of which remains true. If the flavour of the month junkies think they can make Amarr the new whine platform, think again. Fact: With invulnerability fields II de-nerfed, shield tanked ships can reach a slightly higher average resistance than armor tankers. Fact: A shield tank with XL booster + Amp can boost faster than a dual large armor repairer can repair (with T2 stuff for both) Fact: With the shield compensation skill, shield tanking is more cap-efficient than armor tanking. Fact: natural shield regeneration give more than 20HP/sec at it's peak, with 3-4 PDU II in lows. Assumptions ( I will have to do some test to realy prove it, I don't have time now): Cap usage of mega pulses on Apoc more than negate the 25% faster cap recharge of it's bonus. Cap size difference between battleships too small to change much. An Apoc will tank blood raiders better than a shield tanker ever will, but that's about it. ------------------------------------------ Don't make War, War is messy. Make love instead, so your kids will do the War part for you.
Mtthias Clemi Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.20 21:49:00 - [49] Originally by: xeom The mega is the best close range ship(probably needs a nerf).But i would have more thermal based cystals.With more Them damage then EM.Mabye one with pure therm damage or with very little EM. When ever i see a amarr ship in my rupture i laugh and quickly engage.Unless of course its using prok >.<.Damn prophs! Megas dont need nerfing, ammar ships dont need buffing... in my opinion everything is fine the way it is.. Keep in mind to gain mazimum damage on a blasterthron you have to limit your ability to survive, lasers dont deal as much damage as blasters!! thats INSANE!! wait a minute... Ignore me, i know nothing
Treitei	Posted - 2006.07.20 21:56:00 - [50] Train Gallente/Minmatar for pvp. Train Caldari for pve. Problem solved
Scoundrelus The Black Fleet	Posted - 2006.07.20 23:54:00 - [51] CCP needs to put back those Explosive crystals. That would fix the problem. Frankly doing EM and Thermal damage is just crap. Makes you a laughable opponent unless you have a lot of SP in PvP skills. Amarr got two things going for them. Tank and Cap. Also saying "But they need no ammo!" is no longer the case since T2 Ammo depletes and thats all that we use for PvP unless fighting smaller ships due to the tracking kill on the ammo. ===============================================
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.07.21 00:35:00 - [52] Originally by: RaThlan Naaoor Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 20/07/2006 17:07:03 The problem with the amarr race as a whole is that they're one-trick ponies, and even at what they CAN do, the other races can do the same thing just as well. Want to tank your Apoc? An armor tanked Tempest can do just as well, because your cap bonus is negated by laser cap usage. And a full shield tanked Raven is actually a better tank than you. Want to snipe? Huge powergrid problems caused by tachyons, beams still taking too much grid and without enough optimal to proprely compete with rails and artilleries. Want to do close range damage? Within 20km, where it really count, blasters and autocanons just pwn you. Outside 20km anything can get away from you before you kill it. Want to be imprevisible? You can't, unless you're ready to accept a high level of inefficiency compared to the others races. If CCP want players to invest time in amarr skills, some things must be boosted. For exemple: - Gamma cristal whose primary damage become either explosive or kinetic -> more variety for every amarr ships at last. - Some new Khanid pure missile boats. Option #3? Give a range bonus to web/scram/nos for amarr ships. Your option #2 is just the old "Let's make everyone the same...." - yuck. What the alt said, I was going to settle for a range bonus on scrambling but these three spread over the amarr ships would help the stepchild in a harsh forboding world. Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Mortania Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.21 01:04:00 - [53] [roleplay] A-HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! DIE! Scumbags! [/roleplay]
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.21 01:15:00 - [54] Rodj is spot on. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Luc Boye Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.21 01:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 20/07/2006 18:52:40 Rather then some random examples and useless 1v1 examples, how about some true stats ? In both BNC and Evol, two of the four corporations that make up BoB, tha apocalypse is the ship involved in the most kills as well as losses when it comes to battleships. In BNC's stats, the armageddon is not far off. In Evol's it's the megathron that comes close. That's from killmail data accumulated during the last year or so. Explain to me, there being about three times as many caldari and gallente pilots (combined) as there are amarr pilots in BoB (if you assume the population numbers at the time of the Jove bodypart event to still be somewhat reliable), how come the apoc takes the top spot in both BNC and Evol ? I'd say it's in part related to where you live: you have blood raider NPCs, so Amarr BS are the best choice against them, and you also tend to use them for pvp, since you got the skills for them trained. For example, in Venal, we tend to use a really high number of megathrons. Nah man, back in GNW, the fleet would assemble, and it would be like 5 megathrons, few lost souls in tempests, and 30 apocs and geddons. Oh yeah, I think I remember someone flying a raven. Small hunting trips back then (before hacs and t2 guns) was maybe more ravens, due to torp uberness. And bazillion mallers and ruptures. So its nothing to do with regions, amarr ships are great for fleet fights.
Sae Marr Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.21 01:53:00 - [56] Amarr ships are not underpowered, rather, they are boring to fly. I attribute this mostly to lack mids and specifics of pulse lasers. There are a few exceptions like the Arbitrator family and the Absolution, which is a battleship masquerading as a bc Contrary to the popular opinion, I think Amarr need more good Khanid designs (think the Curse, not the Sacrilege), which will give amarr purists a more varied range of fitting options, tactics and, of course, fun. -
Kata Dakini	Posted - 2006.07.21 02:00:00 - [57] I think the biggest problem is that many players either don't understand what their role should be or they don't want to play that role. Everyone wants to be the hero, while nobody wants to be the unsung hero. Amarrians are unsung heroes. ___ "And I don't feel any more guilty about liking baseball more than soccer than I do about not using the metric system or speaking Italian or owning an ABBA album." -Jim Caple
Azmodaus Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.21 02:09:00 - [58] Edited by: Azmodaus on 21/07/2006 02:10:17 Originally by: Luc Boye Nah man, back in GNW, the fleet would assemble, and it would be like 5 megathrons, few lost souls in tempests, and 30 apocs and geddons. Oh yeah, I think I remember someone flying a raven. Small hunting trips back then (before hacs and t2 guns) was maybe more ravens, due to torp uberness. And bazillion mallers and ruptures. So its nothing to do with regions, amarr ships are great for fleet fights. The GNW was a looooooooong time ago my friend, 3 years is a long time. Lots of things have changed in that time. For example, ships with boosted base armor resists (T2 ships, Battlecruisers, AF's. T2 ammo and guns that do significantly more damage, buffed passive hardeners and drones. Alot has changed so I don't feel your statement is really valid anymore. The Amarr has some fine ships, but they tend to be lacking in the solo pvp area unlike the other races. They need a gang to be effective in my opinion. In my opinion the main problem with Amarr ships is their lack of mid slots. Their AF's are a joke because of this, one has ONE mid slot . Their crusader has the same issue, its really hard to do your inty thang with 2 mids. Their cruisers suffer from the same thing, omen and maller have 3 which is **** poor compaired to the other races. The mid slot issue is also the biggest concern for the once mighty armageddon, 3 mid slots doesn't lend well to versitility and makes it a hard ship to fit. Three years ago Amarr was the king of the hill, now they are not. They do need some luvin, most notably in the mid slots and damage department.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.21 03:11:00 - [59] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/07/2006 03:12:12 Amarr dont need more midslots. They just need people to fly them as what they are instead of trying to make them something they are not. The retri does its job just fine, any interceptor absolutely has to deal with it first if it wants to have a chance of tackling something more important, the crusader loses in dogfights only due to lacking the ability to fight at crow and ranis ranges more than from only 2 midslots, and is able to achieve lovely DPS and speed. The omen has the DPS of ships twice its cost. The maller tanks better than just about anything else in the cruiser department, which is both a blessing and a curse, and the arbitrator supplies versitility. I have even found PvP uses for the Auggie, though very limited ones. The geddon is an absolutely lovely fleet gunboat. The apoc doesnt have its DPS, but can both kill and tank. Now there are some places where the Amarrian role of heavy tanking gunboat on its primary battlewagons does not quite work, primarily the issue of how hard it is to fit beams, but it does the role it is designed for quite well. The amarrian ships support eachother and play to the roles they are designed to work in. I wouldnt argue against a boost to a few things, the idea of a third damage type for lasers has always appealed to me and beam fitting requirements are a problem, but with the exception of ships in a support role, Amarrian ships are meant to be heavily armored gunboats... and any suggestion about improving them should reflect that instead of asking for more curses. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Abye Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.21 03:24:00 - [60] Amarrians won't die out, their women have sexy cheeks so men will be after them and they'll keep breeding.
Zikke Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.21 06:28:00 - [61] FOTM -------- Get over it. (TM)
Noriath	Posted - 2006.07.21 06:44:00 - [62] Caldari are FOTLTY ... Flavour of the last two years. Anyways, it's not about the ships, the fact that our race really has no effect on your character other then his looks and base stats makes absoloutly nothing about making an amarr character good. Amarrians look stupid and have bad stats, and if their ships were really great you'd still just see tons of Caldari flying around in them. I think every bloodline should get a few archetypes that you can choose from that refelect various backgrounds that that races pod pilots usually have. That background would give your character like a one time 5-10% bonus to something that you simply cannot get without being that race/bloodline combination from the start. If they gave some good ones to the less popular races there might just be a little more even distribution across the board...
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.07.21 08:41:00 - [63] No one mentions the absolution? That is one hellova ship. Talk about a great PvP platform.
Akkarin Pagan	Posted - 2006.07.21 09:12:00 - [64] My understanding of how the Amarrians are supposed to fight is that they outlast their opponent by having more tankability than anyone else, which makes up for a lack of damage dealt. The thought of lasers doing damage apart from em and thermal frankly horrifies the physicist in me (how can focused beams of light (em energy) cause kinetic (physically striking something) and explosive damage (does what it says on the tin)?). Also it terrifies teh Minmatar pilot in me (what use is my 70% base em resist good for if all the amarrians are dealing other damage types???) In the interests of balance (whether it is needed or not) and in keeping with what the Amarr are and do, would an increase in the damage dealt (while keeping the damage types the same), an increase of ship armour amounts, and a reduction in laser cap usage not be a better solution, rather than demanding a 3rd damage type. Atm, only the Minmatar can deal 3 types of damage from one gun, and the Caldari missile boats get to choose their damage types. Rail / blaster boats are stuck doing thermal and kinetic damage, and not many people flying those demand the ability to do explosive damage (admittedly kinetic is more usefull than em in most situations). Maybe another part of the solution is to stick a missile point or 2 on the existing Amarr ships to allow extra damage types (You would have thought that the empires ship builsers after being exposed to the other 4 races would have realised by now that em and therm are not the best combination for killing other ships) Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling now. Akkarin
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.07.21 09:12:00 - [65] For NPCing nothing beats the armageddon for hunting bloods, raven doesnt even come close for that. I also love my geddon when it comes to damage. With 7 tachy II's and 4 DB heatsinks i can put over 10,000 raw damage into something within 5 seconds of getting a lock at up to 50km and maintain over 1000dmg/s for a while. But thats about all i use that character for because the rest of the ships arent that great for PvP or anything else.
Shadowsword Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.21 11:07:00 - [66] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan The thought of lasers doing damage apart from em and thermal frankly horrifies the physicist in me (how can focused beams of light (em energy) cause kinetic (physically striking something) and explosive damage (does what it says on the tin)?). Also it terrifies teh Minmatar pilot in me (what use is my 70% base em resist good for if all the amarrians are dealing other damage types???) If you want to use real life physics in a game, then there's only 2 damage types: Radiations (EM and thermal) and Kinetic. Explosive is just a mix of kinetic (schrapnels) and thermal radiations. Now, about lasers, if it hit somethings, it melt. but if the energy transfer is brutal enough, the targeted point of impact doesn't have time ot melt, it vaporize ->sudden expansion of volume->explosion. A third damage type for lasers would be nice, both for variety, the one thing Amarr lack most, and to give them a fighting chance against some ships (armor tanked Minnie HAS come to mind). It would be overpowered (would it, really?) if they could do their max DPS with, for exemple, Kinetic and thermal, but if the lense doing those damage aren't on par with multifreq cristals, that mean less raw damage to pay for your third damage type->not overpowered. ------------------------------------------ Don't make War, War is messy. Make love instead, so your kids will do the War part for you.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.21 11:30:00 - [67] I don't agree to the third damage type. The EM/Thermal is enough and the DPS is good for any Amarr ship. The real problem is that the lasers use so much cap that you are really hard pressed to tank at the same time. Yes, the Apoc is a great tanker and I'd argue with anyone who says otherwise. The problem is that it's a great tanker - as long as it doesn't fire back. The minute you activate any energy weapon, you say goodbye to your cap in very short order and then sit back and watch while your tank just crumbles. The same goes for the Prophecy, it has very little durability in it's tank. If it can't deal enough damage to take out the other ship quickly, it can't tank long enough to make a fight of it. With the armour reppers boosting less armour than shield boosters can do, it puts an armour tanker at a bigger disadvantage anyway. Add the high cap use for armour reppers and armour tankers are already gimped for cap, having high cap use for weapons as well deals a double blow. In the end, it needs less cap use for weapons or a faster cap regen rate or more damage to make Amarr ships useful again. I'd prefer the faster cap regen since it would be the tradeoff for the high weapon cap usage. --
Splagada Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.21 11:49:00 - [68] Originally by: turnschuh DIE AMARRS DIE - evemail me if you need a free forum for your corp
Zanon Xiu	Posted - 2006.07.21 11:50:00 - [69] wtf?? damn ammarians have the best empire non barge mining ship. its that damn sexy apoc ^^
Deadzone Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.21 17:46:00 - [70] The common theme here is that the cap usage AND PG reqs for lasers is still too high. The other common theme is...only 2 types of dmg, which most ships have a naturally higher resistance to. Armour wise anyways. I will have to absolutly agree with the first one. Cap usage and PG fitting needs yet another nerf. No two ways about it. As for the second part, not sure on this one yet. If lasers can't get a third dmg type then the dmg amount the CAN do needs to be raised. Vice-Admiral Military Division Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories
Aerykah Malegant Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2006.07.21 18:08:00 - [71] Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing wrong with Amarr that a new Emperor and lower PG reqs on beam lasers won't sort out. Amen, Brother.
smoogie	Posted - 2006.07.21 18:09:00 - [72] A simply fix would be giving all laser-using amarr ships a "special bonus" similar to sansha ships, but slightly worse, eg. -40%. For example, the Omen would have a flat "-40% Medium-sized laser cap usage" special bonus with a +5% dmg and -5% rof per level as regular bonuses. Similarly for the geddon. The maller could also have -40% cap usage of lasers with +10% armor hp and +5% resistances per level. Similarly for the Punisher and Prophecy. The apoc would have the standard -40% bonus, plus level +5% laser dmg and +5% cap per level. This would be an effective 20-25% increase in laser damage with slightly worse cap usage than right now. Worse cap usage means you need to fit a cap mod to reach the same sustainbility as before instead of a dmg mod.
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.21 18:34:00 - [73] Originally by: Noriath I think every bloodline should get a few archetypes that you can choose from that refelect various backgrounds that that races pod pilots usually have. That background would give your character like a one time 5-10% bonus to something that you simply cannot get without being that race/bloodline combination from the start. Absolutly not, one of eves greatest strenghts are the fact that you are only limited by you skills that you train. Yes I am a caldari pilot, but I picked my race purely by the race description nothing else. I also fly mostly Gal ships. I also remember a thread when pulse lasers were the flavour o the month it was suggested that ammar be given some more missiles to deal with the em/thermal damage type and what was the otcome of that thread? Ammar pilots screaming about having to train other weapon systems. You have drone bays that gives you the option to add other damage types to your ships...use it. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self

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