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Jenni LaCroix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
   |
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am trying to understand the logic here of the many eve players that believe ISK has a monetary value, but first, my two cents.
1. Once the game is downloaded, players that really know their thing and that are very dedicated to play this game, have ways to play any way they like, without paying for accounts nor any pixel item in-game using RL money in terms of PLEX.
Question: Such a person loses let's say a carrier, so why would that person now lose real life money? He did not spend one cent on it and that person chose to play eve of his or her free will, so the time invested is also not worth real money.
2. PLEX is bought with RL money to get ISK. But you cannot turn ISK into RL money.
Question: Why is something that only benefits one organization (CCP), worth RL money to everyone?
3. Everything you have in Eve, your character, your ships, everything, belongs to CCP. They can do what they want with it (surely, wrong actions will cause people to leave the game, but perhaps they could become so filth rich and troll all, who knows hehe, but this is not the point).
Question: Why do people still think that ISK still has a RL value in that regard? Buying isk is basically giving money to CCP while the pixel items you get for it still don't belong to you but to CCP, so you give them money to be able to use some of their pixel items.
How can you lose the money you give them anyway to begin with when you lose an in-game pixel item that is already theirs?
I understand that when people are dependent on buying PLEX to play the game to its full potential, for many reasons such as: not enough free time, too much work, too lazy to spend the extra time, to them this could have a real value, but why do all adopt suddenly that for all eve players, ISK can be related to real life monetary value?
One of the main arguments could surely be the whole time investment, although you play eve kind of as a luxury. You do not need it technically in terms of surviving biologically, although I can already foresee the people say "Eve is life" etc, and I am sure it is for many :), but the point is, even if you compare how many hours you spend playing it, and the rate you could make isk in that time, the point still is that you chose to play eve out of free will but you do not need it to survive. You can see it as entertainment, a luxury, depending on where you are from, but I am curious to read why people think eve has or has no real life monetary value.
No trolls on this one please.
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Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan
441
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jenni LaCroix wrote:
No trolls on this one please.
aye aggry
troles shuld staye awey frum this poast as it are vrey improtantt thart this subjeck bee disgust
"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
10988
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
It depends on the context. When news outlets report "$300,000 worth of stuff destroyed in EVE Online batlte" it helps with giving a perspective on the effort that went into building the sandcastles that were mercilessly kicked down.
EVE is ultimately a video game, of course. All the time you sink into it is worth as much as the time you spend watching TV or playing games. It's an entertaining social activity, nothing more.
Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
-á-á - Abrazzar |
Lady Areola Fappington
2150
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Simply put, people like to break things down into units of measure that are widely known and easy to understand.
It's also helpful when talking EVE to a non-EVE crowd. "A 50billion ISK ship exploded" vs. "A $500 ship exploded!" (use your own currency of course)
Kentucky Derby losers are not turned into Ikea meatballs.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev did not accidentally blow up vowels in his own name.
The chupacabra does not deliver presents on Cinco De Mayo.
Anytime minutes donGÇÖt let you call the future. |
Effect One
Vengeful Swan
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Although you briefly touch upon it, I think you seriously underestimate the personal worth players of any persistent world attach to 'their' ingame posessions based upon general market 'worth' and how much effort it took them to obtain. Eve having a system of ultimate loss rather than, for instance, a corpse walk to pick up your stuff after you have died, only serves to accentuate this.
If you lose your ship in Eve you may not be losing something you 'technically' owned, but you do lose something that for all practical purposes in game you did own and, most likely, spent some amount of time attaining.
Any argument that seeks to negate those two factors as a means to objectively devalue real world item worth simply doesn't take into account the human condition, in my opinion. People naturally attach worth to things they own or perceive to own, regardless of how they obtained said items and even more so when effort was required to obtain them, regardless of the activity being carried out.
cba |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4222
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Andski wrote:It depends on the context. When news outlets report "$300,000 worth of stuff destroyed in EVE Online batlte" it helps with giving a perspective on the effort that went into building the sandcastles that were mercilessly kicked down.
EVE is ultimately a video game, of course. All the time you sink into it is worth as much as the time you spend watching TV or playing games. It's an entertaining social activity, nothing more.
When you put it that way, it makes you wonder how much they're really worth when you consider that time is the greater investment. If it costs $15 a month to sub, provided you're not plexing, and a ship takes two months of time to build, can it be considered a $30 ship provided that 2 months is devoted entirely to gathering the resources and building the necessary infrastructure and fittings etc as well? Perhaps it would be a more accurate way of valuing stuff destroyed in game rather than comparing it to the price of plex. Perhaps not. It's worth thinking on though - there is more time invested in everything in this game than cash.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
631
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
It puts things in perspective and is obviously also good publicity, ships destroyed in value of xxx thousand dollar, means if u would have to buy those in game through tunring plex into isk it would cost so much.
Xxx thiusand of work hours destroyed doesnt make a great headline nor is catchy.
Money is is a one way land, the other way is called rmt and is hot news as always and also illegal |
erg cz
Sliperer
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
This |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
2366
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Digital goods have an intrinsic value the same as other types of goods. And when you consider that the definition of currency is nothing more or less than a medium of exchange, the digital transactions of such goods has a very real impact. PLEX is sometimes said to have a real-life value, but I'd say that's only partially true. As you said, CCP essentially owns the goods once you've purchased them since it is a one-way exchange, and there is no exchange rate (which would be RMT). That said, the effort people go to in order to get the isk they've made, or the effort to get the money to buy PLEX, gives a certain value to the items. Ultimately though, I think it has to be said that the wealth you amass within Eve has no real-world economic value, although it certainly does have sentimental value. |
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
370
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
There's a saying in business:
"Time is money" |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
1855
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think I read someplace that the avg EVE player has around 1 Billion ISK in cash.
That means that if you're plexing your account, you have barely enough to buy a plex in Jita. If you lose, say, a 500 M ship, you may have to shell out 15$ RL cash to sub your account that month.
If you're subbing your account with cash and don't have that much time to grind ISK, and you lose a couple 500 M ships, you may have to shell out 20$ RL cash to buy a plex and sell it in Jita to replenish your ISK wallet.
To sum it up, for the avg EVE player, losing stuff for 500M or a Billion or two can have a very real impact on your RL wallet. So yeah, you're pretty much aware of the $ value of ISK.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan
443
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yarda Black wrote:There's a saying in business:
"Time is money"
"...frend"
"fine nest wires in all teh larnd"
"wats happenin"
"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal |
Jenni LaCroix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yarda Black wrote:There's a saying in business:
"Time is money"
I disagree with this as I mentioned in my example relating to this topic. If you do something out of free will in your spare time, that has no monetary value. If I go to the cinema on my free time I can't say that I lost money because of it because I could not work for 4 hours for example. It was your choice and free will to go to the cinemas. |
Grunanca
Doughboys
Overload Everything
295
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Short answer:
Because buying a plex is a choice and while a plex in itself is not worth real money, someone at some point did the choice of spending money on the plex, hence why the plex now has a real life value.
With the ability to chose to buy a plex or keep the real money, comes the ability to compare shiplosses to what you could have bought in real instead. |
Jenni LaCroix
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:Short answer:
Because buying a plex is a choice and while a plex in itself is not worth real money, someone at some point did the choice of spending money on the plex, hence why the plex now has a real life value.
With the ability to chose to buy a plex or keep the real money, comes the ability to compare shiplosses to what you could have bought in real instead.
Well, to that person as I suggested it might then have a value, correct, but what if you are the player that never spent one cent on any PLEX, and you lose over a one year time span let's say 5 bio isk, did you lose physical money then too? |
Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan
444
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jenni LaCroix wrote: bio isk
i tri two pay fore things with bio isk ale teh time
butt thei chace me owt of the shoppe
an call me a filthee beest
"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal |
Effect One
Vengeful Swan
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jenni LaCroix wrote:Yarda Black wrote:There's a saying in business:
"Time is money" I disagree with this as I mentioned in my example relating to this topic. If you do something out of free will in your spare time, that has no monetary value. If I go to the cinema on my free time I can't say that I lost money because of it because I could not work for 4 hours for example. It was your choice and free will to go to the cinemas.
I think most economists would vehemently disagree with you there. It also makes no sense; time doesn't simply become worthless because you're partaking in an activity that you happen to enjoy. On the contrary the very fact that you have made a conscious decision to do one thing rather than another means that it has an intrinsic value to you, whether you choose to acknowledge that value or not, otherwise your decision would have no meaning.
A lot of economists would argue that whether you attach direct value or not to the time you choose to use in order to do something (such as the cinema, in your example), the act of simply going prevents you from doing something else. You have therefore lost out regardless of the decision you made because you could be doing something else. The popular phrase 'there's no such thing as a free lunch' is often used to demonstrate this principle.
cba |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
365
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Of course ISK has real-life value! What do you think the Devs are paid in? Hugs?
*wonders how many CCP Falcons can be hired at a rate of 10hugs/hour*
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
1561
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Everythgin you can buy with money or Time has a real life value. Is daydreaming anyone that believe otherwise.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4059
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
relivant
=][= |
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well, considering one plex costs $19.99 or 800m ISK. I don't know where real life money can be convered into isk.
28x Plex for $489.99 valued at 22.4 billion ISK.
Now the ISK per $1 is lower than that, but the above are he straight conversions with current sell order value and buying directly from the Eve Online site. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1260
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 10:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Blatant misrepresentation in most of the public press, to answer the question of your thread name.
Didn't read the other stuff.
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
298
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 10:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
It's fairly simple to put RL currency value to PLEX since you paid 14Gé¼ for it, obviously you can't exchange that plex back to Gé¼ (legally that is) but it doesn't stop people from pretending they could.
Since PLEX prices fluctuate from time to it's easier to count value to things through plex prices because that ratio stays constant unlike ISK to effort ratio which is also dependant on personal opinions.
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Arla Sarain
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 10:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
I never believed in the "you can play this game for free" interpretation.
No one plays this game for free - someone else pays for you and you agree to reward them with ingame money for their generosity.
ISK has real life money value because it is traded as such and the conversion rate is defined by players. If PLEX is in demand, then clearly it has value, no? The most fundamental way to obtain PLEX is to spend RL money on it.
PLEX is kinda like RMT, though what you trade ISK for isn't real money, it's an item that has real-life value. Hence ISK has real life money value.
Maybe I am wrong, but that's how it makes sense to me. |
stup idity
71
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 10:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Baneken wrote:It's fairly simple to put RL currency value to PLEX since you paid 14Gé¼ for it, obviously you can't exchange that plex back to Gé¼ (legally that is) but it doesn't stop people from pretending they could.
Isk has real money value as soon - and also only as long as - you can spend Isk instead of real money to buy something, mostly game time or maybe the collectors edition.
Based on this, being space rich (quite unspecific) has a very specific value when you safe real money for your subscriptions (or other stuff). This worth has of course an upper limit, because there are only so many accounts you can use in a meaningful manner and plexing more than 10 years in advance might be a little too optimistic.
I am the Herald of all beings that are me. |
Solecist Project
Mew Age Outpaws
5628
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
1. It's good marketing, because
2. too many people think high values of money have substance and indicate depth where there is none.
http://residentoutlaw.tumblr.com - CODE, RvB, the AT, and what DJEntropy said .... :)
The Mew Age Calender is in need of models! Plus payment!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4908292#post4908292 |
wiskyjack
Retribution Corp.
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
I can buy ISK any time I want.
Step 1 go to bank
Step 2 change euros for Icelandic krona (ISK)
Step 3 role around in the millions of ISK I get thanks Ito inflation
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dark heartt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
507
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm really trying hard here to think of any Eve player I know who legitimately thinks that ISK has a real life money value, but so far I'm coming up blank. It's my experience that people who actually think that don't play the game and get their information from media who like to use phrases like "Huge Eve Online battle destroys $570,000 worth of spaceships" (that was an actual title from the B-R fight in January) in order to draw views.
I recall being in a twitch stream unrelated to Eve, and people in there were talking about how they thought Eve players were crazy for spending so much money on the game. Fortunately the stream was small so I was able to inform them of the truth.
So to directly answer your question, ISK has no real life value. However we can work out how much it would cost to buy ISK with PLEX, so we can give things a real money value to show how much a virtual item would cost in real money if we were to buy it by selling PLEX that we bought with RL money.
Bienator II:
"You can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."
I play in highsec. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7711
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Simply put, people like to break things down into units of measure that are widely known and easy to understand.
It's also helpful when talking EVE to a non-EVE crowd. "A 50billion ISK ship exploded" vs. "A $500 ship exploded!" (use your own currency of course)
This/ |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
386
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Simply put, people like to exaggerate their significance ('cause we're all really lost in this HUGE crowd) so they light up on units of measure to create the impression something they're involved in is worth far more than it actually is. For instance:
It took me 40 hours of steady farming to come up with the ISK to buy and outfit that Capital ship. Since my time is worth roughly $10,416 a week (from a net income of $500,000.00 per year) then the cash value of that ship and fittings is undoubtedly $10,416. Fortunately, EVE doesn't have a Blue Book so the value doesn't depreciate over time!
At the same time, understand, certain countries have industries based largely on farming in-game currencies for all the major games which can be purchased illegally (and counter to your ToS). The CEO of one gaming corporation, NetMarble, was actually arrested by the Korean police for doing just this, not long ago.
There was also a case not too long ago of a group of kids who went to another kid's house, tied him to a chair in front of his computer, and at knife point forced him to log a World of Warcraft character and drop a weapon, so another kid could pick it up. The court that adjudicated that case indeed said in-game objects and material can be said to have an actual cash value, especially with regard to law enforcement.
SO....guess again.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
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