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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 24/07/2006 22:02:58
edit: spelling
deimos seems too be the last choice of the hacs
am i wrong?
doesn't need it a little help?
it's a closerange ship, maybe a speed bonus, or a low slot, don't know
what do you think about giving deimos some help?
thx, bye
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:03:00 -
[2]
Lower mass, maybe slightly better fitting.
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lofty29
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:03:00 -
[3]
TBH, the diemos is fine. All the other HAC's are overpowered 
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 Originally by: HippoKing
...I suck at forums 
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Cuisinart
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zemeckis R
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 24/07/2006 22:02:58
edit: spelling
deimos seems too be the last choice of the hacs
am i wrong?
Er yes... ever hear of the Sacrilige?
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:05:00 -
[5]
i know the problems about the sacrilege... but we are talking about the deimos here
make another thread about sacri if you want!
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Cuisinart
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:06:00 -
[6]
You asked.
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Greystar
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:11:00 -
[7]
The Demios is supposed to be the super fast, in close damaage dealer and the reason ppl dont use it is because everything it is supposed to do, the Vagabond can do better...
Why use a Demios when you can use a Vagabond that goes MUCH faster and uses no cap for its weapons so its pretty much immune to NOS and still has a decent tank.
(2 X LSE II =7k shields)
terrorist, ingame to |
Stuart Price
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:18:00 -
[8]
I've flown Deimos and Eagle and FAR prefer the Eagle for it's superior versatility and the fact that it's easier to fit.
I managed a full rack of 250's and two heavies with a pretty mostrous tank all easily within grid and cpu. If I was to put a full rack of neut's on the Deimos it's other mods would be horribly, horribly gimped. With ions it gets a lot easier, but why be reduced to that when I can fit the Eagle with its biggest guns?
And also, on a personal note, it's just much funnier to snipe frigs out at utterly obscene ranges before they know what the hell is going on. Mission are much easier in the Eagle too.
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Streetrip
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 00:11:00 -
[9]
It needs to fit Neutron IIs and have one hi-slot turned into a mid-slot or another turret
That about puts it into the same field as the rest of the HACs (except the sacri of course :P)
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Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.07.25 01:52:00 -
[10]
The muninn is still pretty poor too 
The deimos gets used a fair bit in gangs. It does uber damage, but needs support.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Ishmael Hansen
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Posted - 2006.07.25 03:07:00 -
[11]
I vaguely remember the deimos being the flavour of the month way back when, did it got nerfed or did people start to know how to kill them?
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Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.07.25 03:22:00 -
[12]
Well personally I think the biggest problem with the Deimos is the Thorax's MWD bonus. I personally feel it should be changed to a 10% per gallente cruiser level and the description needs to be changed to represent the actual stat change, increases cap by x% when fitting a MWD. This change should apply to both the Thorax and Deimos.
The ship also suffers from a high base sig, low agility, and rather low base speed that are all rather detrimental to the intended role of the ship. The ship needs a minor sig reductions, needs a mass reduction, and it needs to have its base speed increased by 10 or 20 m/s.
I do not think the ship needs any changes of any sort to fitting. If you want to field a decent tank use electrons, med nos, passive resistance modules and a med rep. Even with electrons and a single damage mod the ship does insane amounts of dps, It is completely unreasonable to ask that the ship be able to field ions or nuetrons with a decent tank.
My .2 iskies
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Directive
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:22:00 -
[13]
Bit more base speed, bit less mass and a slight powergrid upgrade would be nice.
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Wintermoon
Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Well personally I think the biggest problem with the Deimos is the Thorax's MWD bonus. I personally feel it should be changed to a 10% per gallente cruiser level and the description needs to be changed to represent the actual stat change, increases cap by x% when fitting a MWD. This change should apply to both the Thorax and Deimos.
I agree agree agree and agree!
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
The ship also suffers from a high base sig, low agility, and rather low base speed that are all rather detrimental to the intended role of the ship. The ship needs a minor sig reductions, needs a mass reduction, and it needs to have its base speed increased by 10 or 20 m/s.
The base speed should match the thorax's base speed at the bare minimum. Sig radius too.
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
I do not think the ship needs any changes of any sort to fitting. If you want to field a decent tank use electrons, med nos, passive resistance modules and a med rep. Even with electrons and a single damage mod the ship does insane amounts of dps, It is completely unreasonable to ask that the ship be able to field ions or nuetrons with a decent tank.
If they reduce the fitting on the zealot so it can't fit a tank along with a full rack of heavy pulses then I agree.
(Same goes for all the other HACs out there).
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Wolverine PL
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:48:00 -
[15]
Problem with deimos is ... speed. It has lowest range and ... lowest speed:(
Look at vagabond, main weapon is .. Autocannons which are close range but vaga is 4x faster then deimos and have falloff much bigger, so deimos vs vaga = vaga wins.
Generally most hac can keep deimos out of it range. Deimos
need some speed bonus. Some slight PG boost would be nice too:P
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Gee'Kin
Tha Specialz
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:18:00 -
[16]
looks fantastic , poor performance in overal. I wish the deimos would be more flex in fitting.
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Plz tickle my brain. I wanna have a Brainfart !
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Well personally I think the biggest problem with the Deimos is the Thorax's MWD bonus. I personally feel it should be changed to a 10% per gallente cruiser level and the description needs to be changed to represent the actual stat change, increases cap by x% when fitting a MWD. This change should apply to both the Thorax and Deimos.
Umm, but that isn't the actual stat change.
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Deviana Sevidon
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:32:00 -
[18]
In a Thread some weeks ago, Tuxford said he would look into the fitting requirements of the Deimos. No word from him afterwards.
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Yarek Balear
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:34:00 -
[19]
As the poster above said... speed boost is a must... All the talk of increased PG or increased flexibility is noise imo. If you increased the speed to be closer to the vaga (but not quite as quick, I am realistic) then complaints would all go away and people (me included) would fly the Deimos once more...
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Ross Ice
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:44:00 -
[20]
There are 3 main reasons the deimos sux atm:
- MWD bonus not really a bonus (you still get -6.25% cap penalty)
- Deimos has 3 meds while it needs 4 med-slots to fit the pretty much mandatory MWD, Web, scrambler, cap injector (all blaster boats badly need the injector to run the rep(s), MWD and blasters which are all very, very cap hungry)
- Deimos (T2) is slower than the thorax (T1)
Solutions:
- Raise its speed to be higher or at least same as the thorax
- Turn 1 Hi-slot into a med slot
- Remove the stupid MWD bonus and turn it into a 3rd dmg bonus (deimos is beaten at its own game, short range, by a blaster-eagle, or AC-vaga) or at least raise it to 10% per lvl to give additional cap (like the vindi).
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Gariuys
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 08:54:00 -
[21]
Don't touch that 6th high.... that 6th high is extremely nice, and deimos doesn't need cap injector. It's problem is mass, agility. nothing else.
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Ross Ice
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 09:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gariuys
Don't touch that 6th high.... that 6th high is extremely nice, and deimos doesn't need cap injector. It's problem is mass, agility. nothing else.
Disagree, not on the 6th slot thingy (its personal preference to fit a nos or an injector), but its problem is not only mass and agility..
It's base speed is lower than a thorax, the MWD bonus is not really a bonus just a reduction (not even a removal) of a penalty and PG-wise it has problems since MWD, blasters, Nos/injector and MAR all take alot of PG, compared to the vaga (which does its only big PG investment with the MWD) relatively seen it has problems.
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Directive
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gariuys
Don't touch that 6th high.... that 6th high is extremely nice, and deimos doesn't need cap injector. It's problem is mass, agility. nothing else.
The base powergrid is problematic too, since Deimos is getting around 5% more pg over Thorax (Ishtar gets ~4%), while rest of the HACs get ~10-50% more pg over their Tech1 versions.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:42:00 -
[24]
I dont think gallente needs any more pwnmobiles tbh...im sure you can live with 1 bad ship. Try flying amarr/minmatar, then its the other way around.. you are happy to find 1 good ship instead. 
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Umm, but that isn't the actual stat change.
Yes it is... The MWD subtracts 25% max cap from the ship, the thorax's ship bonuss then increases cap by 25% only when a mwd is fitted. Quick fit lies, you will have 93.75% of your original cap when fitting a MWD and cruiser skill at 5.
Not at a computer that can shrink files sizes for the web at the moment however I will post screen within a couple of hours.
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Techyon
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:52:00 -
[26]
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Gariuys
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:07:00 -
[27]
It's tight on the grid agreed, but CPU is pretty much okay now. And don't really c powergrid fitting trouble as too big a issue... would need a 15% increase to really matter ( frees up a low slot in a ion+nos+mwd+mar fitting ) otherwise it doesn't really change much. And I doubt we'll see a 15% grid increase anytime soon.
Base speed should be low, it should be fast running the mwd, low base speed when not using a mwd is perfectly fine IMO, and a nice balancing factor if used as something else then a blasterboat.
20% cap increase is a very real bonus. the way you get is a bit strange perhaps and it could stand to be a bit higher cause it's a relatively weak bonus and only applies when fitting a mwd. But it's still a bonus.
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Gariuys
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:10:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Directive
Originally by: Gariuys
Don't touch that 6th high.... that 6th high is extremely nice, and deimos doesn't need cap injector. It's problem is mass, agility. nothing else.
The base powergrid is problematic too, since Deimos is getting around 5% more pg over Thorax (Ishtar gets ~4%), while rest of the HACs get ~10-50% more pg over their Tech1 versions.
While I would love to see a 15% powergrid increase on her, I don't really think that that is what's stopping the deimos from being really effective at short range.
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Techyon
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:11:00 -
[29]
Jim that's the most flawed argumentation ever and you know it :P
This obviously is another thread for the Deimos, and the Deimos deserves it. Its such a nice ship that is unfortunately unable to really deliver in pvp. The Deimos flies like a brick and to make it even worse, it can't really use Neutron blasters like it should to atleast get some range as a compensation for its terrible flying properties. Its too slow, its not agile enough and it could do with more PG for sure.
The blaster 'fix' was nice but it did close to nothing for the Deimos. Neutron setups are still not viable seeing as you're not even capable of fitting 5x neutron + mwd without RCU... and thats not even thinking about filling other slots. I'm not asking for a hard tank + mwd + neutrons but atleast neutrons + mwd and auxilliary mods without a RCU would be... nice 
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Gariuys
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I dont think gallente needs any more pwnmobiles tbh...im sure you can live with 1 bad ship. Try flying amarr/minmatar, then its the other way around.. you are happy to find 1 good ship instead.
Bull and completely unrelated in any case. Ishtar needs to be reduced in power some, but not much, and perhaps not at all once EW gets another look at, cause it just falls into the category of ships that are so good cause of their EW abilities. Others are pretty much fine.
Just talking about the HACs btw. Other ships I don't really care about.
Astarte is lovely btw.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:18:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Techyon
Jim that's the most flawed argumentation ever and you know it :P
I have to admit I do. 
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:24:00 -
[32]
Deimos >>> Vagabond
The problem is that deimos does not have enough med slots to keep vagabond pilot from running, so the solution might be to introduce another 3 med slots for deimos that can only be used for warp scramblers. Or to nerf wcs but that is a different topic.
Anyway, deimos is one mean damage-dealing machine. Not as versatile as ishtar, not as good at runnig like vagabond (best running ship around), not as good at sniping as eagle but at close range it's to be feared.
It suffers from large nosing but so does any hac.
There is nothing wrong with deimos except his price tag... but that is yet another story about human greed.
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Plague Black
Deimos >>> Vagabond
The problem is that deimos does not have enough med slots to keep vagabond pilot from running, so the solution might be to introduce another 3 med slots for deimos that can only be used for warp scramblers. Or to nerf wcs but that is a different topic.
It's more the fact that the Vagabond never has to enter web range in the first place and the Deimos is too slow to ever catch up with it...
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:31:00 -
[34]
Anyway, why haven't the rest of the OB gallente *****s spammed this thread to hell and back yet?
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Plague Black
Deimos >>> Vagabond
The problem is that deimos does not have enough med slots to keep vagabond pilot from running, so the solution might be to introduce another 3 med slots for deimos that can only be used for warp scramblers. Or to nerf wcs but that is a different topic.
Anyway, deimos is one mean damage-dealing machine. Not as versatile as ishtar, not as good at runnig like vagabond (best running ship around), not as good at sniping as eagle but at close range it's to be feared.
It suffers from large nosing but so does any hac.
There is nothing wrong with deimos except his price tag... but that is yet another story about human greed.
one mean damage dealer to what? Containers?
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Luc Boye
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
In a Thread some weeks ago, Tuxford said he would look into the fitting requirements of the Deimos. No word from him afterwards.
Tuxford: "Right, what do we got here, a gallente hac... nah this is crap *throws it away*, right lets pimp up the vagabond, it needs love"
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Tuxford: "Right, what do we got here, a gallente hac... nah this is crap *throws it away*, right lets pimp up the vagabond, it needs love"
Thats insane tbh... gallente have all the aces when it comes to ships. Maybe you are joking.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.07.25 14:25:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe on 25/07/2006 14:29:24
I think I'm going to have to agree that Gallente do not need another solo pwnmobile HAC. For this reason I do not think the deimos needs to swap its 6th high for a 4th mid as it will just turn the ship into a Brutix with a better tank and more dps, the Deimos needs to keep its weakness of easily being nossed out. I also feel that the Deimos should recieve no improvents with the Ishtar being the way it is. If the Deimos is to be improved like it should the Ishtar needs to lose a slot as currently the Ishtar does not follow the trend of almost all other drone ships, large drone bay = loss of slots in comparison to other ships of the same class and tier.
So I'm going to maintain my suggestestions posted earlier in the thread however like I stated above they should only be implemented if the Ishtar recieves the nerf it deserves. Remove a midslot from the Ishtar and slighly buff the deimos by what ever means seem most reasonable and I think Gallente HACs will be more enjoyable as a whole.
P.S. Sorry for turning this into a nerf Ishtar whine 
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Yarek Balear
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.25 14:35:00 -
[39]
If the Deimos had/did the following then I'd fly it a fair bit:-
Option 1: Fit Electron Blaster IIs + Small Nos, MWD + Scram + Cap Injector, with Dual Medium Rep + Hardners/Damage Mods
Option 2:Fit Ion Blaster IIs + Small NOS, MWD + Scram + Med Cap Injector, with Single Medium Rep + 800m Plate + Hardners/Damage Mods
Option 3:Fit Neutron Blaster IIs + Small NOS, MWD + Scram + Web, with Single Medium Rep + Hardners/Damage Mods
In all options the ship did a max of 2k/s with MWD on and no slave implants.
This gives reasonable gank options with weak tank, or half decent tank with less damage.
Of course it'll still be susceptable to larger ships with NOS to some degree and this is a vulnerability with all close range ships but its speed would make up for it to some degree.
Then I'd fly the ship more - until then, Ishtar it is...
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 14:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
enlightenment
OMGz I stand corrected. Somebody boost something quick! 
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 15:01:00 -
[41]
To the various people who say Gallente don't need another pwnmobile HAC; the FTWness of the Ishtar won't help me when all my SPs are in gunnery......
Saying leave the deimos effectively nerfed because other ships from the same race are really good is a crap argument TBH. Deimos is teh sexy, and should be FTW.
It has been suggested that making a high slot a med slot makes it a better brutix (more or less). This is a great idea. Deimos > Brutix > Thorax. That is in fact the exact ship progression I am aiming for (with a BS in there somewhere ofc).
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Hephaesteus
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 15:38:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Luc Boye
Tuxford: "Right, what do we got here, a gallente hac... nah this is crap *throws it away*, right lets pimp up the vagabond, it needs love"
Thats insane tbh... gallente have all the aces when it comes to ships. Maybe you are joking.
Whoa what happened to Caldari did they get nerfed.
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Knowing all, when all is unknown.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 15:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hephaesteus
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Luc Boye
Tuxford: "Right, what do we got here, a gallente hac... nah this is crap *throws it away*, right lets pimp up the vagabond, it needs love"
Thats insane tbh... gallente have all the aces when it comes to ships. Maybe you are joking.
Whoa what happened to Caldari did they get nerfed.
Well... without Raven caldari wouldnt be much of a problem tbh. 
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dixon
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Posted - 2006.07.25 15:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Well... without Raven caldari wouldnt be much of a problem tbh.
Are you part of the Serpentis, Guristas or any other NPC rat corp? If not what is your problem with the raven?
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 15:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Well... without Raven caldari wouldnt be much of a problem tbh.
Are you part of the Serpentis, Guristas or any other NPC rat corp? If not what is your problem with the raven?
Javelin torps?
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.25 16:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Well... without Raven caldari wouldnt be much of a problem tbh.
Are you part of the Serpentis, Guristas or any other NPC rat corp? If not what is your problem with the raven?
Javelin torps?
Precison cruise?
Never missing?
Loads of ewar?
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Dixon
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Posted - 2006.07.25 16:04:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Dixon on 25/07/2006 16:04:30
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Well... without Raven caldari wouldnt be much of a problem tbh.
Are you part of the Serpentis, Guristas or any other NPC rat corp? If not what is your problem with the raven?
Javelin torps?
Precison cruise?
Never missing?
Loads of ewar?
Are you ppl telling me that t2 ammo is overpowered ... AND ewar is too!!! NO WAY
that's just a real shock... time for me to take a cold shower
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Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.07.25 16:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
It has been suggested that making a high slot a med slot makes it a better brutix (more or less). This is a great idea. Deimos > Brutix > Thorax. That is in fact the exact ship progression I am aiming for (with a BS in there somewhere ofc).
I personally Feel that HACs should just be extremely specialized varients of their parent cruiser, in this case the Thorax. The thorax's biggest weakness is that it has rather large cap problems, this weakness should extend over to the Deimos. I strongly believe that giving the Deimos the option to fit a cap injector while using tacklign mids would greatly overpower the ship. Currently you have to chose between dropping a web or scram to use an injector, being forced to make sacrifcies is often a good thing for ballance.
I personally do not think HACs should simply displace BCs. BCs should maintain their cap and sometimes firpower/tank advantage over HACs. The large advantage HACs have and should only have over BCs is that they are faster, more agile, and have much better resistances.
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Bazman
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 16:55:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Bazman on 25/07/2006 16:55:50
Oh, how did i miss this, i was too busy whoring the other Deimos thread that was sitting there on the 1st page. Oh, and wheres that old Dash Ripcock thread...?
Buff Deimos grid by 10%. Alter Deimos' base speed to be equal or slightly faster than the Thorax. Alter Deimos' mass so it can hit 1.8 to 2km/s with a T2 MWD. Waalaa: You've fixed the ship. It can now viably fit a grid of medium ions and a decent tank, or a grid of Neutrons and an MWD with no tank (And only 1 RCU needed)
edit: also, fix the frikken Muninn. We all need a little love.
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Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a |
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