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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:13:00 -
[1]
Because of what I've been seeing while the southern coalition have been combating RA in Insmother I am left sitting here with a bitter taste in my mouth.
The issue that I have with the current system is that the owners of POSs can micro-manage the strontium in the POS while it is being sieged so that comes out of reinforced mode at a time of their choosing, basically making a mockery of a far larger force.
They are capable of doing this by jumping in dreads and carriers when most people aren't online and sleeping and boosting the shields of the POSs above 50% allowing them to be refueled.
It is my understanding that the reason for a POS having a reinforced mode was to allow the owners to assemble a defensive force to deal with any aggressors, not to make sure that the aggressors are not online when the POS comes out of reinforced mode, and then doing that every day for a week.
Now having explained the situation, I would like to propose a simple change that IMHO would be good a good all round and balanced solution.
When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
So if you have enough strontium for 5 hours it will be 10 hours before you can load strontium into the POS. The longer it's in reinforced mode, the longer its vulnerable to an attack after it leaves reinforced mode.
During the POS recovery period the owners would have to have a fleet there to defend it if they want to keep it.
From the point of the RP aspect of the game, this could be put down to a structure regeneration duration which is equal to the time that the strontium was being used to harden the structure, molecular regeneration or something. --
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Stormhold
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:21:00 -
[2]
Any single change which forces people to actively use force to defend poses instead of allowing people to avoid fighting and get sovereignity is welcome tbh.
In my opinion the whole pos warfare is stupid and boring as hell. The system which controlling stations rotates around shouldconcentrate on fleet battles, not on some stupid things you can plant and which are quite hard to destroy if their owner micromanages them.
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Faekurias
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:43:00 -
[3]
Does sound reasonable...
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Karl Shade
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:50:00 -
[4]
Seems like a good idea. the current sys is horrible. -
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Nebba Kenezzer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 01:12:00 -
[5]
Agreed, it does sound reasonable.
Any upgrade to the POS reinforced mode system which promotes more PvP combat is an upgrade I'm willing to pay money for.
Nebba - The Vocal Majority
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abukede
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 03:05:00 -
[6]
I agree too... it's about time POS warfare was addressed and updated. SHINRA to the MAX |
Luna Negra
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 04:21:00 -
[7]
Signed. |
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.25 05:36:00 -
[8]
K, but if You wuldn be able to aim for POS out of reinforced in a planned hour, You have like 3/4 chance to be it out of reinforced when You (defender) is not online in numbers good enough. If reinforced is time to assemble force, how to assemble a force when everyone is at work? Defending side shuld have some advantage, fortifications are ment for that. There are alreday whinings about POS defences being no threat to dreads, and so, zero-looses, very boring sieges. Surprisingly, that were people from attacking side, who considered that a problem. Attacker chooses time once, in first wave, when POS is being put into reinforced. Its qyout easy to do it a time where defender is down to 15% of average online and totally defenseless. If defender has that much luck to have a single person in defended POS, choosing time for next wave where there's a chance of full defender fleet, is quite balanced for me.
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Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 05:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Vera Nosfyu on 25/07/2006 05:45:31 Ellaine, with this system there's still enough time for the defenders to put together a defense, there's just a longer window of opportunity for the attackers to put together the second strike before the defenders can boost the shields and refuel the POS. -----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Eric carr
Crisis Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:14:00 -
[10]
I¦m against the whole pos-thing overall. You should only need to place a "control-tower" in a system. That should be enuf, and if someone wants the station, they need to shoot that control-tower to hell. What we see today is 1000 of POSes in every stystem just sitting their like a pice of ****. Now it is alla bout placing the most POSes. 1 "pos" should be enuff that the opposite side need to *****, before placin their own "control-tower". End the pos-war has begun Please only use english in your signature - Jacques([email protected]) |
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:19:00 -
[11]
Ok, the system is not bad, it prevents reinforced-refuelled ping pong. I only argue against thesis, that its wrong that defender can set reinforce time. Assembling fleet is not about taking a lot of time, defender culd have 3 months and be unable to assemble a fleet if the battle is sheduled in time where all defenders are at work.
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Uther Doull
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 09:26:00 -
[12]
actually, this system already excists... the fact that pos can not be refueled before the shields reach 50% again serves this exact purpose.
but ofcourse havening carriers with capital shield transporters negates that game mechanic, you could call that a bug or programming oversight, but i'm sure ccp didn't meant for this to be possible (you could also call it an exploit, but it's not untill ccp says it is)
simple solution: don't allow pos shields to be remote boosted.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 10:23:00 -
[13]
Uther, what you are effectively saying is that a POS shouldn't be allowed to be shield boosted, correct ?
We know that CCP has code in EVE for not being able to target stuff, but that is tied to some state, e.g. "cyno active", "outpost with sov". And code for things like not warping when in siege mode. But these are all game state related. How would you translate that to a POS in reinforced mode ? Or just simply make it so that POSs can't be shield charged ?
What I propose on the other hand gives everyone in the player base a simple rule which opens up POS wars to be more PVP combat oriented, both defenders and attackers will know that there is a period of time where strontium won't be refueled and as such isn't an issue. It then boils down to who has the more effective combat force.
You also have to bear in mind that the aggressors have to take on the POS defenses and any defensive force that the POS owners assemble.
Stopping the "reinforced-refuelled ping pong" (as Ellaine so nicely called it) has to be the main priority of any changes to the POS warfare system. --
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Cail Fortestan
M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:14:00 -
[14]
A related oversight IMHO is that if a POS is boosted back out of reinforced before dt, then there is no loss of sov count. Effectively, it as if there was no attack on the POS at all during that 24 hour period.
That sucks. If a POS goes into reinforced, it's count for Sov should reset to 5 days from the time it comes out of reinforced.
Then, if you knock a large number of enemy POSs into (at least) reinforced AND have more of your own POSs than they do, you are guaranteed at least a period of sov.
A further revision which would fix this is that for the alliance with Sov, additional POSs should count immediately towards sovreignty. The attackers POSs only count from day 5.
That way, the defender (of sovreignty) can defend, the attacker must be the attacker. Current system puts the attacker of sovreignty into the easier defensive position immediately. -- M. Corp.
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Blitz0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Blitz0r on 25/07/2006 11:16:31 Edited by: Blitz0r on 25/07/2006 11:15:58
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime We know that CCP has code in EVE for not being able to target stuff, but that is tied to some state, e.g. "cyno active", "outpost with sov". And code for things like not warping when in siege mode. But these are all game state related. How would you translate that to a POS in reinforced mode ? Or just simply make it so that POSs can't be shield charged ?
Its easy really, change it so that when a POS goes into reinforced mode, noone is able to target it at all.
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Shiva Seran
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:33:00 -
[16]
there are two good ideas in this post. coming more from a RP perspective, i would like to see the following:
reinforced mode means the tower uses strontium to keep up his passive defenses. imagine you're in such a situation, you starbase is under attack and you transfer all the energy to keep the shields alive. hence, all other modules at the POS should go offline if in reinforced mode because all energy and fuel is needed to sustain shields. this means the POS has surrenedered to the firepower of the agressor, but can't be completely destroyed. it can be boosted, but the POS itself is not able to defend. it needs to be defended, and the agressors have an even chance to engage at the scene even without a dreadfleet. this small change will solve most of the problems imho
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Blitz0r Its easy really, change it so that when a POS goes into reinforced mode, noone is able to target it at all.
I don't think that that would change the ping-pong, it would just mean that the defender only has to wait until the POS is out of reinforced before boosting the shields and refueling the strontium. Same thing people are doing now but with a slight delay. --
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
Okay. Well, the mechanism is supposedly designed so that it goes off at your peak time.
So I'd suggest be that you can set an "end time" to reinforced mode, which is when it drops out even with strongtium remaining. And then it's vulnrable for a fixed period of, say, 6 hours before it can reinforce again.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 25/07/2006 13:47:30
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
Okay. Well, the mechanism is supposedly designed so that it goes off at your peak time.
No, you can still adjust the strontium levels as now and the defender can still decide when the POS will exit reinforced mode as they do now, the difference being that they can't refuel strontium for a duration of time equal to the duration of the reinforced mode.
To put it another way, the longer you have a POS in reinforced mode the longer you have to defend it and not have the luxury of reinforced mode if the aggressors do manage to take down the POS shields during that time.
Originally by: Maya Rkell So I'd suggest be that you can set an "end time" to reinforced mode, which is when it drops out even with strongtium remaining. And then it's vulnrable for a fixed period of, say, 6 hours before it can reinforce again.
I don't quite understand what you are getting at here. Could you please explain what you mean in a bit more detail ? --
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The Enslaver
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 19:45:00 -
[20]
Couldn't agree more.
All the current system does is allow POS's to be invulnerable with the usee of a single indy logged off in that system.
The fact that this is allowed, must obviously be an oversight on CCP's part - as such I am curious asto what CCP plan to do about this, wether they intend to go along with a plan similar to this - or another plan they have. --------
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.25 20:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/07/2006 20:33:00 Jaabaa Prime,
Basically I'm suggesting that you get to decide what time of day your POS will come out of reinforced. There is then a 6-hour window of vulnrability.
This lets you have the POS vulnrable during the next 24 hours at your peak time. It gives a resonable time period for an attack, essentially. After those 6 hours, it can again enter reinforced if the corp still own it.
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Cail Fortestan
M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:07:00 -
[22]
The other idea I heard and think is a good one is just to have the reinforced mode be 24 hour increments. So, you put in enough for 24 hours minimum and it will be reinforced for a multiple of 24 hours. -- M. Corp.
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cail Fortestan A related oversight IMHO is that if a POS is boosted back out of reinforced before dt, then there is no loss of sov count. Effectively, it as if there was no attack on the POS at all during that 24 hour period.
That sucks. If a POS goes into reinforced, it's count for Sov should reset to 5 days from the time it comes out of reinforced.
Then, if you knock a large number of enemy POSs into (at least) reinforced AND have more of your own POSs than they do, you are guaranteed at least a period of sov.
A further revision which would fix this is that for the alliance with Sov, additional POSs should count immediately towards sovreignty. The attackers POSs only count from day 5.
That way, the defender (of sovreignty) can defend, the attacker must be the attacker. Current system puts the attacker of sovreignty into the easier defensive position immediately.
Total & utter agreement, this 5 day nonsense is far too easy to abuse, A POS in reinforced mode should effectively be negated.
Originally by: Market Scanner Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Neebslil
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Posted - 2006.07.26 00:57:00 -
[24]
This idea really rox0r
Then it would be more trategic PVP wise instead of easy logistics, wich can be done with a trial account alt , only adding enough Strontium so the POS comes out of reinforced mode when the actual agressors dont have a chance to follow up their work. |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.26 02:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cail Fortestan The other idea I heard and think is a good one is just to have the reinforced mode be 24 hour increments. So, you put in enough for 24 hours minimum and it will be reinforced for a multiple of 24 hours.
Well I'm firmly of the opinion that reinforced should be a way of timeshifting the fight for the POS rather than a long defence mechanism.
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.07.26 03:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shiva Seran ...this means the POS has surrenedered to the firepower of the agressor, but can't be completely destroyed. it can be boosted, but the POS itself is not able to defend. it needs to be defended, and the agressors have an even chance to engage at the scene even without a dreadfleet. this small change will solve most of the problems imho
/signed
I actually left an alliance in-part because of these lameness. That and they were cramping my style. But mostly because POS wars + blobs are lame and CCP appear to be ignoring the problems, and not even considering solutions.. - nerf 0.5+ |
Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.26 14:04:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 26/07/2006 14:04:36
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/07/2006 20:33:00 Jaabaa Prime,
Basically I'm suggesting that you get to decide what time of day your POS will come out of reinforced. There is then a 6-hour window of vulnrability.
This lets you have the POS vulnrable during the next 24 hours at your peak time. It gives a resonable time period for an attack, essentially. After those 6 hours, it can again enter reinforced if the corp still own it.
Maybe I'm not getting it, but that sound very similar to the situation we already have, except that the POS would still have strontium when it leaves reinforced mode for 6 hours then go back into reinforced mode again if not taken ?. I don't see how this idea would really change anything.
The 24 hour cycles of reinforced mode would give the aggressors too much of an advantage IMO, because they will probably be attacking the POS during their prime time which would nicely coincide with their next prime time 24 hours later. I think that the POS should be able to regulate the strontium amounts so that it comes out of reinforced when they want, but the penalty for that is that they can't replenish the strontium for the same amount of time.
Until now I've only been talking about stopping the refueling of strontium but what do you think about stopping all refueling during the cool down phase ? If someone were to put too much strontium in and not enough regular fuel then it might even go offline. --
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 14:20:00 -
[28]
the easiest solution would be to prevent remote shieldrecharge on pos in reinforced mode.
This would be similar to a dread in siege mode which cant be recharged unless it leaves siege. The idea is already ingame it just needs to be transfered on the pos warfare.
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Raste
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:27:00 -
[29]
I don't care how they fix it, but they really need to make it less boring. Every major territory fight ends up with people complaining about how boring PoS wars are, hopefully CCP'll wake up to this before accounts start getting cancelled.
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Roddic
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Posted - 2006.07.27 00:05:00 -
[30]
the attacker should have absolutly no idea how long reinforced mode will last. unless they have a spy in defending corp. the pos could have 200 or 200000+ strontium clathrates left, and the ability to use them as it sees fit (survival mode).
if you really want to reduce the number of pos's increase there price by a factor of 10 or more. geeze if they where really expensive people might even decide to put in an effort for a defensive force.
the defender has the right to defend as they see fit, no matter how much it upsets the attacker, a bit like the attacker has the right to shoot at what ever they want.
the moment something dosn't suit someone else, is the moment someone start complaining.
and jaabaa if it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth dont do it. They are not making a mockery of your force, you need to have more people from different timezones in you corp. why should they only play when it suits you? if your going to siege some one, you need to be doing it constantly, if all the soldiers go to sleep at the same time; they are going to slip reinforcements in through the back door. its a given.
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