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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:13:00 -
[1]
Because of what I've been seeing while the southern coalition have been combating RA in Insmother I am left sitting here with a bitter taste in my mouth.
The issue that I have with the current system is that the owners of POSs can micro-manage the strontium in the POS while it is being sieged so that comes out of reinforced mode at a time of their choosing, basically making a mockery of a far larger force.
They are capable of doing this by jumping in dreads and carriers when most people aren't online and sleeping and boosting the shields of the POSs above 50% allowing them to be refueled.
It is my understanding that the reason for a POS having a reinforced mode was to allow the owners to assemble a defensive force to deal with any aggressors, not to make sure that the aggressors are not online when the POS comes out of reinforced mode, and then doing that every day for a week.
Now having explained the situation, I would like to propose a simple change that IMHO would be good a good all round and balanced solution.
When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
So if you have enough strontium for 5 hours it will be 10 hours before you can load strontium into the POS. The longer it's in reinforced mode, the longer its vulnerable to an attack after it leaves reinforced mode.
During the POS recovery period the owners would have to have a fleet there to defend it if they want to keep it.
From the point of the RP aspect of the game, this could be put down to a structure regeneration duration which is equal to the time that the strontium was being used to harden the structure, molecular regeneration or something.
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Mini Skill Planner |
Stormhold
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:21:00 -
[2]
Any single change which forces people to actively use force to defend poses instead of allowing people to avoid fighting and get sovereignity is welcome tbh.
In my opinion the whole pos warfare is stupid and boring as hell. The system which controlling stations rotates around shouldconcentrate on fleet battles, not on some stupid things you can plant and which are quite hard to destroy if their owner micromanages them.
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Faekurias
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:43:00 -
[3]
Does sound reasonable...
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Karl Shade
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:50:00 -
[4]
Seems like a good idea. the current sys is horrible.
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Nebba Kenezzer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 01:12:00 -
[5]
Agreed, it does sound reasonable.
Any upgrade to the POS reinforced mode system which promotes more PvP combat is an upgrade I'm willing to pay money for.
Nebba - The Vocal Majority
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abukede
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 03:05:00 -
[6]
I agree too... it's about time POS warfare was addressed and updated.
SHINRA to the MAX |
Luna Negra
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 04:21:00 -
[7]
Signed. |
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.25 05:36:00 -
[8]
K, but if You wuldn be able to aim for POS out of reinforced in a planned hour, You have like 3/4 chance to be it out of reinforced when You (defender) is not online in numbers good enough. If reinforced is time to assemble force, how to assemble a force when everyone is at work?
Defending side shuld have some advantage, fortifications are ment for that. There are alreday whinings about POS defences being no threat to dreads, and so, zero-looses, very boring sieges. Surprisingly, that were people from attacking side, who considered that a problem.
Attacker chooses time once, in first wave, when POS is being put into reinforced. Its qyout easy to do it a time where defender is down to 15% of average online and totally defenseless. If defender has that much luck to have a single person in defended POS, choosing time for next wave where there's a chance of full defender fleet, is quite balanced for me.
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Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 05:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Vera Nosfyu on 25/07/2006 05:45:31
Ellaine, with this system there's still enough time for the defenders to put together a defense, there's just a longer window of opportunity for the attackers to put together the second strike before the defenders can boost the shields and refuel the POS.
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"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Eric carr
Crisis Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:14:00 -
[10]
IŠm against the whole pos-thing overall. You should only need to place a "control-tower" in a system. That should be enuf, and if someone wants the station, they need to shoot that control-tower to hell. What we see today is 1000 of POSes in every stystem just sitting their like a pice of ****. Now it is alla bout placing the most POSes. 1 "pos" should be enuff that the opposite side need to *****, before placin their own "control-tower". End the pos-war has begun 
Please only use english in your signature - Jacques([email protected]) |
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.25 06:19:00 -
[11]
Ok, the system is not bad, it prevents reinforced-refuelled ping pong.
I only argue against thesis, that its wrong that defender can set reinforce time. Assembling fleet is not about taking a lot of time, defender culd have 3 months and be unable to assemble a fleet if the battle is sheduled in time where all defenders are at work.
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Uther Doull
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 09:26:00 -
[12]
actually, this system already excists...
the fact that pos can not be refueled before the shields reach 50% again serves this exact purpose.
but ofcourse havening carriers with capital shield transporters negates that game mechanic, you could call that a bug or programming oversight, but i'm sure ccp didn't meant for this to be possible (you could also call it an exploit, but it's not untill ccp says it is)
simple solution: don't allow pos shields to be remote boosted.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 10:23:00 -
[13]
Uther, what you are effectively saying is that a POS shouldn't be allowed to be shield boosted, correct ?
We know that CCP has code in EVE for not being able to target stuff, but that is tied to some state, e.g. "cyno active", "outpost with sov". And code for things like not warping when in siege mode. But these are all game state related. How would you translate that to a POS in reinforced mode ? Or just simply make it so that POSs can't be shield charged ?
What I propose on the other hand gives everyone in the player base a simple rule which opens up POS wars to be more PVP combat oriented, both defenders and attackers will know that there is a period of time where strontium won't be refueled and as such isn't an issue. It then boils down to who has the more effective combat force.
You also have to bear in mind that the aggressors have to take on the POS defenses and any defensive force that the POS owners assemble.
Stopping the "reinforced-refuelled ping pong" (as Ellaine so nicely called it) has to be the main priority of any changes to the POS warfare system.
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Mini Skill Planner |
Cail Fortestan
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:14:00 -
[14]
A related oversight IMHO is that if a POS is boosted back out of reinforced before dt, then there is no loss of sov count. Effectively, it as if there was no attack on the POS at all during that 24 hour period.
That sucks. If a POS goes into reinforced, it's count for Sov should reset to 5 days from the time it comes out of reinforced.
Then, if you knock a large number of enemy POSs into (at least) reinforced AND have more of your own POSs than they do, you are guaranteed at least a period of sov.
A further revision which would fix this is that for the alliance with Sov, additional POSs should count immediately towards sovreignty. The attackers POSs only count from day 5.
That way, the defender (of sovreignty) can defend, the attacker must be the attacker. Current system puts the attacker of sovreignty into the easier defensive position immediately.
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M. Corp.
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Blitz0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 11:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Blitz0r on 25/07/2006 11:16:31
Edited by: Blitz0r on 25/07/2006 11:15:58
 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
We know that CCP has code in EVE for not being able to target stuff, but that is tied to some state, e.g. "cyno active", "outpost with sov". And code for things like not warping when in siege mode. But these are all game state related. How would you translate that to a POS in reinforced mode ? Or just simply make it so that POSs can't be shield charged ?
Its easy really, change it so that when a POS goes into reinforced mode, noone is able to target it at all.
M.Corp BPC Packages |
Shiva Seran
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:33:00 -
[16]
there are two good ideas in this post. coming more from a RP perspective, i would like to see the following:
reinforced mode means the tower uses strontium to keep up his passive defenses. imagine you're in such a situation, you starbase is under attack and you transfer all the energy to keep the shields alive. hence, all other modules at the POS should go offline if in reinforced mode because all energy and fuel is needed to sustain shields. this means the POS has surrenedered to the firepower of the agressor, but can't be completely destroyed. it can be boosted, but the POS itself is not able to defend. it needs to be defended, and the agressors have an even chance to engage at the scene even without a dreadfleet. this small change will solve most of the problems imho
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Blitz0r
Its easy really, change it so that when a POS goes into reinforced mode, noone is able to target it at all.
I don't think that that would change the ping-pong, it would just mean that the defender only has to wait until the POS is out of reinforced before boosting the shields and refueling the strontium. Same thing people are doing now but with a slight delay.
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Mini Skill Planner |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.25 12:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
Okay. Well, the mechanism is supposedly designed so that it goes off at your peak time.
So I'd suggest be that you can set an "end time" to reinforced mode, which is when it drops out even with strongtium remaining. And then it's vulnrable for a fixed period of, say, 6 hours before it can reinforce again.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 13:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 25/07/2006 13:47:30
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
Okay. Well, the mechanism is supposedly designed so that it goes off at your peak time.
No, you can still adjust the strontium levels as now and the defender can still decide when the POS will exit reinforced mode as they do now, the difference being that they can't refuel strontium for a duration of time equal to the duration of the reinforced mode.
To put it another way, the longer you have a POS in reinforced mode the longer you have to defend it and not have the luxury of reinforced mode if the aggressors do manage to take down the POS shields during that time.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
So I'd suggest be that you can set an "end time" to reinforced mode, which is when it drops out even with strongtium remaining. And then it's vulnrable for a fixed period of, say, 6 hours before it can reinforce again.
I don't quite understand what you are getting at here. Could you please explain what you mean in a bit more detail ?
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Mini Skill Planner |
The Enslaver
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 19:45:00 -
[20]
Couldn't agree more.
All the current system does is allow POS's to be invulnerable with the usee of a single indy logged off in that system.
The fact that this is allowed, must obviously be an oversight on CCP's part - as such I am curious asto what CCP plan to do about this, wether they intend to go along with a plan similar to this - or another plan they have.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.25 20:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/07/2006 20:33:00
Jaabaa Prime,
Basically I'm suggesting that you get to decide what time of day your POS will come out of reinforced. There is then a 6-hour window of vulnrability.
This lets you have the POS vulnrable during the next 24 hours at your peak time. It gives a resonable time period for an attack, essentially. After those 6 hours, it can again enter reinforced if the corp still own it.
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Cail Fortestan
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:07:00 -
[22]
The other idea I heard and think is a good one is just to have the reinforced mode be 24 hour increments. So, you put in enough for 24 hours minimum and it will be reinforced for a multiple of 24 hours.
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M. Corp.
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cail Fortestan
A related oversight IMHO is that if a POS is boosted back out of reinforced before dt, then there is no loss of sov count. Effectively, it as if there was no attack on the POS at all during that 24 hour period.
That sucks. If a POS goes into reinforced, it's count for Sov should reset to 5 days from the time it comes out of reinforced.
Then, if you knock a large number of enemy POSs into (at least) reinforced AND have more of your own POSs than they do, you are guaranteed at least a period of sov.
A further revision which would fix this is that for the alliance with Sov, additional POSs should count immediately towards sovreignty. The attackers POSs only count from day 5.
That way, the defender (of sovreignty) can defend, the attacker must be the attacker. Current system puts the attacker of sovreignty into the easier defensive position immediately.
Total & utter agreement, this 5 day nonsense is far too easy to abuse, A POS in reinforced mode should effectively be negated.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Neebslil
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Posted - 2006.07.26 00:57:00 -
[24]
This idea really rox0r
Then it would be more trategic PVP wise instead of easy logistics,
wich can be done with a trial account alt , only adding enough Strontium
so the POS comes out of reinforced mode when the actual agressors dont have a
chance to follow up their work. |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.26 02:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cail Fortestan
The other idea I heard and think is a good one is just to have the reinforced mode be 24 hour increments. So, you put in enough for 24 hours minimum and it will be reinforced for a multiple of 24 hours.
Well I'm firmly of the opinion that reinforced should be a way of timeshifting the fight for the POS rather than a long defence mechanism.
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.07.26 03:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shiva Seran
...this means the POS has surrenedered to the firepower of the agressor, but can't be completely destroyed. it can be boosted, but the POS itself is not able to defend. it needs to be defended, and the agressors have an even chance to engage at the scene even without a dreadfleet. this small change will solve most of the problems imho
/signed
I actually left an alliance in-part because of these lameness. That and they were cramping my style. But mostly because POS wars + blobs are lame and CCP appear to be ignoring the problems, and not even considering solutions..
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nerf 0.5+ |
Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.26 14:04:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 26/07/2006 14:04:36
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/07/2006 20:33:00
Jaabaa Prime,
Basically I'm suggesting that you get to decide what time of day your POS will come out of reinforced. There is then a 6-hour window of vulnrability.
This lets you have the POS vulnrable during the next 24 hours at your peak time. It gives a resonable time period for an attack, essentially. After those 6 hours, it can again enter reinforced if the corp still own it.
Maybe I'm not getting it, but that sound very similar to the situation we already have, except that the POS would still have strontium when it leaves reinforced mode for 6 hours then go back into reinforced mode again if not taken ?. I don't see how this idea would really change anything.
The 24 hour cycles of reinforced mode would give the aggressors too much of an advantage IMO, because they will probably be attacking the POS during their prime time which would nicely coincide with their next prime time 24 hours later. I think that the POS should be able to regulate the strontium amounts so that it comes out of reinforced when they want, but the penalty for that is that they can't replenish the strontium for the same amount of time.
Until now I've only been talking about stopping the refueling of strontium but what do you think about stopping all refueling during the cool down phase ? If someone were to put too much strontium in and not enough regular fuel then it might even go offline.
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Mini Skill Planner |
Kcel Chim
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 14:20:00 -
[28]
the easiest solution would be to prevent remote shieldrecharge on pos in reinforced mode.
This would be similar to a dread in siege mode which cant be recharged unless it leaves siege. The idea is already ingame it just needs to be transfered on the pos warfare.
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Raste
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:27:00 -
[29]
I don't care how they fix it, but they really need to make it less boring. Every major territory fight ends up with people complaining about how boring PoS wars are, hopefully CCP'll wake up to this before accounts start getting cancelled.
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Roddic
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Posted - 2006.07.27 00:05:00 -
[30]
the attacker should have absolutly no idea how long reinforced mode will last. unless they have a spy in defending corp. the pos could have 200 or 200000+ strontium clathrates left, and the ability to use them as it sees fit (survival mode).
if you really want to reduce the number of pos's increase there price by a factor of 10 or more. geeze if they where really expensive people might even decide to put in an effort for a defensive force.
the defender has the right to defend as they see fit, no matter how much it upsets the attacker, a bit like the attacker has the right to shoot at what ever they want.
the moment something dosn't suit someone else, is the moment someone start complaining.
and jaabaa if it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth dont do it. They are not making a mockery of your force, you need to have more people from different timezones in you corp. why should they only play when it suits you? if your going to siege some one, you need to be doing it constantly, if all the soldiers go to sleep at the same time; they are going to slip reinforcements in through the back door. its a given.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.27 01:52:00 -
[31]
Jaabaa Prime,
Again, right now it burns the strontium then comes out. The attack has been at the attackers prime time. Now, it comes out at the DEFENDERS prime time, and they have a fixed window of 6 hours to attack it, after which it can enter reinforced again.
"The same amount of time" can't work, because that leaves the POS vulnrable when they have nobody online and is basically a guaranteed loss of the POS.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.27 08:47:00 -
[32]
I see where you are coming from now.
"The defenders adjust the stront levels for it to come out when they want it to but then it can't re-enter reinforced for a fixed period of 6 hours after leaving reinforced mode."
It very similar to what I'm suggesting but with the difference that the time is fixed at 6 hours.
As I see it, reinforced should only be a stop gap measure allowing the owners to get a fleet together to defend the POS.
The beauty of the "same time" solution is that the owners can still decide when the POS comes out of reinforced mode but have to defend the POS without the reinforced option for an equal duration of time.
A few examples:
a) POS is attacked on a Saturday evening and the owners set it up to come out of reinforced mode on the Monday morning before DT (~34 hours). The POS will be without strontium until Tuesday afternoon. The attackers have the whole of Monday evening to take out the POS and the defenders have to be there to stop it.
b) POS is attacked on a Tuesday evening and the owners set it up to come out of reinforced mode on the Wednesday morning before DT (~10 hours). The attackers only have a very small window of opertunity before the POS can be refilled with strontium and have to destroy it in that time, which may or may not be in the aggressors prime time. The owners only have to be there 10 hours defending the POS (9 if you take off the 1 hour DT).
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Mini Skill Planner |
Laboratus
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 08:58:00 -
[33]
The system as it is today makes playing the game possible, while still having a Real Life.
If the system was changed according to the OP s proposal, you really would have to put 8h days into eve just to get anything done.
While it would be nice to see more dedication, this borders the lines of game addiction.
Mind control and tin hats |
Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.27 11:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Laboratus
The system as it is today makes playing the game possible, while still having a Real Life.
If the system was changed according to the OP s proposal, you really would have to put 8h days into eve just to get anything done.
While it would be nice to see more dedication, this borders the lines of game addiction.
It would only require dedication from combat pilots if you are serious about keeping a POS and/or sovereignty, and not just require a remote shield booster and fuel.
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Mini Skill Planner |
Anara Serraph
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.27 12:03:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Laboratus
The system as it is today makes playing the game possible, while still having a Real Life.
That depends entirely on your point of view
lets say I have a POS you wish to destroy and you attack it in your prime time lets say 22:00 eve time and you are in the same timezone as the server so you are going to be going to bed soon as you have work tomorrow at 09:00 eve time, but as you entered the system to take the POS I put enough strontium in it to bring it out of reinfored mode at 04:00 eve time, at which point im more than prepered to log on and boost the POS's shield and refuel it negating your hard work. this leaves you with the choice do you stay up/wake up early so as to be there to finish the POS off and be tired all day tomorrow at work, or do you waste a Rest Day/Sick Day on a Computer Game, or do you just forget it go to bed and go to work the next day thinking how boring POS wars really are?
As im sure you see the problem with the current system is that the defender can exploit the fact that you have to go to work tomorrow and while thats ok for the people who dont have to go to work for those of us who do there has to be a solution (other than syaing up all night and going to wotk tired)
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UAxDEATH
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2006.07.27 12:22:00 -
[36]
CCP how about to change whole f game for -lv-???? than for bob??? Why not ??? How they saying ??? they have no fun ??? But i`m wonder, how often you`ll have to change this game ??
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Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
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Posted - 2006.07.27 12:23:00 -
[37]
RA = 900 pilots. 50 real people.
Coalition = 8000 pilots. How many people you have ?
You are unable to destroy red alliance using in-game methods, despite outnumbering them 9 : 1. Ofc, you decided to WHINE. Whining > everything in eve. Amarr whined and received Abaddon, for example.
RA ppl using alarm clock to get up in 4 a.m. You want to stay casual, and still win in this game. NO.
Rage and Terror - making people quit EVE. |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.27 12:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
I see where you are coming from now.
"The defenders adjust the stront levels for it to come out when they want it to but then it can't re-enter reinforced for a fixed period of 6 hours after leaving reinforced mode."
It very similar to what I'm suggesting but with the difference that the time is fixed at 6 hours.
Yes. Heck, 6 for large towers, 8 for med and 10 for small, making it FAR easier to defend over time the larger tower, as well as it being tougher.
Yes, it could be used to dump the vulnrability window into an obscure timezone area, but then that makes say a corp of Aussies ideal for POSbusting that alliance's POS and they WON'T be able to deal with them...
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Metara
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.27 13:25:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Metara on 27/07/2006 13:25:02
LOL
Lotka Volterra & Co can't beat "dead" Red Alliance in fair POS wars...
So they've decided to change the rules...
LOL
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Minevra
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Posted - 2006.07.27 13:45:00 -
[40]
We have not so many pilots thats why:
1. No more then 50 pilots of each side can be in the system while the pos/station is under siedge.
2. We can control POS firing so it can consantrate fire on 1-2 targets.
3. Blobs of 70+ pilots are forbiden.
4. If 2+ stationary/interdictor warp distruptor bubbles in a grid they don't work.
5. Gate camping with 20+ people is illigal.  
P.S. I want a GOD mode 
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Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.27 13:57:00 -
[41]
POS weapons should go offline while it is in reinforced.
That way if the carrier tries that trick it is vulnerable to attack from the people who put the POS in reinforced.
Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
Huzzah Federation
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 14:33:00 -
[42]
Yeah it kinda riles me that the POS is not only invulnerable in re-inforced but it can blat you out the sky. At least make the guns tragettable so they can be picked off byt eh dreads, whilst teh pos is in reinforced.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Papa Digger
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.27 16:18:00 -
[43]
I can say only one.. LOL.
"If we can beat them using rules, we change rules". (c) LV.
From feature list Exodus.
"With the introduction of player owned Starbases, EVE will become a game of true territorial conquest, even more so than the introduction of Player Conquerable Stations.
Not expensive to build, but costly to operate "
Territory cost money! If u want to own territory, PAY for it.. if u want to claim sov, you need very much money and hard work to support towers. If you don't want to support your POSes it is YOUR problem! Not game mechanic.
Wanna claim? Set up L POSes, and keep it online! If you don't want expences, then you don't need this territory. And stop crying.
----
CEO. |
Atlus
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.27 16:56:00 -
[44]
wooohooo! dear CCP, I want a bycicle, a box of cookies and some **** movies :D
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SephiriotH
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:34:00 -
[45]
instead of making some POS adjustments , I would like to see an improvement of dreads a lot , at least against battleships , as they are now nothing more than actually big **tty mobile sentry guns .
Remember : with a good torpedo and bad word You can hurt much more than with bad word alone. |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:37:00 -
[46]
Yes, because boring people out of 0.0 is a good strategy at present. Literally.
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Kha1n
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 18:39:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Minevra
We have not so many pilots thats why:
1. No more then 50 pilots of each side can be in the system while the pos/station is under siedge.
2. We can control POS firing so it can consantrate fire on 1-2 targets.
3. Blobs of 70+ pilots are forbiden.
4. If 2+ stationary/interdictor warp distruptor bubbles in a grid they don't work.
5. Gate camping with 20+ people is illigal.
P.S. I want a GOD mode
+1 Agree
P.S.
LoLka Coalition just ROFL
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2006.07.27 18:53:00 -
[48]
LOLKA Coalition 
Funny name and to a T!
Why u ask so complicated things?
Ask for urself at once a big round red "I WIN" button in game menu.
Clicking on it will make u instant winner.
Ahahahahahaha kiddy coalition! Suck more lollipops with sugar - sugar will help ur brain work better.
____________________________
Die, but croak! - viking's war-cry |
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.27 19:19:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 27/07/2006 19:19:03
Vodka LOLterra is a nice abbreviation.
But outside of that, LV is the coolest alliance name I know :)
(But we are more exciting, barely surviving all the time is so much fun, like in heroic movies ;)
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Santiago Cortes
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Posted - 2006.07.27 20:23:00 -
[50]
*Thread Cleaned*
This is a discussion forum, kindly take the sabre rattling elsewhere.
forum rules | mailto:mods@ |
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 22:45:00 -
[51]
I also find it odd a POS cant be dropped in re-inforced mode. Why cant a POS buster be deployed that uses stontium to drain the shield out.
Speeding up the decay of the reinforced mode.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.27 22:49:00 -
[52]
Becsuse then you get to drop it at YOUR primetime, not theirs, and they've automagically lost it. That's not good.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.27 23:00:00 -
[53]
The idea behind reinforced mode is to give the POS owners a chance to assemble a fleet to defend it. Something that you don't have to do if you time it so that a POS come out of reinforced *just* before downtime and then refill it with strontium.
--
Mini Skill Planner |
Pastora
Russian SOBR
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.27 23:41:00 -
[54]
The better system would be if the attacker gets his friends on all his 20 alts in the system in question and types word CLAIM more times than the opponent, then he automatically claims the station, and adjusting systems.
_______________________________________________
If ifs and ands were pots and pans,
I would grow mushrooms in my pants. |
Kenichi
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Posted - 2006.07.28 01:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 25/07/2006 00:19:40
Because of what I've been seeing while the southern coalition have been combating RA in Insmother I am left sitting here with a bitter taste in my mouth.
The issue that I have with the current system is that the owners of POSs can micro-manage the strontium in the POS while it is being sieged so that comes out of reinforced mode at a time of their choosing, basically making a mockery of a far larger force.
They are capable of doing this by jumping in dreads and carriers when most people aren't online and sleeping and boosting the shields of the POSs above 50% allowing them to be refueled.
It is my understanding that the reason for a POS having a reinforced mode was to allow the owners to assemble a defensive force to deal with any aggressors, not to make sure that the aggressors are not online when the POS comes out of reinforced mode, and then doing that every day for a week.
Now having explained the situation, I would like to propose a simple change that IMHO would be good a good all round and balanced solution.
When a POS enters reinforced mode it can't be refueled with strontium for twice that period of time.
So if you have enough strontium for 5 hours it will be 10 hours before you can load strontium into the POS (i.e. a further 5 hours after it comes out of reinforced mode). The longer it's in reinforced mode, the longer its vulnerable to an attack after it leaves reinforced mode.
During the POS recovery period the owners would have to have a fleet there to defend it if they want to keep it.
From the point of the RP aspect of the game, this could be put down to a structure regeneration duration which is equal to the time that the strontium was being used to harden the structure, molecular regeneration or something.
lol
Attackers choose time when to attack POS and can remove 75% of shield without any resistance from defenders. Defenders can choose time to protect, but begins only with 25% of shield. All is balanced. About what you crying?
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.28 02:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
The idea behind reinforced mode is to give the POS owners a chance to assemble a fleet to defend it. Something that you don't have to do if you time it so that a POS come out of reinforced *just* before downtime and then refill it with strontium.
DT would be a "null time" within that period in which nothing happened, of course. Even make it add an hour to the timer. And if you do that, then say mercenaries in the right timezone will have a field day popping the POS which your fleet put into reinforced last night.
After a few of THOSE, they'll try and make the window reasonable and defensible.
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2006.07.28 05:26:00 -
[57]
I think that defenders should have more possibilities in diverse defence tactics that they have now...
New
POS defencive mode - bonus to resists, recharge rate, POS's turrets DMG and so on, but much wasteful in resource use.
POS normal mode - no bonuses and no penalties
POS economic mode - less recharge rate, less resists, less DMG, but less resources use to operate
New defencive structures available for construction in ur calim system.
Near gate/station/free space turrets, warp traps, mine fields and so on.
Even players owned (hired) NPC defenders.
If attackers uses capitals in defender cliamed space then their capital ships should get some penalty - extra resource spendings.
____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Cail Fortestan
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.28 09:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Roddic
the attacker should have absolutly no idea how long reinforced mode will last. unless they have a spy in defending corp. the pos could have 200 or 200000+ strontium clathrates left, and the ability to use them as it sees fit (survival mode).
You have fallen into the trap here (and below) that is the specific prbolme with POS warfare. The ATTACKER in the case of POS wars is the alliance putting up new POSs to try and take sovreignty. The DEFENDER is the alliance with the current sovreignty and the station.
It should be possible for the DEFENDER who has sovreignty and owns the station to protect itself better against a timezone tactic.
Originally by: Roddic
if you really want to reduce the number of pos's increase there price by a factor of 10 or more. geeze if they where really expensive people might even decide to put in an effort for a defensive force.
Er, they have tried this already. Of course some alliances bought large numbers of Large POSs as a stockpile before the price went up, giving them an unfair advantage.
Originally by: Roddic
the defender has the right to defend as they see fit, no matter how much it upsets the attacker, a bit like the attacker has the right to shoot at what ever they want.
Agreed, but again, you have the roles reversed. The DEFENDER is the Station owner, not the guy in the indy sneaking in and popping up some POSs just before dt or micromanaging the POS strontium so that it suits his timezone.
My understanding is that the reinforced mode was intended to give the POS owner time to defend the POS. That is not what it does now, so the game mechanics need to be fixed.
--
M. Corp.
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2006.07.28 10:03:00 -
[59]
I can't understand Lolka Volterra's demands?
TimeZone is equal advantage and disadvantage for both sides.
But if Coalition with 5000+ members from different countries can't cover 800 member Allaince of players from 1 country (most all of them from one time zone) then I don't know...
Maybe u should play counter strike with 5 min rounds?
I don't see the point in this demands in solving POS war conditions.
POS war is a strategic positional war that brings a lot of diversity in combat operation types..
Convoying, escorts, logistical strikes, blockades, guarella, siege, counterattacks, assaults.... various fleet operations.
Diversity is always good... Suggestions of Lolka Volterra will decrease the diversity of possible combat operations thats not good.
____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Karl Shade
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.28 12:25:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Obivan Efa
I can't understand Lolka Volterra's demands?
TimeZone is equal advantage and disadvantage for both sides.
But if Coalition with 5000+ members from different countries can't cover 800 member Allaince of players from 1 country (most all of them from one time zone) then I don't know...
Maybe u should play counter strike with 5 min rounds?
I don't see the point in this demands in solving POS war conditions.
POS war is a strategic positional war that brings a lot of diversity in combat operation types..
Convoying, escorts, logistical strikes, blockades, guarella, siege, counterattacks, assaults.... various fleet operations.
Diversity is always good... Suggestions of Lolka Volterra will decrease the diversity of possible combat operations thats not good.
DonŠt try to make this an LV thing. Our war with RA has given us an intensive lesson in the intricacies of POS warfare. The micromanagement allows a small number of players with sufficient supplies to lock sov in a system nearly indefenately.
POS warfare atm is static and constricting. Not attributes generally conductive to diversity.
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Daylorim
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 12:33:00 -
[61]
But POS are a little like stronghold, isn't it? I think devs want it not to blow up in an unique strike, but rather to be besieged.
And, as far as I know, siege have rarely been fast and fun 
*waits for the flame*
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Pastora
Russian SOBR
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.28 13:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Karl Shade
DonŠt try to make this an LV thing. Our war with RA has given us an intensive lesson in the intricacies of POS warfare. The micromanagement allows a small number of players with sufficient supplies to lock sov in a system nearly indefenately.
This has nothing to do with RA and LV, because you have been doing the same, so hush there.
Again, forgeting about our current war, the current system gives a chance for smaller corps/alliances to get their own space in 0.0. If the territory owner doesn't like to have enemy POS'es in their system, lock down the system, camp it, whatever, but don't try to bend the game rules to your own advantage only.
Your proposal comes down to the following:
1. The attacker chooses when he attacks the POS.
2. The attacker puts the POS into the reinforced mode.
3. POS stays in the reinforced mode e.g. 20 hours, then the attacked has 40 hours time window to destroy POS.
4. The attacker again can choose the time it suits only attacker within these 40 hours time window, while the defender will have to sit 40 hours non-stop to be sure to keep the POS alive.
Only attacker wins here! Nobody else. All that you want is just jump to the POS, click F1,F2,F2,whatever..., jump out, jump back again when the POS came out of the reinforced mode, click F1,F2,F3... again. Done.
And don't play a saint here, even if the defenders would keep their fleet online at the POS all these 40 hours, you would never attack unless you got twice or three times more pilots then the defenders. You have proved it hundreth times.
If there is going to be any change implemented, make it so that the attacker has no idea when the POS is coming out of the reinforced mode, unless they have spies in the corporation that manages the POS in question, i.e. only corporation (NOT evn alliance) members can see when the POS comes out of the reinforced mode.
_______________________________________________
If ifs and ands were pots and pans,
I would grow mushrooms in my pants. |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2006.07.28 13:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Pastora
Originally by: Karl Shade
DonŠt try to make this an LV thing. Our war with RA has given us an intensive lesson in the intricacies of POS warfare. The micromanagement allows a small number of players with sufficient supplies to lock sov in a system nearly indefenately.
This has nothing to do with RA and LV, because you have been doing the same, so hush there.
Yes, because it's basically THE viable tactic, and you need to use it. POSwars are static and boring.
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2006.07.28 14:17:00 -
[64]
War is not fun - it's hell...
POS war static?
POS it's not only protected tower - it's new logistical routes and convoy operations - this operations make possible blockades, hunter-killer operations, interceptions, scouting, ambush operations...
All this brings a lot of action to different ship types and make usefull new ship formations...
It's quite dramatic and dinamic to burst through blockade on ur damaged hawler and bring needed supplies... or hunt down such runner with ur fast frig.
There are a lot of such examples..
And it's not static - it's different from stupid "jump and destroy" doctrine... It makes possible to diverse war operations.
If u don't like it.. Play as pirate and camp near Imperial space - killing all u see...
____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Anara Serraph
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.28 14:48:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Your proposal comes down to the following:
1. The attacker chooses when he attacks the POS.
2. The attacker puts the POS into the reinforced mode.
3. POS stays in the reinforced mode e.g. 20 hours, then the attacker has 40 hours time window to destroy the POS.
4. The attacker again can choose the time it suits only attacker within these 40 hours time window, while the defender will have to sit 40 hours non-stop to be sure to keep the POS alive.
Only attacker wins here! Nobody else. All that you want is just jump to the POS, click F1,F2,F2,whatever..., jump out, jump back again when the POS came out of the reinforced mode, click F1,F2,F3... again. Done.
I see what your saying, denying the attacker the ability to know when the POS comes out of reinforced mode is a good way of balancing this.
I agree with what people are saying here that POS's should just be swep aside by a superior force but rather besieged.
So lets make it so POS's can actually be besieged:
Have it so that Cyno fields cannot be set up with 500km of a online POS also people who log out within this perimeter will not return here when the log back in.
Alow the option to warp to a POS at a distance about 250km which is outside the POS's defensive perimeter(if i recall correctly) but is also out of the attackers range so that the attacker can set up bubbles around the POS out of the range of its guns and try to stop the defenders from breaking the siege while the big guns attempt to take it down.
this would allow the defenders to decide the time that the POS comes out of Reinforced mode while giving the Attackers a better chance of stopping the defenders from refuelling the POS
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 15:53:00 -
[66]
Agreed Anara, the point of a siege is to cut off the position.
Carriers make even locking down a system completeley a pointless task.
Defenders can jump into the pos even in reinforced mode through the shield (Historical note opening castle gates wasnt a easy or simple task).
& of course even if the POS is invulnerable the guns still function perfectly. Your actually better keeping the POS in re-inforced mode :D
Because 5 days is a helluva long time.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.28 20:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Pastora
Edited by: Pastora on 28/07/2006 13:07:33
Originally by: Karl Shade
DonŠt try to make this an LV thing. Our war with RA has given us an intensive lesson in the intricacies of POS warfare. The micromanagement allows a small number of players with sufficient supplies to lock sov in a system nearly indefenately.
This has nothing to do with RA and LV, because you have been doing the same, so hush there.
Well said, I've been playing long enough to know that we or any other corporation or alliance in EVE can use the same tactics.
Originally by: Pastora
Again, forgeting about our current war, the current system gives a chance for smaller corps/alliances to get their own space in 0.0. If the territory owner doesn't like to have enemy POS'es in their system, lock down the system, camp it, put extra POS'es at other moons, whatever, but don't try to bend the game rules to your own advantage only.
Laying siege to a system and locking it down used to work pre-jump drive capital ships, it was and still is very time intensive, but when all the defender has to do is jump in a carrier full of fuel directly to the POS requiring the fuel it makes the siege pointless. The current POS warfare mechanics were designed pre-jump drive and there has to be a change somewhere to allow for this.
Originally by: Pastora
Your proposal comes down to the following:
1. The attacker chooses when he attacks the POS.
2. The attacker puts the POS into the reinforced mode.
3. POS stays in the reinforced mode e.g. 20 hours, then the attacker has 40 hours time window to destroy the POS.
4. The attacker again can choose the time it suits only attacker within these 40 hours time window, while the defender will have to sit 40 hours non-stop to be sure to keep the POS alive.
No, the 20 hours reinforced would stay as they are atm. If the defenders need 20 hours to get a defensive fleet together and decide for 20 hours of reinforced then they would have to defend it for 20 hours, agreed. But if you decide for 3 hours of reinforced, then you only have to defend it for 3 hours after it comes out of reinforced. before you are able to restock the strontium reserves.
Originally by: Pastora
Only attacker wins here! Nobody else. All that you want is just jump to the POS, click F1,F2,F2,whatever..., jump out, jump back again when the POS came out of the reinforced mode, click F1,F2,F3... again. Done.
Not really, it is extremely hard engaging a POS when there are defenders there, as has been proven on quite a few occasions.
Originally by: Pastora
In my opinion, EVE deserves more than that >> some brain usage and micromanagement, yes.
Hence this discussion.
Originally by: Pastora
And don't play a saint here, even if the defenders would keep their fleet online at the POS all these 40 hours, you would never attack unless you got twice or three times more pilots then the defenders. You have proved it hundreth times.
Even with 2-3 time the numbers, engaging a large "death star" POS is a dangerous thing to do when the defenders are there to assist the POS.
Originally by: Pastora
If there is going to be any change implemented, make it so that the attacker has no idea when the POS is coming out of the reinforced mode, unless they have spies in the corporation that manages the POS in question, i.e. only corporation (NOT evn alliance) members can see when the POS comes out of the reinforced mode.
I like it, removing the timer and just saying "REINFORCED" is a cool idea and should also be added to the mix.
Another thing that was suggested was that a POS that is put into reinforced mode should have it's sov timer reset to the full 5 days. I like the idea of the reset, but I think id should only be for 24 hours.
--
Mini Skill Planner |
KilleR 004
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:15:00 -
[68]
It is unfair how literally just 5/6 people can keep control of a system which has hundreds of people in it setup for pvp. |
BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:34:00 -
[69]
Originally by: KilleR 004
It is unfair how literally just 5/6 people can keep control of a system which has hundreds of people in it setup for pvp.
/signed
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.29 03:01:00 -
[70]
Then you need to consider fundermental changes to the POS mechanic. Like moving the guns outside the shield.
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:35:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Obivan Efa on 29/07/2006 08:36:19
Originally by: KilleR 004
It is unfair how literally just 5/6 people can keep control of a system which has hundreds of people in it setup for pvp.
Hahahaha....
Use 100 pilots with 10 dreads and 5/6 defenders will not be able to do smth...
That's the point of dread's war.
If u have 100 pilonts and u can't kill 1 POS with 5-6 defenders maybe u should mine low resources in Jita - not to take other ppls in...
P.S. Post with ur main
____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Papa Digger
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.29 13:19:00 -
[72]
Originally by: KilleR 004
It is unfair how literally just 5/6 people can keep control of a system which has hundreds of people in it setup for pvp.
Who can bring more energy? 100 stoker with coal or 5 operators of nuclear station?
Or you think, if battle winer will be those who bring more blob than opponent, game will be more interesting??
Maybe just remove POSes at all? Just bring 100 man in local and say "CLAIM IS MINE". Your changes just give full advantages to attacker and all. Time to strike, 25% shield without resists, and PLENTY time to finish POS. All POSes will be senseless with your changes.
----
CEO. |
BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:55:00 -
[73]
Edited by: BrerLapin on 29/07/2006 14:56:55
I dont understand why pos guns arent already out of the shield. If defenders cant fire out, how can the guns. Psuedo babble would say shield affinity, if the POS guns can be timed to fire through the shield why cant defenders ?
By the same token give hacking a role, allow a stealthed cloaker to approach & hack the shield allowing the attacking fleet to fire on the POS guns, but not the pos.
Actually while were on it that doesnt fix 6 people being able to defend against 100+. If it were me Id remove POS guns entirely & allow the defenders to shoot out.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.29 15:10:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Anara Serraph
As im sure you see the problem with the current system is that the defender can exploit the fact that you have to go to work tomorrow and while thats ok for the people who dont have to go to work for those of us who do there has to be a solution (other than syaing up all night and going to wotk tired)
Attacker can "exploit" the fact, that defender goes to work at some time.
Its balanced.
Taking out POS consists of two parts - to reinforced and out of reinforced.
In first stage, attacker chooses time.
In second stage, defender chooses time (if he was at the right time in POS to correct the stront ammount).
So, euther side has two battles in chosen time or two battles in wrong time.
---
Bookmark improvements
Player owned brokers |
Jaabaa Prime
Dental Drilling Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:33:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Its balanced.
It's not balanced when 200 players lock down a system and it is still possible to refuel POSs using capital ships jumping past the camp.
This is something that changed the way POS warfare is done and massively inbalanced it in favour of the defenders.
--
Mini Skill Planner |
Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:48:00 -
[76]
You shuld not be locking the system, but killing the POS at the moment of out-of-reinforced. It shuld be low on shields and without comparable fleet defending, shuld be dead soon, and refualing is possible after shield is on 50%, no?
---
Bookmark improvements
Player owned brokers |
BrerLapin
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.07.30 10:19:00 -
[77]
Carrier jumps in exits field reps POS wash rinse repeat.
note the carrier is under no threat as it can reneter fields & the POS guns are still online.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:49:00 -
[78]
Soooo
I undestand now carrier can lock tower being inside shields?
And it regens shields instantly, faster then 200 ships can damage them?
Thats a freakin deadly carrier :)
(We have 3 POSes to take out and I really hope You're wrong).
---
Bookmark improvements
Player owned brokers |
Komolov
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.08.01 10:44:00 -
[79]
Jaabbaa definitely won his cookie as a top whinner of that forum.
Why to type sooo much? Just kindly ask CCP to consider RA membership as an exploit and finally win by banning all of us from that game.
If you do not wish to show dedication and willpower and login whenever it's neccesary to have the job done - you do not deserve to be able to achieve a victory.
--------------------
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BrerLapin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.01 19:44:00 -
[80]
Ellaine - The carrier exits the shields, but bearing in mind you cant have your dread fleet online 23/7. & its problematic being on at 4am for people with jobs & lives.
Originally by: Market Scanner
Maybe CCP needs to remove all 3D models of NPC's and replace them with white 2D squares with the NPC's name typed in the square. I miss pong.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.01 20:07:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 01/08/2006 20:07:55
You have to be there in exact moment when POS goes off reinforced, not 23*7. This may, and probably will be a very unfortunate time for You, fact simply has to be taken in account when planning n attack - better it goes ofline on weekend unless You have enough RL jobless dread pilots. From the other side - if defender wuld want to prevent POS going to reinforced and loosing put access to hangars, industrial capabilities, ability to use missles and EW arrays, and power of keeping sovereignity, he wuld need to be there at exact time of Your attack. Wich, most likely, was in very unfortunate hours for him.
--- I do not advocate this because I defend my POS, just the oposite, we have serious problem with people defending their POSes with deadly efficiency. I simply think, that the system is rather fair. ---
---
Bookmark improvements
Player owned brokers |
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