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Wolverine PL Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.25 11:24:00 - [1] I have very crazy idea:) Lets change local chat as it is. make it like alliance chat, you apear after you type something. That way you have to use scanner to see who is in local. That way game will be much more interesting. No more XXX in local, everyone DOCK!!! as soon you jump to system:(
ian666 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:00:00 - [2] Agreed, but has been said over and over, Local needs a time delay or like you said
Asha Lucius	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:27:00 - [3] you have got to be kidding?
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:51:00 - [4] Originally by: Wolverine PL I have very crazy idea:) Lets change local chat as it is. make it like alliance chat, you apear after you type something. That way you have to use scanner to see who is in local. That way game will be much more interesting. No more XXX in local, everyone DOCK!!! as soon you jump to system:( And your detailed reasoning of why it is necessary to rip our core gameplay is? It's not interesting for GriefPK's to be invisible, for space to be empty and boring with no sign of anyone, for people to people to rely on spys to find each other, for blobwars to be slower for... 101 different issues, all of which need to be addressed before you can consider it.
Crumplecorn Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Maya Rkell GriefPK's I think this actually made me stupider when I read it. Anyway, OP suggestion (which is about as original as 'nerf stabs') + full system scanning and view = win. ----------
Maero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:57:00 - [6] I think the idea is for the scanner to play a bigger part coupled with a more realistic warning system instead of just a 'local' chat-like channel. I think if someone said something in a public frequency, his position should be broadcasted in some way.. even if it's just a 'general direction'. moo.
Ellaine TashMurkon Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2006.07.25 13:01:00 - [7] Many people wuld like to see no local, but more effective scanning/probing and more probing power for local soverignity or POS owners (scanning arrays etc). Maybe try that in new Jovian regions and see if people will be happy, how many will go there because theres no local and how many will avaid this area because theres no local? There is easy storyline explanation too; When You jump, You register yourself in gates computer systems, so FTL communications automagically put You in local channel. Jovians simply didnt care tu put such softwaer in gates :)
ian666 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:25:00 - [8] Edited by: ian666 on 25/07/2006 16:29:18 Yep not a bad idea about trailing the system with out tagging at the gates. The local is just unrealistic and makes it far to easy to hide, or avoid trouble, even if the person/persons are cloaked you still know that they are around. A better scanner would make it better as it show things to the lazy user on a plate they would have to look to see whos around not just have it given to them. Also I hear the some new probes will be able to detect cloaked ships so the requirement for the local nerf is a must, if you walk down a dark street your not sure whats there until its infront of you so why give them. Something like 0.0, Space No Local or you can type in there and it will show you up 0.1 to 0.4, A 5 Min delay until you show up in local 0.5 to 1.0, 1 min delay so that people who are following you can't see you in local as soon as they jump in.
codepic Mithril Inc Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:32:00 - [9] It's not the gates as you appear in local even if you didn't come through the gate. For example: - you pod jump -> you appear in local - you clone jump -> you appear in local - you come through cyno -> you appear in local To Wolverine PL's suggestion This is not a bad idea but if we just change the local, it would be disastrous. Even for Wolverine's gameplay. No more good fights for you. Ie. I DO wanna fight Wolv in something else than just a barge but with current gear and the local changed... hmmm... is it even possible. I would be basically ready to rip the whole mandatory "Local" away for the following changes: Better ship scanner More comprehensive set of scanning-related skills Removal of public & static belts. Meaning asteroid belts no more appear in the overview but you need to scan them out and warp to them. Once depleted, they respawn elsewhere. (this would force also Wolv to play a bit with the scanner before going in for a gank. Also, if correctly executed, this would make macro-mining mostly impossible) If we still want to keep the local so, that the stargates, cynos & cloning facilities track people going in & out, we could add something like the following: Ability to hack through a stargate without appearing in local Ability to use a scanner to find an escalating path by warping through the space between solarsystems. CCP would have hard time to remove or change the local. If they change it so, that people appear in local only if they speak, people start talking that "CCP is favoring pierats" or "CCP is selling more accounts than they can handle and they need to cache stuff so much they can't even make local work anymore". I would probably add the possibility to go between solar systems by scanning & warping plus hacking through stargates after they improve the scanning in general and make it possible for people to counter Wolv when he's coming. As not all of us want just to dock up and wait the pirate to get bored (although that is sometimes a good tactic)
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.25 17:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Crumplecorn Anyway, OP suggestion (which is about as original as 'nerf stabs') + full system scanning and view = win. There we go. Without buffed scanning, this is a bad idea, but if the new system scanner is more powerful, and we get a way to ID a ship from far away, it would work. FOr instance, you come in, you make a blanket scan, and discover that there are fifteen ships in the system. A refined scan reveals that five of them are active (the others being shuttles at POS or something). So you scan a little harder, and learn the ship types, etc. The most powerful info the local channel gives is the corp and alliance of the pilots present. Should the scanner be able to report that?
Maero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.25 17:29:00 - [11] i like the 'local as a chat should be dropped' sentiment in fact, i think all com should change to frequencies. like tcp/ip ports. known frequencies would take the role of help, alliance, corp, etc (long range). local com would be broadcasting on a common frequency range that all ships can pick up. if you listen to this, you should know where it comes from. unless of course it's tampered. [<coords>]<header>:<message> <coords> originating coordinates (bookmarkable/warpable link) depending on scanner range limit. (can be manipulated) <header> frequency/shipname/playername. (cannot be manipulated, no info link) regular com could abide by this syntax, and you could even be able to manipulate the coords with certain skills/modules. header manipulation would be too troublesome. this could even open up broadcasting scrambled/encrypted com. -you don't have a local list -you have broadcasted log. moo.
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.25 20:37:00 - [12] Not a good idea alone, and an improved scanner or an overview for long range would need to replace it but would become much the same thing. My vote would be for a 2nd overview that shows information on player vessels and such out to 15 AU or so. Then you;d have warning when a Pirate is warping in. But I'd rather just keep things as theyt are now. One of the best aspects of EVE is the way it pits players against players. But that type of play has to be _very_ carefully ballanced. As it stands a reasonably alert person watching local will be very, very difficult for a Pirate to catch. It is important to keep things this way because most people the pirate will be looking to hunt down will start that fight at a sever disadvantage, either from dammage from the Belt rats, or from having a ship not suited to combat. To get people to come into low sec they must know there are things they can do to make themselves safer. Otherwise you wind up with a Pirate saussage fest in low sec and all the PVE and PVPlight in empire in the noob corps mining veldspar. Making it difficult also rewards team play, or blobing. Which makes for epic fights and blatant ganks. Both have their place. And if a blob of Pirates or Anti-pi enter a system their targets deserve the minimal warning of Local, or something similar. As things stand now people who haven't read the guides will get jumped, people who have read the guides and put some skills into fighting will gaguge the threat of the new person in local and respond accordingly, people who are too focused on what they are doing will get jumped and Pirating remains a legitimate profession. If you take away the defensive tools then you swing the balance of non-consensual pvp combat in favor of the agressor. And since PVP is non-consentual it needs to very difficult for the agressor to find and smash targets. If you arnen't making enough ISK blast a belt rat every now and then, they'd shoot you..
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.25 20:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Maero I think the idea is for the scanner to play a bigger part coupled with a more realistic warning system instead of just a 'local' chat-like channel. That wasn't stated and so wasn't part of the idea. Ellaine, it's wildly over-rated how useful that will be, unless you're proposing that fleets pack a POS along. Certainly it'll reinforce static blobwars. A "delay" is purely a grief-ganker tool, and would serve them well. Reggie, again, not only was it not part of the op's suggestion, but having to hammer the scanner every 3 seconds will quickly get old. Moreeover, if you can get a count from a "crude" scan, that's ALL you need to know to log. "The most powerful info the local channel gives is the corp and alliance of the pilots present. Should the scanner be able to report that?" Shouldn't nerf local in the first place if you don't want to turn Eve into a faceless grey dangerzone, shrug.
Vera Nosfyu Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 21:24:00 - [14] Well, Wolverine, if you remove local how do you suggest we find targets? ----------------------------------------------------------- "Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin
Asha Lucius	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:01:00 - [15] IMHO this thread has gotten me thinking at work today... If i was to single out the least "Spacey" thing in Eve, it WOULD be the Chat window... unrealistic, in the way, reminiscent of an old style messenger service... this is supposed to be the future guys! I like the frequency idea a few posts back, but something a bit more straight-forward would mesh better; hailing ships as apposed to "/me waves", emergency system broadcasting with macroed messages "Requesting assistence at X gate, bring cookies". And a nice, futuristicky system scanner with fuzzy logistics "Ship detected in this area, not in visual range (so no details on ship model/armaments/pilot status etc)". It would give the pirates the annonymity they want, but give us "nice" peeps a heads up to whats sitting at that gate we need to get through. Realistic, and think of the tactics you could come up with; fooling scans by cutting engines or buying hacked modules to change your ships signature/IFF... maybe that last bits a bit Star-Warsy, but im sure u see what i mean :D It COULD work very well... whaddya think?
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Asha Lucius IMHO this thread has gotten me thinking at work today... If i was to single out the least "Spacey" thing in Eve, it WOULD be the Chat window... unrealistic, in the way, reminiscent of an old style messenger service... this is supposed to be the future guys! I like the frequency idea a few posts back, but something a bit more straight-forward would mesh better; hailing ships as apposed to "/me waves", emergency system broadcasting with macroed messages "Requesting assistence at X gate, bring cookies". And a nice, futuristicky system scanner with fuzzy logistics "Ship detected in this area, not in visual range (so no details on ship model/armaments/pilot status etc)". It would give the pirates the annonymity they want, but give us "nice" peeps a heads up to whats sitting at that gate we need to get through. Realistic, and think of the tactics you could come up with; fooling scans by cutting engines or buying hacked modules to change your ships signature/IFF... maybe that last bits a bit Star-Warsy, but im sure u see what i mean :D It COULD work very well... whaddya think? Again this would have us slamming the scanner button every 30 secconds, and that'd be anoying. The "local" represents two futuristic things 1) an update from the magic concord who's in the system tracker, something like that has to exist for them to slam our standing when they aren't arround, and 2) Broadcasts in the clear using the universal FTL comnet we all seem to have access to. Both are good, if not necessarily the most realistic, since it helps balance PVP and gives an easy way for members of the comunity to interact verbally w/o having to set up a ship to ship link (personal message/chat window) If we used the links to location Idea from the previous post people would be terified to speak since they could be blobed to death for answering a noob question. Take away the instant who is in zone and as I said before, people will flee low sec all togeather or play only in massive blobs for defense. I would be all for a nicer scanner though, something I could zoom in on a bit for those close togeather objects, perhaps a feature where gangs could triangulate the position of objects by working as a team. As opposed to 1 guy doing all the leg work with scan drones. You'd need a module for that I imagine though.
PC5 Bermuda Syndrome Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:55:00 - [17] Ive been having a word on this earlier... Ok lets see - i have local chanell. GREAT! I dont need scaning/covert ops/scouts/intel/friend(s) informations/knowledge/my own brain etc... ALL I HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT LOCAL CHAT! Im jumping in... first look at local 10 hostiles i know their names, got them in adressbook i know what they use to fly. ITS UBER INTEL. Only after looking at local i turn on my scanner. 90% of my intel goes from local list and 10% from scanner. CCP should do something about it because its overpowered badly. Id like to see local turned to constelation chanell.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 01:56:00 - [18] Yes, lots of people want to make it utterly inpossible to hide from alliances, to be able to find targets from systems away....
Jack Amarr Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.07.26 08:24:00 - [19] i don't think getting rid of local is such a brilliant idea, i just think there should be more boxes you have to tick to gain access to it. i think if its in empire then there should be a local chat channel because that would be possible seeing as there are stations to relay all the messages etc, but i think there should be no local chat whatso ever in 0.0 UNLESS there is a friendly pos/outpost/conq station because there is nothing for all the signals to relay off so that way, people defending their teritory would be able to tell if they were abotu to be attacked but the attacker would be going in blindfolde. i also think this would help allaince boarders become alot more solid. -------------------------------------------------- [INSIN]erate you foes
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 09:53:00 - [20] If local goes so does Piracy and alot of PvP with it.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 10:54:00 - [21] Edited by: Freyda on 26/07/2006 10:57:43 Local being gone would mean more reliance on mods and ship systems to find out who's in system right? That's sold the idea to me right there. I personally would like as many as possible tactical things reliant on in ship systems, from both a realism, a roleplay and a tactical and useful point of view. Though if local were ever to be changed, I'd think the way the scanner works would need to be updated. Otherwise people sitting in system for long periods would have to repeatedly click "scan" over and over to keep things updated, and while that would work.. it would surely get boring, tiring and just dull after a while. Oh oh oh.. an idea just spawned in my head. How about a long range sonar type device. It sends out long range 'pings' (the range depending on the level of the device you use). That detect the presence (but not the location) of ships in system. The device would have a really long cycle time, say a minute.. so someone could theoretically sneak in between sonar pings if they detect you in system. It would also be a high slot module that uses a lot of power grid, so things like barges and tech one haulers wouldn't be able to use them. So in low sec you would have to be reliant on mining op escort to keep sensors going. Also the slower elite haulers would finally have more point to them other than just taking longer before they pop. They'd be the only industrial with enough grid to fit these space sonar things. Edited after a second thought: Hmm... but if they took too much grid then frigates wouldn't be able to use them. I guess tech one industrials would too then! But still not on the barges though.. no barge pilot would sacrifice a whole strip miner to fit sensors
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 12:33:00 - [22] Jack Amarr, yea, solid as in "enter 0.0 and die". Freyda, tactics yes. But local isn't tactical, it's strategic. A MINUTE? I can check 2-3 belts in an interceptor in that time.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 12:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Maya Rkell Jack Amarr, yea, solid as in "enter 0.0 and die". Freyda, tactics yes. But local isn't tactical, it's strategic. A MINUTE? I can check 2-3 belts in an interceptor in that time. It's annoying is what local is, it makes it seem like people psychicly sense when people are around. I'm sorry to say this, but every other flight sim, mmo, and strategic game can survive without such a frustrating method of automatically knowing when people are around, and they get on just fine. I love eve to death, but I can't say this is a reason, I just kind of lived with it because there was other great stuff. The moment I heard other people hated it too, I jumped on their band wagon. And yes, the point would be to make it possible to jump in on someone unawares. Bare in mind in the vastness of space.. that's a lot.. you can scan 3 belts in a minute.. but amongst endless systems, with endless belts, that could take a very very long while. But it either way.. it's better than now.. people just warp into a lonely system.. see no one in local.. and carry on. they can auto check your history from a far and know your character age, your sec rating, and make a good guestimate about the likely amount of skill points your character has. That's a bit much really. It the very least we should be able to cut down the amount of info you can gather about someone unless you're in visual range.
Deakin Frost Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:02:00 - [24] If local is really supposed to go, then not before this game has an AWACS recon. That is a recon ship that gets live updates of numbers and positions of ships, possibly also ship type. Since that's never gonna happen, local is going to stay.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:14:00 - [25] Freyda, most games are not Eve, they're FAR smaller and don't have meaningful PvP. Shadowbane is the ONLY MMO equivalent, and there were ways to sense people in the same zone with track in that, as well as scouts flying and so on.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Maya Rkell Freyda, most games are not Eve, they're FAR smaller and don't have meaningful PvP. Shadowbane is the ONLY MMO equivalent, and there were ways to sense people in the same zone with track in that, as well as scouts flying and so on. And I'd be pro introduction of scouts, and pro introduction of real methods of finding ships. But in my opinion local is a silly way of auto detecting ships. "ah hah, I knew that miner was here, I can see here that he's joined this star system's chat room maniacal laughter" It's daft I tells you.
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:29:00 - [27] well if you get rid of local, get rid of map blobs as well. Honestly, am I the only person that thinks PvP/Piracy will be Drastically reduced by the removal of Local. I can whole heartedly see Why people want it, but I seriously dont think they realise the implications. Aside from that I love recieving the odd smack talk, it makes me chuckle.
high star	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:31:00 - [28] Fredya If you do not like the fact that by using local anyone get all the info on you and everyone else then rather than deleing local why not just delete the ' show info ' window when you right click on someone. This way you can only see whoÆs there and nothing else. Too me this would seem to solve both the for and against arguments
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:33:00 - [29] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd well if you get rid of local, get rid of map blobs as well. Honestly, am I the only person that thinks PvP/Piracy will be Drastically reduced by the removal of Local. I can whole heartedly see Why people want it, but I seriously dont think they realise the implications. Aside from that I love recieving the odd smack talk, it makes me chuckle. Well lets not go too far, I don't mind the piracy aspect, I'd just like local replace with better methods of searching for prey, with mods and maybe some ships (like recon and covert ops) getting distinct advantages at doing so. The sort of ship that already sits two steps ahead of the main fleet would additionally responsible for pulling in and relaying accurate sensor data.
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 14:45:00 - [30] Thats my whole point. I admit Local was never meant to be a hunting tool. But without it wou will jump into a system, Spend the next 30 mins Warping around, Then Move on to the next system. There will be no sporadic gate ganks. "No Hold On gate" When u see someone enter local, No Warp to belt VI -1. If you dont know someones in system with you you wont bother looking for them. Thats why it needs to stay.

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