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Riela Tanal Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.26 15:36:00 - [31] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Thats my whole point. I admit Local was never meant to be a hunting tool. But without it wou will jump into a system, Spend the next 30 mins Warping around, Then Move on to the next system. There will be no sporadic gate ganks. "No Hold On gate" When u see someone enter local, No Warp to belt VI -1. If you dont know someones in system with you you wont bother looking for them. Thats why it needs to stay. Once local is removed and the scanner is enhanced you can still find your targets its just not as easy as jumping and looking at a channel, pirates would have to work for their kills instead of instantly knowing how many, who you are, how old you are etc. A POS System Scanner would make them more viable for Alliance system control if that were to happen. Without local you would be forced to have scouts locating your targets, this will make force recons and covert ops alot more useful in terms of intel. Riela Tanal "Never underestimate the element of surprise"
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 15:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Riela Tanal Once local is removed and the scanner is enhanced you can still find your targets its just not as easy as jumping and looking at a channel, pirates would have to work for their kills instead of instantly knowing how many, who you are, how old you are etc. A POS System Scanner would make them more viable for Alliance system control if that were to happen. Without local you would be forced to have scouts locating your targets, this will make force recons and covert ops alot more useful in terms of intel. Exactly. Also people wouldn't be able to just use alts in shuttles to figure out who's in channel. That has always annoyed me too. If someones going to scout with an alt, they should at the least be made to learn some scouting skills .
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:06:00 - [33] Just let players close local. The reason you can see everyone on there is that everyone's "logged on" to local chat. So let local be closed, and then you neither derive the benefits from it nor expose yourself. Make it take a full minute to "reinitialize" local, and a full minute to log out, during which time you appear on local but cannot see it, so you can't pop into local like a prairie dog and scope it out. Decoys, stealth travel, normal local chat, it all becomes possible by just letting up close that dang window. And it gets rid of a source of annoyance in empire. And have "Log into local channel" on the right-click menu on your ship, so you don't have to root through the channels system every time you want to get into it.
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Just let players close local. The reason you can see everyone on there is that everyone's "logged on" to local chat. So let local be closed, and then you neither derive the benefits from it nor expose yourself. Make it take a full minute to "reinitialize" local, and a full minute to log out, during which time you appear on local but cannot see it, so you can't pop into local like a prairie dog and scope it out. Decoys, stealth travel, normal local chat, it all becomes possible by just letting up close that dang window. And it gets rid of a source of annoyance in empire. And have "Log into local channel" on the right-click menu on your ship, so you don't have to root through the channels system every time you want to get into it. This is the 1st solution that would actually work w/o making low and no sec a empty wasteland. For those of you wanting local to leave, remember 1st it's the primary way people in the same system can say, "hi" This being a social game I like that rather a lot. I'll happily chat with the miners or the Pirates because interacting with other people is one of the major reasons we have the MM in MMO. For those of you wanting to kill it, what you don't like is the information it provides. First, it does not provide the ship type of the person you are viewing. It gives you their name, bio, race desc, employment hist, corp and sec status. From this information you can usually guess Pirate/Miner/Anti-Pi.. but not with certanty and certainly not if there is any disinformation in the Bio of the player or the Corp. 2nd, getting the information takes time. you have to open a window or two or three if you want corp and alliance info for every single person in the system. If you take too long looking you can be caught because you should have been moving. 3rd. Miners and haulers and young players and solo players _will not_ enter low security systems if they do not feel there is some measure of safty. They will stay in Hi-sec and the whole game will suffer. When they do come calling on low sec it will be only in expendable nothings, and huge blobs, and they will race from gate to gate till they get where they are going. This will drasticly hurt PVP.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Just let players close local. i.e. the very first advice a player will EVER get is "close local", and that's it. It's a simple remove local forever from everywhere idea, and has all the flaws. You'd have to be downright stupid to use local under your system. You reveal yourself for zero return, because the only people in itwill be the odd disposable scout alt looking for people that silly. Where are the discussions of how to handle the consequences? That is what needs to be laid out, in full, with compensation or reasons not to, saying "kill local now and forever" is easy. It's also easy to list what will happen with the current mechanisms: ganks by cloaked recons everywhere, fleet warfare gets even more static and boring, GriefPK's can't be seen and gank far more, 0.0/lowsec gets abandoned in drones, Eve becomes a grey faceless riskland, people stop mining and NPCing because hitting the scanner every 3 seconds is boring, etc. We allready HAVE scouts (the map LIES). We allready HAVE decoys ("hey, there's a scout here") And "normal local chat" per your system is "silence, forever".
Master OlavPancrazio	Posted - 2006.07.26 18:40:00 - [36] Although I agree with removing local, as it doesn't make sense in a space game to give such free recon. Maya has some good points. Removal of local would have to be done with several modifications to the game to make sure it doesn't become "bad". A few ideas come to my mind: -active radar systems -ancorable radar stations that can scan an entire system and show the owner if ships are detected jumping in
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.27 02:25:00 - [37] The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% I think people want local to be replaced with something else a little more in game. (eg, module based)
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 02:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Freyda The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% Freyda, I'd suggest you re-read then. If people don't offer an alternative, that's all we can do - if it not typed, it dosn't exist as a balance idea.
PC5 Bermuda Syndrome Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.27 10:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Although I agree with removing local, as it doesn't make sense in a space game to give such free recon. Maya has some good points. Removal of local would have to be done with several modifications to the game to make sure it doesn't become "bad". A few ideas come to my mind: -active radar systems -ancorable radar stations that can scan an entire system and show the owner if ships are detected jumping in I like idea of active radar systems. Maybe a covert ops would have a new role? Its an intel ship so it should be fine.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.27 10:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Freyda The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% Freyda, I'd suggest you re-read then. If people don't offer an alternative, that's all we can do - if it not typed, it dosn't exist as a balance idea. People did... several times.. I was one of them.
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.27 11:46:00 - [41] So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? The idea that you know whose in system should not be changed. An alternative would be for cloaked ships to dissapear from local chat.
Deakin Frost Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.27 12:26:00 - [42] Edited by: Deakin Frost on 27/07/2006 12:27:05 Originally by: PC5 I like idea of active radar systems. Maybe a covert ops would have a new role? Its an intel ship so it should be fine. The covert ops gets already to use the recon scanprobe launcher. So if local was to be replaced with an AWACS module, it should be for the recon only. If shared, it should remove cloaking capability from the covops but retain it on the recon. Originally by: Jon Engel So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? New system scanning is going to fix "really good" safespots.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 12:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Jon Engel So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? The idea that you know whose in system should not be changed. An alternative would be for cloaked ships to dissapear from local chat. It sounds like a boring war, everybody just go to safesspot while the war is on. Well I can asure you that in 0.0 space where we have non stop war's we will not just sitt at safes all the time. Local chat must be nerfed. It whould be nice if they gave the cov op new ability that the pilot would not appear in local right away and if he cloaks within that time he will stay unseen in local. And all other cloaked ships shouldent show up in local if they are cloaked.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 13:00:00 - [44] Cloaked ships not showing in local is a PURE griefPK idea designed to allow easy ganks. And no, 0.0 wars are allready boring and static, REQUIRING spys on both sides to detail the fleets before any engagements happen is not an advance.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 13:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Digiblast on 27/07/2006 13:19:39 Originally by: Maya Rkell Cloaked ships not showing in local is a PURE griefPK idea designed to allow easy ganks. And no, 0.0 wars are allready boring and static, REQUIRING spys on both sides to detail the fleets before any engagements happen is not an advance. Cov op's are like a Ball. If u see a ball role of the streat you know that there is a kid coming after it. So we all know when we see a player enter local and we can't scan what he's in We start assume he's in a Cov op ship and have few buddys behind him. Or even a fleet of Haulers that are waiting for the command to jump and move on. This dosent only aid PURE griefPK this could be theyr worst nightmare and because of the local I knew when to strike. Imagen all the traps you could make for thouse guys. Once I was watching few pirates in Amamake on my cov op, every time they entered local they started to warp to the belts at 15km. They where about 10 togather. Next time they came I fitted my BS with smartbombs at warped to the next belt I knew they whould go to. In Fact I landed at the same time as they and 8 sec later they where all dead. I even podded few of them because they stayed to long so I got little - sec. But I guess you are the carebear type of a guy and only the the loss advantage you gain.
Wild Rho Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.27 14:16:00 - [46] Without local alliances would have to actually have a proper defence in their asteroid belts when on larger mining ops. Wouldn't that just be bonkers eh? WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 15:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Digiblast on 27/07/2006 15:17:48 I think that theyr fleet should be defending the miners rather then expanding theyr borders and runing around like they don't need to be in theyr space until some huge enemy blob comes and tryes to claim theyr systems.
Ellaine TashMurkon Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2006.07.27 16:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 27/07/2006 16:43:50 Lack of effective invasion detection systems makes gate camping the only valid way of teritorial defense. And gate camping is about most boring thing in the universe, especially if target passes gate two times in day. And its also not funny for guests. Patrols and chases are more fun :) Active radar systems and POS radars are just perfect :)
Master OlavPancrazio	Posted - 2006.07.27 16:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 27/07/2006 16:48:13 Yes, more good points about local. Local removes the real need to group when doing farming activities. Since you have instant recon, all you have to do in any type of ship is warp to a SS once local jumps up. By the way when I meant active radar systems, I meant instead of having a ship scanner on every ship that you had to press some stupid scan button when you wanted to check if theres any ships around, it does it for you in a little window near the overview -- automatically so you can npc/mine without fear of pressing scan every 5 seconds. The radar system would resemble some type of regular graphic of a radar system they use in any space game, blips and dots.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 17:36:00 - [50] Digiblast, I'm discussing a no-local situation. You don't know the covert's there. Moreover, you can't tell what ANYONE's in unless they're within scan range. And no, I can't imagine the traps because they wouldn't be there. Anything of any value won't be moved that way because of the risks. Systems like Amamake become utter deadzones. It's not WORTH traveling through there unless you're in a combat ship blob. Better to go 30 jumps more. "But I guess you are the carebear type of a guy" Ahaha. I'm a PvPer, primarily. Wild Rho, and what is that defence? Oh, there is no. It's IMPOSSIBLE to defend mining ships against attackers. Hence, NO mining ops outside the outpost systems with ships on each gates. Yea. Ellaine, gate camping becomes FAR more critically important without local. Morover, you need people on it 23/7, because it's the only real way to keep raiders our of your space. POS systems are drastically overrated for what people think they will do, and "active radar" will need to be a zero-cost option for every ship, or you end up with gangs being forced into set roles - if it's only a cruiser module, for example, the wolfpack is stone cold DEAD. Local is all that permits a civilian 0.0 population AT ALL. Master OlavPancrazio, so it basically macro's the refesh for you. Right. And instead of USEFUL imformation it shows blips when it's time to log because that could be anything. Right.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 18:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Maya Rkell You don't know the covert's there. Moreover, you can't tell what ANYONE's in unless they're within scan range. That you can't either with the local stil there. You only know that they are at a gate or not on the gate you came in from, but your know they number's. Originally by: Maya Rkell And no, I can't imagine the traps because they wouldn't be there. Anything of any value won't be moved that way because of the risks. You sound like you know it all. Nobody will know how this will be like if the local will be taken. But I'm sure it whould spice up the game play. Originally by: Maya Rkell Systems like Amamake become utter deadzones. It's not WORTH traveling through there unless you're in a combat ship blob. Better to go 30 jumps more. Taking Shortcuts whould be even more deadly Maybe. But also very deadly for a Pirate to live in. Originally by: Maya Rkell Wild Rho, and what is that defence? Oh, there is no. It's IMPOSSIBLE to defend mining ships against attackers. Hence, NO mining ops outside the outpost systems with ships on each gates. Yea. They should and will just learn how 2 if it's needed. Originally by: Maya Rkell Ellaine, gate camping becomes FAR more critically important without local. Morover, you need people on it 23/7, because it's the only real way to keep raiders our of your space. Maya I guess u have seen the future of this so I hope you are right.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 18:40:00 - [52] There are resonable predictions which can be made from the avaliable data. I'm using examples, and pointing to situations in other games. That's the key. "I'm sure" dosn't cut it for core gameplay and a system which, mishandled, could kill Eve. There is NO way to defend a fragile ship. Before your remote modules can active, it's DEAD. A T1 frigate gang could take out MANY times its numbers unless your entire fleet is sitting there and lags them out so much that you can kill them as they warp in. Won't get much mining done in that lag, mind you. And you're ASKING for forced 23/7 gatecamps, far more static warfare, the death of the scout in favour of the spy, and so on. Great. I don't.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 19:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Maya Rkell There are resonable predictions which can be made from the avaliable data. I'm using examples, and pointing to situations in other games. That's the key. What other Games have a local chat that has so strong effect on the game play like eve? Originally by: Maya Rkell There is NO way to defend a fragile ship. Before your remote modules can active, it's DEAD. A T1 frigate gang could take out MANY times its numbers unless your entire fleet is sitting there and lags them out so much that you can kill them as they warp in. Won't get much mining done in that lag, mind you. Everybody that watched the Alliance tourny saw that you can keep fragil ship alive against heavy fire. So it isent impossyble. And about the t1 frig gang I can't comment on since I don't know what they are up against. Originally by: Maya Rkell And you're ASKING for forced 23/7 gatecamps, far more static warfare, the death of the scout in favour of the spy, and so on. Great. I don't. I'm not asking for forced gatecamps 23/7. But if they want to let them. I asked for nerf on the local chat.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 20:44:00 - [54] Digiblast, the chat function is incidental. There are equivalents to the data gathering in most games where it matters, even Shadowbane has the track skill and flying lookouts and so on. "Alliance tourny" ... Is not REMOTELY like normal PvP. The restrictions and limits make the results only relevant to itself. And those are still PvP ships, with resistances and toughness far above those of the industralists's ships. You asked for something, and there are implications of it. The requirement to camp is one of those....you cannot realistically use the space without a HARD block on people enteirng it with no local, otherwise your industrialists will die. A lot.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 21:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Maya Rkell Shadowbane has the track skill and flying lookouts and so on. Flying lookouts could be the cov op's and interdictors pilots job + while they use theyr Scanner(tracking skills). Originally by: Maya Rkell "Alliance tourny" ... Is not REMOTELY like normal PvP. The restrictions and limits make the results only relevant to itself. And those are still PvP ships, with resistances and toughness far above those of the industralists's ships. Anyway players that have cov op or scouts at the gate whould be able to alert the miners. Easy. And if they fall a sleep at the guard or leave then of course that whould make it risky to mine. This goes the same for gate campers. Blobs and all that. Originally by: Maya Rkell You asked for something, and there are implications of it. The requirement to camp is one of those....you cannot realistically use the space without a HARD block on people enteirng it with no local, otherwise your industrialists will die. A lot. Maybe, maybe not.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 21:38:00 - [56] The scanner needs refreshing every 3 seconds. No other game does that, it autoupdates or has a far longer effective range. And yes, you leave that as the ONLY other alternative - scouts and an immediate log. Is that what you want to encourage? That you'll NEVER be able to kill them? Because that's what you're talking about..if you force it, and it's a pain, then that's what they WILL do. And there is no "maybe" on that, it's as hard and cold as it gets.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Maya Rkell The scanner needs refreshing every 3 seconds. No other game does that, it autoupdates or has a far longer effective range. Hey that's one of the things that makes EVE diffrent then any other game Be happy about that. Play other games if you dont like that. Originally by: Maya Rkell And yes, you leave that as the ONLY other alternative - scouts and an immediate log. Is that what you want to encourage? That you'll NEVER be able to kill them? Because that's what you're talking about..if you force it, and it's a pain, then that's what they WILL do. Cov op's never die? They Die if they do mistakes. You can stay alive in one and anyother ship if you know handle your game play. Originally by: Maya Rkell And there is no "maybe" on that, it's as hard and cold as it gets. I say maybe if there is no way to be able to be sure what will happen.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:38:00 - [58] No, nerfing local and making the scanner a grind isn't positive. The UI in general is a mess and needs drastic improvement. It's probably the weakest single point Eve has, now. And no, the miners will never die. They'll log..you'll never as much as scan them. And you need to look at other games and especially MUD's, and learn their lessons.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.28 15:52:00 - [59] Maya, why is it that in your perfect visions of the future every miner has a scout for each gate and everybody has a huge support group just watching out for pirates? Give some more thought to the idea of closing local. If pirates aren't in local, then the carebears can be there with no trouble, since the pirates can't see it. I would still use local chat except when I was actually in a combat gang with proper comms available, and I suspect that many others would, too. Heck, in high-sec empire there's no reason to fear detection unless you're at war, so local would continue to be a useful tool for new or casual players. And miners and ratters will always venture out on their own to seek profits. I can make enough in an afternoon of ratting that if I get killed once a week I can replace my ship, my fitting and my clone with no difficulty. I get killed considerably less frequently than once a week, and so I continue to put myself in a position of limited vulnerability. If some pirate in an interceptor decides to come bust up my Raven, he'll get some nice T2 loot and a killmail. I knowingly and willingly put myself in that position. I don't get in alliance chat and ask six guy to jump in CovOps and scout adjacent gates for me. Your slippery slope arguments are becoming tiresome. What are you trying to accomplish, anyway? You've argued that it'll be both too easy to hide and too easy to catch people unawares. You loathe the current system, and every proposed change, and... yourself? Emo forum posting ftw.
Olleg Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.08 13:25:00 - [60] Local chat must be kept but player list must be removed from it. Local chat is very unreal now. Local chat simulate radio communication in solar system. It's good. For instance I always can say "Mayday" to any in solar system. But if I keep radio silence noone can detect me with simple radio. With special detectors, probes, radar may be. But not with simple radio communicator. Remove player list from local chat. This will remove thousands rows from buddy lists with enemies.

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