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Wolverine PL Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.25 11:24:00 - [1] I have very crazy idea:) Lets change local chat as it is. make it like alliance chat, you apear after you type something. That way you have to use scanner to see who is in local. That way game will be much more interesting. No more XXX in local, everyone DOCK!!! as soon you jump to system:(
ian666 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:00:00 - [2] Agreed, but has been said over and over, Local needs a time delay or like you said
Asha Lucius	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:27:00 - [3] you have got to be kidding?
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:51:00 - [4] Originally by: Wolverine PL I have very crazy idea:) Lets change local chat as it is. make it like alliance chat, you apear after you type something. That way you have to use scanner to see who is in local. That way game will be much more interesting. No more XXX in local, everyone DOCK!!! as soon you jump to system:( And your detailed reasoning of why it is necessary to rip our core gameplay is? It's not interesting for GriefPK's to be invisible, for space to be empty and boring with no sign of anyone, for people to people to rely on spys to find each other, for blobwars to be slower for... 101 different issues, all of which need to be addressed before you can consider it.
Crumplecorn Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Maya Rkell GriefPK's I think this actually made me stupider when I read it. Anyway, OP suggestion (which is about as original as 'nerf stabs') + full system scanning and view = win. ----------
Maero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.25 12:57:00 - [6] I think the idea is for the scanner to play a bigger part coupled with a more realistic warning system instead of just a 'local' chat-like channel. I think if someone said something in a public frequency, his position should be broadcasted in some way.. even if it's just a 'general direction'. moo.
Ellaine TashMurkon Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2006.07.25 13:01:00 - [7] Many people wuld like to see no local, but more effective scanning/probing and more probing power for local soverignity or POS owners (scanning arrays etc). Maybe try that in new Jovian regions and see if people will be happy, how many will go there because theres no local and how many will avaid this area because theres no local? There is easy storyline explanation too; When You jump, You register yourself in gates computer systems, so FTL communications automagically put You in local channel. Jovians simply didnt care tu put such softwaer in gates :)
ian666 Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:25:00 - [8] Edited by: ian666 on 25/07/2006 16:29:18 Yep not a bad idea about trailing the system with out tagging at the gates. The local is just unrealistic and makes it far to easy to hide, or avoid trouble, even if the person/persons are cloaked you still know that they are around. A better scanner would make it better as it show things to the lazy user on a plate they would have to look to see whos around not just have it given to them. Also I hear the some new probes will be able to detect cloaked ships so the requirement for the local nerf is a must, if you walk down a dark street your not sure whats there until its infront of you so why give them. Something like 0.0, Space No Local or you can type in there and it will show you up 0.1 to 0.4, A 5 Min delay until you show up in local 0.5 to 1.0, 1 min delay so that people who are following you can't see you in local as soon as they jump in.
codepic Mithril Inc Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:32:00 - [9] It's not the gates as you appear in local even if you didn't come through the gate. For example: - you pod jump -> you appear in local - you clone jump -> you appear in local - you come through cyno -> you appear in local To Wolverine PL's suggestion This is not a bad idea but if we just change the local, it would be disastrous. Even for Wolverine's gameplay. No more good fights for you. Ie. I DO wanna fight Wolv in something else than just a barge but with current gear and the local changed... hmmm... is it even possible. I would be basically ready to rip the whole mandatory "Local" away for the following changes: Better ship scanner More comprehensive set of scanning-related skills Removal of public & static belts. Meaning asteroid belts no more appear in the overview but you need to scan them out and warp to them. Once depleted, they respawn elsewhere. (this would force also Wolv to play a bit with the scanner before going in for a gank. Also, if correctly executed, this would make macro-mining mostly impossible) If we still want to keep the local so, that the stargates, cynos & cloning facilities track people going in & out, we could add something like the following: Ability to hack through a stargate without appearing in local Ability to use a scanner to find an escalating path by warping through the space between solarsystems. CCP would have hard time to remove or change the local. If they change it so, that people appear in local only if they speak, people start talking that "CCP is favoring pierats" or "CCP is selling more accounts than they can handle and they need to cache stuff so much they can't even make local work anymore". I would probably add the possibility to go between solar systems by scanning & warping plus hacking through stargates after they improve the scanning in general and make it possible for people to counter Wolv when he's coming. As not all of us want just to dock up and wait the pirate to get bored (although that is sometimes a good tactic)
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.25 17:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Crumplecorn Anyway, OP suggestion (which is about as original as 'nerf stabs') + full system scanning and view = win. There we go. Without buffed scanning, this is a bad idea, but if the new system scanner is more powerful, and we get a way to ID a ship from far away, it would work. FOr instance, you come in, you make a blanket scan, and discover that there are fifteen ships in the system. A refined scan reveals that five of them are active (the others being shuttles at POS or something). So you scan a little harder, and learn the ship types, etc. The most powerful info the local channel gives is the corp and alliance of the pilots present. Should the scanner be able to report that?
Maero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.25 17:29:00 - [11] i like the 'local as a chat should be dropped' sentiment in fact, i think all com should change to frequencies. like tcp/ip ports. known frequencies would take the role of help, alliance, corp, etc (long range). local com would be broadcasting on a common frequency range that all ships can pick up. if you listen to this, you should know where it comes from. unless of course it's tampered. [<coords>]<header>:<message> <coords> originating coordinates (bookmarkable/warpable link) depending on scanner range limit. (can be manipulated) <header> frequency/shipname/playername. (cannot be manipulated, no info link) regular com could abide by this syntax, and you could even be able to manipulate the coords with certain skills/modules. header manipulation would be too troublesome. this could even open up broadcasting scrambled/encrypted com. -you don't have a local list -you have broadcasted log. moo.
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.25 20:37:00 - [12] Not a good idea alone, and an improved scanner or an overview for long range would need to replace it but would become much the same thing. My vote would be for a 2nd overview that shows information on player vessels and such out to 15 AU or so. Then you;d have warning when a Pirate is warping in. But I'd rather just keep things as theyt are now. One of the best aspects of EVE is the way it pits players against players. But that type of play has to be _very_ carefully ballanced. As it stands a reasonably alert person watching local will be very, very difficult for a Pirate to catch. It is important to keep things this way because most people the pirate will be looking to hunt down will start that fight at a sever disadvantage, either from dammage from the Belt rats, or from having a ship not suited to combat. To get people to come into low sec they must know there are things they can do to make themselves safer. Otherwise you wind up with a Pirate saussage fest in low sec and all the PVE and PVPlight in empire in the noob corps mining veldspar. Making it difficult also rewards team play, or blobing. Which makes for epic fights and blatant ganks. Both have their place. And if a blob of Pirates or Anti-pi enter a system their targets deserve the minimal warning of Local, or something similar. As things stand now people who haven't read the guides will get jumped, people who have read the guides and put some skills into fighting will gaguge the threat of the new person in local and respond accordingly, people who are too focused on what they are doing will get jumped and Pirating remains a legitimate profession. If you take away the defensive tools then you swing the balance of non-consensual pvp combat in favor of the agressor. And since PVP is non-consentual it needs to very difficult for the agressor to find and smash targets. If you arnen't making enough ISK blast a belt rat every now and then, they'd shoot you..
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.25 20:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Maero I think the idea is for the scanner to play a bigger part coupled with a more realistic warning system instead of just a 'local' chat-like channel. That wasn't stated and so wasn't part of the idea. Ellaine, it's wildly over-rated how useful that will be, unless you're proposing that fleets pack a POS along. Certainly it'll reinforce static blobwars. A "delay" is purely a grief-ganker tool, and would serve them well. Reggie, again, not only was it not part of the op's suggestion, but having to hammer the scanner every 3 seconds will quickly get old. Moreeover, if you can get a count from a "crude" scan, that's ALL you need to know to log. "The most powerful info the local channel gives is the corp and alliance of the pilots present. Should the scanner be able to report that?" Shouldn't nerf local in the first place if you don't want to turn Eve into a faceless grey dangerzone, shrug.
Vera Nosfyu Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.25 21:24:00 - [14] Well, Wolverine, if you remove local how do you suggest we find targets? ----------------------------------------------------------- "Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin
Asha Lucius	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:01:00 - [15] IMHO this thread has gotten me thinking at work today... If i was to single out the least "Spacey" thing in Eve, it WOULD be the Chat window... unrealistic, in the way, reminiscent of an old style messenger service... this is supposed to be the future guys! I like the frequency idea a few posts back, but something a bit more straight-forward would mesh better; hailing ships as apposed to "/me waves", emergency system broadcasting with macroed messages "Requesting assistence at X gate, bring cookies". And a nice, futuristicky system scanner with fuzzy logistics "Ship detected in this area, not in visual range (so no details on ship model/armaments/pilot status etc)". It would give the pirates the annonymity they want, but give us "nice" peeps a heads up to whats sitting at that gate we need to get through. Realistic, and think of the tactics you could come up with; fooling scans by cutting engines or buying hacked modules to change your ships signature/IFF... maybe that last bits a bit Star-Warsy, but im sure u see what i mean :D It COULD work very well... whaddya think?
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Asha Lucius IMHO this thread has gotten me thinking at work today... If i was to single out the least "Spacey" thing in Eve, it WOULD be the Chat window... unrealistic, in the way, reminiscent of an old style messenger service... this is supposed to be the future guys! I like the frequency idea a few posts back, but something a bit more straight-forward would mesh better; hailing ships as apposed to "/me waves", emergency system broadcasting with macroed messages "Requesting assistence at X gate, bring cookies". And a nice, futuristicky system scanner with fuzzy logistics "Ship detected in this area, not in visual range (so no details on ship model/armaments/pilot status etc)". It would give the pirates the annonymity they want, but give us "nice" peeps a heads up to whats sitting at that gate we need to get through. Realistic, and think of the tactics you could come up with; fooling scans by cutting engines or buying hacked modules to change your ships signature/IFF... maybe that last bits a bit Star-Warsy, but im sure u see what i mean :D It COULD work very well... whaddya think? Again this would have us slamming the scanner button every 30 secconds, and that'd be anoying. The "local" represents two futuristic things 1) an update from the magic concord who's in the system tracker, something like that has to exist for them to slam our standing when they aren't arround, and 2) Broadcasts in the clear using the universal FTL comnet we all seem to have access to. Both are good, if not necessarily the most realistic, since it helps balance PVP and gives an easy way for members of the comunity to interact verbally w/o having to set up a ship to ship link (personal message/chat window) If we used the links to location Idea from the previous post people would be terified to speak since they could be blobed to death for answering a noob question. Take away the instant who is in zone and as I said before, people will flee low sec all togeather or play only in massive blobs for defense. I would be all for a nicer scanner though, something I could zoom in on a bit for those close togeather objects, perhaps a feature where gangs could triangulate the position of objects by working as a team. As opposed to 1 guy doing all the leg work with scan drones. You'd need a module for that I imagine though.
PC5 Bermuda Syndrome Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.25 23:55:00 - [17] Ive been having a word on this earlier... Ok lets see - i have local chanell. GREAT! I dont need scaning/covert ops/scouts/intel/friend(s) informations/knowledge/my own brain etc... ALL I HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT LOCAL CHAT! Im jumping in... first look at local 10 hostiles i know their names, got them in adressbook i know what they use to fly. ITS UBER INTEL. Only after looking at local i turn on my scanner. 90% of my intel goes from local list and 10% from scanner. CCP should do something about it because its overpowered badly. Id like to see local turned to constelation chanell.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 01:56:00 - [18] Yes, lots of people want to make it utterly inpossible to hide from alliances, to be able to find targets from systems away....
Jack Amarr Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.07.26 08:24:00 - [19] i don't think getting rid of local is such a brilliant idea, i just think there should be more boxes you have to tick to gain access to it. i think if its in empire then there should be a local chat channel because that would be possible seeing as there are stations to relay all the messages etc, but i think there should be no local chat whatso ever in 0.0 UNLESS there is a friendly pos/outpost/conq station because there is nothing for all the signals to relay off so that way, people defending their teritory would be able to tell if they were abotu to be attacked but the attacker would be going in blindfolde. i also think this would help allaince boarders become alot more solid. -------------------------------------------------- [INSIN]erate you foes
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 09:53:00 - [20] If local goes so does Piracy and alot of PvP with it.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 10:54:00 - [21] Edited by: Freyda on 26/07/2006 10:57:43 Local being gone would mean more reliance on mods and ship systems to find out who's in system right? That's sold the idea to me right there. I personally would like as many as possible tactical things reliant on in ship systems, from both a realism, a roleplay and a tactical and useful point of view. Though if local were ever to be changed, I'd think the way the scanner works would need to be updated. Otherwise people sitting in system for long periods would have to repeatedly click "scan" over and over to keep things updated, and while that would work.. it would surely get boring, tiring and just dull after a while. Oh oh oh.. an idea just spawned in my head. How about a long range sonar type device. It sends out long range 'pings' (the range depending on the level of the device you use). That detect the presence (but not the location) of ships in system. The device would have a really long cycle time, say a minute.. so someone could theoretically sneak in between sonar pings if they detect you in system. It would also be a high slot module that uses a lot of power grid, so things like barges and tech one haulers wouldn't be able to use them. So in low sec you would have to be reliant on mining op escort to keep sensors going. Also the slower elite haulers would finally have more point to them other than just taking longer before they pop. They'd be the only industrial with enough grid to fit these space sonar things. Edited after a second thought: Hmm... but if they took too much grid then frigates wouldn't be able to use them. I guess tech one industrials would too then! But still not on the barges though.. no barge pilot would sacrifice a whole strip miner to fit sensors
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 12:33:00 - [22] Jack Amarr, yea, solid as in "enter 0.0 and die". Freyda, tactics yes. But local isn't tactical, it's strategic. A MINUTE? I can check 2-3 belts in an interceptor in that time.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 12:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Maya Rkell Jack Amarr, yea, solid as in "enter 0.0 and die". Freyda, tactics yes. But local isn't tactical, it's strategic. A MINUTE? I can check 2-3 belts in an interceptor in that time. It's annoying is what local is, it makes it seem like people psychicly sense when people are around. I'm sorry to say this, but every other flight sim, mmo, and strategic game can survive without such a frustrating method of automatically knowing when people are around, and they get on just fine. I love eve to death, but I can't say this is a reason, I just kind of lived with it because there was other great stuff. The moment I heard other people hated it too, I jumped on their band wagon. And yes, the point would be to make it possible to jump in on someone unawares. Bare in mind in the vastness of space.. that's a lot.. you can scan 3 belts in a minute.. but amongst endless systems, with endless belts, that could take a very very long while. But it either way.. it's better than now.. people just warp into a lonely system.. see no one in local.. and carry on. they can auto check your history from a far and know your character age, your sec rating, and make a good guestimate about the likely amount of skill points your character has. That's a bit much really. It the very least we should be able to cut down the amount of info you can gather about someone unless you're in visual range.
Deakin Frost Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:02:00 - [24] If local is really supposed to go, then not before this game has an AWACS recon. That is a recon ship that gets live updates of numbers and positions of ships, possibly also ship type. Since that's never gonna happen, local is going to stay.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:14:00 - [25] Freyda, most games are not Eve, they're FAR smaller and don't have meaningful PvP. Shadowbane is the ONLY MMO equivalent, and there were ways to sense people in the same zone with track in that, as well as scouts flying and so on.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Maya Rkell Freyda, most games are not Eve, they're FAR smaller and don't have meaningful PvP. Shadowbane is the ONLY MMO equivalent, and there were ways to sense people in the same zone with track in that, as well as scouts flying and so on. And I'd be pro introduction of scouts, and pro introduction of real methods of finding ships. But in my opinion local is a silly way of auto detecting ships. "ah hah, I knew that miner was here, I can see here that he's joined this star system's chat room maniacal laughter" It's daft I tells you.
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:29:00 - [27] well if you get rid of local, get rid of map blobs as well. Honestly, am I the only person that thinks PvP/Piracy will be Drastically reduced by the removal of Local. I can whole heartedly see Why people want it, but I seriously dont think they realise the implications. Aside from that I love recieving the odd smack talk, it makes me chuckle.
high star	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:31:00 - [28] Fredya If you do not like the fact that by using local anyone get all the info on you and everyone else then rather than deleing local why not just delete the ' show info ' window when you right click on someone. This way you can only see whoÆs there and nothing else. Too me this would seem to solve both the for and against arguments
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:33:00 - [29] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd well if you get rid of local, get rid of map blobs as well. Honestly, am I the only person that thinks PvP/Piracy will be Drastically reduced by the removal of Local. I can whole heartedly see Why people want it, but I seriously dont think they realise the implications. Aside from that I love recieving the odd smack talk, it makes me chuckle. Well lets not go too far, I don't mind the piracy aspect, I'd just like local replace with better methods of searching for prey, with mods and maybe some ships (like recon and covert ops) getting distinct advantages at doing so. The sort of ship that already sits two steps ahead of the main fleet would additionally responsible for pulling in and relaying accurate sensor data.
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.07.26 14:45:00 - [30] Thats my whole point. I admit Local was never meant to be a hunting tool. But without it wou will jump into a system, Spend the next 30 mins Warping around, Then Move on to the next system. There will be no sporadic gate ganks. "No Hold On gate" When u see someone enter local, No Warp to belt VI -1. If you dont know someones in system with you you wont bother looking for them. Thats why it needs to stay.
Riela Tanal Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.26 15:36:00 - [31] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Thats my whole point. I admit Local was never meant to be a hunting tool. But without it wou will jump into a system, Spend the next 30 mins Warping around, Then Move on to the next system. There will be no sporadic gate ganks. "No Hold On gate" When u see someone enter local, No Warp to belt VI -1. If you dont know someones in system with you you wont bother looking for them. Thats why it needs to stay. Once local is removed and the scanner is enhanced you can still find your targets its just not as easy as jumping and looking at a channel, pirates would have to work for their kills instead of instantly knowing how many, who you are, how old you are etc. A POS System Scanner would make them more viable for Alliance system control if that were to happen. Without local you would be forced to have scouts locating your targets, this will make force recons and covert ops alot more useful in terms of intel. Riela Tanal "Never underestimate the element of surprise"
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.26 15:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Riela Tanal Once local is removed and the scanner is enhanced you can still find your targets its just not as easy as jumping and looking at a channel, pirates would have to work for their kills instead of instantly knowing how many, who you are, how old you are etc. A POS System Scanner would make them more viable for Alliance system control if that were to happen. Without local you would be forced to have scouts locating your targets, this will make force recons and covert ops alot more useful in terms of intel. Exactly. Also people wouldn't be able to just use alts in shuttles to figure out who's in channel. That has always annoyed me too. If someones going to scout with an alt, they should at the least be made to learn some scouting skills .
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:06:00 - [33] Just let players close local. The reason you can see everyone on there is that everyone's "logged on" to local chat. So let local be closed, and then you neither derive the benefits from it nor expose yourself. Make it take a full minute to "reinitialize" local, and a full minute to log out, during which time you appear on local but cannot see it, so you can't pop into local like a prairie dog and scope it out. Decoys, stealth travel, normal local chat, it all becomes possible by just letting up close that dang window. And it gets rid of a source of annoyance in empire. And have "Log into local channel" on the right-click menu on your ship, so you don't have to root through the channels system every time you want to get into it.
Galan Amarias	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Just let players close local. The reason you can see everyone on there is that everyone's "logged on" to local chat. So let local be closed, and then you neither derive the benefits from it nor expose yourself. Make it take a full minute to "reinitialize" local, and a full minute to log out, during which time you appear on local but cannot see it, so you can't pop into local like a prairie dog and scope it out. Decoys, stealth travel, normal local chat, it all becomes possible by just letting up close that dang window. And it gets rid of a source of annoyance in empire. And have "Log into local channel" on the right-click menu on your ship, so you don't have to root through the channels system every time you want to get into it. This is the 1st solution that would actually work w/o making low and no sec a empty wasteland. For those of you wanting local to leave, remember 1st it's the primary way people in the same system can say, "hi" This being a social game I like that rather a lot. I'll happily chat with the miners or the Pirates because interacting with other people is one of the major reasons we have the MM in MMO. For those of you wanting to kill it, what you don't like is the information it provides. First, it does not provide the ship type of the person you are viewing. It gives you their name, bio, race desc, employment hist, corp and sec status. From this information you can usually guess Pirate/Miner/Anti-Pi.. but not with certanty and certainly not if there is any disinformation in the Bio of the player or the Corp. 2nd, getting the information takes time. you have to open a window or two or three if you want corp and alliance info for every single person in the system. If you take too long looking you can be caught because you should have been moving. 3rd. Miners and haulers and young players and solo players _will not_ enter low security systems if they do not feel there is some measure of safty. They will stay in Hi-sec and the whole game will suffer. When they do come calling on low sec it will be only in expendable nothings, and huge blobs, and they will race from gate to gate till they get where they are going. This will drasticly hurt PVP.
Maya Rkell Corsets and Carebears	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Just let players close local. i.e. the very first advice a player will EVER get is "close local", and that's it. It's a simple remove local forever from everywhere idea, and has all the flaws. You'd have to be downright stupid to use local under your system. You reveal yourself for zero return, because the only people in itwill be the odd disposable scout alt looking for people that silly. Where are the discussions of how to handle the consequences? That is what needs to be laid out, in full, with compensation or reasons not to, saying "kill local now and forever" is easy. It's also easy to list what will happen with the current mechanisms: ganks by cloaked recons everywhere, fleet warfare gets even more static and boring, GriefPK's can't be seen and gank far more, 0.0/lowsec gets abandoned in drones, Eve becomes a grey faceless riskland, people stop mining and NPCing because hitting the scanner every 3 seconds is boring, etc. We allready HAVE scouts (the map LIES). We allready HAVE decoys ("hey, there's a scout here") And "normal local chat" per your system is "silence, forever".
Master OlavPancrazio	Posted - 2006.07.26 18:40:00 - [36] Although I agree with removing local, as it doesn't make sense in a space game to give such free recon. Maya has some good points. Removal of local would have to be done with several modifications to the game to make sure it doesn't become "bad". A few ideas come to my mind: -active radar systems -ancorable radar stations that can scan an entire system and show the owner if ships are detected jumping in
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.27 02:25:00 - [37] The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% I think people want local to be replaced with something else a little more in game. (eg, module based)
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 02:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Freyda The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% Freyda, I'd suggest you re-read then. If people don't offer an alternative, that's all we can do - if it not typed, it dosn't exist as a balance idea.
PC5 Bermuda Syndrome Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.27 10:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Although I agree with removing local, as it doesn't make sense in a space game to give such free recon. Maya has some good points. Removal of local would have to be done with several modifications to the game to make sure it doesn't become "bad". A few ideas come to my mind: -active radar systems -ancorable radar stations that can scan an entire system and show the owner if ships are detected jumping in I like idea of active radar systems. Maybe a covert ops would have a new role? Its an intel ship so it should be fine.
Freyda	Posted - 2006.07.27 10:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Freyda The thing is I don't think anyone here want's local to be gone 100% Freyda, I'd suggest you re-read then. If people don't offer an alternative, that's all we can do - if it not typed, it dosn't exist as a balance idea. People did... several times.. I was one of them.
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.27 11:46:00 - [41] So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? The idea that you know whose in system should not be changed. An alternative would be for cloaked ships to dissapear from local chat.
Deakin Frost Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.27 12:26:00 - [42] Edited by: Deakin Frost on 27/07/2006 12:27:05 Originally by: PC5 I like idea of active radar systems. Maybe a covert ops would have a new role? Its an intel ship so it should be fine. The covert ops gets already to use the recon scanprobe launcher. So if local was to be replaced with an AWACS module, it should be for the recon only. If shared, it should remove cloaking capability from the covops but retain it on the recon. Originally by: Jon Engel So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? New system scanning is going to fix "really good" safespots.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 12:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Jon Engel So all that would happen during wars is you fly around for hours looking for people you can't find because they have a pair of realy good safespots? The idea that you know whose in system should not be changed. An alternative would be for cloaked ships to dissapear from local chat. It sounds like a boring war, everybody just go to safesspot while the war is on. Well I can asure you that in 0.0 space where we have non stop war's we will not just sitt at safes all the time. Local chat must be nerfed. It whould be nice if they gave the cov op new ability that the pilot would not appear in local right away and if he cloaks within that time he will stay unseen in local. And all other cloaked ships shouldent show up in local if they are cloaked.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 13:00:00 - [44] Cloaked ships not showing in local is a PURE griefPK idea designed to allow easy ganks. And no, 0.0 wars are allready boring and static, REQUIRING spys on both sides to detail the fleets before any engagements happen is not an advance.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 13:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Digiblast on 27/07/2006 13:19:39 Originally by: Maya Rkell Cloaked ships not showing in local is a PURE griefPK idea designed to allow easy ganks. And no, 0.0 wars are allready boring and static, REQUIRING spys on both sides to detail the fleets before any engagements happen is not an advance. Cov op's are like a Ball. If u see a ball role of the streat you know that there is a kid coming after it. So we all know when we see a player enter local and we can't scan what he's in We start assume he's in a Cov op ship and have few buddys behind him. Or even a fleet of Haulers that are waiting for the command to jump and move on. This dosent only aid PURE griefPK this could be theyr worst nightmare and because of the local I knew when to strike. Imagen all the traps you could make for thouse guys. Once I was watching few pirates in Amamake on my cov op, every time they entered local they started to warp to the belts at 15km. They where about 10 togather. Next time they came I fitted my BS with smartbombs at warped to the next belt I knew they whould go to. In Fact I landed at the same time as they and 8 sec later they where all dead. I even podded few of them because they stayed to long so I got little - sec. But I guess you are the carebear type of a guy and only the the loss advantage you gain.
Wild Rho Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.27 14:16:00 - [46] Without local alliances would have to actually have a proper defence in their asteroid belts when on larger mining ops. Wouldn't that just be bonkers eh? WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 15:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Digiblast on 27/07/2006 15:17:48 I think that theyr fleet should be defending the miners rather then expanding theyr borders and runing around like they don't need to be in theyr space until some huge enemy blob comes and tryes to claim theyr systems.
Ellaine TashMurkon Em Pack HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2006.07.27 16:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 27/07/2006 16:43:50 Lack of effective invasion detection systems makes gate camping the only valid way of teritorial defense. And gate camping is about most boring thing in the universe, especially if target passes gate two times in day. And its also not funny for guests. Patrols and chases are more fun :) Active radar systems and POS radars are just perfect :)
Master OlavPancrazio	Posted - 2006.07.27 16:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 27/07/2006 16:48:13 Yes, more good points about local. Local removes the real need to group when doing farming activities. Since you have instant recon, all you have to do in any type of ship is warp to a SS once local jumps up. By the way when I meant active radar systems, I meant instead of having a ship scanner on every ship that you had to press some stupid scan button when you wanted to check if theres any ships around, it does it for you in a little window near the overview -- automatically so you can npc/mine without fear of pressing scan every 5 seconds. The radar system would resemble some type of regular graphic of a radar system they use in any space game, blips and dots.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 17:36:00 - [50] Digiblast, I'm discussing a no-local situation. You don't know the covert's there. Moreover, you can't tell what ANYONE's in unless they're within scan range. And no, I can't imagine the traps because they wouldn't be there. Anything of any value won't be moved that way because of the risks. Systems like Amamake become utter deadzones. It's not WORTH traveling through there unless you're in a combat ship blob. Better to go 30 jumps more. "But I guess you are the carebear type of a guy" Ahaha. I'm a PvPer, primarily. Wild Rho, and what is that defence? Oh, there is no. It's IMPOSSIBLE to defend mining ships against attackers. Hence, NO mining ops outside the outpost systems with ships on each gates. Yea. Ellaine, gate camping becomes FAR more critically important without local. Morover, you need people on it 23/7, because it's the only real way to keep raiders our of your space. POS systems are drastically overrated for what people think they will do, and "active radar" will need to be a zero-cost option for every ship, or you end up with gangs being forced into set roles - if it's only a cruiser module, for example, the wolfpack is stone cold DEAD. Local is all that permits a civilian 0.0 population AT ALL. Master OlavPancrazio, so it basically macro's the refesh for you. Right. And instead of USEFUL imformation it shows blips when it's time to log because that could be anything. Right.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 18:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Maya Rkell You don't know the covert's there. Moreover, you can't tell what ANYONE's in unless they're within scan range. That you can't either with the local stil there. You only know that they are at a gate or not on the gate you came in from, but your know they number's. Originally by: Maya Rkell And no, I can't imagine the traps because they wouldn't be there. Anything of any value won't be moved that way because of the risks. You sound like you know it all. Nobody will know how this will be like if the local will be taken. But I'm sure it whould spice up the game play. Originally by: Maya Rkell Systems like Amamake become utter deadzones. It's not WORTH traveling through there unless you're in a combat ship blob. Better to go 30 jumps more. Taking Shortcuts whould be even more deadly Maybe. But also very deadly for a Pirate to live in. Originally by: Maya Rkell Wild Rho, and what is that defence? Oh, there is no. It's IMPOSSIBLE to defend mining ships against attackers. Hence, NO mining ops outside the outpost systems with ships on each gates. Yea. They should and will just learn how 2 if it's needed. Originally by: Maya Rkell Ellaine, gate camping becomes FAR more critically important without local. Morover, you need people on it 23/7, because it's the only real way to keep raiders our of your space. Maya I guess u have seen the future of this so I hope you are right.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 18:40:00 - [52] There are resonable predictions which can be made from the avaliable data. I'm using examples, and pointing to situations in other games. That's the key. "I'm sure" dosn't cut it for core gameplay and a system which, mishandled, could kill Eve. There is NO way to defend a fragile ship. Before your remote modules can active, it's DEAD. A T1 frigate gang could take out MANY times its numbers unless your entire fleet is sitting there and lags them out so much that you can kill them as they warp in. Won't get much mining done in that lag, mind you. And you're ASKING for forced 23/7 gatecamps, far more static warfare, the death of the scout in favour of the spy, and so on. Great. I don't.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 19:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Maya Rkell There are resonable predictions which can be made from the avaliable data. I'm using examples, and pointing to situations in other games. That's the key. What other Games have a local chat that has so strong effect on the game play like eve? Originally by: Maya Rkell There is NO way to defend a fragile ship. Before your remote modules can active, it's DEAD. A T1 frigate gang could take out MANY times its numbers unless your entire fleet is sitting there and lags them out so much that you can kill them as they warp in. Won't get much mining done in that lag, mind you. Everybody that watched the Alliance tourny saw that you can keep fragil ship alive against heavy fire. So it isent impossyble. And about the t1 frig gang I can't comment on since I don't know what they are up against. Originally by: Maya Rkell And you're ASKING for forced 23/7 gatecamps, far more static warfare, the death of the scout in favour of the spy, and so on. Great. I don't. I'm not asking for forced gatecamps 23/7. But if they want to let them. I asked for nerf on the local chat.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 20:44:00 - [54] Digiblast, the chat function is incidental. There are equivalents to the data gathering in most games where it matters, even Shadowbane has the track skill and flying lookouts and so on. "Alliance tourny" ... Is not REMOTELY like normal PvP. The restrictions and limits make the results only relevant to itself. And those are still PvP ships, with resistances and toughness far above those of the industralists's ships. You asked for something, and there are implications of it. The requirement to camp is one of those....you cannot realistically use the space without a HARD block on people enteirng it with no local, otherwise your industrialists will die. A lot.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 21:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Maya Rkell Shadowbane has the track skill and flying lookouts and so on. Flying lookouts could be the cov op's and interdictors pilots job + while they use theyr Scanner(tracking skills). Originally by: Maya Rkell "Alliance tourny" ... Is not REMOTELY like normal PvP. The restrictions and limits make the results only relevant to itself. And those are still PvP ships, with resistances and toughness far above those of the industralists's ships. Anyway players that have cov op or scouts at the gate whould be able to alert the miners. Easy. And if they fall a sleep at the guard or leave then of course that whould make it risky to mine. This goes the same for gate campers. Blobs and all that. Originally by: Maya Rkell You asked for something, and there are implications of it. The requirement to camp is one of those....you cannot realistically use the space without a HARD block on people enteirng it with no local, otherwise your industrialists will die. A lot. Maybe, maybe not.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 21:38:00 - [56] The scanner needs refreshing every 3 seconds. No other game does that, it autoupdates or has a far longer effective range. And yes, you leave that as the ONLY other alternative - scouts and an immediate log. Is that what you want to encourage? That you'll NEVER be able to kill them? Because that's what you're talking about..if you force it, and it's a pain, then that's what they WILL do. And there is no "maybe" on that, it's as hard and cold as it gets.
Digiblast Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Maya Rkell The scanner needs refreshing every 3 seconds. No other game does that, it autoupdates or has a far longer effective range. Hey that's one of the things that makes EVE diffrent then any other game Be happy about that. Play other games if you dont like that. Originally by: Maya Rkell And yes, you leave that as the ONLY other alternative - scouts and an immediate log. Is that what you want to encourage? That you'll NEVER be able to kill them? Because that's what you're talking about..if you force it, and it's a pain, then that's what they WILL do. Cov op's never die? They Die if they do mistakes. You can stay alive in one and anyother ship if you know handle your game play. Originally by: Maya Rkell And there is no "maybe" on that, it's as hard and cold as it gets. I say maybe if there is no way to be able to be sure what will happen.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:38:00 - [58] No, nerfing local and making the scanner a grind isn't positive. The UI in general is a mess and needs drastic improvement. It's probably the weakest single point Eve has, now. And no, the miners will never die. They'll log..you'll never as much as scan them. And you need to look at other games and especially MUD's, and learn their lessons.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.07.28 15:52:00 - [59] Maya, why is it that in your perfect visions of the future every miner has a scout for each gate and everybody has a huge support group just watching out for pirates? Give some more thought to the idea of closing local. If pirates aren't in local, then the carebears can be there with no trouble, since the pirates can't see it. I would still use local chat except when I was actually in a combat gang with proper comms available, and I suspect that many others would, too. Heck, in high-sec empire there's no reason to fear detection unless you're at war, so local would continue to be a useful tool for new or casual players. And miners and ratters will always venture out on their own to seek profits. I can make enough in an afternoon of ratting that if I get killed once a week I can replace my ship, my fitting and my clone with no difficulty. I get killed considerably less frequently than once a week, and so I continue to put myself in a position of limited vulnerability. If some pirate in an interceptor decides to come bust up my Raven, he'll get some nice T2 loot and a killmail. I knowingly and willingly put myself in that position. I don't get in alliance chat and ask six guy to jump in CovOps and scout adjacent gates for me. Your slippery slope arguments are becoming tiresome. What are you trying to accomplish, anyway? You've argued that it'll be both too easy to hide and too easy to catch people unawares. You loathe the current system, and every proposed change, and... yourself? Emo forum posting ftw.
Olleg Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.08 13:25:00 - [60] Local chat must be kept but player list must be removed from it. Local chat is very unreal now. Local chat simulate radio communication in solar system. It's good. For instance I always can say "Mayday" to any in solar system. But if I keep radio silence noone can detect me with simple radio. With special detectors, probes, radar may be. But not with simple radio communicator. Remove player list from local chat. This will remove thousands rows from buddy lists with enemies.

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