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An idea to counter the ishtar without any further nerfing

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Wingzero Mileghere Cascading Failure Un.Bound 2	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:25:00 - [1] - Quote I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1225	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:34:00 - [2] - Quote Wingzero Mileghere wrote: I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high Train time and cost are not balancing factor. No ship need to be overpowered no matter what reason you want to make up for it.
Iain Cariaba 255	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:39:00 - [3] - Quote There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Arronicus Caldari Navy Reconnaissance 1121	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:47:00 - [4] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. If this was an effective solution, it would already be employed. However, when 60 ishtars are facing off against 80 battleships, and each ishtar can carry what, 3 sets of sentries? Ignoring the fact that the battleships are going to miss a reasonable number of their shots against sentries (even while the sentries are almost stationary, the battleships will not be), in the time that it takes the battleships to shoot down through any reasonable amount of the sentries to where many of the ishtars have less than 5 remaining, a large portion of the battleship fleet will be dead. Now, if you could actually get on top of the ishtar blob with a gang of smartbombers, then at least you can work on popping the swarm like that, but simply shooting them is completely impractical. So no, there is not already a wonderful module to counter drones with a range of over ~7km. Now, I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but a potentially very simple and clean solution would be that when a ship is jammed, it cannot delegate drones (makes sense too, since you'd be jamming its ability to communicate with the other ship for its drones). Could also allow sensor dampeners to affect drone control range, which would also work to the same end. Small modifications like the two I suggested will allow for more versatile ewar ships, and prevent fewer balance problems, as opposed to the heavy-handed, shi+s broke, we need a new module/ship fix.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1242	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:54:00 - [5] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc
Kell Braugh Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:56:00 - [6] - Quote From what I've noticed, most the allegations for Ishtars being overpowered has been focused more on sentry drones (especially when the tracking bonus of the ishtar is applied) than the ship hull itself. I think that is where you may want to start your ideas on balance. If the doctrine-of-the-month fleet ishtar was bringing heavies, people would just park a disco BS and call it a done job. Not sure if bombs are even a very good balancing mechanic against sentries tbh. Sure you are shoot the drones, but the ability of those drones in the first place ~may~ be out of balance, especially when it means you have to chew through the combined EHP of 5x Sentries (or up to 15x since they can keep deploying them as you kill them) and the ship itself to end incoming damage.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:31:00 - [7] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. This is the most hilarious argument for how Ishtars and drones are balanced. If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. The only time this is somewhat effective is bombers vs. sentries. And that only works in nullsec.
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:12:00 - [8] - Quote Would dropping the MWD role bonus for a 50(25)% drone control range bonus help? I understand it gives them longer range, but it makes the main ship more vulnerable. If the main ship dies it's drones won't be causing problems. Much more effective then being forced to try and kill drones without buffing their drone abilities too hard.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 680	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:18:00 - [9] - Quote After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it.
Christopher Mabata Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 174	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:30:00 - [10] - Quote Agreed, weve already nerfed the ishtar back into a reasonable realm of use. Countinued crying about it is the result of bad counter doctrines, lack of coordination, or just down right bad luck. Ishtar fleets are dying people, if someone can do it so can you Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it. LOL so your Ishtar fleet couldn't burn through carrier reps and that SOMEHOW lead you to the conclusion that Ishtars are balanced? You people are off your rockers. You realize it's possible to armor tank your Ishtar, right? Sentry bombing only viable in Nullsec, try again. If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far?
Iain Cariaba 256	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:14:00 - [12] - Quote Phaade wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it. LOL so your Ishtar fleet couldn't burn through carrier reps and that SOMEHOW lead you to the conclusion that Ishtars are balanced? You people are off your rockers. You realize it's possible to armor tank your Ishtar, right? Sentry bombing only viable in Nullsec, try again. If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Three examples and you decide to nit-pick one, and that somehow lead you to believe you know what you're talking about? Troll much? You realize an armor tanked Ishtar has crap dps from sentries, right? By up to near half. If you're not in null, why are you engaging fleets of Ishtars? There's nothing for you to lose by not engaging. Ishtars are the most represented HAC in fleets because the current meta supports alpha doctrines for large engagements, and Ishtars are far more mobile a platform for that than anything else. Bottom line is that Ishtar fleets are not the OP platform your uninformed opinion seems to believe provided you fly smart. If you're camping a lowsec gate and an Ishtar fleet shows up on the other side, it's your own damn fault if you stick around for them to kill. Ishtar fleets, like any other fleet, is all about keeping an advantage. However, if those roaming fleets don't ever get fights because all their prey vanishes when they come in, those fleets will either break up into more managable numbers, or will reship into something else to get fights. Arronicus wrote: However, when 60 ishtars are facing off against 80 battleships, and each ishtar can carry what, 3 sets of sentries? Ignoring the fact that the battleships are going to miss a reasonable number of their shots against sentries (even while the sentries are almost stationary, the battleships will not be), in the time that it takes the battleships to shoot down through any reasonable amount of the sentries to where many of the ishtars have less than 5 remaining, a large portion of the battleship fleet will be dead. This is just a bad example of a bad tactic. If you have 80 battleships, why are you not taking out logi and trying to alpha the Ishtars off the field? Doesn't matter how many drones it carries if you blap it. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 476	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:17:00 - [13] - Quote Phaade wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. This is the most hilarious argument for how Ishtars and drones are balanced. If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. The only time this is somewhat effective is bombers vs. sentries. And that only works in nullsec. I am thinking they are thinking since it works in AT sometimes so its all good. Problem is in AT most I am seeing is a 3 core Ishtar comp. then 3 worms, couple eos's usually. Its when the other side bring quite a few more you have issues outside the AT system. Ain't no points limit outside the AT system. Nor are there bannings of ships lol.
Khiluale Zotakibe Thermal Collision Consortium 11	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:45:00 - [14] - Quote Hmmm... What about if there would be a bandwidth disruptor kind of EW module that would break connection between the ship and the drones. Thus making the pilot have to reconnect to them?
Christopher Mabata Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 174	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:58:00 - [15] - Quote Khiluale Zotakibe wrote: Hmmm... What about if there would be a bandwidth disruptor kind of EW module that would break connection between the ship and the drones. Thus making the pilot have to reconnect to them? Thats been proposed and beaten to death more times than i can count. I dont now why it never gets implemented, maybe the code is a bit too complex or something, dunno im not really that well versed in coding. That or it could be too easy to exploit, who knows i would look up one of the prior posts and read the logic, but lazy Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á
Sigras Conglomo 840	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:03:00 - [16] - Quote Rowells wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc The only case that you have made is that sentry drone HP should be reduced, and possibly their sig radius should be a bit larger. Also im assuming that you have never heard of bombs or smartbombs? because sentry drones tend not to move much and thus are prime targets for this strategy. Ishtars give up mobility when they deploy sentry drones, er rather they choose to give up mobility or lose their drones. That is a HUGE disadvantage. if YOU cannot find a way to capitalize on that massive disadvantage then that is a problem with YOU not the weapon system
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 461	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:26:00 - [17] - Quote Sigras wrote: Rowells wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc The only case that you have made is that sentry drone HP should be reduced, and possibly their sig radius should be a bit larger. Also im assuming that you have never heard of bombs or smartbombs? because sentry drones tend not to move much and thus are prime targets for this strategy. Ishtars give up mobility when they deploy sentry drones, er rather they choose to give up mobility or lose their drones. That is a HUGE disadvantage. if YOU cannot find a way to capitalize on that massive disadvantage then that is a problem with YOU not the weapon system Have you ever even engaged/flown an ishtar? They give up no mobility. They drop drones and burn away. You kill a drone they drop another this goes on now their drones are spread around you all doing dps. This is all with 621 dps with 2 damage mods with an 30+km optimal +18 falloff 2484 alpha 0.04 tracking Diemos same setup 250mm rails 523dps with 9km optimal +23 falloff (alpha isnt important here) 0.03 tracking Muninn 370dps 11km optimal 22km falloff 3175 alpha 0.04 tracking ( i havent got the new Eft so im not sure about the new tracking values which is why ive left them vague) Yes drones have their disadvantages and advantages but atm the stats are very skewed in the ishtars favour. The ishtar Does more damage than rails with a huge range advantage Does almost twice the damage of Artys with a huge range advantage and isnt far behind in alpha(not even mentioning those artys taking up almost 80% of the Powergrid on the ship)
Sigras Conglomo 840	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:38:00 - [18] - Quote so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 9239	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:43:00 - [19] - Quote "further nerfing"? You act like it was nerfed in the first place. The changes were largely inconsequential, and CCP knows it. They even admitted as much that they were trying not to rock the boat. More will come. Bet on it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2136	Posted - 2014.08.28 02:59:00 - [20] - Quote Hopefully they completely ruin drones again so everyone can resume bitching about ECM being too powerful .. after it's counter has been wrecked completely. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2137	Posted - 2014.08.28 03:07:00 - [21] - Quote Phaade wrote: If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. Out of curiosity, do those drones cost more then your ship? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Valleria Darkmoon Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel 315	Posted - 2014.08.28 04:06:00 - [22] - Quote I've seen smartbombing mallers get close to wiping out entire waves of sentries and single one putting the flight into armor by the time primary was switched and we actually killed that brick. 2 or 3 would have easily killed the entire blob of sentries. If you want to do it optimally get a warp in on the sentries and use a mobile depot to refit two active hardners for the damage type of the drones on field (what else are Ishtars going to do to you...shoot?) and fit smartbombs for the same damage type as the drones since your smart bombing ships will be hitting each other. All you need is tank, smartbombs and cap and even on a very quick try fitting a Maller I can get one that using this philosophy against bouncers will tank almost 170k damage straight explosive with 93.4% resist to explosive using a pair of heated T2 hardners. This is unlinked and unslaved, even adding in links takes it over 200k. Even if they die, that's that much damage not being taken by others in the fleet and it is really easy and not costly to have extra smartbombing mallers around. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Iain Cariaba 259	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:00:00 - [23] - Quote Valleria Darkmoon wrote: I've seen smartbombing mallers get close to wiping out entire waves of sentries and single one putting the flight into armor by the time primary was switched and we actually killed that brick. 2 or 3 would have easily killed the entire blob of sentries. If you want to do it optimally get a warp in on the sentries and use a mobile depot to refit two active hardners for the damage type of the drones on field (what else are Ishtars going to do to you...shoot?) and fit smartbombs for the same damage type as the drones since your smart bombing ships will be hitting each other. All you need is tank, smartbombs and cap and even on a very quick try fitting a Maller I can get one that using this philosophy against bouncers will tank almost 170k damage straight explosive with 93.4% resist to explosive using a pair of heated T2 hardners. This is unlinked and unslaved, even adding in links takes it over 200k. Even if they die, that's that much damage not being taken by others in the fleet and it is really easy and not costly to have extra smartbombing mallers around. This ^^ Just because OP and supporters aren't imaginative enough to counter an Ishtar fleet on their own, the problem lies in the Ishtar. Unfortunatly, OP and his ilk are just going to ignore any and all advice while simply spewing numbers straight out of EFT as if EFT were the end all of EvE performance variables. Yes, Ishtars are powerful, but they can be countered rather easily if you know what you're doing. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 9243	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:14:00 - [24] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Yes, Ishtars are powerful, but they can be countered rather easily if you know what you're doing. Ah, yes, the smartbomb Maller, mainstay of any actual fleet doctrine, ever. Hell, I'll go ahead and assume that isn't an obvious troll. So, if I have to sacrifice a pilot to maybe get a set of drones into armor, let's say I need two pilots to take out a flight of them. How many flights are typically fielded? So, I need 2 pilots * number of flights fielded + regular fleet dps + logi. And plus, I will probably more than a few sets of smartbombers, since most perceptive FCs will call for scatter as soon as they see what's going on, so I will have to have different teams chasing them down. And you think that's cool, right? [edit: And hell's bells, you do realize that a strategy of burning directly towards them means that I will be getting wrecked with zero transversal with every shot, right? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1485	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:15:00 - [25] - Quote Simply because there is a counter does not make Ishtars balanced. If the answer is 'Have the perfect counter or GTFO' then it's not balanced.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 680	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:55:00 - [26] - Quote Phaade wrote: If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Have you asked the same question when Hellcats were the standard for Fleet PVP, or Alpha Maels, or Tengus? And surprisingly, these ships haven't even received any nerf in recent years. The Ishtar, and by extension the Dominix, is only as popular because its Sentries allow them to stay away from the big blobs of enemies and stay alive -- and fight. Whatever else you bring that can't stay 100 or so away from the big enemy blob when you fight outnumbered, dies without any effect done to the enemy. Take BS, for example, they would just be obliterated in a matter of minutes by Dreads and you couldn't do anything to prevent this. Ishtars also allow to continue a fight when the enemy, especially in small scale PVP, brought in the I Win I Am A Coward button, aka Falcon, Rook or Griffin, Kitsune. This way of fighting is just too popular these days and Ishtars are a valid counter to this hypocrisy and bigotry. Also, with regards to the Armor Ishtars: They are utterly crap. ^^ And another by the way: Shooting Sentry drones is absolutely a valid option and a very effective option. As stated in one of the other topics around the Ishtars: Don't do it with your main fleet, have a second fleet of smaller ships take care of it from long range. I heard that CFC's long range Harpies are very effective in that regard. So, yes, after first hand experience with Ishtars in big fights as well as small fights, I don't see any reason why the Ishtar is out of place or deserves further nerfs as long as this game's player population continues to be as insular as it is right now.
Anthar Thebess 674	Posted - 2014.08.28 07:53:00 - [27] - Quote There is very simple fix for sentry drones : New sentry drone tracking speed = Current sentry drone tracking speed /2 (or even by 3) Why? Sentry drone will be less viable as their tracking against any small signature target will be very bad. So simple tactic in PVP vs sentry drone doctrines - MOVE! , just not in their direction. On the same time PVE aspect of sentry drone will be not hit to much : - rats usually approach you in the straight line. If there will be some issue with PVE ships that people skilled to run multiple drone ships for PVE , some changes to Rat AI can be done , or their signature boosted. ( sorry EVE is income source for CCP , and even if this means easier ratting for any other ships , i prefer this than current state of sentry drones in PVP) Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2138	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:06:00 - [28] - Quote https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 461	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:33:00 - [29] - Quote Sigras wrote: so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over. Are you being intentionally dense. I covered that very scenario. Considering youve never gotten a kill or even died to an ishtar im gonna say you should shutup.
Anthar Thebess 674	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:36:00 - [30] - Quote Sentamon wrote: https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. Top Ships 1.Crow 8,090 2.Sabre 7,177 3.Ishtar 5,626 4.Stiletto 5,597 5.Proteus 4,915 6.Loki 4,764 7.Malediction 4,569 You are trolling right? If not read about interceptors , missile one especially. Then check what is sabre , when and where people are using it. Do not forget about Tech 3 cruisers This illustrates perfectly why sentry drones are bad. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes

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