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An idea to counter the ishtar without any further nerfing

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Wingzero Mileghere Cascading Failure Un.Bound 2	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:25:00 - [1] - Quote I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1225	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:34:00 - [2] - Quote Wingzero Mileghere wrote: I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high Train time and cost are not balancing factor. No ship need to be overpowered no matter what reason you want to make up for it.
Iain Cariaba 255	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:39:00 - [3] - Quote There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Arronicus Caldari Navy Reconnaissance 1121	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:47:00 - [4] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. If this was an effective solution, it would already be employed. However, when 60 ishtars are facing off against 80 battleships, and each ishtar can carry what, 3 sets of sentries? Ignoring the fact that the battleships are going to miss a reasonable number of their shots against sentries (even while the sentries are almost stationary, the battleships will not be), in the time that it takes the battleships to shoot down through any reasonable amount of the sentries to where many of the ishtars have less than 5 remaining, a large portion of the battleship fleet will be dead. Now, if you could actually get on top of the ishtar blob with a gang of smartbombers, then at least you can work on popping the swarm like that, but simply shooting them is completely impractical. So no, there is not already a wonderful module to counter drones with a range of over ~7km. Now, I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but a potentially very simple and clean solution would be that when a ship is jammed, it cannot delegate drones (makes sense too, since you'd be jamming its ability to communicate with the other ship for its drones). Could also allow sensor dampeners to affect drone control range, which would also work to the same end. Small modifications like the two I suggested will allow for more versatile ewar ships, and prevent fewer balance problems, as opposed to the heavy-handed, shi+s broke, we need a new module/ship fix.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1242	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:54:00 - [5] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc
Kell Braugh Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:56:00 - [6] - Quote From what I've noticed, most the allegations for Ishtars being overpowered has been focused more on sentry drones (especially when the tracking bonus of the ishtar is applied) than the ship hull itself. I think that is where you may want to start your ideas on balance. If the doctrine-of-the-month fleet ishtar was bringing heavies, people would just park a disco BS and call it a done job. Not sure if bombs are even a very good balancing mechanic against sentries tbh. Sure you are shoot the drones, but the ability of those drones in the first place ~may~ be out of balance, especially when it means you have to chew through the combined EHP of 5x Sentries (or up to 15x since they can keep deploying them as you kill them) and the ship itself to end incoming damage.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:31:00 - [7] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. This is the most hilarious argument for how Ishtars and drones are balanced. If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. The only time this is somewhat effective is bombers vs. sentries. And that only works in nullsec.
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:12:00 - [8] - Quote Would dropping the MWD role bonus for a 50(25)% drone control range bonus help? I understand it gives them longer range, but it makes the main ship more vulnerable. If the main ship dies it's drones won't be causing problems. Much more effective then being forced to try and kill drones without buffing their drone abilities too hard.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 680	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:18:00 - [9] - Quote After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it.
Christopher Mabata Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 174	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:30:00 - [10] - Quote Agreed, weve already nerfed the ishtar back into a reasonable realm of use. Countinued crying about it is the result of bad counter doctrines, lack of coordination, or just down right bad luck. Ishtar fleets are dying people, if someone can do it so can you Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it. LOL so your Ishtar fleet couldn't burn through carrier reps and that SOMEHOW lead you to the conclusion that Ishtars are balanced? You people are off your rockers. You realize it's possible to armor tank your Ishtar, right? Sentry bombing only viable in Nullsec, try again. If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far?
Iain Cariaba 256	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:14:00 - [12] - Quote Phaade wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it. LOL so your Ishtar fleet couldn't burn through carrier reps and that SOMEHOW lead you to the conclusion that Ishtars are balanced? You people are off your rockers. You realize it's possible to armor tank your Ishtar, right? Sentry bombing only viable in Nullsec, try again. If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Three examples and you decide to nit-pick one, and that somehow lead you to believe you know what you're talking about? Troll much? You realize an armor tanked Ishtar has crap dps from sentries, right? By up to near half. If you're not in null, why are you engaging fleets of Ishtars? There's nothing for you to lose by not engaging. Ishtars are the most represented HAC in fleets because the current meta supports alpha doctrines for large engagements, and Ishtars are far more mobile a platform for that than anything else. Bottom line is that Ishtar fleets are not the OP platform your uninformed opinion seems to believe provided you fly smart. If you're camping a lowsec gate and an Ishtar fleet shows up on the other side, it's your own damn fault if you stick around for them to kill. Ishtar fleets, like any other fleet, is all about keeping an advantage. However, if those roaming fleets don't ever get fights because all their prey vanishes when they come in, those fleets will either break up into more managable numbers, or will reship into something else to get fights. Arronicus wrote: However, when 60 ishtars are facing off against 80 battleships, and each ishtar can carry what, 3 sets of sentries? Ignoring the fact that the battleships are going to miss a reasonable number of their shots against sentries (even while the sentries are almost stationary, the battleships will not be), in the time that it takes the battleships to shoot down through any reasonable amount of the sentries to where many of the ishtars have less than 5 remaining, a large portion of the battleship fleet will be dead. This is just a bad example of a bad tactic. If you have 80 battleships, why are you not taking out logi and trying to alpha the Ishtars off the field? Doesn't matter how many drones it carries if you blap it. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 476	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:17:00 - [13] - Quote Phaade wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. This is the most hilarious argument for how Ishtars and drones are balanced. If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. The only time this is somewhat effective is bombers vs. sentries. And that only works in nullsec. I am thinking they are thinking since it works in AT sometimes so its all good. Problem is in AT most I am seeing is a 3 core Ishtar comp. then 3 worms, couple eos's usually. Its when the other side bring quite a few more you have issues outside the AT system. Ain't no points limit outside the AT system. Nor are there bannings of ships lol.
Khiluale Zotakibe Thermal Collision Consortium 11	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:45:00 - [14] - Quote Hmmm... What about if there would be a bandwidth disruptor kind of EW module that would break connection between the ship and the drones. Thus making the pilot have to reconnect to them?
Christopher Mabata Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 174	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:58:00 - [15] - Quote Khiluale Zotakibe wrote: Hmmm... What about if there would be a bandwidth disruptor kind of EW module that would break connection between the ship and the drones. Thus making the pilot have to reconnect to them? Thats been proposed and beaten to death more times than i can count. I dont now why it never gets implemented, maybe the code is a bit too complex or something, dunno im not really that well versed in coding. That or it could be too easy to exploit, who knows i would look up one of the prior posts and read the logic, but lazy Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á
Sigras Conglomo 840	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:03:00 - [16] - Quote Rowells wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc The only case that you have made is that sentry drone HP should be reduced, and possibly their sig radius should be a bit larger. Also im assuming that you have never heard of bombs or smartbombs? because sentry drones tend not to move much and thus are prime targets for this strategy. Ishtars give up mobility when they deploy sentry drones, er rather they choose to give up mobility or lose their drones. That is a HUGE disadvantage. if YOU cannot find a way to capitalize on that massive disadvantage then that is a problem with YOU not the weapon system
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 461	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:26:00 - [17] - Quote Sigras wrote: Rowells wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Ishtar can carry 3 sets of heavies in drone bay, 2 mare in cargo + mobile depot. 5 sets times 5 drones is 25. Multiply that by number of people in fleet (x). Now take that number and multiply it by the HP (y) of each drone 25xy. For now I'm using bouncer II raw HP (no resists, skills, or ship bonuses) of ~3400 = y: (3400)25x = 85000x. So that means 1 Ishtar has at absolute minimum an extra 85k/hp in drones to kill. Absolute worst case scenario (250 ishtars), killing enemy drones requires 21.25mil/hp. And remember, I still haven't added skills or ship bonuses which could potentially be +75% more hp iirc The only case that you have made is that sentry drone HP should be reduced, and possibly their sig radius should be a bit larger. Also im assuming that you have never heard of bombs or smartbombs? because sentry drones tend not to move much and thus are prime targets for this strategy. Ishtars give up mobility when they deploy sentry drones, er rather they choose to give up mobility or lose their drones. That is a HUGE disadvantage. if YOU cannot find a way to capitalize on that massive disadvantage then that is a problem with YOU not the weapon system Have you ever even engaged/flown an ishtar? They give up no mobility. They drop drones and burn away. You kill a drone they drop another this goes on now their drones are spread around you all doing dps. This is all with 621 dps with 2 damage mods with an 30+km optimal +18 falloff 2484 alpha 0.04 tracking Diemos same setup 250mm rails 523dps with 9km optimal +23 falloff (alpha isnt important here) 0.03 tracking Muninn 370dps 11km optimal 22km falloff 3175 alpha 0.04 tracking ( i havent got the new Eft so im not sure about the new tracking values which is why ive left them vague) Yes drones have their disadvantages and advantages but atm the stats are very skewed in the ishtars favour. The ishtar Does more damage than rails with a huge range advantage Does almost twice the damage of Artys with a huge range advantage and isnt far behind in alpha(not even mentioning those artys taking up almost 80% of the Powergrid on the ship)
Sigras Conglomo 840	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:38:00 - [18] - Quote so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 9239	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:43:00 - [19] - Quote "further nerfing"? You act like it was nerfed in the first place. The changes were largely inconsequential, and CCP knows it. They even admitted as much that they were trying not to rock the boat. More will come. Bet on it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2136	Posted - 2014.08.28 02:59:00 - [20] - Quote Hopefully they completely ruin drones again so everyone can resume bitching about ECM being too powerful .. after it's counter has been wrecked completely. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2137	Posted - 2014.08.28 03:07:00 - [21] - Quote Phaade wrote: If it was such an effective counter, why don't people do it? Probably because by the time I get through even half the drone bay, I am dead. Competent drone users laugh at you when you try to kill their drones. Out of curiosity, do those drones cost more then your ship? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Valleria Darkmoon Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel 315	Posted - 2014.08.28 04:06:00 - [22] - Quote I've seen smartbombing mallers get close to wiping out entire waves of sentries and single one putting the flight into armor by the time primary was switched and we actually killed that brick. 2 or 3 would have easily killed the entire blob of sentries. If you want to do it optimally get a warp in on the sentries and use a mobile depot to refit two active hardners for the damage type of the drones on field (what else are Ishtars going to do to you...shoot?) and fit smartbombs for the same damage type as the drones since your smart bombing ships will be hitting each other. All you need is tank, smartbombs and cap and even on a very quick try fitting a Maller I can get one that using this philosophy against bouncers will tank almost 170k damage straight explosive with 93.4% resist to explosive using a pair of heated T2 hardners. This is unlinked and unslaved, even adding in links takes it over 200k. Even if they die, that's that much damage not being taken by others in the fleet and it is really easy and not costly to have extra smartbombing mallers around. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Iain Cariaba 259	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:00:00 - [23] - Quote Valleria Darkmoon wrote: I've seen smartbombing mallers get close to wiping out entire waves of sentries and single one putting the flight into armor by the time primary was switched and we actually killed that brick. 2 or 3 would have easily killed the entire blob of sentries. If you want to do it optimally get a warp in on the sentries and use a mobile depot to refit two active hardners for the damage type of the drones on field (what else are Ishtars going to do to you...shoot?) and fit smartbombs for the same damage type as the drones since your smart bombing ships will be hitting each other. All you need is tank, smartbombs and cap and even on a very quick try fitting a Maller I can get one that using this philosophy against bouncers will tank almost 170k damage straight explosive with 93.4% resist to explosive using a pair of heated T2 hardners. This is unlinked and unslaved, even adding in links takes it over 200k. Even if they die, that's that much damage not being taken by others in the fleet and it is really easy and not costly to have extra smartbombing mallers around. This ^^ Just because OP and supporters aren't imaginative enough to counter an Ishtar fleet on their own, the problem lies in the Ishtar. Unfortunatly, OP and his ilk are just going to ignore any and all advice while simply spewing numbers straight out of EFT as if EFT were the end all of EvE performance variables. Yes, Ishtars are powerful, but they can be countered rather easily if you know what you're doing. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 9243	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:14:00 - [24] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Yes, Ishtars are powerful, but they can be countered rather easily if you know what you're doing. Ah, yes, the smartbomb Maller, mainstay of any actual fleet doctrine, ever. Hell, I'll go ahead and assume that isn't an obvious troll. So, if I have to sacrifice a pilot to maybe get a set of drones into armor, let's say I need two pilots to take out a flight of them. How many flights are typically fielded? So, I need 2 pilots * number of flights fielded + regular fleet dps + logi. And plus, I will probably more than a few sets of smartbombers, since most perceptive FCs will call for scatter as soon as they see what's going on, so I will have to have different teams chasing them down. And you think that's cool, right? [edit: And hell's bells, you do realize that a strategy of burning directly towards them means that I will be getting wrecked with zero transversal with every shot, right? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1485	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:15:00 - [25] - Quote Simply because there is a counter does not make Ishtars balanced. If the answer is 'Have the perfect counter or GTFO' then it's not balanced.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 680	Posted - 2014.08.28 06:55:00 - [26] - Quote Phaade wrote: If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Have you asked the same question when Hellcats were the standard for Fleet PVP, or Alpha Maels, or Tengus? And surprisingly, these ships haven't even received any nerf in recent years. The Ishtar, and by extension the Dominix, is only as popular because its Sentries allow them to stay away from the big blobs of enemies and stay alive -- and fight. Whatever else you bring that can't stay 100 or so away from the big enemy blob when you fight outnumbered, dies without any effect done to the enemy. Take BS, for example, they would just be obliterated in a matter of minutes by Dreads and you couldn't do anything to prevent this. Ishtars also allow to continue a fight when the enemy, especially in small scale PVP, brought in the I Win I Am A Coward button, aka Falcon, Rook or Griffin, Kitsune. This way of fighting is just too popular these days and Ishtars are a valid counter to this hypocrisy and bigotry. Also, with regards to the Armor Ishtars: They are utterly crap. ^^ And another by the way: Shooting Sentry drones is absolutely a valid option and a very effective option. As stated in one of the other topics around the Ishtars: Don't do it with your main fleet, have a second fleet of smaller ships take care of it from long range. I heard that CFC's long range Harpies are very effective in that regard. So, yes, after first hand experience with Ishtars in big fights as well as small fights, I don't see any reason why the Ishtar is out of place or deserves further nerfs as long as this game's player population continues to be as insular as it is right now.
Anthar Thebess 674	Posted - 2014.08.28 07:53:00 - [27] - Quote There is very simple fix for sentry drones : New sentry drone tracking speed = Current sentry drone tracking speed /2 (or even by 3) Why? Sentry drone will be less viable as their tracking against any small signature target will be very bad. So simple tactic in PVP vs sentry drone doctrines - MOVE! , just not in their direction. On the same time PVE aspect of sentry drone will be not hit to much : - rats usually approach you in the straight line. If there will be some issue with PVE ships that people skilled to run multiple drone ships for PVE , some changes to Rat AI can be done , or their signature boosted. ( sorry EVE is income source for CCP , and even if this means easier ratting for any other ships , i prefer this than current state of sentry drones in PVP) Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2138	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:06:00 - [28] - Quote https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 461	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:33:00 - [29] - Quote Sigras wrote: so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over. Are you being intentionally dense. I covered that very scenario. Considering youve never gotten a kill or even died to an ishtar im gonna say you should shutup.
Anthar Thebess 674	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:36:00 - [30] - Quote Sentamon wrote: https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. Top Ships 1.Crow 8,090 2.Sabre 7,177 3.Ishtar 5,626 4.Stiletto 5,597 5.Proteus 4,915 6.Loki 4,764 7.Malediction 4,569 You are trolling right? If not read about interceptors , missile one especially. Then check what is sabre , when and where people are using it. Do not forget about Tech 3 cruisers This illustrates perfectly why sentry drones are bad. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 477	Posted - 2014.08.28 10:03:00 - [31] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Simply because there is a counter does not make Ishtars balanced. If the answer is 'Have the perfect counter or GTFO' then it's not balanced. Gonna say this. This solution seems a bit ******** to. Bring your real fleet, then the disco ball ships for the drones? If this is their grand solution they'd better find a better one. You see...we have been here before. HML used to be terror from long range. Evil drake and all. It too had a counter, firewalls (disco ball ships yet again, odd coincidence ). Smart bomb counter did not stop the nerf of hml. Mainly because people said over time wtf is this crap...for a 20 man fleet half of them have to be smart bomb spec'd to counter them.
Sigras Conglomo 841	Posted - 2014.08.28 10:22:00 - [32] - Quote Icarus Able wrote: Sigras wrote: so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over. Are you being intentionally dense. I covered that very scenario. Considering youve never gotten a kill or even died to an ishtar im gonna say you should shutup. your only other post in this thread neither mentions bombs nor supplies a suggestion on how to deal with the loss of whole waves of drones. additionally, is your fleet immobile? is your FC so incompetent as to have bubbled your own fleet instead of the enemy? leaving grid is a perfectly acceptable solution relegating sentry drones to defense only as any competent fleet would simply warp off grid when the ishtars got sufficiently far away from their sentries so as to make them choose to waste time flying back to their drones or abandoning them causing their loss without so much as a shot fired. Considering you seem to lack all logic and any memory of what actually you addressed, perhaps it is you who should shut up. (additionally note that "shut up" is two words :P)
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 682	Posted - 2014.08.28 10:35:00 - [33] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: This illustrates perfectly why sentry drones are bad. Not sentry drones are bad. It's the ships' bonuses that make them viable. If you need to adjust screws on one ship to make it less viable for anything, so be it; however, if you adjust down the entire weapon system, you cut off its viability for more than one ship and severe entire classes and sub-classes of ships, which in turn makes these classes useless for anything as a result as well. If that is what you want to see, then you clearly have the wrong idea about balancing and proportionality.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.28 16:48:00 - [34] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Phaade wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: After flying some bigger Ishtar fleets lately, I have to say that I don't see any OP in them. In my first fleet their logi got killed easily and we had to stand down, because no logi == no Ishtar fleet. In the second fleet our Ishtars got alphaed off the field despite reps by BS. In the third fleet it cost us immense grind to get BS killed against carrier reps and our drones were bombed. So ... where's the OP? Because I don't see it. LOL so your Ishtar fleet couldn't burn through carrier reps and that SOMEHOW lead you to the conclusion that Ishtars are balanced? You people are off your rockers. You realize it's possible to armor tank your Ishtar, right? Sentry bombing only viable in Nullsec, try again. If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Three examples and you decide to nit-pick one, and that somehow lead you to believe you know what you're talking about? Troll much? You realize an armor tanked Ishtar has crap dps from sentries, right? By up to near half. If you're not in null, why are you engaging fleets of Ishtars? There's nothing for you to lose by not engaging. Ishtars are the most represented HAC in fleets because the current meta supports alpha doctrines for large engagements, and Ishtars are far more mobile a platform for that than anything else. Bottom line is that Ishtar fleets are not the OP platform your uninformed opinion seems to believe provided you fly smart. If you're camping a lowsec gate and an Ishtar fleet shows up on the other side, it's your own damn fault if you stick around for them to kill. Ishtar fleets, like any other fleet, is all about keeping an advantage. However, if those roaming fleets don't ever get fights because all their prey vanishes when they come in, those fleets will either break up into more managable numbers, or will reship into something else to get fights. Arronicus wrote: However, when 60 ishtars are facing off against 80 battleships, and each ishtar can carry what, 3 sets of sentries? Ignoring the fact that the battleships are going to miss a reasonable number of their shots against sentries (even while the sentries are almost stationary, the battleships will not be), in the time that it takes the battleships to shoot down through any reasonable amount of the sentries to where many of the ishtars have less than 5 remaining, a large portion of the battleship fleet will be dead. This is just a bad example of a bad tactic. If you have 80 battleships, why are you not taking out logi and trying to alpha the Ishtars off the field? Doesn't matter how many drones it carries if you blap it. Haha, and you respond with this ad hominem drivel. You are complaining about alpha, armor tank your Ishtar, problem solved. OH NO, TRADEOFFS! "If you are not in null, why are you engaging a fleet of Ishtars?" Haha, man, if you can't see the irony in this statement, God help you. Sentry drones don't have particularly high alpha considering they are a battleship weapon. Garde's have about the alpha of an arty Rupture. Sure it's a decent amount, but it compares to medium guns. The current meta does not revolve around only high alpha, it revolves around massive DPS, particularly the BS type damage Ishtars can provide and project. Ishtars are so represented because of their mobility and ability to provide huge dps at the same time. This is the only HAC that can do this successfully. This is the very definition of overpowered, too strong, out of balance, etc. You have no idea how many Ishtar fleets I have seen and fought against, please use your brain before responding with your Ishtar fanboy bullshit.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 243	Posted - 2014.08.28 17:03:00 - [35] - Quote Sentamon wrote: https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. So, because tackle have whored on more kills, you think the Ishtar is fine. Gotcha.
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 467	Posted - 2014.08.28 17:31:00 - [36] - Quote Sigras wrote: Icarus Able wrote: Sigras wrote: so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over. Are you being intentionally dense. I covered that very scenario. Considering youve never gotten a kill or even died to an ishtar im gonna say you should shutup. your only other post in this thread neither mentions bombs nor supplies a suggestion on how to deal with the loss of whole waves of drones. additionally, is your fleet immobile? is your FC so incompetent as to have bubbled your own fleet instead of the enemy? leaving grid is a perfectly acceptable solution relegating sentry drones to defense only as any competent fleet would simply warp off grid when the ishtars got sufficiently far away from their sentries so as to make them choose to waste time flying back to their drones or abandoning them causing their loss without so much as a shot fired. Considering you seem to lack all logic and any memory of what actually you addressed, perhaps it is you who should shut up. (additionally note that "shut up" is two words :P) DId you just argue that its not OP because you can run away from it? Cant tell if trolling or an idiot.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 682	Posted - 2014.08.28 19:16:00 - [37] - Quote Where does he mention running away?
Leoric Firesword Dark Fusion Industries 73	Posted - 2014.08.28 19:52:00 - [38] - Quote Wingzero Mileghere wrote: I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high smartbomb, ecm (if they haven't already started firing), stealth bomber (if in null) there's 3 ways to counter then right off the top of my head :)
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 477	Posted - 2014.08.28 20:31:00 - [39] - Quote Phaade wrote: Sentamon wrote: https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. So, because tackle have whored on more kills, you think the Ishtar is fine. Gotcha. this basically. Being in the company of what has been a favored dictor for a while now did not help this cause either. On a side note nice to see crow so loved now. I remember when I flew them long ago they were in the basement of inty love.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2148	Posted - 2014.08.28 22:49:00 - [40] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Sentamon wrote: https://zkillboard.com/ Ishtar isn't even top ship. Yeah it's good but nowhere near out of control. Top Ships 1.Crow 8,090 2.Sabre 7,177 3.Ishtar 5,626 4.Stiletto 5,597 5.Proteus 4,915 6.Loki 4,764 7.Malediction 4,569 You are trolling right? If not read about interceptors , missile one especially. Then check what is sabre , when and where people are using it. Do not forget about Tech 3 cruisers This illustrates perfectly why sentry drones are bad. My point is the complainers are making it seem like everyone is using an Ishtar. Facts don't back your claims at all. If CCP gives and you destroy the Ishtar you'll just move on and ***** about some other ship that you can't handle. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2148	Posted - 2014.08.28 22:55:00 - [41] - Quote Icarus Able wrote: DId you just argue that its not OP because you can run away from it? Cant tell if trolling or an idiot. Why? Is any maneuver besides warping on top of a target, web/scram, and applying massive close range damage too complicated for you? The only unbalanced ships are the ones that can perform the stunt outlined above. The ships that drops drones and burns away is no threat unless you're blind. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2148	Posted - 2014.08.28 23:08:00 - [42] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: There is very simple fix for sentry drones : New sentry drone tracking speed = Current sentry drone tracking speed /2 (or even by 3) Why? Sentry drone will be less viable as their tracking against any small signature target will be very bad. You're proposing nerfing the #4 most common PvP ship (using kil/loss mails as metric) to make #1, #2, and #3 more powerful. Why exactly? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Wingzero Mileghere Cascading Failure Un.Bound 2	Posted - 2014.08.28 23:30:00 - [43] - Quote ISD please lock this thread nothing here is on topic and it has basically turned into a match of whining about the ishtar my original post was asking for ideas for a module that would be an effective counter for drones not tactics for a counter or which ship is in the top of the PvP ranks
Wingzero Mileghere Cascading Failure Un.Bound 2	Posted - 2014.08.28 23:32:00 - [44] - Quote its sad that I am having a more productive discussion on a eve facebook group than you all are here the forum trolls are thick
Alcorak Culpa Latas Never Look Back 64	Posted - 2014.08.29 00:03:00 - [45] - Quote I'm going to try to refute every counter posted here so far: 1) Smartbomb: A fleet would need a dedicated squad of ships just for this purpose. These ships would need to burn ahead towards the drones, and become separated from the main force. They would be seen outside of logi support range and picked off very quickly by the ishtar FC. If this tactic worked once, the Ishtar FC would simply order the fleet to orbit at a greater distance to launch the 2nd group. 2) Dumb Bombs: Only works in null, but is effective when available. However, this does not bring the actual ishtars into the engagement. Ishtars will happily target and volley several bombers before the drones are lost. See above about launching the 2nd wave of drones at lessened density. 3) Run Away: Fleet fights generally happen because there is an objective to attack or defend. Surrendering the field is not a means of winning objectives. 4) ECM: Drones can be set to assist other pilots, even when jammed. Rest assured that a jammed Ishtar's drones will continue to shoot whatever their FC calls as primary. 5) Sniping Logi: Someone mentioned that an ishtar fleet can be forced off the field if their logi are killed. See Also: Fleet Doctrine, Any. 6)Scram/Web: If you're fast enough to get these on an ishtar, you're sig is massive from your MWD, and those sentries already blapped you. Also, that Ishtar you're chasing will out-dps you. The issue with Ishtars is that they have between destroyer and cruiser sig radius (MWD bonus), FAST cruiser speed, EWAR immunity (except tackle), brawler battlecruiser damage and tank, and can deal that damage at sniper range while keeping their own ship outside of engagement range. As to the OP regarding modules, modules reducing drone control range or bandwidth could be workable, and should be implemented. Bandwidth options should be limited to larger hulls with intense fitting requirements, as they would likely see use against carriers, while control range modules should be 15-30% subject to stacking penalties with a hard cap of 75% range reduction
w3ak3stl1nk Hedion University 86	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:17:00 - [46] - Quote Raven fleets can't take them out from range with the high sig shield tanking? Never tried it, just wondering... Is that my two cents or yours?
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 477	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:30:00 - [47] - Quote Sentamon wrote: [My point is the complainers are making it seem like everyone is using an Ishtar. Facts don't back your claims at all. If CCP gives and you destroy the Ishtar you'll just move on and ***** about some other ship that you can't handle. Its not the handling of the ship that is the issue, its the sentries. You have to live through the sentries to get to the ship. Well several of them. Creates a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Basic small skirmish roams are becoming small fleets if as people are saying oh just bring bombers and falcons. Which is quite funny for 2 reasons. We get the general consensus less falcon use in game is preferred by many. Insert several ecm thread rants here. I can fly hacs and recons. Personally I'd rather x up in fleet in a hac and roll with that over FC going aww man...I know you can fly falcon and we need them because of Ishtar...can you run that instead. And many want to see eve shift from "blob" warfare to actual skirmish once in a while. When you have several man bomber wings and several falcons to support the 10 man hac roam....its quickly not becoming a skirmish night.
Alcorak Culpa Latas Never Look Back 64	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:31:00 - [48] - Quote w3ak3stl1nk wrote: Raven fleets can't take them out from range with the high sig shield tanking? Never tried it, just wondering... Ravens: missile damage is based on sig radius and speed of the target. Due to the speed of ishtars and reduces sig penalty, no, ravens can't deal sufficient damage. T2 precisions at max skills w/ 3BCS will deal ~1300 BASE dmg per volley (204dps). 277dps with precision rapid heavies. (assuming ishtar w/ mwd and 1 nano). Also, ishtars can drop sentries that would match the ravens' range w/ rapid heavies. Cruise missiles arent effective from range b/c it takes 10+seconds for volleys to reach the targets - long enough to warp away once you see yourself redboxed and then come back, at which point 2 volleys have been wasted on a target that isnt there.
Alcorak Culpa Latas Never Look Back 64	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:35:00 - [49] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: [quote=Sentamon] FC going aww man...I know you can fly falcon and we need them because of Ishtar...can you run that instead. Falcons don't counter ishtars because of assist, and because drones keep shooting as long as the falcon gets locked at all.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2152	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:40:00 - [50] - Quote Alcorak wrote: w3ak3stl1nk wrote: Raven fleets can't take them out from range with the high sig shield tanking? Never tried it, just wondering... Ravens: missile damage is based on sig radius and speed of the target. Due to the speed of ishtars and reduces sig penalty, no, ravens can't deal sufficient damage. T2 precisions at max skills w/ 3BCS will deal ~1300 BASE dmg per volley (204dps). 277dps with precision rapid heavies. (assuming ishtar w/ mwd and 1 nano). Also, ishtars can drop sentries that would match the ravens' range w/ rapid heavies. Cruise missiles arent effective from range b/c it takes 10+seconds for volleys to reach the targets - long enough to warp away once you see yourself redboxed and then come back, at which point 2 volleys have been wasted on a target that isnt there. It's more then ironic that an Ishtar warping out of danger is a viable strategy but other ships warping out of danger from Ishtars isn't. Ships warping around is a huge achilees heal for Ishtars. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2152	Posted - 2014.08.29 01:42:00 - [51] - Quote Alcorak wrote: Zan Shiro wrote: [quote=Sentamon] FC going aww man...I know you can fly falcon and we need them because of Ishtar...can you run that instead. Falcons don't counter ishtars because of assist, and because drones keep shooting as long as the falcon gets locked at all. No but Ishtars counter ECM ships that can ruin pretty much everyone else. For this reason alone nerfing the Ishtar furhter would be a terrible idea. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 477	Posted - 2014.08.29 02:15:00 - [52] - Quote Alcorak wrote: Zan Shiro wrote: [quote=Sentamon] FC going aww man...I know you can fly falcon and we need them because of Ishtar...can you run that instead. Falcons don't counter ishtars because of assist, and because drones keep shooting as long as the falcon gets locked at all. I was being nice and giving that lol. Its got more holes than swiss cheese I know. Do I jam the sentry, with rainbow I get 2 max...1 racial (pretty good chance of hitting) 1 multispec (if it hits). Do I jam the Ishtar. Do I jam the ship I think its assigned to. This the fun one....I get to guess in a small roam of say 10 ships which is the one. Have a 1 in 10 chance of getting it right. Then I am hoping the assigned ship is not a jam I am using at the moment. Well that and if falcon is the answer to fix because of Ishtar...I want my uber ranged (because of) falcon back. Fight because of with another because of I say lol. in the above scenario if I guess wrong I may get bouncers smacking me around hard and fast (tank by jam or tank by ghetto armour I am screwed really...and that's just by the sentries, not even talking the other ships in roam). Giving me 10 guesses to stop them, I want the range on bouncers to get 3-4 tries at least lol.
Alcorak Culpa Latas Never Look Back 64	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:15:00 - [53] - Quote Ravens: Cruise missiles arent effective from range b/c it takes 10+seconds for volleys to reach the targets - long enough to warp away once you see yourself redboxed and then come back, at which point 2 volleys have been wasted on a target that isnt there.[/quote] It's more then ironic that an Ishtar warping out of danger is a viable strategy but other ships warping out of danger from Ishtars isn't. Ships warping around is a huge achilees heal for Ishtars.[/quote] Agreed, if a fleet can warp 150 km at a time it can stay away from sentries and maintain position on objectives, pissing off ishtars as they move away from all their sentries, but this tactic is a PITA to implement. As to running from ravens at range, the whole fleet wouldnt need to warp off, just whichever ishtar pilot noticed themselves being primaried. Just a general observation and long-held issue with cruise-missile sniping. As to ishtars countering ECM - they do, and they should. Assist is a great mechanic for that. However, droneboats should still be vulnerable to SOME form of ewar (and NOT the TD, which already counters anything in the gunnery tree) As to ishtars themselves - I believe, like the OP, that the problem is more with the lack of ewar counters to drones than with the hull itself (although the hull is VERY strong)- notice also the popularity of domis, geddons, and slowcats (ok, so carriers are supposed to be a bit OP - different conversation there). The vexor is the strongest t1 cruiser, and while not really overpowered, the prophecy and myrmidon have grown in popularity for small gangs. The fact is that the release of drone damage amps shifted the balance for all drone ships - many of which really needed a buff; but they are now in need of a counter.
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 595	Posted - 2014.08.29 03:55:00 - [54] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: Agreed, weve already nerfed the ishtar back into a reasonable realm of use. Countinued crying about it is the result of bad counter doctrines, lack of coordination, or just down right bad luck. Ishtar fleets are dying people, if someone can do it so can you A 10m/s nerf to speed is nerfing a ship "back into a reasonable realm"?! What.. just no... Iain Cariaba wrote: There is already a wonderful module to counter drones. Shoot them!!! No more drone problem when they run out of drones. Yea that works great why didn't WE think of that! How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 477	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:37:00 - [55] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: Yea that works great why didn't WE think of that! They saw it on twitch tv...so its gotta work. This turns them on apparently. I see 2 drone comps go head to head in AT I do other things more exciting for a few minutes (like watch paint dry) and catch the match halfway when they actually get to shooting the real ships.
Icarus Able Revenant Tactical 467	Posted - 2014.08.29 08:51:00 - [56] - Quote Sentamon wrote: Icarus Able wrote: DId you just argue that its not OP because you can run away from it? Cant tell if trolling or an idiot. Why? Is any maneuver besides warping on top of a target, web/scram, and applying massive close range damage too complicated for you? The only unbalanced ships are the ones that can perform the stunt outlined above. The ships that drops drones and burns away is no threat unless you're blind. You dont base balance on being able to run away from a target.
Seolfor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 69	Posted - 2014.08.29 15:06:00 - [57] - Quote The problem isn't just Ishtars - most ship size/class the drone boats dominate, by a large margin (some exceptions - Assault Frigates, and the problem is outta control at cruiser size) Worm, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Ishtar And they outclass their peers by a fair bit. They can brawl, kite. They can shield or armor tank. They can use highs for even more dps or heavy neuting. They may not be the best at any single of these roles (actually I'm wrong, no better brawl cruiser exists than the drone ones, take your pick, with armor tank, Neuts and gecko mix 800 dps), but they can do all, in a single fit better than any other ship. They're cap free dmg, dmg type selectable, immune to TDs, continue to pummel after ECM, and with the stupid bonuses they apply their damage better than any other weapon system. All drone boats have enough of a drone bay to have multiple flights. Rise has made it all about the Sentries on the Ishtar, and that is just the frakin tip of the imbalance iceberg. There was some talk about TDs effecting missiles, I'd say post AT, bring that back on the table and here's your anti-drone counter- Smartbombs. Buff Smartbombs damage vs drones, across the board by 2-3x Them utility highs need something other than Neuts in there :) That'll shake the meta, yknow it.
Altirius Saldiaro Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2014.08.29 16:01:00 - [58] - Quote The easiest way for ccp to fix the Ishtar without nerfing it's stats, is to make EWAR hitting a ship, carry over to its drones. Plain and simple.
Soldarius Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore 770	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:02:00 - [59] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Ishtars are the most represented HAC in fleets because the current meta supports alpha doctrines for large engagements, and Ishtars are far more mobile a platform for that than anything else. Large fleet doctrine has supported alpha fleet since logistics became a thing. Logi means nothing if your first shot completely obliterates the target. If what you are saying were true then everyone would still be flying Arty Abbadons or Maelstroms. But they don't. People use HACs because of small signature radius and speed compared to a T1 BS that costs just as much, moves slowly, takes more damage from bombs, and uses large weapons that struggle vs smaller targets. HACs, being medium ships, use medium weapons and like all medium ships do better damage vs medium and larger targets. The one and only exception in the realm of medium ships is the Ishtar, which not only can easily field a full complement of large weapons, but even has multiple bonuses to them, including damage application. The real question people should be asking is "Why is the Ishtar the only medium ship that can effectively use large weapons?" The solution is simply to remove the Ishtar's ability to use large and sentry drones by reducing its drone bandwidth to 50Mb. Now change those drone bonuses to medium drones and let them bring a ****-ton of them so they can't be easily defanged and can take full advantage of fully selectable damage types. The reduction in raw dps can easily be compensated by boosting the per level damage bonus to drones. Another more complicated, but more comprehensive, option would be to expand the selection of sentry drones to include multiple sizes, with the current set being the large variant. This would require additional skills be introduced to Eve. But then you could have a medium ship doing reasonable dps to the proper targets, rather than everything under the sun. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014. Free PASTA!
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 595	Posted - 2014.08.29 18:52:00 - [60] - Quote Sigras wrote: so the ishtars warp in, drop sentrys and burn away... Because you're not an idiot and you prepared to face the current meta, you call in a bombing run on the now abandoned drone cluster who has no means of escape. Lather Rinse Repeat (x2) ??? profit Remember these are not slowcats who can just drop endless waves of sentry drones, they have 3 sets and then its over. Lowsec is a thing too, ya know, what do you suggest for us? And a lot more happens there than in that stagnant cesspool known as nullsec (perhaps ignoring Provi). How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 595	Posted - 2014.08.29 18:56:00 - [61] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Phaade wrote: If Ishtars weren't so blatantly overpowered, why are they most represented HAC in fleets throughout Eve? By far? Have you asked the same question when Hellcats were the standard for Fleet PVP, or Alpha Maels, or Tengus? And surprisingly, these ships haven't even received any nerf in recent years. Abaddons and Maelstroms were left behind, nerfed by the fact that they weren't buffed with everything else. Tengus saw the crap kicked out of HMLs, vastly reducing their effectiveness. Please try again. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2161	Posted - 2014.08.29 19:01:00 - [62] - Quote Maybe the one trick MWD jockeys in the crazy amount of frigates all over the place need to learn how to fly their ships instead of suggesting nerfs to everyone else. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 595	Posted - 2014.08.29 19:02:00 - [63] - Quote Leoric Firesword wrote: Wingzero Mileghere wrote: I want to suggest a Idea to stop the whining about the ishtar being overpowered and drones being overpowered in general There needs to be a module to counter drones we have damps for regular ship mounted turrets we need something similar for drones as well or the effects of the current modules need to affect drones as well the details need to be worked out but this is a must to prevent a great ship going the way of the drake and turning into a useless ship that on top of everything you have to train 45+ days for and up to 6 months to have the max skills for plus a cost that is similar to a battleship this ship is one that needs to be overpowered to a point that's part of the reason the cost is so high smartbomb, ecm (if they haven't already started firing), stealth bomber (if in null) there's 3 ways to counter then right off the top of my head :) Smartbombs are a terrible counter to any ship with an EHP bonus ECM doesn't jam drones, which means it doesn't work once they've started firing, drones can be set to agressive, or they can be assisted off to someone else Bombing STILL only works in nullsec, leaving lowsec utterly screwed How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 595	Posted - 2014.08.29 19:04:00 - [64] - Quote Sentamon wrote: Maybe the one trick MWD jockeys in the crazy amount of frigates all over the place need to learn how to fly their ships instead of suggesting nerfs to everyone else. Trolololol, this is why we can't have nice forums. "Learn how to fly your ship" So do i fly at the Ishtars, and get kited in sentry optimal, never catching the super-speedy Ishtar? Or to I fly at the sentries, flying straight at several hundred DPS/Ishtar at ZERO transversal? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2008	Posted - 2014.08.29 20:58:00 - [65] - Quote Thread locked. The Rules: 16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked. As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department


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