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Inquisitor Lord
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:41:00 -
[1]
Looking at the Rokh, the first thing that came into my mind was... "Awsome for Blasters"...
Why?
Well, a Neutron Blaster Cannon II (NBC II) has a 7.2km optimal stock.
So, assuming Caldari Bship 4 and Null Ammo...
7,200 * 1.4 * 1.25 = 12,600 optimal (not taking any skills into accoung mind you)
With caldari bship 5 you get: 13,500km optimal
Toss sharp shooting 5 into the mix and you have some nasty blaster range.
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:43:00 -
[2]
But, compare and contrast with the megathron and you get...
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lofty29
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:44:00 -
[3]
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete 
---------------------------
 Originally by: HippoKing
...I suck at forums 
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Shi Mun
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Shi Mun on 26/07/2006 21:44:58
meh the hsip will probably fly like a brick let alone look like one so not much of a point using blasters, i dont see a practical use to it. (wen i saw the bonus's i also automatically thought about blasters :D )
Doh lofty beat me to it by a minute 
-------------------------------------------------------
Read my EW suggestions here:-
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=304925&page=28 |
Doc Brown
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: lofty29
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete
Speed matters much less when your range is over twice as big. So does tracking.
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
anotleam
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:47:00 -
[6]
and if the range gets too long they always can make the bonus rails only..
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Cohkka
LoneWolf Mining
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: HippoKing
But, compare and contrast with the megathron and you get...
I does slightly less dps with 8 neutrons (I asume it will be able to fit them) than a Mega with 7 ions. If null doesn't get nerfed I know what people will be using it for. (30km optimal)
That's only if it gets enough Grid and CPU to fit them, but it would be pretty useless if it couldn't fit a full rack of 425mm so I guess it'll have enough...
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:56:00 -
[8]
Cookies.
NB.
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Inquisitor Lord
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Posted - 2006.07.26 22:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Cookies.
NB.
Could you do the Hype vs Rokh with the same setups?
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Salda
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Posted - 2006.07.26 22:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Inquisitor Lord
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Cookies.
NB.
Could you do the Hype vs Rokh with the same setups?
And show the Rokh with both Null Ammo and AM in the orrigional graph?
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Celedris
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.07.26 22:40:00 -
[11]
It might also be easier to fit an extra damage mod on the Rokh, but then again it could have something like 95 m/s speed and 135 million mass. Its all just speculation until you see all of the ship's stats.
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Grimpak
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 22:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Doc Brown
Originally by: lofty29
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete
Speed matters much less when your range is over twice as big. So does tracking.
...aye, but then I say this: if Rohk inherits caldari's traits of having this bigass ships (read freakin' big sig) with no agility, how the hell are you supposed to mwd out to other ships? don't forget that most of the times it's the blaster ship that must go to the enemy, not the opposite.
..unless ofc it's setup for short range aswell.
it's like the blasterthron: it's nice, dishes lots of damage, but you have to choose if you engage or not.
....plus I'm expecting to see the ship not being able to reach the 1000m/s with a MWD
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Virida
Mindstar Technology
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.07.26 22:46:00 -
[13]
We all know this. devlopers probably do it too better than anyone.
hmm, duno. Maybe someday, rails and blasters undergo a change equal to the missile changes, a reworking of entire code base, and, bonuses is reworked so railgun ships get no use of blasters, and railgunships is crap snipers.
Its either that, or, accept both is designed to fit BOTH. Anything else i think is not logical.
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Minnow maught
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:05:00 -
[14]
nice damage graph NB.
We mustnt forget that fitting 3 damage mods on the rokh (assuming it has the CPU)wont loose it any slots that would be used for tanking where as the Megathron has to give up 3 tanking slots to fit damage mods.
Would be interesting to see what damage the megat does with out the damage mods compared to the rokh with damage mods.
If the Rokh is a slow ship it'll still make an excellent gate camp blastership !!! Everything will be in its optimal.
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Nebuli
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Doc Brown
Originally by: lofty29
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete
Speed matters much less when your range is over twice as big. So does tracking.
...aye, but then I say this: if Rohk inherits caldari's traits of having this bigass ships (read freakin' big sig) with no agility, how the hell are you supposed to mwd out to other ships? don't forget that most of the times it's the blaster ship that must go to the enemy, not the opposite.
..unless ofc it's setup for short range aswell.
it's like the blasterthron: it's nice, dishes lots of damage, but you have to choose if you engage or not.
....plus I'm expecting to see the ship not being able to reach the 1000m/s with a MWD
If it can hit to 30km with blasters it doesnt need a MWD, does a geddon fit mwd?
CEO - Art of War |
Grimpak
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Grimpak on 26/07/2006 23:39:07
Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Doc Brown
Originally by: lofty29
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete
Speed matters much less when your range is over twice as big. So does tracking.
...aye, but then I say this: if Rohk inherits caldari's traits of having this bigass ships (read freakin' big sig) with no agility, how the hell are you supposed to mwd out to other ships? don't forget that most of the times it's the blaster ship that must go to the enemy, not the opposite.
..unless ofc it's setup for short range aswell.
it's like the blasterthron: it's nice, dishes lots of damage, but you have to choose if you engage or not.
....plus I'm expecting to see the ship not being able to reach the 1000m/s with a MWD
If it can hit to 30km with blasters it doesnt need a MWD, does a geddon fit mwd?
don't mind me.
...can't think straight due to this pain in the left part of my neck 
remind me NOT to drive with the car window wiiiiiiiiiide open
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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DisposableAlt
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:57:00 -
[17]
Even with 30k range, the limiting factor for the blaster-Rohk will be fitting. If CCP know what they're doing (sometimes I wonder...), the Rohk won't be able to fit 8x neutron IIs without RCUs, and won't be able to fit neutrons + tank without a couple RCUs, perhaps stopping the Rohk from fitting 3 damage mods altogether. Even if it does still allow 3 damage mods, it mitigates the fact that mega uses up tanking slots for damage mods and rohk doesn't. In fact, any blaster-rohk won't have an especially great tank because 3 damage mods and an RCU will leave at most 2 slots for PDU II.
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Nebuli
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 00:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DisposableAlt
Even with 30k range, the limiting factor for the blaster-Rohk will be fitting. If CCP know what they're doing (sometimes I wonder...), the Rohk won't be able to fit 8x neutron IIs without RCUs, and won't be able to fit neutrons + tank without a couple RCUs, perhaps stopping the Rohk from fitting 3 damage mods altogether. Even if it does still allow 3 damage mods, it mitigates the fact that mega uses up tanking slots for damage mods and rohk doesn't. In fact, any blaster-rohk won't have an especially great tank because 3 damage mods and an RCU will leave at most 2 slots for PDU II.
Not entirely sure why fitting only 2 PDU means it cant shield tank well?
Totaly hypotheticaly it could fit a full rack of neutrons, full shield tank with cap injecter in mids, then lows a mix of damage mods and fitting mods, even if you needed 2 PDU and 1 CPU to fit 8 neutrons and a shield tank with an injecter it should still pwn.
CEO - Art of War |
welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.07.27 00:25:00 -
[19]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 27/07/2006 00:28:56
Originally by: lofty29
Im also thinking the Rokh will be slow, if not the slowest battleship. CCP know what theyre doing, they wont make any ships obselete
Ferox.
On Topic: It will deal some pretty hefty damage as a blaster boat but you're gonna need to fill its lows with nanos tbh. It might work in the same way as a blaster eagle, people are going to think its set up for range and close you down expecting an easy kill.
The Rokh is different to all the other Caldari railboats though. CCP have given it 8 HP's meaning we're finally going to be able to deal some respectable dps with a comparable number of weapons to the other races.
The blasteRokh could work, we'll just have to wait and see.
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Ergo Morte
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Posted - 2006.07.27 03:01:00 -
[20]
This sounds like one of those things that work better in theory than in practice. Besides, Calderi lack imigination. For all whining about the nos Domi you think the Calderi would be happy to get one of they're own. Assuming that the Rokh get 4 missile hardpoints like many think it will.
High: 4x seige, 3x Nos, Neut
Mid: XL or gisti booster, scram, invun. II, ECM for the rest
Low: 3X BCU, fitting mods as neccesary.
If it has any drone space ( doubtful ) then it can put out a few target painter drone for extra kick. The resist bonii are what makes this work, a high resist active tank that can run continously and still leave room for at least 2X ECM, likely 3x ECM. Without knowing the exact slot layout this is all conjecture but there are more worrisome possibilities than a Blasterokh that probably won't be able to run both a full rack of neutron IIs plus an active tank at the same.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 03:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ergo Morte
High: 4x seige, 3x Nos, Neut
Mid: XL or gisti booster, scram, invun. II, ECM for the rest
Low: 3X BCU, fitting mods as neccesary.
That's disgusting, we finally get a railship with EIGHT turret hardpoints and you want to put missiles on it? That should be a KOS offense.
------------------ Originally by: kieron
Buy ISK for RL cash here!
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.07.27 04:29:00 -
[22]
The Eagle is a piece of **** blaster boat - I expect the same from the Rokh.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Khazhran Sotomo
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 05:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Originally by: Ergo Morte
High: 4x seige, 3x Nos, Neut
Mid: XL or gisti booster, scram, invun. II, ECM for the rest
Low: 3X BCU, fitting mods as neccesary.
That's disgusting, we finally get a railship with EIGHT turret hardpoints and you want to put missiles on it? That should be a KOS offense.
/emote slaps Ergo Morte
QFT Nik
Also, this is also kinda the heart of the issue with the ferox too. The fact that even if all existing on TQ Caldari Railboats had enough (at least one more than they currently do), they would still be better off mounting as many missiles as possible and then "topping off" with turrets/nos/neuts is abhorrent, and even more than the cries once we get a proper rail boat that it's automatically overpowered with only knowing the number of turrets and bonuses.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.07.27 07:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Inquisitor Lord
Looking at the Rokh, the first thing that came into my mind was... "Awsome for Blasters"...
Why?
Well, a Neutron Blaster Cannon II (NBC II) has a 7.2km optimal stock.
So, assuming Caldari Bship 4 and Null Ammo...
7,200 * 1.4 * 1.25 = 12,600 optimal (not taking any skills into accoung mind you)
With caldari bship 5 you get: 13,500km optimal
Toss sharp shooting 5 into the mix and you have some nasty blaster range.
And all that range won't mean jack **** because your tracking will make you cry.
And please, spell it 'Roc'. Rokh makes my eyes hurt.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.07.27 07:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Originally by: Ergo Morte
High: 4x seige, 3x Nos, Neut
Mid: XL or gisti booster, scram, invun. II, ECM for the rest
Low: 3X BCU, fitting mods as neccesary.
That's disgusting, we finally get a railship with EIGHT turret hardpoints and you want to put missiles on it? That should be a KOS offense.
Nik, I'm going to turn my first Roc into the Big beefy juiced up powerlifting brother of the ferox.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:25:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 27/07/2006 17:26:49
Originally by: Inquisitor Lord
Could you do the Hype vs Rokh with the same setups?
Linky.
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
And all that range won't mean jack **** because your tracking will make you cry.
>.< not really. Due to the way tracking works, range doesn't give you tracking issues, on the contrary. On the other hand, as base damage is lower, the damage curve of the rokh is still below the other damage curves shown here.
NB.
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Minnow maught
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 27/07/2006 17:26:49
Originally by: Inquisitor Lord
Could you do the Hype vs Rokh with the same setups?
Linky.
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
And all that range won't mean jack **** because your tracking will make you cry.
>.< not really. Due to the way tracking works, range doesn't give you tracking issues, on the contrary. On the other hand, as base damage is lower, the damage curve of the rokh is still below the other damage curves shown here.
NB.
As your doing requests 
Could you do one for rokh with 3 dmg mods vs Megathron with zero dmg mods and hyperion with zero dmg mods.
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Kazaam
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:45:00 -
[28]
Actually, if a Blasterokh meets any other short range BS, Rokh could win :
With a faction webber you can throw it to 14km, and get fairly near optimal range with Neutron w/Null. At that distance, Rokh can keep up unwebbed at 14km, taking poor damage from the opponent, while it can dish kind of a hard punch to it.
Am I right ?
_________________________________________
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.07.27 17:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ghoest
The Eagle is a piece of **** blaster boat - I expect the same from the Rokh.
It's not hard for a decent Eagle pilot to beat a deimos at its own game.
Less damage but a far better tank.
So no, the Eagle isn't a piece of **** blaster boat in my experience.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.07.27 18:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Minnow maught
As your doing requests
Not exactly, but I don't mind when Excel's open and there's no stake in the choice of parameters (aka: "z0mg why did you chose 60s you noob").
Originally by: Minnow maught
Could you do one for rokh with 3 dmg mods vs Megathron with zero dmg mods and hyperion with zero dmg mods.
Linky.
NB.
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Minnow maught
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.27 19:10:00 -
[31]
Thankyou NB !!!
To me what you have shown is closer to reality of what people will fit (assumin that other thread showing slot layout is acurate) ....
Rokh
8xNeutron II
All midslots for a make you cry tank
2xPDU II
3xDamage mod
vs
Hyperion
8xNeutron II
Various fitments in mid (cap booster, MWD,Web, scram etc)
6xsub par armour tank
....
result ... the non blaster ship dishes more damage with a bigger tank!!
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.07.27 19:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Minnow maught
result ... the non blaster ship dishes more damage with a bigger tank!!
* damage mods are very powerful mods, your armor tanked blaster ship will use at least one or two;
* the blaster-rokh won't tackle with a full shield tank;
... at the very least.
NB.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.07.29 04:56:00 -
[33]
Eagle vs Demios its mostly pilot skill thatmatter either way.
In PVE the Eagle just sucks.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.29 05:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Cookies.
NB.
Except there is no reason to not fit DM3 on a Rokh, plenty of reason to not do so on a Hyperion or Megathron.
The realistic comparison is DM1 or DM2 Electron-thron versus DM3 Neutron Rokh, as those are about equally easy to fit (you do need one RCU for a full Neutron Rokh to be fair, but you don't give much up for it).
That's a good 20% less DPS than in that graph for the Megathron, at which point we're talking about less damage output than the 3 DM Rokh. At less range, with a weaker tank :)
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Requiescat
Crest Tech
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Posted - 2006.07.29 05:31:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Originally by: Ergo Morte
High: 4x seige, 3x Nos, Neut
Mid: XL or gisti booster, scram, invun. II, ECM for the rest
Low: 3X BCU, fitting mods as neccesary.
That's disgusting, we finally get a railship with EIGHT turret hardpoints and you want to put missiles on it? That should be a KOS offense.
I've done it with limited success on the Apocalypse. Try 6x nos, 2x siege, 7.5k scram, 3x cap recharger, 2x LAR, 3 hardeners, EANM2 and a high named damage control. You come out with 70%+ resistance to everything and can pretty much run the whole setup forever. After a couple minutes, nothing but a Vagabond is still going to be shooting and tanking.
-------=========+=========-------
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anotleam
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Posted - 2006.07.29 05:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kazaam
Actually, if a Blasterokh meets any other short range BS, Rokh could win :
With a faction webber you can throw it to 14km, and get fairly near optimal range with Neutron w/Null. At that distance, Rokh can keep up unwebbed at 14km, taking poor damage from the opponent, while it can dish kind of a hard punch to it.
Am I right ?
Well, it *could*, supposing your opponent has no 14km webber, and neutron w/null, or webber drones :P
Anyway, i think that the blasterokh shouldnt be a good blasterboat. Hyperion lock range has been pre-nerfed so it cant snipe, ccp should make sure that the same kinda thing happens with rokh. maybe they'll make it just too slow.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.29 06:47:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 29/07/2006 06:48:10
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Minnow maught
result ... the non blaster ship dishes more damage with a bigger tank!!
* damage mods are very powerful mods, your armor tanked blaster ship will use at least one or two;
* the blaster-rokh won't tackle with a full shield tank;
... at the very least.
NB.
Didn't see this since we posted at nearly the same time. Armortankers have to contend with 4600 grid for their tanks, versus 500 on shield tanks. An XL booster with 2x Invul (while fueld by an injector), while not the greatest tank ever, is mountable with full tackling and an MWD.
That tank is actually realistically comparable to a dualrep tank with 2x EAN II and 1x damage control, except while only using one lowslot (the damage control). So while the armor tanking variant can tank slightly better if it sacrifices it's extra 2 lows (or 1 in the case of the Hyperion) to damage mods - it can't do so with Neutrons and it can't even come close to the combination of repair throughput and damage output that the Rokh fields (Edit : And freaking range).
That is, before we take into account the Rokh's tanking bonus. Once you throw that in there, and maybe go nuts and add LG crystals and not using full tackling for gangwork (it is unnecessary after all) you've got something pretty crazy, whose only drawback is that it can't be turned into a paper-thin gankmachine like the Hyperion and Megathron.
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