| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
14
   |
Posted - 2011.11.24 18:19:00 -
[91] - Quote
Try flying solo in PvP and then tell me ECCM is useless. Always bring your ECCM. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
152
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 02:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
no **** sherlock! And here I was thinking force multipliers divided your fleet strength!
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 03:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Falcon Punch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWfs1QqKfZU |
Lili Lu
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 03:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^
imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis
SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar
Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(
Do you have characters that fly the other races? I have two other characters that both fly Gallente and Caldari ships, Lachesis and Falcon in fact since you mentioned them. Your disingenuous flipant equating of a Lachesis with a Falcon is "dumb." Grow up.
And here I was thinking some of you Falcon apologists would be relieved that I wasn't another voice for nerf - both conceding that ecm is probably safe for the moment and that I wasn't calling for your precious ecm boats to be nerfed. You all say but just fit an eccm. Well if one is to waste a slot for eccm it damn well better be stronger than it is presently. So calling for buffs to eccm is reasonable. As it is constituted now it provides negligible benefit to a small ship because the sensor integrity boost is % based. And what exactly is wrong with asking that if it fails to prevent a jam it should reduce the duration of the jam.
Naomi, You are a very sad amarr posting alt of some Caldari rp whiner. You have to take off your Caldari glasses and look at this game from a comprehensive perspective. Maybe then you'll address arguments with counter arguments or grudging acknowledgment of a problem and some solutions. And, I suggest that since you hate Minmatar so much you create a minmatar character and get some experience with their ships and weapons. It might give you a different perspective, and maybe you'll stop identifying your entire being with a race in a game. |
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 04:04:00 -
[95] - Quote
kyrv wrote:Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.
fill in any sniper. Saw a cerb fit somewhere. Sebo' d out to attack at max range (which on a cerb is waaay the hell out). description for fit was simple enough.....this cerb killed pre-nerf falcons.
have something out of the range of a falcon to kill it. this cerb had no point....but not seeing that matter. falcon pilot either dies or has to gtfo. falcon chooses gtfo....no more jams. Not as sexy as a kill, but sure fleet mates will be happy not being jammed.
All this solo stuff....solo falcon what I feared the least. Burn out and byb bye. hated rapiers and arazu more tbh. rapiers web the crap out of you (met these bubble sitting....\o/, mwd bloom to burn this bubble is killing me and I have 2 webs at least on me for more pain). And my fave azazu setup I met ran damps. Point at longrange, damps so I can't attack. Fine....I'll close to not die like a muppet since I now when it gets ugly for you a covert cyno save won't be a surprise. |
Sven Galli
Drama Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 04:20:00 -
[96] - Quote
WhyTry1 wrote:Apollo Gabriel wrote:I often fit ECCM, not sure why you think people do not. Now I have problems with ECCM, as there aren't ANTI Neut Mods, ANTI TP mods, ANTI web mods, etc. There are cap boosters, abs and mwds that all have a purpose other than ANTI ECM. you must be the only person that does then 
Uhm, no. You may the only one who doesn't.
|
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 04:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:the issue about ECM is a little bit complex. it's not the mods that are overpowered, it's the mechanic itself. The mods work as they are supposed to, which is to be a force multiplier on the battlefield. Due to its nature, it's also limited to X-small to medium sized gang warfare (up to 40-50 people gangs), being large gangs a place where it's better to bring a dps ship.
However, because of how the ECM mechanic is (RNG-based "Yes/No" mechanism), this also means that any nerf you impart on the will make them totally useless. Likewise, a boost, no matter how tiny, will make them much stronger.
Because of these two points, ECM as it is is already balanced to the maximum effect (relatively to totally useless on non specialized hulls, but the specialized hulls are very good at jamming stuff), and because reworking the ECM mechanics from ground up means a total revamp of ECM and even maybe Ewar, doing anything to it is a pretty much daunting task that would probably require a too big ammout of work to make it worthwhile.
TL;DR: ECM is strong, maybe too strong, but it's impossible or highly inefficient to balance it further or overhauling.
best bet would be to boost the other ewar. ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).
+1. This in a nutshell. |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 05:17:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mean, terrible falcon jammed my curse! Until my single flight of warriors forced him off the field in armor.... |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
160
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 05:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
In my opinion, one of the main issues with ECM is that the counter (ECCM) is only useful to counter ECM. This is not the case with other kinds of ewar; The counter to damps (Sebo) is also useful to increase scan res and targeting range even when not damped. The counter to neuts (cap booster) is also useful in many situations where you aren't getting neuted. The counter to a short range scrams and TPs (the AB) is also useful to sigtank. The counter to webs (MWDing and praying they don't have a short scram) is useful for any situation where you need to escape or kite.
Then there's ECM. The counter to it is ECCM, which does nothing but help prevent ECM. This makes it very unfriendly to fit, since if you're not getting jammed, ECCM is literally a waste of a slot, whereas other ewar counters are still useful in virtually any situation.
Perhaps merge ECCM with sensor boosters, and we'll see an increase in the usefulness of it, or give it some distinct and new effect such as reducing the signature radius of the ship using it. Currently, it's just extremely "meh." |
Kovorix
Matari Exodus
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 06:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
Perceptions about ECM vary a lot among players, and basically it depends on what play style people come from. I like to play solo and in small gangs, and ECM to me is absolutely the worst part of the game. For me, Falcons, ECM drones, BBs, etc. completely ruin the fun of a fight. But i can see, coming from a larger gang or efficiency-minded perspective, that falcons are just another tool to be used, and at some point they scale out (that is, the scale of the fight destroys their usefulness).
In trying to formulate a good argument against ECM, I think it's more useful to focus on the mechanic itself. In a competitive game situation, chance should be minimized as much as possible. Of course, a tiny bit of chance makes can make the game more exciting (wrecking shots, etc), but chance should never decide the outcome of a battle if you want your game to be competitive. Take a game like chess for example - chance has been reduced to 0 and thus there is maximum competition.
However, in eve we love variability. There are lots of treasured variables that contribute to the outcome of a fight - skill points, backup, chance encounters with other gangs, fittings and counter fittings etc. However, all of these variables are essentially player-driven. And the ones that are not generally do not affect the outcome of a battle. ECM differs from this model.
In a small-scale fight, a single jam, hit or miss, can determine who wins and loses. While this is tempered somewhat by player choice (choice to fit ECCM, skill in jamming), at its base it remains a simple probability problem - but a probability problem with the capability of making or breaking a fight. I've had fights where a set of small ECM drones jammed me 3 times in a row. I've had others where 2 minutes pass without a single jam from them. This is massive variability, and in each case that variability makes me either win or lose., regardless of what else I did in the fight. This is anti-EVE and anti-fun. ECM needs to be brought in line with other combat systems in order for it to be properly competitive.
ECM needs to be overhauled. The general options, based on the above:
1. Reduce the effectiveness so that the randomness doesn't affect outcomes of fights.
2. Remove the random factor in ECM. Create a new system which is 100% hit-based (like neuts)
I prefer #2, because #1 only nerfs it in line with other bad e-war. It would obviously be complicated to balance, but I hope CCP gets on this asap.
But I think we all can agree: we all love competition more than we love random number generators. |
|
|
Noisrevbus
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 13:13:00 -
[101] - Quote
It's a shame these recurring ECM-threads have such poor quality. I've only seen a couple of decent posts (mainly those from Grimpak and Suitonia) which manage to discuss both the problem and suggestions without any overt tendency or daydreaming.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, the devs made a mistake last time around when they took the easy route out. They chopped survivability, the offensive buffs to balance out was a sham and the system itself was left largely intact (preserving the problems behind the sweepstake of risk in use). It has made, at least falcons and rooks (with inherent risk as tech II ships), ECM ships less common yet still not less potent when you have a numerical advantage and can simply pad with ECM. That remains the only balance-oriented issue: scaling.
The solutions still lie in:
1.
Leaving them be, because most complaints are all passion and no afterthought, while all EWar systems today effectively do what they set out to do, and all other Recon-oriented ships still retain two sets electronic specialisations on top of much stronger hulls. Examples of this are people who compare (situational-) Painters to ECM while ignoring (omni appliable-) Webs; claim that Dampeners are useless without realizing they do their job of limiting lock range quite well both on unbonused and bonused ships (the latter, especially when factoring in your ability to Point, Scram, Tank and do Damage by comparison), or by extension claiming the other Recons tank because they have to - while the truth is that the "Falcon" doesn't because it has to devote 4 slots to even cover the very basics of it's role (where most other systems devote 1 slot) and usually devote up to 9-10 slots to maintain it's role effectively (where the other ships tend to devote 2-5 slots).
2.
Tweaking the existing system mechanics, which proved poor results after the last attempt, with the understanding that you have a very delicate balance to walk on platforms that pay both offensively and defensively to rely on the very system you are tampering with. The best suggestion i've seen in a long time (on account of scaling) was on a community site, where a poster mentioned limiting active modules on the target to 1. It's simple yet quite ingenious since it deals with overstacking and stack-related abuse (making ECCM far more powerful in the process). That means the ECM-ship is just as effective 1:X as it is X:1, without tampering with the core mechanics of sensor-base and chance (or the system's demand on ship- and slot layout).
It does however require to be balanced out since you will throw another delicate balance further astray: that of logistics, or other lynchpin components. In short: if ECM is more difficult to force onto a specific target, the ship definately need more staying power to roll the effect. The best simple solution there remain to script the multispectrals racially, and remove racial mods, since it allow the ECM-pilot options between tank (to cover the loss of offensive depth) and offensive spread (rolling modules on more ships). Without too much work you have made ECM more useful in larger size and undermanned situations, while making them less powerful in smaller size and numerical advantages. Credit to the poster on FHC who hatched the idea, sadly i've lost the name.
3.
Remaking the entire system. When suggesting things like that you need to understand that it require alot of work, and it's delicate not only in terms of "internal balance" or design issues to make the system more user friendly on both the player and developer end, but you also need to consider outside factors such as racial balance or ship- and class balance as whole; because Caldari are in a pretty tight spot as is and you have the old RP-related issues to consider ("Caldari being the most electronic-advanced race") that has left us with additional ECM ships.
Poking around too much will create more and more issues that need to be solved (overhaul ECM > overhaul tech I ECM > overhaul the entire Caldari BS line, you get the idea), which eventually amount to more work. On top of that, no one from the community has yet managed to suggest any even half-decent completely new EWar system(s), let alone considered how to balance them, detail them, allocate them and implement them. I think most of us would prefer CCP spending so much required design-time on something that concern our daily lives more (such as balancing 0.0, because we are looking at similar commitment and proportions). Alot of time on a narrow problem. |
Noisrevbus
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 13:45:00 -
[102] - Quote
A little addendum:
Always keep in mind that when you suggest changes to things you don't manage to find tactical solutions to, you end up cheapening those that do and roles in this game that you have not considered. You've all seen the post in this thread discussing the anti-Falcon Cerberus. What happened to those Cerberus when the Falcon's range got chopped, were they redesigned to find new roles? did the players in those ships use them in any other way? did they even stay within the same race if they changed ships in their respective gang-compositions? The likely answer to all those questions is: No.
Not only do we see less Falcons, but also less Cerberus.
The same would apply to things like Smartbombs, while you complain about ECM-drones or specialised RECCM-ships (which enrich the game by adding dimension to gang-comps) while you complain about Falcons. You may not counter ECM with the "pro move" of smartbombing hordes of EC-300 off your logistics pair or tighten up their aversion with an Oneiros in a triplet like Cry Havoc used to do - but that doesn't mean there aren't groups out there who have spent time comming up with effective counters; once you take the scaling issue aside (since ofc, those counters are not as available when you fly solo).
The day you fit a neut to your "solo BS" because it's staple, yet avoid a smartbomb and complain about EC-300 is also the day you lose credibility.
We should be mindful of streamline for stupid, as the game is less for it. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 14:11:00 -
[103] - Quote
/thread
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Yahrr
The Tuskers
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 15:12:00 -
[104] - Quote
*The Flacon is soooo overpowered, we need off-grid unprobable booster alts to counter it!  |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
0ccupational Hazzard
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 16:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
Kingwood wrote:
Sorry Zhula, Suitonia didn't hijack this thread in any form at all - he made correct statements regarding ECM.
Say hi to Bushmiller if he still plays.
Hi Kingwood. Correct statemets..thats a matter taste. Claiming that one is correct is not making a statement correct.
Maybe I should write a proper post about ECM. I'm just borded of all that
whiny stuff coming again and again :-)
Bushmiller not playing atm, but I'll greet him if he logs on again.
|
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
2327
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Indeed.
CCP Zulu.....
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity
Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 21:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
Falcons are EVE's gaydar.
If youre in one, I got news for you. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 23:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Falcons are EVE's gaydar.
If youre in one, I got news for you.
I thought matards are those :I |
Misnix
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 02:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
No love for the Kitsune?
Its essentially the falcon counter. |
Craoate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 07:08:00 -
[110] - Quote
If falcons are so OP then why is it each time I undock in one my wallet shrieks? Sure corps and alliances can replace them all day...but I can't because
1) They don't make me any money
2) They cost me tons of money
I'm basically giving away 150 mil every time i fly one.
Falcons are shiny cans that can blind a room full of 5-10 people but it only takes one person to get even slightly lucky to CRUSH that can. Yes they are strong in certain situations, but in most they are just another tool for the FC. As said before, 1 Vs. 1 - forget about it 50 Vs. 50 waste of money
The real problem is that those unfortunate enough to get all the right circumstances and get "perma-jammed" in a fight join the "ECM is too Powerful" crusade for life because they can't believe that for a few minutes out of their entire existence in EVE they were a useless pile of s**t. |
|
|
Gorefacer
STRAG3S
THE UNTHINKABLES
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 11:08:00 -
[111] - Quote
I like ECM in general. I think falcons are balanced just fine in the vast majority of engagements. However I will admit there have been times where I was solo or in a small gang and the presence of a falcon ruined what otherwise could have been a great fight. It would be great if there was a way to tweak them so that they couldn't completely nullify nearly any 1-3 man gang yet keep them as effective as they are in all other circumstances.
I could fly my own falcon, or bring more friends or just suck it up and look for other targets. I've done all this and have to agree that overall Falcons aren't a problem to game balance even if they are occasionally frustrating at times. |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |