Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!

Chance based mechanics that basically give a chance of 100% unless people in the opposing fleet have 2+ module slots taken up (PER SHIP) for a counter measure, or a specific implant set, while all other EWAR options are pointless when they do much less than ECM offers.

Moderately useless in large scale fleets but no more so than any other EWAR. In smaller scale it is not so much a force multiplier as a force nullifier. Smaller gang / solo versus an ECM fleet? Say goodbye to your ships and try again...

Cant see anything wrong with that myself.

the reason it got nerfed was because peeople where jamming at long range! obviously this didnt work, and sorry but a ship should not be able to perma jam! even if its specialised.

Why did these every bother getting nerfed...

I often fit ECCM, not sure why you think people do not. Now I have problems with ECCM, as there aren't ANTI Neut Mods, ANTI TP mods, ANTI web mods, etc. There are cap boosters, abs and mwds that all have a purpose other than ANTI ECM.

My head hurts.

Sounds like somebody got jammed. Forum sperg of this magnitude can only be explained by...ohhhh. They used the raspberry, didn't they?!?!

This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.

Please explain how they are not...

you must be the only person that does then

Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!

Sounds like somebody got jammed. Forum sperg of this magnitude can only be explained by...ohhhh. They used the raspberry, didn't they?!?!

Yet ECM ships die by the truck load every week...

On a serious note: If you could assign drone targets even when jammed. It would balance out ECM even further.

I often fit ECCM, not sure why you think people do not. Now I have problems with ECCM, as there aren't ANTI Neut Mods, ANTI TP mods, ANTI web mods, etc. There are cap boosters, abs and mwds that all have a purpose other than ANTI ECM.

Sounds like somebody got jammed. Forum sperg of this magnitude can only be explained by...ohhhh. They used the raspberry, didn't they?!?!

Not only do you not have a clue about ECM, you also appear to lack any knowledge of gunnery combat and falloff.

They most certianly are not overpowered.
Falcons are paper thin, not very agile and are slow as f**k. They also do very little dps.
If anything they need a boost.

If only they'd add something like an Aggressive setting to drones, so they attack anything attacking you....

Man do you have **** skills.

My falcon perma jams at 120kms with no rigs.

Can i have your stuff.

Only ONE person would DARE use raspberry!

My poor litte Falcon, always primaried and with lousy DPS with 425mm ACs since I have no hyrbid skills.

Life is hard sometimes ........

Now that I think about it, I have not seen a single falcon for months...

I planned to have a movie night with a bowl of popcorn, but it seems I forgot to add enough salt. Luckily, your tears did.

Chance based mechanics that basically give a chance of 100% unless people in the opposing fleet have 2+ module slots taken up (PER SHIP) for a counter measure, or a specific implant set, while all other EWAR options are pointless when they do much less than ECM offers.

Moderately useless in large scale fleets but no more so than any other EWAR. In smaller scale it is not so much a force multiplier as a force nullifier. Smaller gang / solo versus an ECM fleet? Say goodbye to your ships and try again...

Cant see anything wrong with that myself.

Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!

Not really. My carrier frequently gets jammed out by EC-300's or a single falcon, even when i fit it its entire low slot and mid slots with nothing but ECCM. And yes i did this, i was undocking / repping people playing station games and even with all my low/mid slots full of ECCM i was still being jammed out perminantly by EC-300's alone. Not even a falcon

At least falcons cost a fair amount. Blackbirds are the most overpowered subcap ship in the game.

Where do you keep this carrier? It sounds overdue for a hull breach.

you must be the only person that does then

Words

Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!

Agreed entirely. ECM needs to be brought into line not so much just to nerf it out of some type of misdirected anger, but to enable other EWar platforms an equal opportunity to be used. As it is, ECM is just so good on bonused hulls that other platforms are dismissed because they aren't nearly as effective.

the issue about ECM is a little bit complex. it's not the mods that are overpowered, it's the mechanic itself. The mods work as they are supposed to, which is to be a force multiplier on the battlefield. Due to its nature, it's also limited to X-small to medium sized gang warfare (up to 40-50 people gangs), being large gangs a place where it's better to bring a dps ship.
However, because of how the ECM mechanic is (RNG-based "Yes/No" mechanism), this also means that any nerf you impart on the will make them totally useless. Likewise, a boost, no matter how tiny, will make them much stronger.
Because of these two points, ECM as it is is already balanced to the maximum effect (relatively to totally useless on non specialized hulls, but the specialized hulls are very good at jamming stuff), and because reworking the ECM mechanics from ground up means a total revamp of ECM and even maybe Ewar, doing anything to it is a pretty much daunting task that would probably require a too big ammout of work to make it worthwhile.


TL;DR: ECM is strong, maybe too strong, but it's impossible or highly inefficient to balance it further or overhauling.

look NO ONE EVER EVER EVER EVER fits hardly 1 ECCM nevermind 2 EVER!!

This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.

ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).

Yet ECM ships die by the truck load every week...

Now that I think about it, I have not seen a single falcon for months...

Guys let me tell you about this one time I got jammed for 2 cycles in a row and then ran like a monkey with it's tail on fire to the forums to complain about being "permajammed"

This is a terrible thread.

TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

this:



this:



this:



and this:

TD's = 100% protection if they enable you to get under the opponents guns. A few frigates can take down turret ship of any size with these. Just lock, TD, kill drones, blow up ship.

SD = almost better than ECM when used properly because while ECM is chance based and can fail, SD always breaks a lock as long as you've done your range math right and have sufficient speed. They jam a lock 100% of the time, and can do so while fitted on ships that aren't even bonused for them, unlike ECM which is restricted to only a few ships to be effective.

TP = great with stealth bombers, drakes, sniper BS, pretty much any situation where you need more DPS on targets smaller than your caliber of weapon. About to become VERY useful with the new Tier 3 BC's - where hitting stuff smaller than your gun caliber will be a critical challenge, easily assisted by fitting a TP, or better yet, bringing along a rapier that could do the job even better. Everyone forgets that gun turrets have their own intrinsic scan resolution that must be smaller than sig radius to do full damage, so tracking is not the only factor in whether you do full DPS. TP are more useful than they are given credit for, they just work differently than the other ewars designed to prevent a ship from shooting back, so they're impossible to compare to something like ECM. Lack of popularity =/= lack of usefulness.

The racial ewar's are only LOL if you haven't seen them used them to frak over an opponent before, using the right ship in the right situation. Falcons and blackbirds are also situational. They are always primary, and can be taken out faster than any other ship that gets used in combat on grid. Falcon / BB pilots must have BALLS. One mistake, and you're toast. I'm fine with those weaknesses being offset by a powerful ewar effect.

And no, I'm not a caldari fanboy. I've never even injected Caldari Cruiser skill (out of hatred for drakes). I've only been on the receiving end of jams, but I've never seen them used often enough to be raising a ruckus about it. If they were used in every fight, it would be one thing. But they're not.

stuff

On a serious note: If you could assign drone targets even when jammed. It would balance out ECM even further.

so from your point of view, if I have the bigger ship I should come on top when going on a 3vs1 where the enemy is prepared and you're just fit to damage. then you decided to call for help and they came unprepared for the engagement as well.





also ECM drones are overrated.

You're missing the point.

From my point of view, you'll get permajammed if there is a falcon, and there is nothing you can do about it except being a sieged dread or a supercapital.

I explained already that a Curse is counterable by using capacitor injectors, a Rapier just slow you down, you can still shoot or remote or whatever, an Arazu can be avoided by grabbing an ennemy ship with your scrambler + web and beat the crap out of it.

What can you do solo vs a Falcon ? Nothing. It will permajam you while this rookie ship kills you at the slow rate of 2hp/3s. Really ?

Bring 2 battleships, they'll get permajammed aswell. Well, maybe not PERMA, but what can you do when the falcon is 110km away. So what are you going to do ? Bring more peoples. Or bring a Falcon. Falcons are a force multiplier, they also create blobs because blobs are the most reliable way to fight falcons.

Oh and don't tell me "you can ask a frigate friend to kill the falcon, because the falcon have no guns and is paperthin", whatever comes under 60km from the falcon will get jammed anyway. Two solutions => Instapop it (Falcon pilots get mad when you do that), or sensor damp it. If you can lock before he locks you. And if you can fit sensor damps (Read : if you are in an armor tanked ship with enough medslots, or a shield tanked ship with too many medslots).

And, on top of that, capboosters, sensor boosters, and all other modules that are supposed to counter an EW ship to increase your ability to fight/lock/move/track EVEN WHEN NOT FIGHTING A EW ship.

ECCMs gimp your fits because you fit them JUST IN CASE THERE IS A FALCON and nothing else.

Sensor boosters don't gimp your fit JUST IN CASE THERE IS AN ARAZU, it helps you out with locking further or locking faster.

Same goes for capboosters, they don't gimp your fit, they are mandatory on Gallente/Amarr ships anyway, and usually usefull on every battleship.

And what is this faggotry about drones ? You can't throw them at a Falcon, because a falcon is usually 100km away from the fight. And don't even think about rushing 50km or so just so you can throw 5 light drones. It's useless.

EDIT : Oh and I forgot the part where a Falcon can COMPLETELY prevent 3 to 4 targets from doing anything, while the other recons can lighly incapacitate 2 targets at most. Don't tell me an Arazu can REALLY incapacitate 4 targets because it has 4 RSDs, or a Curse can incapacitate 4 battleships (Who can avoid that by fitting something usefull, like a capbooster). Oh and the Rapier usually have two webs. Three or four in armor setups, but still, if you want to decrease a target's speed, you want two webs per target. Also, the Rapier is forced to be at medium ranges, while the Falcon can stay at 100/120km all the time.

On a serious note: If you could assign drone targets even when jammed. It would balance out ECM even further.

so the falcon actually acts as a force multiplier, as is its role. Also at 100/120km we're talking about falcons that are already in quite the deep (over 2x) falloff of their jammers, since with max range skills you're looking at 48 opt. + 53falloff for racials and 32 opt + 35 falloff for multis. if you add 2 range rigs, you get a combined optimal+falloff of 67+53, which are your stated 120km.
but then again, at those ranges your jammers are already about half as effective, meaning the 11.25 str racial jammers (max skills no mods), are effectively a 5.8 jammer.

in which case, if your battleships were permajammed by a 5.8 str jammer then you had quite the ******* bad luck

now that 's all said and done, what's the problem then?

edit: then again, you're a goon so you're probably just trolling.

The only reason this problem exist is the unstobable urge people have to min, max every fit.

People don't want to use anti jamming devices because it, costs dps or tank, which is exactly why it works.

Jaming it self doesn't kill, you can always run. a very usefull stratigy now and then.

WTB slot 3 booster to increase sensor strength.

Have you even flown a Falcon?

totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis

SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar

Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(

TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

this:



this:



this:



and this:

This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.

Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.

Indeed they're fine, it's damps that are total crap.

If there's something CCP must do is not nerf paper thin ships a single ceptor can kill with no effort but improve Damps use again by giving racial bonus strong enough like ECM suddenly you'll see those are not that OP

[quote=Naomi Knight]totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

Words.

stuff

totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis

SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar

Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(

Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.

you must be the only person that does then

the issue about ECM is a little bit complex. it's not the mods that are overpowered, it's the mechanic itself. The mods work as they are supposed to, which is to be a force multiplier on the battlefield. Due to its nature, it's also limited to X-small to medium sized gang warfare (up to 40-50 people gangs), being large gangs a place where it's better to bring a dps ship.
However, because of how the ECM mechanic is (RNG-based "Yes/No" mechanism), this also means that any nerf you impart on the will make them totally useless. Likewise, a boost, no matter how tiny, will make them much stronger.
Because of these two points, ECM as it is is already balanced to the maximum effect (relatively to totally useless on non specialized hulls, but the specialized hulls are very good at jamming stuff), and because reworking the ECM mechanics from ground up means a total revamp of ECM and even maybe Ewar, doing anything to it is a pretty much daunting task that would probably require a too big ammout of work to make it worthwhile.


TL;DR: ECM is strong, maybe too strong, but it's impossible or highly inefficient to balance it further or overhauling.


best bet would be to boost the other ewar. ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).

Sorry Zhula, Suitonia didn't hijack this thread in any form at all - he made correct statements regarding ECM.

Say hi to Bushmiller if he still plays.

/thread

Falcons are EVE's gaydar.
If youre in one, I got news for you.