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Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
67491
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 23:19:00 -
[31] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Mizhir wrote:Now tell me what makes drones OP? I'm sure you already know, but to clarify. - Instant damage projection over long range with sentries - Able to switch easily to face small, medium, large targets for optimal damage application. - Highly resistant (effectively immune) to Ewar. - BS levels of DPS possible on sub battleship class ships. - Frigate levels of damage application possible of a battleship. - Weapon uses no high slots so you can fit a full rack of remote reps / nuets. Drawback - Weapons system can be destroyed (although good luck with most drone ships housing 3 more flights, so by the time you've destroyed and targeted them all you will be dead)
Only few ships feature a large enough dronebay to field both sentries, ligths, mediums and heavies.
The ewar immunity is sort of countered by the fact that drones can be killed. And it is still possible to use ewar to clear tackle and escape. But yes the ewar immunity is one of the strong points with drones and is too strong at some points. One suggestion could possible be to make damps able to reduce drone control range.
BS level dps is also reachable on turret ships. And some droneships needs both drones and turrets to reach their high dps.
Light drones on battleships has always been a way to deal with frigs. Considering that many frigs got buffed and BS is heavily nerfed then it was a right choice to improve the anti frig capability of battleships. Remember you can still kill the drone and then the BS is pretty ******.
As mentioned earlier that are some ships that needs their highslots for guns to reach their dps potential. But yes there are other drone ships that got the highs free for pretty much anything. This become a problem when they have the fitting to fill those highs with those modules. Also CCP's crusade against utility highslots has enhanced this strength among droneboats.
One thing you forgot to mention was the flight time of drones. Some drones can still be outrun and most still have a significant flighttime to targets that are furthere away.
So to recacap then I think the problem lies on the ships rather than the weapon system. Namly the Worm, Gila and Ishtar as still strong as **** while VNIs are also rather strong. And lastly, geckos are OP so along is they are as common as they are, there are droneboats that are performing better than they should. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
483
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 23:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
FOTM and alliance tourney meta are not infallible indicators of something being out of balance. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12986
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 23:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:
Drawback
- Weapons system can be destroyed (although good luck with most drone ships housing 3 more flights, so by the time you've destroyed and targeted them all you will be dead)
Drawbacks - Sentries already have terrible tracking vs pilots smart enough not to burn right at you with MWD on. - If the fight moves (warping / high speed combat), you have to fly back and pick up your drones making you extremely vulnerable to the clever pilots expecting this. - sentry loss = ISK loss baltec1 wrote: Yea, nobody uses heavies in pvp over sentries. Sentamon is talking rubbish.
AT, or am I imagining things?
AT is not what happens on Tranq. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 00:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
lol, so many people saying "AT is not TQ" etc.
Anyone care to explain why the popularity of drones in the AT is due to AT mechanics (that don't apply to TQ)?
Medalyn Isis wrote: I'm sure you already know, but to clarify.
- Instant damage projection over long range with sentries - Able to switch easily to face small, medium, large targets for optimal damage application. - Highly resistant (effectively immune) to Ewar. - BS levels of DPS possible on sub battleship class ships. - Frigate levels of damage application possible of a battleship. - Weapon uses no high slots so you can fit a full rack of remote reps / nuets.
Drawback
- Weapons system can be destroyed (although good luck with most drone ships housing 3 more flights, so by the time you've destroyed and targeted them all you will be dead)
This. To add a few off the top of my head: - Damage type selection - Utility drones (jam to get out when you're losing a fight, without the usual tank/dps drawbacks of mid slot utils or low slot stabs) - Can use semi-afk (gate camps, POS sieges, ratting, etc.) - Don't require ammo/cap - Huge range compared to other weapon systems even for small drones
...have every 9 fleet members fit warp core stabs and just assign your drones to one guy instead loaded with sebos... how is that not broken? It's not even necessarily obvious who has all the drones assigned to them. It doesn't take a genius to see that drone mechanics are imbalanced risk/reward etc.
As Medalyn mentioned destroying drones is often not viable - if anything drone damage should come at a trade off of drone HP or something. Fly a gnosis though and you'll see what a more balanced drone ship is like (you can actually run out of drones due to the small drone bay, and you can't carry a variety of drones either, and that's on a BC).
TBH though the entire kite meta is OP. Brawling setups are rare in PvP now for a reason - they are underpowered and too niche in comparison. The tiny amount of DPS gain (which you can lose anyway if you spend more time getting in range, provided you can even get in range) and alpha/range loss simply isn't worth it. Among other things. Even in the AT closed arena (which should be a nerf to kite setups) rarely see brawling doctrines used.
Also drones are just boring atm (which is likely a side effect of them being too easy and OP, common, etc.). I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say drones are ok as-is are just chronic drone users. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2210
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 00:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote: Also drones are just boring atm (which is likely a side effect of them being too easy and OP, common, etc.). I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say drones are ok as-is are just chronic drone users.
And you can bet the complainers are chronic MWD frigate jockies that unlike frig pilots in AT, have no idea how to fly their ship. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1197
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 01:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: Yes I'd agree, although heavy drones are still far too powerful for a cruiser. The pace of change is very slow. Restricting drones to their specific class of ship, or at least their bonuses, would be a quick solution. I was hoping the alliance tournament might be a wake up call though for CCP to get their act together. The Ishtar nerf was insignificant in comparison to the problem.
What about afk cloakers with drones?
This is a very scary type of AFK cloaker. Just think about what those drones could do while the player is AFK... CCP needs to look into this now! |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4503
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 01:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
OP, don't be racist.
DRONES ARE PEOPLE TOO!! WHERE'S THE LOVE???
Won't somebody please think of the drones? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4503
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 01:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
For the record, it wasn't that long ago that people were complaining about drones being too weak. In fact, there was a period here on the forums where they were being complained about for simultaneously being too weak and too strong. As a regular and experienced drone user with more than just 0 kills to 23 losses on his killboard, I'm prepared to admit that they're incredibly versatile compared to other weapons systems.
Too strong? No. My drones outright refuse to carry my luggage for me when we get home. They're too lazy to be too strong.
Too weak? I asked one of my Hobgoblin's, Dasher (I name them after reindeer), in the Skylark's (that's what I call my favourite Ishkur fit) drone bay if it was feeling a bit weak after a close call just the other day. He immediately jumped up and took off, telling me he was running away from home to prove himself by taking down Goonswarm all by himself. On the way to nul, he said, he'd be single-handedly removing Concord from highsec.
That kind of bravery is not weakness.
EDT: I actually have some serious arguments for this, but it's nothing that hasn't been said before, either on this thread or elsewhere. Drones are fine. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
16735
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 01:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
I remember when missiles and Drakes were OP....
It seems so long ago now.. Sigh. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5390
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 02:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I remember when missiles and Drakes were OP....
It seems so long ago now.. Sigh.
Yeah I was just thinking how back in 2010-2011 it was Drakes Drakes Drakes and at least once a week a thread that summed up to "CCP why you no like Gallente".
Gallente ships were a joke back then with the Mega being for the most part a gank boat and the domi was for neutral RR in cases of highsec agro fu.
A Gallente ship fought like this:
- get jammed damped and disrupted. - not have FOF missiles (as lame as they are) so you had nothing - get webbed and scrammed to a slow crawl that would make TiDi look like fast forward while trying to get within range - watch the enemy tank your drones while they sniped you (and even the tackler could tank them)
So some improvements were made, and now look at the complaints. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1199
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 02:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I remember when missiles and Drakes were OP....
It seems so long ago now.. Sigh.
If CCP does to drones what they did to the Drake please refund all of my SP in this category.. |
Angeal MacNova
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
192
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 03:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
1. Drones are only considered OP when used by key ships. Maybe the issue isn't the drones but those key ships.
2. Even if point 1 is untrue and drones are simply OP, they are OP in PvP. They are not OP in PvE. If it's the drones that are to be nerfed, then the AI better get reverted back to what it was. Where you could use them with impunity against NPC ships.
3. Perhaps smart bombs should be made "smart". |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1664
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 03:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Drones were awful as a primary weapon for literally years. I'm not super concerned about them getting their time in the sun. |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 05:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
If you're going to say drones are fine as they are now, at least provide reasons for your opinion.
Medalyn listed a bunch of pros/cons for drones (mostly pros, which is the problem). Why are drones *not* OP? What are some pros that other weapon systems have over drones? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9545
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 05:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:If you're going to say drones are fine as they are now, at least provide reasons for your opinion.
Medalyn listed a bunch of pros/cons for drones (mostly pros, which is the problem). Why are drones *not* OP? What are some pros that other weapon systems have over drones?
Except for missiles, none of them have travel time. Of course, sentry drones ignore that.
Other than that, it's that turrets/launcher cannot be destroyed, but since half of them can be capped out I'd say that evens out. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Cherry Yeyo
76
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 05:15:00 -
[46] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:So we have all been saying drones are OP except for the few that just trained to fly an Ishtar. The alliance tournament seems to confirm this. So, how long until the new dawn for the turret. The drone meta is getting boring now, and I am looking forward to it being shaken up. So how long do we have to wait?
Please observe my signature CCP Rise>Sentry drones have enormous downsides |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24442
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 05:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:So we have all been saying drones are OP No.
Quote:- Instant damage projection over long range with sentries - Able to switch easily to face small, medium, large targets for optimal damage application. - Highly resistant (effectively immune) to Ewar. - BS levels of DPS possible on sub battleship class ships. - Frigate levels of damage application possible of a battleship. - Weapon uses no high slots so you can fit a full rack of remote reps / nuets. So what you're saying is nerf turret highslots?
And you forgot a number of drawbacks, such as having to choose between being able to move and being able to do those GÇ£easy switchesGÇ¥ you're talking about. Incidentally, not moving is generally a bad idea.
Gavin Dax wrote:Anyone care to explain why the popularity of drones in the AT is due to AT mechanics (that don't apply to TQ)? You know where the enemy is and at what range and at what numbers and in what sizes ships. You know this because it is the exact same thing as for you. Drones have specific counters GÇö in AT, those are not something you necessarily want to bring because they cost too much, neither of which applies to TQ. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Keldor Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 06:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Mizhir wrote:Now tell me what makes drones OP? I'm sure you already know, but to clarify. - Instant damage projection over long range with sentries - Able to switch easily to face small, medium, large targets for optimal damage application. - Highly resistant (effectively immune) to Ewar. - BS levels of DPS possible on sub battleship class ships. - Frigate levels of damage application possible of a battleship. - Weapon uses no high slots so you can fit a full rack of remote reps / nuets. Drawback - Weapons system can be destroyed (although good luck with most drone ships housing 3 more flights, so by the time you've destroyed and targeted them all you will be dead)
You just perfectly summed up why drones are such a great primary weapon system. They are really unique since you can "disarm" a drone ship. I hope CCP adds another drone-based pirate faction so we can just have fucktons of drones. The meta would shake up so much. Maybe they could buff defender missiles as a sort of counter against drones and you will see people running cruisers with rlml smartbomb combos as a hard counter for drones lol.
I for one welcome our drone overlords. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5394
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 07:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Keldor Eternia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Mizhir wrote:Now tell me what makes drones OP? I'm sure you already know, but to clarify. - Instant damage projection over long range with sentries - Able to switch easily to face small, medium, large targets for optimal damage application. - Highly resistant (effectively immune) to Ewar. - BS levels of DPS possible on sub battleship class ships. - Frigate levels of damage application possible of a battleship. - Weapon uses no high slots so you can fit a full rack of remote reps / nuets. Drawback - Weapons system can be destroyed (although good luck with most drone ships housing 3 more flights, so by the time you've destroyed and targeted them all you will be dead) You just perfectly summed up why drones are such a great primary weapon system. They are really unique since you can "disarm" a drone ship. I hope CCP adds another drone-based pirate faction so we can just have fucktons of drones. The meta would shake up so much. Maybe they could buff defender missiles as a sort of counter against drones and you will see people running cruisers with rlml smartbomb combos as a hard counter for drones lol. I for one welcome our drone overlords.
Probably the only real advantage of drones that I see is that it's the only weapons system that can be effective when the mothership is jammed.
Makes me wonder how many in the "nerf drones" crowd were the ones perma-jamming their opponents in PVP regularly before.
We can't have our cake and eat it too. This is Eve. The cake is a lie.
The unique qualities of drones as a weapons system add much to the game. But if there is any nerf to what we consider "drone boats", such that they would lose high slot turrets, then it's only fair then that further emphasizing primary weapons system and removing said high slots should translate to said ships being able to field more than five drones. I don't want to see the domi, etc. lose high slots because it was said drones were OP as a primary weapon and then the same ships have to go up against Navy Drakes and assorted 6+ high slot ships with 5 measly drones. If the Hyperion were to lose a high slot for example then it should get to be able to field 6 drones and get a bandwidth boost.
(IMO it should have been this way with Gallente all along, whereas Caldari as "distanc jam and missiles" Gallente, their traditional enemy, would be "armor tank and drones") Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 07:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Except for missiles, none of them have travel time. Of course, sentry drones ignore that.
Right. The flexibility of drones to just bypass this "downside" by using sentries is part of what makes them imbalanced.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Other than that, it's that turrets/launcher cannot be destroyed, but since half of them can be capped out I'd say that evens out.
It evens out, but drones are way better than those weapon systems in terms of range/damage application and flexibility (not to mention even on-paper DPS is often equivalent or better in some cases). They use no ammo, they have ewar immunity, free utility high slots, etc. etc.
Tippia wrote: So what you're saying is nerf turret highslots?
Not necessarily. Provide more utility highs for turret ships/make the existing ones actually usable (reduce fitting requirements on these ships for non-turret/launcher modules?), or give drone ships less high slots. Many ways to go about re-balancing, and this still wouldn't address other advantages of drones that come at no trade-off when compared to other weapon systems.
Tippia wrote: And you forgot a number of drawbacks, such as having to choose between being able to move and being able to do those "easy switches" you're talking about. Incidentally, not moving is generally a bad idea.
Not sure what you mean here. How do you need to sacrifice mobility in order to switch your drones?
Tippia wrote: You know where the enemy is and at what range and at what numbers and in what sizes ships.
So unlike TQ, you know that they will be within 250 km of you, and that their fleet power will be roughly equivalent to yours. I don't see how that would impact your decision of whether or not to use drones in a meaningful way. What exactly are the counters that you wouldn't want to field in an AT? These really just seem like the same decisions you'd be making on TQ.
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4510
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Posted - 2014.09.06 07:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Gavin...
Oh Gavin Gavin Gavin.
Gavin Dax wrote:Not sure what you mean here. How do you need to sacrifice mobility in order to switch your drones?
Never used sentry drones, have you.
Sentry drones don't move. They don't chase your target, they don't return to drone bay if you've moved off somewhere. They just sit there like static gun emplacements.
Please, if you're going to argue about the effectiveness of drones, bring some experience to the table to argue with. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Ssabat Thraxx
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
412
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 08:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ya know, for once I'd like to see someone say something like, "make x and y better to compensate against or be more evenly-balanced with Z"
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO
wtf is wrong with you people who always cry for nerfing something when instead you could be asking to buiff other things to be more in line with that which you think is OP?
Goes back to something I said a while back; Iv'e been playing mmos since the days before anyone had a (ermagherd) 3D video card. These games all end the same way: the gaming directors end up getting all their "feedback" from the vocal minority of whiners, and after enough of their whines get taken care of, the silent majority jumps ship and heads off to the next mmo to do it all again, right down to the whiners ruining THAT game, too.
It's the circle of life, MMO-style.
Either the rules apply to everyone, or they don't justly apply to anyone.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12992
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 08:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Gavin... Oh Gavin Gavin Gavin. Gavin Dax wrote:Not sure what you mean here. How do you need to sacrifice mobility in order to switch your drones? Never used sentry drones, have you. Sentry drones don't move. They don't chase your target, they don't return to drone bay if you've moved off somewhere. They just sit there like static gun emplacements. Please, if you're going to argue about the effectiveness of drones, bring some experience to the table to argue with.
Also many ships can move just as fast as drones or faster. Even if you are moving slower than the drones having the drones chase you to dock takes up a great deal of time. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12992
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 08:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote: wtf is wrong with you people who always cry for nerfing something when instead you could be asking to buiff other things to be more in line with that which you think is OP?
You don't buff your way out of an imbalance as that leads to power creep. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
5760
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 08:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote: wtf is wrong with you people who always cry for nerfing something when instead you could be asking to buiff other things to be more in line with that which you think is OP?
You don't buff your way out of an imbalance as that leads to power creep. What's the difference if it's all equal? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
718
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 08:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
Drones have their downsides.
There is no implant set that improves them. There are no boosters to improve them. Their damage is the low side of average. They can be destroyed fairly easily if they don't come out of a Gurista ship. If anyone bothers to counter them you run out quickly. Ships intended to use them as primary weapons lose a slot for the privilege. Honest to god, if I could get 8 mids and lows on all my drone ships and only have 2-4 highs, I'd take that deal.
They have their upsides too.
No one likes to counter them, because it's not as fun to kill a drone as it is to kill the ship it came from. They are resistant to Ewar, though this is in no way the immunity claimed by the OP---in fact a healthy knowledge of drone targeting mechanics makes them about as challenging as any other NPC to deal with. They do have rather amazing application potential, though this comes at the cost of a lot of raw damage when you step down to smaller drone sizes. Even the argument of the range of light drones comes with the draw back that any mobile drone further than about 15km from your ship is on a suicide mission.
Most of the upsides of drones have downsides of their own, and then drones as a whole have downsides.
Drones were a joke before Ishtars and Domi's got a free Omni-tracker built in. Somehow this breaks EVE. Even the introduction of Drone Damage Augmenters didn't cause the uproar that the tracking bonus did. Drones have counters, it's just inconvenient.
Lastly... if you are being kited by a ship using sentries, you might want to look into how sentries actually work, and adjust accordingly. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
303
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 10:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
The main issue with drones is that they are too effective at easily switching to counter any threat. No sacrifices need to be made in fittings as is the case with turrets and missiles.
With turrets, you either choose close range and good tracking, or long range and bad tracking. Also this is further modified by the fact that if for some reason you want to fit frigate class weapons on a battleship, you will sacrifice all your high slots and won't get any bonus to them. Ie it isn't feasible. And due to PG requirements, it isn't also feasible to fit BS class weapons on a frigate.
With missiles, it is similar to above, except for the fact that missiles have different modifiers for applying their damage.
With drones on the other hand, you can quite easily equip drones to counter every class of ship, and can switch this all on the fly whilst having all your remaining high slots free for RR or nuets. On top of that you are effectively immune to ewar, and can assign your drones to a fast locking ship so you don't even need to target the enemy and press F1 yourself.
This is a clear imbalance, and gives a massive advantage to drones which goes against the current rock/paper/scissors paradigm which everything else follows in eve.
It also makes it a dumb weapon system, dumb in the fact that little sacrifice is needed to be made to counter everything, and there are very few variables to take into consideration other than selecting the right type of drone for the target. Dumb weapon systems which bypass the tried and tested meta which applies to turrets/missiles, means that drone users are bypassing an enjoyable and integral part of the game, therefore making the game less fun.
I have maximum skills in drones but I can still accept this is a problem, the reason is that it makes other ships which I also have high skills for and enjoy flying obsolete.
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24449
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 10:31:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:Not necessarily. Why not? You can create almost the exact same list for them? If drones are OP, then so are highslots and for much the same reason.
Quote:Not sure what you mean here. How do you need to sacrifice mobility in order to switch your drones? A quick switch between sentries means you have to sit next to them. A switch between anything else will not be quick because the drones will have to travel between you and the target. If you want to be able to get out, you will have to be right next to your drones at all times, rather than in a position of an advantage.
Quote:So unlike TQ, you know that they will be within 250 km of you, and that their fleet power will be roughly equivalent to yours. I don't see how that would impact your decision of whether or not to use drones in a meaningful way. GǪand you also know the composition and intent. You know how they will move. All of this means that drones are always a good idea, and some particular drones are a particularly good idea GÇö an assumption that does not hold up if you remove the restrictions of an AT match.
On TQ, you don't know what drones to bring and what will be done to them. They might turn out to be completely useless because they can't actually engage any of the targets, or even reach the target if they can engage, or GÇö hell GÇö they'll pretty much just insta-explode if you try to bring them out. It's not whether you choose to use them or not, but about whether they can be used in a meaningful way. In an AT match, there's very little that will ever make them useless; outside of one, there are so many situations where they will be more of a liability than anything.
Derrick Miles wrote:What's the difference if it's all equal? The difference is that buffing your way into power-creep in a (always ultimately failed) attempt at balancing something out is impossible without creating far bigger balance issues than the one you tried to fix to begin with.
Nerfing is a far more precise and efficient balancing tool than power-creep buffing can ever hope to be.
Medalyn Isis wrote:The main issue with drones is that they are too effective at easily switching to counter any threat. No sacrifices need to be made in fittings as is the case with turrets and missiles. They're not different than any other part of your fit for the simple reason that they are part of your fit. These days, swapping other fitting options out is almost easier than it is with drones.
Not to mention that ships that can carry enough drones to actually take advantage of any kind of drone versatility are themselves not as capable as the non-drone ships. Most ships can't fit to match every size target. Some drone-based ships can, but they pay a price for that ability: they can't hit nearly as hard against any given type of ship as the non-drone ships can. You switch versatility for power GÇö not a particularly strange or unbalanced concept. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 11:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
2.5 yrs like in the old days :P |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
719
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Posted - 2014.09.06 11:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:The main issue with drones is that they are too effective at easily switching to counter any threat. No sacrifices need to be made in fittings as is the case with turrets and missiles.
With turrets, you either choose close range and good tracking, or long range and bad tracking. Also this is further modified by the fact that if for some reason you want to fit frigate class weapons on a battleship, you will sacrifice all your high slots and won't get any bonus to them. Ie it isn't feasible. And due to PG requirements, it isn't also feasible to fit BS class weapons on a frigate.
With missiles, it is similar to above, except for the fact that missiles have different modifiers for applying their damage.
With drones on the other hand, you can quite easily equip drones to counter every class of ship, and can switch this all on the fly whilst having all your remaining high slots free for RR or nuets. On top of that you are effectively immune to ewar, and can assign your drones to a fast locking ship so you don't even need to target the enemy and press F1 yourself.
This is a clear imbalance, and gives a massive advantage to drones which goes against the current rock/paper/scissors paradigm which everything else follows in eve.
It also makes it a dumb weapon system, dumb in the fact that little sacrifice is needed to be made to counter everything, and there are very few variables to take into consideration other than selecting the right type of drone for the target. Dumb weapon systems which bypass the tried and tested meta which applies to turrets/missiles, means that drone users are bypassing an enjoyable and integral part of the game, therefore making the game less fun.
I have maximum skills in drones but I can still accept this is a problem, the reason is that it makes other ships which I also have high skills for and enjoy flying obsolete.
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look.
You seem confused as to how these ships work.
Have you ever tried to outrun a heavy drone? It's actually pretty easy. You can't outrun sentries, but you don't have to stay close enough to be hit by them either.
No fast drone switching is occurring in any fight where you are putting out sentry damage and also applying neuts. To hear you tell it, ships are putting out sentry damage from light drones that are impossible to damage and have become magically immune to ECM. The weapon system as a whole has most of those properties, but not in any one drone. You get high dps, or high tracking. You get great range, but anyone with a MWD can outrun weight appropriate drones. Each advantage you list for drones is mitigated by complications that generally do not exist for other weapons.
They are great weapons, but they are not God mode.
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