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smoogie
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Posted - 2006.07.30 03:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: smoogie on 30/07/2006 03:45:18
We've already heard some rumors from devs that the Apoc was going to get looked at. I suggest making it into a Arbitrator succesor, but in a way that will not negate the value, purpose, or function of the Dominix. Keep the Abaddon they way the preliminary stats show it to be. It's the Apoc that needs to be changed-- I suggest it be made the Arbitrator's natural big sister.
Make the slot layout 6/6/6, 3 turret, 2 launcher, 1 utility (similar split like the Arby)
150 m3 drone bay, 12000-ish grid, 600-ish CPU
Bonus #1: 10% to drone damage and 20% to drone optimal range per level (No drone durability bonus)
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
The smallish drone bay along with no durability bonus will limit it's use as a pure, close-range droneboat. Moreover, the drone optimal range bonus is really only useful for sentry drones, making it "different" from the domi. This new Apoc will be about to play sniper with tracking Disruptor EW effectively at 150km+, although damage output will be rather weak (~300-350 dps). This will be Amarr's answer to the long-range Rokh.
This new Apoc will give the Amarr much versatility with the ability to choose damage types, play EWar in fleet battles, and finally have more than 4 mid slots on a BS.
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Kaladr
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 03:55:00 -
[2]
How about no?
Apoc is not broken.
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itsatrappp
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Posted - 2006.07.30 03:59:00 -
[3]
even IF the devs were going to look at this, you have made it WAY to powerfulll
way to much grid for a drone boat,and way to many mid slots. also WAY to much cpu.
what could you not solo pwn with this ship?
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webkert
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 06:26:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Kaladr
How about no?
Apoc is not broken.
In which pvp situation is apoc better then geddon or abaddon, if abaddon gets resistance and rof bonus?
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.07.30 06:27:00 -
[5]
WTF. lolz
drugs are bad mmmk?
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smoogie
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Posted - 2006.07.30 17:49:00 -
[6]
Edited by: smoogie on 30/07/2006 17:51:03
Originally by: webkert
Originally by: Kaladr
How about no?
Apoc is not broken.
In which pvp situation is apoc better then geddon or abaddon, if abaddon gets resistance and rof bonus?
Exactly. The Apoc is very broken with the Abaddon. Compounded with laser balance EANM2 issues, it is probably the worst BS in the game. The amarr are the only ones right now that have ZERO variety with their BS -- Gallente get to choose drones or rails/blasters, Caldari get to choose EW or missiles, Minmatar get to choose the close-range torpedo/AC typhoon or the pure-gun tempest.
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Dixon
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Posted - 2006.07.30 17:51:00 -
[7]
The apoc really needs a fix, it is bar none the worst BS in the game. But a drone ship with 150m3 drone bay... that's a nerf.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: smoogie
Make the slot layout 6/6/6, 3 turret, 2 launcher, 1 utility (similar split like the Arby)150 m3 drone bay, 12000-ish grid, 600-ish CPU
Bonus #1: 10% to drone damage and 20% to drone optimal range per level (No drone durability bonus)
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
1. too small a dronebay for a droneboat
2. drone optimal only works on the sentries which are rather crappy to start with (and should best be forgotten...well thats propably just a taste question)
3. sentries also only work within your drone control range so that would need a boost as well
4. tracking disruptors arent that great without the arbis effectiveness bonus
5. even with the added bonus to drone controll range i dont think that ship would be all that usefull given our already good supply of snipers...gonna look into sentries a bit more but i dont think they'll be worth it.
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smoogie
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:18:00 -
[9]
Edited by: smoogie on 30/07/2006 18:22:52
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: smoogie
Make the slot layout 6/6/6, 3 turret, 2 launcher, 1 utility (similar split like the Arby)150 m3 drone bay, 12000-ish grid, 600-ish CPU
Bonus #1: 10% to drone damage and 20% to drone optimal range per level (No drone durability bonus)
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
1. too small a dronebay for a droneboat
2. drone optimal only works on the sentries which are rather crappy to start with (and should best be forgotten...well thats propably just a taste question)
3. sentries also only work within your drone control range so that would need a boost as well
4. tracking disruptors arent that great without the arbis effectiveness bonus
5. even with the added bonus to drone controll range i dont think that ship would be all that usefull given our already good supply of snipers...gonna look into sentries a bit more but i dont think they'll be worth it.
The ideal long range setup with the bonuses would be 6 drone link augmentators in the highs, 1-2 sensor boosters, 2-4 tracking disruptors, and 1-2 omnidirectional tracking links. The lows would be a tank or with perhaps 1-2 signal amps. This will allow Warden drones to hit at 160km+ with tracking disruptors also effective at that range (all of this requires good skills in drones, Electronics and BS lvl).
Five Warden I with the 10% bonus at BS lvl 4 and Drone Interfacing lvl 4 will do about 300-350 dps at 160km+. But the new Apoc will also be able to tracking disruptor at that range, making it quite versatile. The 6/6/6 layout along with the drone and EW bonus makes it an extremely versatile ship at long range.
Alternatively, one could use Garde drones effectively up to 70km with the optimal range bonuses. This would give the ship 400 dps+ at medium to long-range combat. This is NOT a close-range drone BS like the Domi. No durability bonuses means the drones are weak and the smallish drone bay means it needs to stay out of range.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:19:00 -
[10]
Seems to be alot of threads about changing every ship lately. How about just.... not. 
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OhMyGodess
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:22:00 -
[11]
apoc is ok as it is - nice1 arty platform
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Cmdr Sy
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:45:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 30/07/2006 18:48:47
For PVP, the Apoc is a real mediocrity. It is not completely useless - at the end of the day an experienced user will still get kills - but what is the point of paying more, when the Armageddon is so much better?
How often do you see an Apoc flown in PVP? Compared to the number of Armageddons out there?
The problem is, it lacks a role, and it has been underutilised ever since T2 large guns gave the Armageddon an even bigger edge. The Apoc has no useful role bonus. So it can tank better than other ships. Great. That just means you can cap neut, are good at sentry-tanking, or in a fleet battle you get saved for later.
Compare the slot layout and CPU / powergrid to a Megathron. It's funny that you can actually stick a Blasterthron fitting on an Apoc. And although it won't be as good as a Blasterthron, you have to ask, is the Apoc any more fun, useful, effective, better, with Tachyons fitted?
No.
In fact, you may as well go with the Blasterpoc setup because in a close-range squad fight, the WTF factor and being near the bottom on the fleet commander's mental list, may actually hand you the fight. And you will have a far bigger laugh with a Blasterpoc than aligned on the 100km line.
The Apoc is great for mining. And missions too, provided you are killing Sansha, Serpentis, Mordus Legion, Amarr Navy or Slavers. But seldom in the last year and a half have I seen it deployed as a staple PVP BS, nor would I ever do so myself.
EDIT: But turning the Apoc into a fat Arbitrator - no way in hell.
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Andreask14
Sensus Numinis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 30/07/2006 18:54:16
The apoc can use dual reppers fueled indefinately without an injector if you DONT fire any lasers. 
Its also a medicore NPC ship when going against laser resistant NPCs, because of the two launcher and the unbreakable tank. Might just as well forget about the laser in this situation tho.
If the apoc shall stay the way it is, why not up its cap bonus from 5% to 10%, so it can use dual repps while still firing its guns from time to time and no fitting ALL slots with cap chargers/relays?
That will still keep its uselessness in PvP.
But there is no easy fix for that with the abbadon doing all this and being better at it.
________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
Sniser
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.07.30 19:30:00 -
[14]
nice fix for apoc is give them more drone bay with these bonus...
damage and armor to drones
bonus capacitor Capacity per level
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 20:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: smoogie
The ideal long range setup with the bonuses would be 6 drone link augmentators in the highs, 1-2 sensor boosters, 2-4 tracking disruptors, and 1-2 omnidirectional tracking links. The lows would be a tank or with perhaps 1-2 signal amps. This will allow Warden drones to hit at 160km+ with tracking disruptors also effective at that range (all of this requires good skills in drones, Electronics and BS lvl).
Five Warden I with the 10% bonus at BS lvl 4 and Drone Interfacing lvl 4 will do about 300-350 dps at 160km+. But the new Apoc will also be able to tracking disruptor at that range, making it quite versatile. The 6/6/6 layout along with the drone and EW bonus makes it an extremely versatile ship at long range.
Alternatively, one could use Garde drones effectively up to 70km with the optimal range bonuses. This would give the ship 400 dps+ at medium to long-range combat. This is NOT a close-range drone BS like the Domi. No durability bonuses means the drones are weak and the smallish drone bay means it needs to stay out of range.
hmmm well it could work.
however i'm not sure if we really need another medium range sniping ship and how it would compare to a turret (laser) sniper in terms of damage. the small dronebay would require you to decide on a type of drone (damage) before undocking as well as you cant really mix sentries due to their different ranges. so the damage type changing/mixing advantage of droneboats would be lost mostly.
also with its bonuses, highslots and hardpoints it would be pretty much limited to that setup to be efficient.
a normal droneboat with the 10% dmg/hitpoints bonus would not be able to reach out just as far but with 3x drone tracking mods and link augmentors it should also be able to reach about 80km with sentrie drones without being reduced to using them in order to get something out of its bonuses. in addition to that a normal droneboat can also make use of its bonuses at shortrange with combat/logistic/combat utility/ewar drones.
so compared to a normal droneboat i dont see too many uses for such a ship. especially with our other abilities to affect the 70-160km range you speak of.
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Nadia Kerensky
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Posted - 2006.07.30 20:26:00 -
[16]
Yes, can we make the osprey an artillery platform as well 
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Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 21:22:00 -
[17]
Give it a +6 warp core strength too, just for fun.
_______________________________________________
* United Territories Space Command *
-"Conquest Through Industry"-
UTSC FTW!
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O'Sirius
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 22:24:00 -
[18]
Why do people think Abbaddon is goign to be any good? Its going to eat through its cap within 30 seconds.
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Mr Peanut
The New Empire
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.07.30 23:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mr Peanut on 30/07/2006 23:27:58
Arby has the same big sister as the ishkur...the Domi. That is the end-all drone BS and live with it. If Amarr got a tier 2 drone BS and Gallente only got a tier 1 one, there would be mass Intaki suicide.
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Kazaam
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 23:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: smoogie
20% to drone optimal range
I'd have said "drone control range"
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 23:42:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 30/07/2006 23:42:15
Originally by: Mr Peanut
Edited by: Mr Peanut on 30/07/2006 23:27:58
Arby has the same big sister as the ishkur...the Domi. That is the end-all drone BS and live with it.
unfortunately the domi is not an amarrian battleship though and amarrian battleships are in dire need of some more variety.
Originally by: Mr Peanut
If Amarr got a tier 2 drone BS and Gallente only got a tier 1 one, there would be mass Intaki suicide.
so thats basicly a win-win scenario.
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.31 00:38:00 -
[22]
Make the Abaddon the carrier leave my tanking Apoc alone. 
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White Ronin
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Posted - 2006.07.31 02:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mr Peanut
Edited by: Mr Peanut on 30/07/2006 23:27:58
Arby has the same big sister as the ishkur...the Domi. That is the end-all drone BS and live with it. If Amarr got a tier 2 drone BS and Gallente only got a tier 1 one, there would be mass Intaki suicide.
Intaki DEFECTION.
Just get a new citizenship and a new ship and you are good to go.
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JoeT
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 02:20:00 -
[24]
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
no... 5% would be fair, just like its younger brother.
but the apoc is a decent ship as it stands and doesnt need to be messed with.
But i am pretty happy with the apoc when i do fly it... well that is if i am not flying the geddon
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Murder Murder, yes indeed, K-I-L-L-I-N-G
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Stanis
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 02:52:00 -
[25]
Oh my God. The new ship is not even out, and you allready concluded that it made Apoc broken. Damn it ppl use your brain instead of trying to fit 8xbest t2 guns and GOOD TANK. Or go play some other game. If they change the Apoc in a GREAT extent I will be very dissapointed.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.31 03:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kazaam
Originally by: smoogie
20% to drone optimal range
I'd have said "drone control range"
You need the optimal bonus to get sentry drones out there. Fill highs with drone range control mods, toss omni tracking links in the mids. Fill the rest of your mids with tracking disruptors, and then fit a kickass armor tank in the lows.
This ship would have a decent amount of CPU but not many turret or missile slots as most of it's highs would be intended to be filled with drone range mods.
Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes |
El Ponja
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 03:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: OhMyGodess
apoc is ok as it is - nice1 arty platform
lol
i couldnt have proved the point the apoc is broken better that you.
That pretty much summerized it up, when a ship is better using another race weapon and not the intended one is becouse its all messed up.
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Amarr
KhanidMKII |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:49:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/07/2006 09:52:34
Originally by: Stanis
Oh my God. The new ship is not even out, and you allready concluded that it made Apoc broken. Damn it ppl use your brain instead of trying to fit 8xbest t2 guns and GOOD TANK. Or go play some other game. If they change the Apoc in a GREAT extent I will be very dissapointed.
1. for pvp reason the apoc's bonuses aren't all that great to begin with...no need to wait for the abaddon to find out that the apoc could use some love.
2.
Originally by: tux introducing his abaddon
It has the option of more damage than an Armageddon or a better tank than an Apocalypse.
given that this ship will have a 5% resistance bonus and one more lowslot its not realy hard to see why it will make the apoc redundant when it comes to tanking. and as tanking is pretty much all the apoc is really good at there will not be much use for an apoc after such an abaddon is released.
whether or not you fit 8x best t2 guns on it or not doesnt really matter in this regard.
thats not to say that a long range sentry drone apoc would see a lot more use really. such a ship would be very much specialized and forced into a single role. a role which i'm not convinced is really needed for an amarrian fleet as it already has good options when it comes to dealing damage at this range.
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Uther Doull
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.31 12:13:00 -
[29]
tier 2 battleship with only 18 slots? no thanks, apco could use a little boost but not like this bleh, if i want a drone ship i'll train for the domi thank you
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FawKa
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 12:30:00 -
[30]
maybe the poc is broken, I dont know and dont care much as I dont use em - I do care about balance tho'.
making the poc into a droneboat just out of nowhere - no. making it with an EW bonus - no. thats not balance.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=369662&page=1#10
Link to banner |
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.31 12:37:00 -
[31]
The Apoc isnt balanced atm, its the worst BS in the game.
The devs are aware of this, as they said during one of the dev features on eve-tv that the apoc will get a complete overhaul.
________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
FawKa
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 12:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Andreask14
The Apoc isnt balanced atm, its the worst BS in the game.
The devs are aware of this, as they said during one of the dev features on eve-tv that the apoc will get a complete overhaul.
Would be okay with me, but please, no drone ownage :) and lasers can not shoot with ex - thats just a fact.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=369662&page=1#10
Link to banner |
Garia666
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 13:00:00 -
[33]
i only fly geddon actualy.. it will be intresting to see what the devs are going to do with the appoc
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Talasan
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: smoogie
Edited by: smoogie on 30/07/2006 03:45:18
We've already heard some rumors from devs that the Apoc was going to get looked at. I suggest making it into a Arbitrator succesor, but in a way that will not negate the value, purpose, or function of the Dominix. Keep the Abaddon they way the preliminary stats show it to be. It's the Apoc that needs to be changed-- I suggest it be made the Arbitrator's natural big sister.
Make the slot layout 6/6/6, 3 turret, 2 launcher, 1 utility (similar split like the Arby)
150 m3 drone bay, 12000-ish grid, 600-ish CPU
Bonus #1: 10% to drone damage and 20% to drone optimal range per level (No drone durability bonus)
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
The smallish drone bay along with no durability bonus will limit it's use as a pure, close-range droneboat. Moreover, the drone optimal range bonus is really only useful for sentry drones, making it "different" from the domi. This new Apoc will be about to play sniper with tracking Disruptor EW effectively at 150km+, although damage output will be rather weak (~300-350 dps). This will be Amarr's answer to the long-range Rokh.
This new Apoc will give the Amarr much versatility with the ability to choose damage types, play EWar in fleet battles, and finally have more than 4 mid slots on a BS.
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smoogie
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:45:00 -
[35]
Edited by: smoogie on 31/07/2006 15:55:34
Edited by: smoogie on 31/07/2006 15:52:42
The Arbitrator is the only T1 cruiser that can play sniper at 120km with T1 equipment. Unlike the Vexor, the Arbitrator is a "longer-range" drone ship because of the extra midslot and no gun bonus.
A long-range droneboat EW Apoc would be a natural sucessor.
Originally by: JoeT
Bonus #2: 15% to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
no... 5% would be fair, just like its younger brother.
No, the Arbitrator gets a 5% to effectiveness bonus. The Arbitrator with good skills can still only tracking disrupt to about 100km (optimal 65-ish, falloff 35-ish) with T2 tracking disruptors. The 15% per level range bonus should allow the new Apoc to tracking disrupt at 150km+, but it will be less effective than the arbitrator at loser ranges.
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Originally by: Kazaam
Originally by: smoogie
20% to drone optimal range
I'd have said "drone control range"
You need the optimal bonus to get sentry drones out there. Fill highs with drone range control mods, toss omni tracking links in the mids. Fill the rest of your mids with tracking disruptors, and then fit a kickass armor tank in the lows.
This ship would have a decent amount of CPU but not many turret or missile slots as most of it's highs would be intended to be filled with drone range mods.
Exactly. For closer range encounters (<70km), one could use Garde Sentry drones along with some guns and torpedos. This is a very versatile ship with the 6/6/6 layout.
EVERYTHING about this new Apoc screams "medium-to-long" range, allowing T1 noobs to reach 160km+ like the Rokh, albeit low DPS, but also with some EW.
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gu o
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Posted - 2006.07.31 16:37:00 -
[36]
I really like my arbi a bigger version might not be ideal though. When I setup my arbi I hit with sentry drones at around 120km. This makes it a good aid in fleet battle (granted I can only use 3 heavy drones) But the reson its ok in fleet is noone fears this lil bug. a giant arse battleship would get high priority and go down in flames quickly... But that said a bigger version would have some great benefits also. TO sum up my personal feelings with the abaddon as a drone ship just like the arbi:
Good-
Larger drone bay=more drones of different types alway good
tracking distruptors are a big help in fleet battles. any time you can knock a long range sniper's range down by 3/4 its a plus.
Good looks yeah the abba looks cool imo 
The Bad-
Big target and higher prioty in fleet engagements
And well that about it other than the screams from gal pilots that their precious nos/domi is no longer good because of a sniping fleet backup ship
Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here)like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever... |
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