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Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:24:00 - [1] Why is caldari drawing the longest straw again? hell what kind of a ship is that, it's a monster... i mean wtf is it with the caldari thing? not nerfing the raven is 1 thing, but making the new BS this overpowered is crazy imho
Twilight Moon Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:26:00 - [2] Get close to it and its a large steaming pile of space poo. Surely with its range bonus, even with AM its going to have a hard time hitting anything vaguely close to it, its just not going to be able to drop its optimal low enough. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:31:00 - [3] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 31/07/2006 09:32:03 Originally by: Twilight Moon Get close to it and its a large steaming pile of space poo. Surely with its range bonus, even with AM its going to have a hard time hitting anything vaguely close to it, its just not going to be able to drop its optimal low enough. Your optimal range does not affect your hit chance. Your hit chance is dependant on your distance to the target, it's transversal velocity, and your tracking stat. If you're out of your optimal and in your falloff, you have less chance to hit (50% chance up to optimal+falloff, near-0% chance at optimal+falloff*2). Inside your optimal, you have 100% chance to hit, assuming you can track, before hit quality (which can produce a miss, also) is calculated. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:38:00 - [4] Originally by: Twilight Moon Get close to it and its a large steaming pile of space poo. Surely with its range bonus, even with AM its going to have a hard time hitting anything vaguely close to it, its just not going to be able to drop its optimal low enough. i sentence the man who ever wants to lower his optimal range to a mental ilness clinic... Rokh doesn't have a tracking penalty in other words it's all good and it only means he can hit further out with AM
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:47:00 - [5] It's still going to have a harder time hitting close up than the mega with its tracking bonus. The mega also have better dps and using t2 ammo can reach the max possible range of 250km. The Rokh is probably going to be a nice ship but in no way will it be so uber that some here seems to think. The only thing it will really add that currently is missing is the option to praticipate in 200km+ sniping even if you don't have t2 large guns yet. But it will do much less damage at that range compared to someone with t2. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twilight Moon Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 31/07/2006 09:49:42 Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 31/07/2006 09:35:24 Originally by: Twilight Moon Get close to it and its a large steaming pile of space poo. Surely with its range bonus, even with AM its going to have a hard time hitting anything vaguely close to it, its just not going to be able to drop its optimal low enough. Your optimal range does not affect your hit chance. Your hit chance is dependant on your distance to the target, it's transversal velocity, and your tracking stat. If you're out of your optimal and in your falloff, you have less chance to hit (50% chance up to optimal+falloff, near-0% chance at optimal+falloff2). Inside your optimal, you have 100% chance to hit, assuming you can track, and before hit quality (which can produce a miss, also) is calculated. But surely, if your optimal is say 30km, and your falloff is 9km, you're going to have a damn hard time hitting someone who is orbiting you at 10km. (Optimal - Falloff2 = 12km or under has 0% hit chance) Wait....are you saying Optimal isnt a static figure? Its simply a range out to a point that you have 100% chance to hit? I thought optimal was a static figure, and that if a target was within Optimal - Falloff*2 you would have zero chance to hit? am I wrong? ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 31/07/2006 09:49:42 Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 31/07/2006 09:35:24 Originally by: Twilight Moon Get close to it and its a large steaming pile of space poo. Surely with its range bonus, even with AM its going to have a hard time hitting anything vaguely close to it, its just not going to be able to drop its optimal low enough. Your optimal range does not affect your hit chance. Your hit chance is dependant on your distance to the target, it's transversal velocity, and your tracking stat. If you're out of your optimal and in your falloff, you have less chance to hit (50% chance up to optimal+falloff, near-0% chance at optimal+falloff2). Inside your optimal, you have 100% chance to hit, assuming you can track, and before hit quality (which can produce a miss, also) is calculated. But surely, if your optimal is say 30km, and your falloff is 9km, you're going to have a damn hard time hitting someone who is orbiting you at 10km. (Optimal - Falloff2 = 12km or under has 0% hit chance) Wait....are you saying Optimal isnt a static figure? Its simply a range out to a point that you have 100% chance to hit? I thought optimal was a static figure, and that if a target was within Optimal - Falloff*2 you would have zero chance to hit? am I wrong? yeah you're wrong
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Twilight Moon But surely, if your optimal is say 30km, and your falloff is 9km, you're going to have a damn hard time hitting someone who is orbiting you at 10km. (Optimal - Falloff*2 = 12km or under has 0% hit chance) ? In that case it will be your tracking giving you the issue, not your optimal range. Your optimal and your tracking are independant. If I have a gun with 50km optimal and 50km falloff, and poor tracking, and an inty gets within 10km of me, I'll struggle to hit it. Now let's say I fitted ammo that reduced my optimal (somehow) to 10km; I'll still hit the inty just as much or as little as before. The optimal range makes no difference to hit chance once your target is inside it. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Twilight Moon Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:59:00 - [9] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 31/07/2006 10:02:47 Edited by: Twilight Moon on 31/07/2006 10:02:37 Damnit, 8 months and I've only found this out. I was under the impression that Optimal was a fixed point in space, and that Falloff came into play both over and under Optimal. Well, thanks for pointing that out....you're probably just saved my Hpyerion from becoming a molten blob of metal. Yeah...so....I agree, Rokh = long straw. I'm actually somewhat tempted to train for it now. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 10:19:25 Originally by: Twilight Moon Yeah...so....I agree, Rokh = long straw. I'm actually somewhat tempted to train for it now. At least up until now, Caldari was not so much fun. Spamming missiles all day is far more boring than actually flying the ship, taking into account transversal and misses etc. Now that the caldari gets a turret ship, with 8 turrets and 7 medium slots (LOL), I will personally recommend every newbie in the game to go Caldari. Not to mention the tier 2 battlecruiser that looks to have 7 launchers and 6 medium slots... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Hoshi It's still going to have a harder time hitting close up than the mega with its tracking bonus. The mega also have better dps and using t2 ammo can reach the max possible range of 250km. The Rokh is probably going to be a nice ship but in no way will it be so uber that some here seems to think. The only thing it will really add that currently is missing is the option to praticipate in 200km+ sniping even if you don't have t2 large guns yet. But it will do much less damage at that range compared to someone with t2. There is a big difference between hitting at 250km in the mega and the rokh. The mega will be well into falloff doing pathetic dps while the rokh will still be in optimal if it fits 1 tracking computer/tracking enhancer. At max range, rokh will definitely outdamage every other ship in the game.
Denrace Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:34:00 - [12] Hmmm... I'll just end up fitting Blasters to it and 7 Jammers Den ________________________________________
Waut Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Denrace Hmmm... I'll just end up fitting Blasters to it and 7 Jammers Den Hmmm, how come I didn't think about that yet? In Soviet EVE, roids pop YOU <-- Future God Emperor of EvE
Ciphero	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:05:00 - [14] We did notice that the Rokh is the only one of the new battleships that has no DPS bonus, didn't we?
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:23:00 - [15] It's probably going to be very hard to fit and it does less damage on average than all the other races snipers. The plus side, slightly better range with a very small distance advantage enabling it to use better ammo. Perhaps you should wait and see how it performs before saying its over powered?
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:25:00 - [16] Originally by: welsh wizard It's probably going to be very hard to fit and it does less damage on average than all the other races snipers. The plus side, slightly better range with a very small distance advantage enabling it to use better ammo. Perhaps you should wait and see how it performs before saying its over powered? 8 425mm's with buffer in meds and 3 dmg mods 2 tracking mods in lows wtf
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: welsh wizard It's probably going to be very hard to fit and it does less damage on average than all the other races snipers. The plus side, slightly better range with a very small distance advantage enabling it to use better ammo. Perhaps you should wait and see how it performs before saying its over powered? 8 425mm's with buffer in meds and 3 dmg mods 2 tracking mods in lows wtf Maelstorm could do the same 8 1400mms with buffers in mids, 3 dmg mods and 3 tracking mods in lows. The ships arent out yet and there isnt much point to whine so much about them. If there are so much whinings about tier 3 battleships, CCP might just scrap introducing tier 3 battleships and that will make everyone happy. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:42:00 - [18] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 11:42:44 I seem to remember a certain Jenny Spitfire going all crazy when we discussed giving the Maelstrom 7 medium slots while the Rohk still had 6...coining the term "midslot specialists" for the Caldari. The only reason you are not whining now is because the Rohk looks to be superior to the Maelstrom. So while I agree we should all whine less, I think you would whine too if you werent happy with the Rohk. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
mishkof	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: welsh wizard It's probably going to be very hard to fit and it does less damage on average than all the other races snipers. The plus side, slightly better range with a very small distance advantage enabling it to use better ammo. Perhaps you should wait and see how it performs before saying its over powered? 8 425mm's with buffer in meds and 3 dmg mods 2 tracking mods in lows wtf Maelstorm could do the same 8 1400mms with buffers in mids, 3 dmg mods and 3 tracking mods in lows. The ships arent out yet and there isnt much point to whine so much about them. If there are so much whinings about tier 3 battleships, CCP might just scrap introducing tier 3 battleships and that will make everyone happy. I see this as personal opinions and recommendations. This is helpful to someone such as my self who has outgrown my mining character and my combat characters torp Raven. I am currently deciding on what turret weapons to train and I want to hear many different perspectives, since this is a major SP investment. I want to make sure I make the right choice that fits my play style. In other words I want to hear what people have to say. As long as they back up their answers with facts. So bring on the "whining" because I missed all the other threads on this subject and want to hear fresh opinions.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Deathbarrage 8 425mm's with buffer in meds and 3 dmg mods 2 tracking mods in lows wtf Maelstorm could do the same 8 1400mms with buffers in mids, 3 dmg mods and 3 tracking mods in lows. The ships arent out yet and there isnt much point to whine so much about them. If there are so much whinings about tier 3 battleships, CCP might just scrap introducing tier 3 battleships and that will make everyone happy. Maelstrom will need 4 tracking computers/enhancers for sniping and still won't have anywhere close to the optimal the rokh will have without any tracking mods. This results in a much better tank for the rokh and the increased optimal means higher dps at range. It's basically a ship that can only be countered by itself at range, which is a poor way of balancing things.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:51:00 - [21] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 11:53:02 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 11:42:44 I seem to remember a certain Jenny Spitfire going all crazy when we discussed giving the Maelstrom 7 medium slots while the Rohk still had 6...coining the term "midslot specialists" for the Caldari. The only reason you are not whining now is because the Rohk looks to be superior to the Maelstrom. So while I agree we should all whine less, I think you would whine too if you werent happy with the Rohk. Contrary to most people's belief, I wont whine much because it isnt me. If I am unhappy, I will just click cancel subscription or adapt and pick a different race. I like Caldari ships because they have variety and not really that superior in everything. Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar only have one flavour. Turrets and more turrets. Hard to balance ships without cannibalising others. May be I dont see everything in DPS and just adapt to whatever. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:52:00 - [22] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 11:53:55 Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Deathbarrage 8 425mm's with buffer in meds and 3 dmg mods 2 tracking mods in lows wtf Maelstorm could do the same 8 1400mms with buffers in mids, 3 dmg mods and 3 tracking mods in lows. The ships arent out yet and there isnt much point to whine so much about them. If there are so much whinings about tier 3 battleships, CCP might just scrap introducing tier 3 battleships and that will make everyone happy. Maelstrom will need 4 tracking computers/enhancers for sniping and still won't have anywhere close to the optimal the rokh will have without any tracking mods. This results in a much better tank for the rokh and the increased optimal means higher dps at range. It's basically a ship that can only be countered by itself at range, which is a poor way of balancing things. Can you prove it now? If you can pilot a Maelstorm at this moment and say it is scrap metal, I will eat every single word that I have said. Same for Rokh. If you can pilot a Rokh and show it is a pwnmobile, I will eat my words. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:53:00 - [23] The name is the ship is confusing btw. I keep typing both Rohk and Rokh... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:58:00 - [24] Edited by: Azerrad on 31/07/2006 11:58:46 Lousy forums...
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:58:00 - [25] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Can you prove it now? If you can pilot a Maelstorm at this moment and say it is scrap metal, I will eat every single word that I have said. Same for Rokh. If you can pilot a Rokh and show it is a pwnmobile, I will eat my words. Look at the dev blog bonuses for each ship and calculate the optimal ranges of the ships. The rest pretty much follows from that.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Contrary to most people's belief, I wont whine much because it isnt me. If I am unhappy, I will just click cancel subscription or adapt and pick a different race. I like Caldari ships because they have variety and not really that superior in everything. Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar only have one flavour. Turrets and more turrets. Hard to balance ships without cannibalising others. May be I dont see everything in DPS and just adapt to whatever. I kind of have to disagree with you that Caldari are jack of all trades and minmatar are one flavour. In fact I would say its exacly the other way around. But sure, you have the right to your opinion. :) Hard to balance non-caldari ships? Yes, when caldari always gets the best ship, it definently hurts balance. And about dps, well, if you knew anything about minmatar you would know that they usually have the lowest dps of them all. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:04:00 - [27] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 12:04:25 Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Can you prove it now? If you can pilot a Maelstorm at this moment and say it is scrap metal, I will eat every single word that I have said. Same for Rokh. If you can pilot a Rokh and show it is a pwnmobile, I will eat my words. Look at the dev blog bonuses for each ship and calculate the optimal ranges of the ships. The rest pretty much follows from that. Those are bonuses. Can you prove that you wont need RCU T2, CPU T2 to fit shields and 8 425MMs? We know absolutely nothing about all tier 3 battleships except their bonuses and this give us good facts to start whinings? What I see on forum is "if we get this number of slots, we can do this amount of DPS in solo" or "this ship will 0wnz0r when we use T2 ammos knowingly T2 ammos are broken". There isnt any reason to whine unless you can prove it. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:10:00 - [28] Edited by: Azerrad on 31/07/2006 12:11:34 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 12:04:25 Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Can you prove it now? If you can pilot a Maelstorm at this moment and say it is scrap metal, I will eat every single word that I have said. Same for Rokh. If you can pilot a Rokh and show it is a pwnmobile, I will eat my words. Look at the dev blog bonuses for each ship and calculate the optimal ranges of the ships. The rest pretty much follows from that. Those are bonuses. Can you prove that you wont need RCU T2, CPU T2 to fit shields and 8 425MMs? We know absolutely nothing about all tier 3 battleships except their bonuses and this give us good facts to start whinings? What I see on forum is "if we get this number of slots, we can do this amount of DPS in solo" or "this ship will 0wnz0r when we use T2 ammos knowingly T2 ammos are broken". There isnt any reason to whine unless you can prove it. No, but I can say that in the typical sniper config that Rokh will have more free slots to play with than any other BS given the 3-4 free built in tracking computers (edit: range portion only, no actual bonus to tracking). I think its a pretty safe assumption that with those extra free slots the Rokh will be able to fit a better tank than the Maelstrom, can't prove it though. DPS at range is also pretty much a given since the Maelstrom will be fighting well into falloff giving it a severe damage reduction which the Rokh will not suffer from.
Cartiff Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:11:00 - [29] until we know grid and cpu, this discussions kinda pointless. ----------------------------------- "Uggs386 > omfg i like little boys" Originally by: Milivikal DeWrar GoonSwarm: powered by static electricty from polysci and law nerds rubbing stubble in thought.
Traxman	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:01:00 - [30] Will we ever see a Tier2 Dread with rails for Caldarian with the same bonuses as Rokh )

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