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Kel Gunrunner
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 07:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was recently the victim of a market buy order scam that cost me 3 bil.
The guy had flooded the market with sell orders for an item at 300 mil a piece, he put a buy order up that looked like a typo 700,000,000 rather than 70,000,000. so I figured Id try buying one of these and sell it. then i realised the buy order was for 10 so I couldent sell it. At this point I realised I had been scammed and thought... wouldent it be fun to aquire 10 of these to fill his order so he has to pay out... so I did I spent 3 billion on it. and when I clicked it the order dissapeared and instead it had put the 10 items up on a sell order for 700,000,000 each.   
SCAMMED BIGTIME.
I didnt even know there was a skill that allowed you to create false buy orders, but after some reserch I understand the idea behind the skill it just needs a fix to stop people doing this. 
The Solution: Highlight buy orders in red if the player they belong to does not have the capital to pay out. add a tooltip to explain why it is red. This can be avoided so easily.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6582
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Posted - 2014.09.11 08:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's one of the oldest and well known scams in EVE. It's complained about, but it's not much of an issue, scamming is allowed in this game and good appropriate solutions aren't so simple to implement. The real problem you should be worried about is why did you invest billions on a product when you lack rudimentary knowledge of the market and didn't even know the correct price of the product you're trading in? I know it's not what you want to hear, but you stumbled on the most obvious scam possible and no warning bells went off in your head. If you don't address the issue, you'll get scammed again even if margin trading scams gets removed. Well at least you get to keep your goods, that are worth 3 bil. All you need to do now is find another player who shares that belief and you can sell them your fine products at a generous 5% discount. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2618
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 08:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP cannot patch greed and stupidity out of the game. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13133
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 08:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
The skill isnt for the scam, the scam is just a clever use of the game tools. It is up to you to do your homework on something that looks too good to be true. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Samillian
Angry Mustellid Overload Everything
597
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 09:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
You gambled, you lost.
Learn from your error and move on. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |

Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
156
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 09:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
It seems hard to believe you could have 3bn and not have come across this. Travelling at the speed of love. |

Sigras
Conglomo
857
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 10:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kel Gunrunner wrote:The Solution: Highlight buy orders in red if the player they belong to does not have the capital to pay out. add a tooltip to explain why it is red. This can be avoided so easily. Do you understand what would actually be involved for a database back end programmer in order to implement your "solution"? because your idea suggests that you dont.
Let's say that the best case scenario is that CCP is willing to cache the "minimum purchasable amount" for each order in their database (which would actually make their orders database quite a bit larger as it would need to store another double)
Now lets make up a heavy trader, he has 150 buy order and 100 sell orders up at any given time and trading is his main profession. every time that his wallet updates the database has to roll through all of his buy orders and make sure that for each of them the minimum purchasable amounts are below the amount that is in his wallet.
He lives in Jita, and people are constantly buying and selling from him, which means that his wallet changes every minute or two. Now the database has to do 150 compares every minute. Still not that bad for a modern computer
now multiply that times the 10,000 people who trade in jita daily and if you think the market in jita is laggy now, just you wait.
A much better solution would be to have the option to "audit buy order" which would cost you 1,000,000 ISK, if you were wrong about the order and the person did actually have the cash to fulfill it, that 1,000,000 would be gone, but if not, the order would be canceled, their escrow seized and you would receive your ISK back
Or better yet, you could listen to the old adage that if it seems too good to be true, it is. :P |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
154
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 13:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
I have to wanna say the devs had a thread about this going on at one time, not sure if anything ever came out of it. They said something along the lines that they didn't like how the UI wasn't giving players any information about the possibility of this happening, unlike in contract scams where the victims are just ppl who misread / acted to quickly, etc
One of the concerns about marking orders using the margin trading skill was that marking them could negatively impact the ppl who use the skill legitimately. |

Jur Tissant
Unreal Darkness
225
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 13:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Of course this scam is easy to spot for an experienced player but new players might reasonably expect the UI not to lie to them. Other scams rely on misdirection, so a keen eye can spot the scam if the player can temper their greed. Again, my concern here is mainly for newer players, as much as we like to say HTFU and forget about it, the game interface itself has lied to them and cost them the $20 PLEX they bought to jump-start their career.
Quote:One of the concerns about marking orders using the margin trading skill was that marking them could negatively impact the ppl who use the skill legitimately.
A small crowd in my experience, as I have never encountered a legit buy order which couldn't be fulfilled. Besides, does it matter if the the player is a legit trader? If a buy order can't be fulfilled, it can't be fulfilled, and shouldn't the seller have a right to know that? |

NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
928
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 13:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
I've always wondered, aside from this scam, what is the point of the min required for sale? I mean that seems the easiest fix for the scam is to get rid of that One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters |

Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
507
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 13:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Scams are part of life in EVE.
However, this particular scam is one that's aided and abetted by the UI itself. It uses game mechanics that require a fair bit of digging to understand and there's no indication it's even possible unless you already know about it. This makes it a "new player trap" and it should thus be quashed. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 13:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wild idea: If Margin Trade was skilled and a player creates market orders, the server checks upon money transfer to other divisions/other characters if enough money remains in the division/wallet to cover the margin. If not, the player receives a notification to confirm the money transfer and as a result cancel the affected market order(s).
Also, why is this a separate topic and not in this thread? |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
323
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 14:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters
Dropping a column in a big table is a b*****d.
And you have to pray you dont (and never had) have lazy developers who select * and rely on an order existing. Or order by 1/2/3/n in the code.
A drop isnt likely 
|

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6078
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 14:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Remember kids...
When you price-check an item, always cross-check that price before you buy it.
If something appears too good to be true, it probably is.
Selling stuff to buy orders just makes people smarter than you richer. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 14:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
The topic of this thread and the OP's post are based on the assumption that there is a "problem" that needs to be "fixed". I find this assumption to be flawed. |

Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
222
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 14:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
TL;DR version: Greedy person taught a lesson by smarter person. Wants to nerf smarter person. |

NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
928
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
afkalt wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters Dropping a column in a big table is a b*****d. And you have to pray you dont (and never had) have lazy developers who select * and rely on an order existing. Or order by 1/2/3/n in the code. A drop isnt likely  Why is it no one codes in a sane and logical manner like all these books I am learning from advise? (Please ignore my effective and ongoing decision to write a browser in Java, it works and the code will look pretty when I am done, honest) Why do we need to call it Haskel and now have n+1 coding methods?
Also why are there so many coding methods? Arent most of them wrappered languages that end up outputting to the assembly code the same? |

Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
88
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
It's your own fault for not reading the price you were paying correctly... |

Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
403
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
1.) Hahaha, many have been there.
2.) Dark Green color for minimum buy order bigger then 1 is something I could live with. It is usually outside the window and a bit of a help. You are still to risk the investment, win or lose, which is also fine.
Comfort yes, scam fix - not really sure. Join the BIG Lottery (see Bio ingame), oldest and only non-profit Lottery in EVE, every second Monday. Wire ISK to BIG GAMES for tickets ! Join the Channel, have fun, being a lucky winner is optional ,)
|

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
323
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:It's your own fault for not reading the price you were paying correctly...
I don't think you know how this scam works. |

evepal
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you put a buy order up for more than the lowest selling order and have capital to back that buy order, it'll automatically buy up all the sell orders equal or less than your price - that match the quantity and range requirements.
If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.
So yeah, this is a pretty easy scam to avoid. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
323
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
evepal wrote:If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.
What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it?
EVE doesnt do overdrafts.
Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this. |

Major Trant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
922
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 16:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:...Well at least you get to keep your goods, that are worth 3 bil. All you need to do now is find another player who shares that belief and you can sell them your fine products at a generous 5% discount. These goods are not worth 3B, the scammer would have bought out the market on a rare items first, then reposted the goods on Sell Orders for a greatly inflated price, typically 10 times the price.
At the same time he posts a 'mistaken' Buy order with the price even more inflated but fixed to fail due to insufficient funds using the Margin Trading skill and an empty wallet. The scammers alt advertises the Buy order in local saying something like "Looks at this noob Market error, if only I had the cash to fulfill it." The Victim sees that he can buy the goods and immediately sell them to the Buy Order for a massive profit, without checking what the true cost of the goods are. He buys them, then gets stuck with them when the sell attempt fails and then he finds that the goods are only worth a fraction of the price he paid.
NEONOVUS wrote:I've always wondered, aside from this scam, what is the point of the min required for sale? I mean that seems the easiest fix for the scam is to get rid of that One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters The purpose of the minimum buy quantity is to allow a buyer to minimise the number of stations he needs to visit when he puts up a multi station buy order. Lets say someone is putting up a Region wide buy order for 10,000 Veldspar. He doesn't care where he goes to collect it when the buy order is fulfilled, but he only wants to make one trip to fetch it. So he wants it all in one place. Not 1-50 units in each of 300 different stations. CTRL-Q - Minmatar FW - Low Sec PvP - Euro TZ - New Player Friendly Contact: Major Trant In game channel: FeO Public Recruitment thread: CTRL-Q |

NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 16:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kel Gunrunner wrote:
I didnt even know there was a skill that allowed you to create false buy orders
This is the essence of why the scam works. It preys on a players lack of knowledge 0f a particular skill book when the game leads you to believe you can't put up a buy order without the isk.
The derpy pro-scammer kids will ironically come in here and try to say you were stupid and should have known better.
EVE is plagued with these awful and poorly thought out mechanics that some players exploit against others, and that never get fixed until there is mass complaining.
Did you know you can fly into other players missions and blow up their required mission objectives items just to **** them them? Nothing you can do about it either. You just have to eat a massive standing hit for failing the mission. Seems fair, right?
The real reason CCP doesn't police scamming is because they figure it would cost them too much to police it. That harsh and dangerous world is a line of crap they feed you to make up for their poor choices and lazyness. It's just a ******, broken game that doesn't seem to be improving at near the rate I thought it would when I started.
CCP Veritas has recently accepted this truth. I feel less inclined to be a part of EVE too after CCP Rise completely **** all over the versatility for the SP-intensive Rattlesnake, a ship considered to be UP, for no good reason whatsoever. |

Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 16:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting wrote: I feel less inclined to be a part of EVE too after CCP Rise completely **** all over the versatility for the SP-intensive Rattlesnake, a ship considered to be UP, for no good reason whatsoever. Stop trying to derail other threads with your usual whining. |

Beta Maoye
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 16:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks for sharing your story. Last year a lengthy discussion thread in Features & Ideas section was dedicated to your issue. What is said has been said before. The issue remains unchanged. I think CCP will not do anything about it. Learn from your mistakes and move on. |

Mag's
the united
17836
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kel Gunrunner wrote:I was recently the victim of a market buy order scam that cost me 3 bil. The guy had flooded the market with sell orders for an item at 300 mil a piece, he put a buy order up that looked like a typo 700,000,000 rather than 70,000,000. so I figured Id try buying one of these and sell it. then i realised the buy order was for 10 so I couldent sell it. At this point I realised I had been scammed and thought... wouldent it be fun to aquire 10 of these to fill his order so he has to pay out... so I did I spent 3 billion on it. and when I clicked it the order dissapeared and instead it had put the 10 items up on a sell order for 700,000,000 each.    So you thought you were going to make lots of quick ISK and screw over another pilot?
Kel Gunrunner wrote:SCAMMED BIGTIME. I didnt even know there was a skill that allowed you to create false buy orders, but after some reserch I understand the idea behind the skill it just needs a fix to stop people doing this.  What you did was market PvP. But it just so happens you made a massive error of judgement. Due in part to your lack of gathering information on your investment before taking the plunge.
Kel Gunrunner wrote:The Solution: Highlight buy orders in red if the player they belong to does not have the capital to pay out. add a tooltip to explain why it is red. This can be avoided so easily.
The solution is to know what you are doing, before sinking 3 billion into an item/items worth far less. It just so happens the market has tools available to do just that. But greed and the thought of screwing over another pilot, got the better of you.
That said, I would however agree with a tooltip that states. "No order is guaranteed. Buyer beware."
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

evepal
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
afkalt wrote:evepal wrote:If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price. What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it? EVE doesnt do overdrafts. Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this.
Your reading comprehension suggests that you should go ahead and do it. Those two statements weren't separate, they were in conjunction with one another.
In your case, it's quite simple: there'd be a buy order that has a listing price higher than the lowest sell order price. Therefore, that's how you know it doesn't have capital.
|

Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
733
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
It's possible to scam the scammer but you need to have the item in volume he is using to scam.
You need to run sale orders assuming his margin escrow is still more than the true price.
With 'typo' scams like 700 mill, a 25% escrow is 175 mill. If you put the sale for that the sale will happen and clear his escrow. A true 70 mill item just sold for 175 mill so you won.
Most traders know that if you see a buy order with a minimum buy order of more than 1 item? It's a scam. The only victims in these trades are new to Trading players and that's unfortunate. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
324
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 19:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
evepal wrote:afkalt wrote:evepal wrote:If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price. What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it? EVE doesnt do overdrafts. Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this. Your reading comprehension suggests that you should go ahead and do it. Those two statements weren't separate, they were in conjunction with one another. In your case, it's quite simple: there'd be a buy order that has a listing price higher than the lowest sell order price. Therefore, that's how you know it doesn't have capital.
Yes, however, this is exactly why these are invariably rare items with a minimum quantity attached per purchase. |
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