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Corvus Crax	Posted - 2006.08.02 18:56:00 - [31] Originally by: Sarmaul Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank... I keep hearing this, and I am really wondering what people mean. The Raven has a really good tank, with a crap capacitor, and 6 medslots. It's never been any different. It's like the maelstrome won't work at all if it doesn't have 7 medslots when you listen to you people. Sure. You could always use a few more medslots and it would be nice and all, but the arguments I've seen sofar doesn't really hold. There are two lines of thought here. One is the shortranged type. "When you shoot people up close and personal you need a webber and scrambler and then you're out of medslots for the tank" Well. It's supposed to be a slow artie-platform. Tux has already defined the role so on to the next. "When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;) All that said, I agree that the shieldboost-bonus isn't really worth the hassle. Make it a trackingbonus to make this ship a really nice artieboat and in a way regain one of those medslots from the trackingcomps ;)
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 18:56:00 - [32] Originally by: Sarmaul Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank... Well lets compare the DPS to the Rokh shall we or the Raven? Since that's all that matters. And while you're at it compare it's DPS to the Geddon and 'Tron at long range, then proceed to compare tanking options at those ranges and finally compare cap usage. Quote: not enough slots to run the tank. 6 slot sheild tank + boost bonus not enough? Or is it just not enough if you also want all the goodies like MWD/AB and tracking comps to? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 18:59:00 - [33] Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 19:00:03 Sensor Boosters? Tracking Computers? A ship that can't lock past 100km isn't very useful in a fleet A ship that can't shoot past 120km isn't very useful in a fleet If I turned up to a fleet and said "hey guys, I can't lock far or shoot far but I can run a fairly good active tank" I would be laughed at and told to fit some damn sensor boosters and tracking modules. And stop doing raw dps comparisons turret ships to missile ships - there are a hell of a lot of factors that bias the results on both sides. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Corvus Crax "When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;) Remind me again what comprimises the Rokh makes please? Good tank? Check (and it's a passive hitpoint tank which is perfect for fleets) +200km range? Check Sensor boosters? Check Damage modules? Check TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Corvus Crax "When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;) Remind me again what comprimises the Rokh makes please? Good tank? Check (and it's a passive hitpoint tank which is perfect for fleets) +200km range? Check Sensor boosters? Check Damage modules? Check It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'... and I know comparing missiles and turrets is stupid, but so is comparing the Maelstrom to the Rokh without just using the Rokhs strenghts to bring forward some weaknesses... bah, I'm off to BBQ an innocent baby cow for dinner - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 19:11:56 Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 19:10:06 Originally by: Corvus Crax Originally by: Sarmaul Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank... I keep hearing this, and I am really wondering what people mean. The Raven has a really good tank, with a crap capacitor, and 6 medslots. It's never been any different. It's like the maelstrome won't work at all if it doesn't have 7 medslots when you listen to you people. Sure. You could always use a few more medslots and it would be nice and all, but the arguments I've seen sofar doesn't really hold. The reason the raven tanks awesomely is becuase it only needs one tackling mod and no speed boost to be that effective. BS vs BS the raven just needs a point to hold the other guy down then pummels him with torps till he dies. The challenge is to either a) ***** the ravens tank which means going towards him in a closerange monster or b) escape scramble range and flee. Now thats fine and dandy with a missile boat, because you don't have to consider tracking or optimal. If you can lock it, you can pretty much hit it, and if its in the same ship class, hit it for full damage. Turret ships can't do that. Arty cannot hit anything within scramble range other than a POS or someone too stupid to move. Its just how tracking screws you over. So you add a web to slow them down, and an AB to try and get your speed up so you can hopefully cut transversal. Then you realise the ravens tank only runs so awesomely becuase its cap injected, and almsot certainly has a couple of heavy nos on its target. Now as we can't mount nos, becuase that makes the already slender damage bonus over the tempest null and void, and using a cap booster will cut you down to 3 mids to tank with ... we be screwed. Edit - Thats three mids if it has seven to begin with btw. If you go for a ravenesque tank with cap injection, AB, web and scram you are left two mids to tank with. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Dixon It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'... 9% advantage to the megaT with BS5, 5% with BS4... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:34:00 - [38] Positive: 1) he told us the intended role of the maelstrom, while no surprise, now we know for sure; shield tanked artillery boat 2) he recognizes that an active shield tank for an artilleryboat is pretty useless 3) they are still looking for a useful bonus for hyperion Negative: 1) we are soo stuck with those 6 mids (well i have still hope tough, if we can argument well enough) 2) if rokh gets more mids than mael then expect whines about it for the next few years 3) assault missiles , i hope they dont just balance the fittings need for caldari ships, a few minni ships will suffer if assault missiles have higher pg need than heavy misile launcher (specifically the huginn) Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:41:00 - [39] I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:43:00 - [40] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47 Originally by: Pesadel0 I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship. I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Eximius Josari Shadow Reavers	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:43:00 - [41] 8/6/6 RoF and Tracking bonus. Hmm...I could handle that. Victory is the weakness of the enemy.
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47 Originally by: Pesadel0 I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship. I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. Hail Jim! This man speaks the truth <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47 Originally by: Pesadel0 I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship. I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. Now there's a thought, just don't fly it if you don't like it. I know my Caldari BS 5 isn't enough to get me to fly that stupid Rokh thing you ppl seem to like... abaddon ftw! - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Dixon It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'... fleets are more about focussed fire and get out before you get blown'd to pieces than to active tanking. so consider Maelstorm's shield boosting inefective for fleetbattles and the passive tanking of the Rohk perfect. Damage? Fleets are focussed fire. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Doc Brown Gallente Tyrell Corp Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:54:00 - [45] IMHO, what the blog says is that CCP thought they had it down, but after listening to us they re-thought some of the bonuses. If they changed their minds once, they will likely do it again. I like the new Hype bonus, but I why not toss in a sig radius reduction? This way it'll get a help when using MWD and normally. _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.08.02 19:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Eximius Josari 8/6/6 RoF and Tracking bonus. Hmm...I could handle that. Hell even that seems better than the shield tanking bonus ;) Quote: I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. ugh But she seems so sexy ;( ,she screams fast and furious.
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.02 20:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Dixon Now there's a thought, just don't fly it if you don't like it. I know my Caldari BS 5 isn't enough to get me to fly that stupid Rokh thing you ppl seem to like... abaddon ftw! Theres a big differance between a ship thats cliquey (blasterthrons, scorpians etc) and a ship thats just bad. In fact, in this case the differanceisn't so much big as BIG. In fact, its so large that one persons imagination isn't enough to hold just how large a differance there is in this case. Imagine if your shiney new eight turret fleet ship of doom got a bonus light missiles or something similarly stupid (i was going to put mining laser yield or smartbomb cap use but then decided theres actually a way you could use them ). Something that make no differance what so ever to its role. Role is crucial, because currently all you can do with it to play up to both its bonuses is mission running. If its meant to be an uber-tanking artillery boat, then it needs a 7.5% tracking bonus and seven meds. That way it doesn't jsut function as a fleet only ship, and could potentially be used with quake to do some nasty damage while the enemy fail to kill it. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Johnny Bravo	Posted - 2006.08.02 20:35:00 - [48] Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 02/08/2006 20:37:54 Ok, i can live with useless SB bonus and 6 mids - but ONLY if Maelstrom get a proper arty bonus. DAMAGE bonus, not RoF. And even that change is very probably not enouth to make Mael better than Tempest as arty platform. Now its just inferior to Tempest even in designed fleet arty role. And even more inferior in small-scale fleet arty role where 2 addidtional high slots, lower sig radius and better handling & speed play important role. It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.02 21:01:00 - [49] Tracking bonus isn't really good imo. Sure it would be nice... but imo thats going to tread thin on the megathron's stat. Imo... If it stays 8/6/6 it needs to loose the shield boost bonus and get 10% shield HP per level. I would like a damage bonus instead of RoF bonus but I can live with it if they give it a passive shield boost so DoT becomes useful on this ship. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 21:06:00 - [50] Its so simple really. Make the ship 8/5/7, drop the shield tanking bonus and give it armor resists instead. It would allow for damage mods, plates and EANM in the lows, sensor boosters and tracking computers in the meds. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Merv Tring GeoTech	Posted - 2006.08.02 21:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Johnny Bravo It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol. TomB: "Hey Tux, no one's using that new Minny battleship. Apparently it's crap." Tux: "Nerf Tempest until it's worse."
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:08:00 - [52] give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy. Slapping shield extenders on this thing will probably give it the sig of jupiter... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Auron Shadowbane give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy. Slapping shield extenders on this thing will probably give it the sig of jupiter... Not really. -____- ---------------- Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:18:00 - [55] Anyone have the sig radius of jupiter to hand <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Merv Tring Originally by: Johnny Bravo It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol. TomB: "Hey Tux, no one's using that new Minny battleship. Apparently it's crap." Tux: "Nerf Tempest until it's worse." AHAHAHA Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:24:00 - [57] 6 mids for the mael is not enought even if is going to be an arty platform the problem here is that you have still to assign mods both in mid (sensor boosters) and lows (dmg mods), so with a split config you can't really maximize your tank (as other new BSs seem to be able to do) we have also to consider that 1400mm are the turrets with worst tracking so traking comps (mids) are more suited for these ships... here a comparsion between various fleet ships at 100 and 200 transversal long range 100 long range 200 note that with 200 transversal the tempest and the mael do basically the same damage (so even alpha) with the tempest only using 6 guns the 2 ships will have a similar fitting but the pest using a 3 slot armor tank and 3 mids for comps the mael using a 4 slot shield tank. we have also to remember that plates gives more hps than shield boosters, so atm the difference probably is not a huge one and tempest will have better sign and speed. also the rokh performs very well here, as you can see every ship is using 6 slots for mods while the rokh with only 4 do same dps as a mael, outrange and outtank it with a 5 tank slots + inbuilt res. (only real con is the alpha) the abbandon simply looks scary with 4-5 lows to armor tank + res... but we have to see what it will be able to really fit back to the mael i think that atm is probably a bit too similar to a pest for fleet, they do basically the same damage with minor differences... if really mael is supposed to be an arty/shield tank platform then both its bonuses/slot allocation should reflect that... shield boost is quite useless (as even tux said) and imo a 5% dmg instead of rof is not out of place as the ship will be the one with worst tracking.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:28:00 - [58] The Maelstrom isn't a bad ship (it outclasses the Pest for fleet work). The issue is that it completely fails in the role CCP plan for it to fill (shield tanked artillery boat) as you still need sensor boosters, gyrostabs and tracking computers to get a half-good fleet setup out of it. It will replace my Tempest for fleet engagements, but the fitting will be pretty much copy & paste. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:37:00 - [59] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 22:40:46 Originally by: Ath Amon 6 mids for the mael is not enought even if is going to be an arty platform the problem here is that you have still to assign mods both in mid (sensor boosters) and lows (dmg mods), so with a split config you can't really maximize your tank (as other new BSs seem to be able to do) we have also to consider that 1400mm are the turrets with worst tracking so traking comps (mids) are more suited for these ships... here a comparsion between various fleet ships at 100 and 200 transversal long range 100 long range 200 note that with 200 transversal the tempest and the mael do basically the same damage (so even alpha) with the tempest only using 6 guns the 2 ships will have a similar fitting but the pest using a 3 slot armor tank and 3 mids for comps the mael using a 4 slot shield tank. we have also to remember that plates gives more hps than shield boosters, so atm the difference probably is not a huge one and tempest will have better sign and speed. also the rokh performs very well here, as you can see every ship is using 6 slots for mods while the rokh with only 4 do same dps as a mael, outrange and outtank it with a 5 tank slots + inbuilt res. (only real con is the alpha) the abbandon simply looks scary with 4-5 lows to armor tank + res... but we have to see what it will be able to really fit back to the mael i think that atm is probably a bit too similar to a pest for fleet, they do basically the same damage with minor differences... if really mael is supposed to be an arty/shield tank platform then both its bonuses/slot allocation should reflect that... shield boost is quite useless (as even tux said) and imo a 5% dmg instead of rof is not out of place as the ship will be the one with worst tracking. Looks to me that specially the Abaddon will be really good for sniping. I dont think its cap will last long, but for gate sniping, i think it will be the best ship in the game. And even megathron looks better than the Maelstrom in this chart, with Rohk at the bottom when it comes to dps. But i guess alpha is more important than dps in fleets. Give the Maelstrom a DMG bonus ffs... it would give it a purpose. Ill bring it out to snipe gates. Its at least something. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:51:00 - [60] I said fleet work, which consists of loading up with sensor boosters, tracking computers, gyrostabs, artillery and hoping to you have enough grid for a single armour rep. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -



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