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Jim McGregor
Caldari
   |
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:04:00 -
[1]
Ok, after reading the latest tuxford blog, I think Maelstrom is basicly doomed to fail. Nuff said, really.
Hyperion with a mass reduction bonus will enable it to be really fast, specially fitted with those new internal stabilizers that decrease mass even more. And with that kind of damage up close, well, lets just say Im not taking my minmatar skills to battleship level until we have a proper battleship.
I have no idea why he doesnt say one word about the Rohk. Guess he feels its fine.
Add your comments please, always nice to see what people think.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:18:00 -
[2]
I'm still dubious over how the Hyperion's bonus is useful in any practical sense. Give me a ship that does decent damage and a lot of spare lows and I'm just going to tank it to high heaven.
I can't think of any situations where I'd rather be zipping around (which, quite frankly, the Megathron does well enough at the expense of a lot of cap) than properly tanked. I'd rather get the warp point right in the first place if I'm that far away. An oversized Vagabond? I'd rather have a Vagabond, I can't see this thing's practicality coming close to it. 
Agreed on the Maelstrom. I can see even fewer reasons to fly that thing...
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Martyr 01
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:18:00 -
[3]
"Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you."
That made me want to cry.
Even if you consider it as solely an artillery boat how exactly does less than 7 slots make a viable long range + tank setup when you're using weps that need at least 1 but preferably 2 tracking comps to be effective and 1 to 3 sensor boosters to lock anything?
So imo even when forgetting about autos it still needs 7 mids to be effective, or it just becomes a confused tempest.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:19:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/08/2006 17:21:23
about the maelstorm:
instead a shield boosting bonus, add a shield HP ammount bonus?
let's say 10% per level?
Switching the RoF bonus for a straight damage bonus is interesting, but as Sarmaul (?) pointed out, 7000 alpha dmg with quake seems a bit unbalanced.
about the hyperion, I wonder how unbalanced it would be to have a RoF + dmg bonus? Hllaxiu posted a graph in the hyperion discussion thread, and near 1600hp in DOT is a pretty impressive. The graph also shows that even with a RoF bonus the ship gets oudamaged by everything at 15km and up.
Hllaxiu's numbers might not be correct however.
-------
 Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:21:00 -
[5]
Why is the Maelstrom doomed? Did you put some bad voodoo on it?
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Kyguard
LFC
3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:23:00 -
[6]
All I gathered is that Tux wants amarr to fail! We even promised him to stop using slaves to pedal our ships to warp, but he refused
===
God is on the side with the best arti |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:23:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 17:23:03
I dunno why he bothered talking about the mael since he jsut confirmed that it'll have too few mids to make it useable.
A long range ship that will use most of its slots to extend range further but still gets a shield boost amount bonus rather than anything else. Even like a lock range bonus or sensor strength bonus would be more practical.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:24:00 -
[8]
My thoughts:
1) If the Maelstrom only needs 6 mids to be effective then so does the Rokh as they do exactly the same thing (except of course, the Rokh will no doubt get larger shields to begin and it's resistance bonus will fit perfectly for fleets)
2) With the Maelstrom replacing the Tempest for fleet and the Hyperion being able to dish out **** loads of DPS and move faster than the Tempest, we have just made 1 battleship redundant.
3) Same goes the Megathron really - Rokh will out-class it for fleet, Hyperion for close-range.
4) Gank battlecruisers = good. Thank you tux! Just don't give the Minmatar one an optimal range bonus.
5) I'm so glad I'm nearly fulled skilled for the phoon now that the pest is going to be made useless (especially with an ecm + nos nerf).
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Soraya Silvermoon
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:31:00 -
[9]
we need 7 mids!!!
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Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:36:00 -
[10]
and yes, maelstorm needs 7 mids
-------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Merv Tring
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:36:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Merv Tring on 02/08/2006 17:37:44
Summary of the Mael part: "I know the shield boosting bonus is crap. It was crap on the Moa and we changed it. We hate Minmatar though so you get the crap bonus. Huhu. Also I have no idea how to fit long range ships."
EDIT: And what was that about Assault missiles needing more grid but less CPU? Are they changing the assault launchers (removing a decently effective anti-frig weapon from cruisers) or are they adding a whole new launcher?
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 17:46:00 -
[12]
could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.
8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II
no good? need more? Why?
and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
FFGR
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sarmaul
My thoughts:
1) If the Maelstrom only needs 6 mids to be effective then so does the Rokh as they do exactly the same thing (except of course, the Rokh will no doubt get larger shields to begin and it's resistance bonus will fit perfectly for fleets)
2) With the Maelstrom replacing the Tempest for fleet and the Hyperion being able to dish out **** loads of DPS and move faster than the Tempest, we have just made 1 battleship redundant.
3) Same goes the Megathron really - Rokh will out-class it for fleet, Hyperion for close-range.
4) Gank battlecruisers = good. Thank you tux! Just don't give the Minmatar one an optimal range bonus.
5) I'm so glad I'm nearly fulled skilled for the phoon now that the pest is going to be made useless (especially with an ecm + nos nerf).
1) I quite like the idea of Maelstorm having 7 mids and the Rokh having 6.
4) It had been already said tons of times by a number of people that they will be more geared towards ganking, with less tanking capabilities. It would be kind of sad having the same flavour of ships in the same class, just one beeing better than the other
5) The usual Minnie ship ... 1m sp to fly it, 100m sp to fly it the way it must be flown 
_____________________________
siggys v. 0.5 |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 18:09:38
Originally by: Dixon
could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.
8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II
no good? need more? Why?
and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast
And fitting 8x 1400II on a matari ship isn't going to need fitting mods ?
You can't effectively fit a close range set-up on the mael becuase its just not suited for it, so you basically need to use 1400's. Then remember the tracking sucks HARD so using it outside of a sleet is pointless. Inside of a fleet, fitting an active tank is pointless because you either get instapopped or don't get shot, plus lag causes problems.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Dixon
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 18:09:38
Originally by: Dixon
could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.
8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II
no good? need more? Why?
and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast
And fitting 8x 1400II on a matari ship isn't going to need fitting mods ?
You can't effectively fit a close range set-up on the mael becuase its just not suited for it, so you basically need to use 1400's. Then remember the tracking sucks HARD so using it outside of a sleet is pointless. Inside of a fleet, fitting an active tank is pointless because you either get instapopped or don't get shot, plus lag causes problems.
Well if you don't need an active tank then you can slap a few tracking computers in the medslots and use the free lows for fitting mods. But if the fittings from the outdated t3 are anything to go by (and I'm not saying they are) the Mael will have no problems fitting 1400's.
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:23:00 -
[16]
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 -
[17]
A 3 slot active tank in pretty much any situation is pretty pointless tbh ...
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Merv Tring
GeoTech
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?
I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Wat0721
GalacTECH Unlimited
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?
I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...
Here's one.
</OT>
---
ECM Fix |
Dixon
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.
oh dear god...
Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.
So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?
I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...
Shield extenders and invuls or crap-loads of plates. In a fleet fight you need to be able to absorb a lot of damage in a very short space of time, which makes hitpoint/passive tanks actually viable as opposed to active tanks which are all about tanking a steady stream of damage. If the Rokh gets 7 mids, it will be able to run 2 large extenders, 2 invuls and get another 25% shield resists from the ship bonus. It won't need a single tracking module as it can reach over 200km just with Caldari BS 5 and Spike ammo.
The Maelstrom on the other hand will still be needing sensor boosters, tracking computers and damage mods (and more than likely a fitting mod). For a ship that is supposedly designed as a tanked artillery platform it fails in almost every single way.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Serapis Aote
TBC
Novus Ordos Seclorum
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
Because if they are designing the thing for fleet engagements then the boost bonus is useless...
So to take full advantage of the bonus for small medium gangs you need more then 3 slots for a proper tank given all the other stuff that is essential that goes into mids.
after your tank you are left with 2 slots. 1 for an ab and and 1 for something else. That is not enough. 1 more slot makes it just right.
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Merv Tring
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dixon
oh dear god...
Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.
So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
I admit I did not communicate my point, that being that neither ship needs 7 mids. However, the Mael is forced to use a shield tank unless we want to waste a bonus, and if we're going to be forced to use 4 slots for a decent tank we'd very much like a couple to play with.
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Chode Rizoum
Minmatar
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:38:00 -
[25]
and me who was dreaming about a AC ship that could tank 
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Heartbreak Harriet
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:41:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Heartbreak Harriet on 02/08/2006 18:42:53
Edited by: Heartbreak Harriet on 02/08/2006 18:42:16
Sounds like the Maelstrom probably isn't getting another mid. Gonna be a shame to see such a sexy-looking ship go to waste. I honestly don't get the point of an active shield tanking artillery boat; it's kind of like giving an AC/missile BS that only has four turrets a bonus to optimal range. Sure, you can use both bonuses, but it's not the best way to apply the ship because of it's design. Come to think of it, that analogy is strangely familiar...
The Maelstrom isn't also going to have an unsually strong structural integrity for a Minmatar ship, is it?
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EL TITAN
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.
oh dear god...
Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.
So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
tracking computers?
_________________________________________________
<3 hi |
Dixon
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
oh dear god...
Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.
So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
I admit I did not communicate my point, that being that neither ship needs 7 mids. However, the Mael is forced to use a shield tank unless we want to waste a bonus, and if we're going to be forced to use 4 slots for a decent tank we'd very much like a couple to play with.
Believe me when I say that I feel you incoming pain, I've been flying a raven for a looong while now and I know how annoying it is to not have spare meds (and I also specced in amarr, so no free meds for me). But from what I've heard already from you ppl the Mael will need free meds to be of any use in medium-gangs, what does that make the raven?
The sheild tank that this bonus makes possible is going to be damn near unbreakable while cap lasts, and while I realize that guns (projectiles especially) need some form of med support like tracking computers or at least a web. But I still feel like Tux is doing the right thing here, this ship will have great damage and a massive tank... giving it 3 out of 3 might be too much.
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:48:00 -
[29]
Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank...
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Soraya Silvermoon
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:51:00 -
[30]
7 slots because: 4 for tank, sensorbooster, cap injector web/scrambler.. autocannons
but as an AC boat I suspect it`ll suck anyway becaseu it`ll be to slow..
fleet: irrelevant as tanking is pointless and any imbalace between med/low will be sorted out by the pilot using tracking enhancers or tracking computers whatever slot is free..
only place I see this ship really outdo any of the others is npcing. (wich isnt that great tbh) and to really rock at it you`d like to have 7 slots full tank. but then again I dont know how much cap probs it`ll have so might have to use one slot for cap recharge anyway.
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Corvus Crax
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank...
I keep hearing this, and I am really wondering what people mean.
The Raven has a really good tank, with a crap capacitor, and 6 medslots. It's never been any different. It's like the maelstrome won't work at all if it doesn't have 7 medslots when you listen to you people.
Sure. You could always use a few more medslots and it would be nice and all, but the arguments I've seen sofar doesn't really hold.
There are two lines of thought here. One is the shortranged type. "When you shoot people up close and personal you need a webber and scrambler and then you're out of medslots for the tank"
Well. It's supposed to be a slow artie-platform. Tux has already defined the role so on to the next.
"When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;)
All that said, I agree that the shieldboost-bonus isn't really worth the hassle. Make it a trackingbonus to make this ship a really nice artieboat and in a way regain one of those medslots from the trackingcomps ;)
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank...
Well lets compare the DPS to the Rokh shall we or the Raven? Since that's all that matters. And while you're at it compare it's DPS to the Geddon and 'Tron at long range, then proceed to compare tanking options at those ranges and finally compare cap usage.
Quote:
not enough slots to run the tank.
6 slot sheild tank + boost bonus not enough? Or is it just not enough if you also want all the goodies like MWD/AB and tracking comps to?
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:59:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 19:00:03
Sensor Boosters?
Tracking Computers?
A ship that can't lock past 100km isn't very useful in a fleet
A ship that can't shoot past 120km isn't very useful in a fleet
If I turned up to a fleet and said "hey guys, I can't lock far or shoot far but I can run a fairly good active tank" I would be laughed at and told to fit some damn sensor boosters and tracking modules.
And stop doing raw dps comparisons turret ships to missile ships - there are a hell of a lot of factors that bias the results on both sides.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Corvus Crax
"When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;)
Remind me again what comprimises the Rokh makes please?
Good tank? Check (and it's a passive hitpoint tank which is perfect for fleets)
+200km range? Check
Sensor boosters? Check
Damage modules? Check
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:07:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Corvus Crax
"When shooting at long range I need two tracking comps and then I don't have enough meds for a tank". Well. I can understand this, but if you want to be the tanking sniper I think you need to learn that all setups are a lesson in compromise. ;)
Remind me again what comprimises the Rokh makes please?
Good tank? Check (and it's a passive hitpoint tank which is perfect for fleets)
+200km range? Check
Sensor boosters? Check
Damage modules? Check
It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'...
and I know comparing missiles and turrets is stupid, but so is comparing the Maelstrom to the Rokh without just using the Rokhs strenghts to bring forward some weaknesses...
bah, I'm off to BBQ an innocent baby cow for dinner
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:08:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 19:11:56
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 19:10:06
Originally by: Corvus Crax
Originally by: Sarmaul
Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank...
I keep hearing this, and I am really wondering what people mean.
The Raven has a really good tank, with a crap capacitor, and 6 medslots. It's never been any different. It's like the maelstrome won't work at all if it doesn't have 7 medslots when you listen to you people.
Sure. You could always use a few more medslots and it would be nice and all, but the arguments I've seen sofar doesn't really hold.
The reason the raven tanks awesomely is becuase it only needs one tackling mod and no speed boost to be that effective.
BS vs BS the raven just needs a point to hold the other guy down then pummels him with torps till he dies. The challenge is to either a) ***** the ravens tank which means going towards him in a closerange monster or b) escape scramble range and flee.
Now thats fine and dandy with a missile boat, because you don't have to consider tracking or optimal. If you can lock it, you can pretty much hit it, and if its in the same ship class, hit it for full damage. Turret ships can't do that. Arty cannot hit anything within scramble range other than a POS or someone too stupid to move. Its just how tracking screws you over. So you add a web to slow them down, and an AB to try and get your speed up so you can hopefully cut transversal.
Then you realise the ravens tank only runs so awesomely becuase its cap injected, and almsot certainly has a couple of heavy nos on its target. Now as we can't mount nos, becuase that makes the already slender damage bonus over the tempest null and void, and using a cap booster will cut you down to 3 mids to tank with ... we be screwed.
Edit -
Thats three mids if it has seven to begin with btw. If you go for a ravenesque tank with cap injection, AB, web and scram you are left two mids to tank with. 
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Dixon
It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'...
9% advantage to the megaT with BS5, 5% with BS4...
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:34:00 -
[38]
Positive:
1) he told us the intended role of the maelstrom, while no surprise, now we know for sure;
shield tanked artillery boat
2) he recognizes that an active shield tank for an artilleryboat is pretty useless
3) they are still looking for a useful bonus for hyperion
Negative:
1) we are soo stuck with those 6 mids (well i have still hope tough, if we can argument well enough)
2) if rokh gets more mids than mael then expect whines about it for the next few years 
3) assault missiles , i hope they dont just balance the fittings need for caldari ships, a few minni ships will suffer if assault missiles have higher pg need than heavy misile launcher (specifically the huginn)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:41:00 -
[39]
I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:43:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47
Originally by: Pesadel0
I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship.
I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. 
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Eximius Josari
Shadow Reavers
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:43:00 -
[41]
8/6/6 RoF and Tracking bonus. Hmm...I could handle that.
Victory is the weakness of the enemy. |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47
Originally by: Pesadel0
I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship.
I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells.
Hail Jim! This man speaks the truth
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Dixon
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:51:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 19:43:47
Originally by: Pesadel0
I told you guys that we wouldn¦t get another med, now we only need to get the shield amp away of the ship.
I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells.
Now there's a thought, just don't fly it if you don't like it. I know my Caldari BS 5 isn't enough to get me to fly that stupid Rokh thing you ppl seem to like... abaddon ftw!
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Dixon
It's DPS sucks and it's alpha is the lowest of all the 'fleet BSs'...
fleets are more about focussed fire and get out before you get blown'd to pieces than to active tanking.
so consider Maelstorm's shield boosting inefective for fleetbattles and the passive tanking of the Rohk perfect.
Damage? Fleets are focussed fire.
-------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
|
Doc Brown
Gallente
Tyrell Corp
Curse Coalition
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:54:00 -
[45]
IMHO, what the blog says is that CCP thought they had it down, but after listening to us they re-thought some of the bonuses.
If they changed their minds once, they will likely do it again.
I like the new Hype bonus, but I why not toss in a sig radius reduction? This way it'll get a help when using MWD and normally.
_________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Pesadel0
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 19:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Eximius Josari
8/6/6 RoF and Tracking bonus. Hmm...I could handle that.
Hell even that seems better than the shield tanking bonus ;)
Quote:
I prefer getting the ship away from me. Its a pile of crap and it smells. ugh
But she seems so sexy ;( ,she screams fast and furious.
|
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 20:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Dixon
Now there's a thought, just don't fly it if you don't like it. I know my Caldari BS 5 isn't enough to get me to fly that stupid Rokh thing you ppl seem to like... abaddon ftw!
Theres a big differance between a ship thats cliquey (blasterthrons, scorpians etc) and a ship thats just bad. In fact, in this case the differanceisn't so much big as BIG. In fact, its so large that one persons imagination isn't enough to hold just how large a differance there is in this case.
Imagine if your shiney new eight turret fleet ship of doom got a bonus light missiles or something similarly stupid (i was going to put mining laser yield or smartbomb cap use but then decided theres actually a way you could use them ). Something that make no differance what so ever to its role. Role is crucial, because currently all you can do with it to play up to both its bonuses is mission running.
If its meant to be an uber-tanking artillery boat, then it needs a 7.5% tracking bonus and seven meds. That way it doesn't jsut function as a fleet only ship, and could potentially be used with quake to do some nasty damage while the enemy fail to kill it.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Johnny Bravo
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 20:35:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 02/08/2006 20:37:54
Ok, i can live with useless SB bonus and 6 mids - but ONLY if Maelstrom get a proper arty bonus. DAMAGE bonus, not RoF. And even that change is very probably not enouth to make Mael better than Tempest as arty platform. Now its just inferior to Tempest even in designed fleet arty role. And even more inferior in small-scale fleet arty role where 2 addidtional high slots, lower sig radius and better handling & speed play important role.
It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol.
|
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 21:01:00 -
[49]
Tracking bonus isn't really good imo. Sure it would be nice... but imo thats going to tread thin on the megathron's stat.
Imo...
If it stays 8/6/6 it needs to loose the shield boost bonus and get 10% shield HP per level. I would like a damage bonus instead of RoF bonus but I can live with it if they give it a passive shield boost so DoT becomes useful on this ship.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
|
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 21:06:00 -
[50]
Its so simple really. Make the ship 8/5/7, drop the shield tanking bonus and give it armor resists instead. It would allow for damage mods, plates and EANM in the lows, sensor boosters and tracking computers in the meds.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Merv Tring
GeoTech
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 21:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Johnny Bravo
It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol.
TomB: "Hey Tux, no one's using that new Minny battleship. Apparently it's crap."
Tux: "Nerf Tempest until it's worse."
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Auron Shadowbane
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:08:00 -
[52]
give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:12:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy.
Slapping shield extenders on this thing will probably give it the sig of jupiter...
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
give the poor mael 8/6/6 +5% damage of large proj. & +10% shield HP (also applying to extenders!) and everyone will be happy.
Slapping shield extenders on this thing will probably give it the sig of jupiter...
Not really. -____-
----------------
Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
|
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:18:00 -
[55]
Anyone have the sig radius of jupiter to hand 
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Johnny Bravo
It is not what Maelstrom THAT bad. It is not. But Tempest is better in just every situation. Hopefully this will not lead to nerfing Tempest, lol.
TomB: "Hey Tux, no one's using that new Minny battleship. Apparently it's crap."
Tux: "Nerf Tempest until it's worse."
AHAHAHA 
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.08.02 22:24:00 -
[57]
6 mids for the mael is not enought even if is going to be an arty platform
the problem here is that you have still to assign mods both in mid (sensor boosters) and lows (dmg mods), so with a split config you can't really maximize your tank (as other new BSs seem to be able to do)
we have also to consider that 1400mm are the turrets with worst tracking so traking comps (mids) are more suited for these ships...
here a comparsion between various fleet ships at 100 and 200 transversal
long range 100
long range 200
note that with 200 transversal the tempest and the mael do basically the same damage (so even alpha) with the tempest only using 6 guns
the 2 ships will have a similar fitting but the pest using a 3 slot armor tank and 3 mids for comps the mael using a 4 slot shield tank.
we have also to remember that plates gives more hps than shield boosters, so atm the difference probably is not a huge one and tempest will have better sign and speed.
also the rokh performs very well here, as you can see every ship is using 6 slots for mods while the rokh with only 4 do same dps as a mael, outrange and outtank it with a 5 tank slots + inbuilt res. (only real con is the alpha)
the abbandon simply looks scary with 4-5 lows to armor tank + res... but we have to see what it will be able to really fit
back to the mael
i think that atm is probably a bit too similar to a pest for fleet, they do basically the same damage with minor differences...
if really mael is supposed to be an arty/shield tank platform then both its bonuses/slot allocation should reflect that...
shield boost is quite useless (as even tux said) and imo a 5% dmg instead of rof is not out of place as the ship will be the one with worst tracking.
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:28:00 -
[58]
The Maelstrom isn't a bad ship (it outclasses the Pest for fleet work). The issue is that it completely fails in the role CCP plan for it to fill (shield tanked artillery boat) as you still need sensor boosters, gyrostabs and tracking computers to get a half-good fleet setup out of it.
It will replace my Tempest for fleet engagements, but the fitting will be pretty much copy & paste.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:37:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 22:40:46
Originally by: Ath Amon
6 mids for the mael is not enought even if is going to be an arty platform
the problem here is that you have still to assign mods both in mid (sensor boosters) and lows (dmg mods), so with a split config you can't really maximize your tank (as other new BSs seem to be able to do)
we have also to consider that 1400mm are the turrets with worst tracking so traking comps (mids) are more suited for these ships...
here a comparsion between various fleet ships at 100 and 200 transversal
long range 100
long range 200
note that with 200 transversal the tempest and the mael do basically the same damage (so even alpha) with the tempest only using 6 guns
the 2 ships will have a similar fitting but the pest using a 3 slot armor tank and 3 mids for comps the mael using a 4 slot shield tank.
we have also to remember that plates gives more hps than shield boosters, so atm the difference probably is not a huge one and tempest will have better sign and speed.
also the rokh performs very well here, as you can see every ship is using 6 slots for mods while the rokh with only 4 do same dps as a mael, outrange and outtank it with a 5 tank slots + inbuilt res. (only real con is the alpha)
the abbandon simply looks scary with 4-5 lows to armor tank + res... but we have to see what it will be able to really fit
back to the mael
i think that atm is probably a bit too similar to a pest for fleet, they do basically the same damage with minor differences...
if really mael is supposed to be an arty/shield tank platform then both its bonuses/slot allocation should reflect that...
shield boost is quite useless (as even tux said) and imo a 5% dmg instead of rof is not out of place as the ship will be the one with worst tracking.
Looks to me that specially the Abaddon will be really good for sniping. I dont think its cap will last long, but for gate sniping, i think it will be the best ship in the game.
And even megathron looks better than the Maelstrom in this chart, with Rohk at the bottom when it comes to dps. But i guess alpha is more important than dps in fleets.
Give the Maelstrom a DMG bonus ffs... it would give it a purpose. Ill bring it out to snipe gates. Its at least something.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:51:00 -
[60]
I said fleet work, which consists of loading up with sensor boosters, tracking computers, gyrostabs, artillery and hoping to you have enough grid for a single armour rep.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Double TaP
The Establishment
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:52:00 -
[61]
Fleet battles are dandy but in terms of ship balancing they should only look at fleet battles more than they look at npc'ing. The boost bonus on the mael will be AWESOME is small and medium sized skirmishes, which is pretty much nearly all EVE pvp.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 22:54:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Double TaP
Fleet battles are dandy but in terms of ship balancing they should only look at fleet battles more than they look at npc'ing. The boost bonus on the mael will be AWESOME is small and medium sized skirmishes, which is pretty much nearly all EVE pvp.
You can have it, it's worse than the resistance bonus even in 1 vs 1 and gets worse with increasing numbers.
NB.
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:01:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Grimpak
about the maelstorm:
instead a shield boosting bonus, add a shield HP ammount bonus?
let's say 10% per level?
Switching the RoF bonus for a straight damage bonus is interesting, but as Sarmaul (?) pointed out, 7000 alpha dmg with quake seems a bit unbalanced.
I'm a big fan of hit point amount bonuses. Too bad people haven't commented on it more. Oh, and it'd also be a christmasgift for Pottsey, I guess...
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:05:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sarmaul
I said fleet work, which consists of loading up with sensor boosters, tracking computers, gyrostabs, artillery and hoping to you have enough grid for a single armour rep.
mmm so i think you will not gain much from an armor tanked mael, you don't really need 6 mids, 2 sensor + 3 tracking is enought and 2 more 1400mm will need around 6500 more grid.
if the ship is tought to be i shield tank i suspect it will have "poor" grid and "good" cpu so i'm not that sure it will have 22k grid
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:07:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Sarmaul
I said fleet work, which consists of loading up with sensor boosters, tracking computers, gyrostabs, artillery and hoping to you have enough grid for a single armour rep.
mmm so i think you will not gain much from an armor tanked mael, you don't really need 6 mids, 2 sensor + 3 tracking is enought and 2 more 1400mm will need around 6500 more grid.
if the ship is tought to be i shield tank i suspect it will have "poor" grid and "good" cpu so i'm not that sure it will have 22k grid
I'm expecting
1400mm II x 8
MWD x 0-1 (for getting out of bubbles - very handy in 0.0)
Sensor Booster II x 3
Tracking Computer II x 2
Gyrostab II x 3
RCU II x 1
Whatever Rep fits x 1
Tracking Enhancer II x 1
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:27:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 21:16:45
Its so simple really. Make the ship 8/5/7, drop the shield tanking bonus and give it armor resists instead. It would allow for damage mods, plates and EANM in the lows, sensor boosters and tracking computers in the meds.
The reason the ship doesnt work is because its a stupid shield tanker. Dont you see how perfect it would function if it was a armor tanker?
I was about to post this exactly when I noticed you beat me to it :)
THis IS the fix that I'd like to see, and fits more in line with how other minnie BS are currently designed. Running an active 2rep tank would be very good, for smaller fights, and running a plated up fleet setup would work as well.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
Stormriders
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:30:00 -
[67]
I suggest making it a heavy skirmish boat instead. Keep the bonuses the same, but lower the HP, mass, and raise the speed. Next make the tempest heavier (more HP, mass, lower speed) and give it 10% damage instead of 5% RoF, 5% Damage. The 'Pest is the fleet BS, the Mael is better for small gangs. The 'Pest being all around better for fleet combat with more HP and a higher alpha (9 effective turrets) while the Mael would be better for small scale work with a higher DOT (10 effective turrets, but only 8 effective turrets of Alpha) and being able to close range and align warp faster.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Kazaam
Caldari
Section XIII
Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:49:00 -
[68]
I simply think CCP doesn't meant the Maelstrom to be a soloer. As Tux said, "it relies on other ships to get a tackle".
So basically, I'd say Tempest still for solo/gank, and then Maelstrom for fleets. No ?
_________________________________________
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Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:57:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kazaam
I simply think CCP doesn't meant the Maelstrom to be a soloer. As Tux said, "it relies on other ships to get a tackle".
So basically, I'd say Tempest still for solo/gank, and then Maelstrom for fleets. No ?
no, the problem here is quite different, is not that we are saying that the mael is not good because it can't solo...
what we are saying is that with its current bonuses (shield boost + rof) and a 8/6/6 slot allocation will fail in its role of fleet (shield tank) ship.
if you read various post in the 3d you will see various motivations (shield vs amor, comparsion to tempest and other ships, fitting needed)
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Johnny Bravo
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Posted - 2006.08.03 00:37:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vera Nosfyu
I suggest making it a heavy skirmish boat instead. Keep the bonuses the same, but lower the HP, mass, and raise the speed. Next make the tempest heavier (more HP, mass, lower speed) and give it 10% damage instead of 5% RoF, 5% Damage. The 'Pest is the fleet BS, the Mael is better for small gangs. The 'Pest being all around better for fleet combat with more HP and a higher alpha (9 effective turrets) while the Mael would be better for small scale work with a higher DOT (10 effective turrets, but only 8 effective turrets of Alpha) and being able to close range and align warp faster.
See? You already started to think how to nerf Tempest to get something good out of Maelstrom. Lets put it clear: We want a ship BETTER than Tempest, NOT a Tempest worse than that ship.
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Crux Australis
MotorSaikol LadrUNZ
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 01:06:00 -
[71]
Since it is still not set in stone, here is my 0.02 isk.
Shield tanked artillery platform = lol (with 'few' meds = lol¦)
Solution -> please, throw this (****ty) concept in the trash bin and gimmeh my armor tanked missile boat.
P.S.
That small blog made the liiiiittle baby jesus living inside me unable to stop crying.
P.P.S.
Don't even try to argue my idea because it is teh win.
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Kldraina
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 03:41:00 -
[72]
If I'm reading this right, it sounds like people think designing a ship (maelstrom) to fight in the 35-70km range is pointless. |
Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
Stormriders
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Johnny Bravo
Originally by: Vera Nosfyu
I suggest making it a heavy skirmish boat instead. Keep the bonuses the same, but lower the HP, mass, and raise the speed. Next make the tempest heavier (more HP, mass, lower speed) and give it 10% damage instead of 5% RoF, 5% Damage. The 'Pest is the fleet BS, the Mael is better for small gangs. The 'Pest being all around better for fleet combat with more HP and a higher alpha (9 effective turrets) while the Mael would be better for small scale work with a higher DOT (10 effective turrets, but only 8 effective turrets of Alpha) and being able to close range and align warp faster.
See? You already started to think how to nerf Tempest to get something good out of Maelstrom. Lets put it clear: We want a ship BETTER than Tempest, NOT a Tempest worse than that ship.
Actually this doesn't nerf the Tempest. It makes the Tempest a worse AC boat and a better Fleet Artillery boat. My suggested Tempest has BETTER Alpha, equal DoT and more armor and shields. It loses speed. The Maelstorm would have worse armor/shields but would have better speed, making it a good AC boat and skirmish artillery boat.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:30:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Sarmaul
1) If the Maelstrom only needs 6 mids to be effective then so does the Rokh as they do exactly the same thing (except of course, the Rokh will no doubt get larger shields to begin and it's resistance bonus will fit perfectly for fleets)
Agreed. If the Rohk gets 7 mids I would really like an explanation from Tux why.
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Rigsta
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:34:00 -
[75]
GAAAAH
It's not FINISHED!
Other changes are being introduced as well as these new ships!
It's too early to be drawing conclusions. In fact, using the word conclusion is rather pretensive. Everyone talking about these ships knows next to nothing about their current state. You're just making wild guesses.
Please wait til the damn thing's on Sisi (ie. nearly ready) 
-----------------------------------------------
CRY HAVOC! And let slip the combat drones!
To meander aimlessly towards your target...
Perhaps stopping for a picnic along the way...
And then turn |
Kelhund
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 05:58:00 -
[76]
Actually, as Tux's latest blog points out, all of this seemingly meaningless prattle may actually have a bearing on what happens. Besides, it gives us something more constructive to do than picket CCP HQ over in Rekjavik hehe. RailRokh FTW
|
Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 06:47:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rigsta
GAAAAH
It's not FINISHED!
Other changes are being introduced as well as these new ships!
It's too early to be drawing conclusions. In fact, using the word conclusion is rather pretensive. Everyone talking about these ships knows next to nothing about their current state. You're just making wild guesses. Think about it: all you know about the current design is some little tidbits that Tux has mentioned on the Dev blog - it might have 15K shields for all you know.
Please wait til the damn thing's on Sisi (ie. nearly ready)
Tuxford actually asked for these threads, and Hammer actually posted on the third party "scrapheap challenge" board on these ships - they're certainly reading these threads for ideas, and probably looking at the math so they don't have to do it themselves too.
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Nova Strikes
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 07:25:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ok, after reading the latest tuxford blog, I think Maelstrom is basicly doomed to fail. Nuff said, really.
Hyperion with a mass reduction bonus will enable it to be really fast, specially fitted with those new internal stabilizers that decrease mass even more. And with that kind of damage up close, well, lets just say Im not taking my minmatar skills to battleship level until we have a proper battleship.
I have no idea why he doesnt say one word about the Rohk. Guess he feels its fine.
Add your comments please, always nice to see what people think.
As Caldari heading for a Rohk in the future.. Im still getting mixed signals tho from you mini's?
What do you mini's want?
A fleet ship, snipe with shield tank like Tux is trying to make?
A AC boat fast an agile with armor/shields tank?
An altogether different ship like some said, Missile boat with an armor tank? (sounds interesting to me)
And if you are happy with what Tux is outlining but you just want that 7th med and a passive shields bonus that compilements fleet work...then ok.. if it doesnt give you an uber ship totally out classing the other 3 then..Give em what they want! Lets find out if it fits in alright.
Doesnt sound like to much to ask for from my point of view, ye sure us Cladari are the meds guys but lets see if the mini can actually put together a good shield tank for once lol.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 07:54:00 -
[79]
I do not know who mentioned the shield HP bonus, but that idea sounds good to me. For a fleet ship, effective HP is what counts, and outside of fleet, it could mount a nice passive tank for a bs.
However I do not use Minmatar ships, so cannot comment much.
------------------------------
at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is. |
Wilfan Ret'nub
Omega Corp
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 09:06:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Nova Strikes
What do you mini's want?
A non-sucky ship. Our standards have become pretty low with time ...
Originally by: Nova Strikes
A fleet ship, snipe with shield tank like Tux is trying to make?
That's what Tux wants. It's looks unworkable, though. Active tank has too much "delay" to be usefull in fleet. It takes time to boost shields to the effective ammount extenders/hardeners give. There's also lag.
Also, mids are too crowded with the standard sniper mids of 3 sensor booster, 2 tracking computer. That's why you hear "Maelstrom needs 7 mids" (in comparison, Rokh doesn't need tracking computers).
Originally by: Nova Strikes
A AC boat fast an agile with armor/shields tank?
The motivation here is: if Tux is so hellbent on active shield tanking, go for a (secondary) role that can actually use it. That menas AC boat. Less incoming DPS means you can sustain the tank and you need only 3-4 mids (MWD, web, scram, 4 if you don't count cap booster as tank).
Also, AC Tempest is going to be obsolete (to put it mildly) by the Hyperion and ECM/Nos changes, so a better AC boat is needed.
Originally by: Nova Strikes
An altogether different ship like some said, Missile boat with an armor tank? (sounds interesting to me)
Another option that would make a usefull ship. It would even fit into the big picture - Tempest projectiles, Maelstrom missiles, Typhoon the ugly half-bred mutt.
Originally by: Nova Strikes
Doesnt sound like to much to ask for from my point of view, ye sure us Cladari are the meds guys but lets see if the mini can actually put together a good shield tank for once lol.
With less mids, lower shield HP and lower cap? No problem, just give Maelstrom +50% per level shield boost bonus...
My personal favourite - Typhoon gets +1 missile slot, Maelstrom gets 5% damage/something bonuses (something being 10% shield HP, tracking or fallof). Then you have missile boat (Typhoon), DPS projectiles boat (Tempest, though DPS and projectiles is contradiction in terms) and alpha strike projectile boat (Maelstrom, salvos for eleventy billion damage with Quake be damned - if it bothers anyone, fix T2 ammo).
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Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
|
Posted - 2006.08.03 10:58:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Originally by: Nova Strikes
What do you mini's want?
A non-sucky ship. Our standards have become pretty low with time ...
Quote for truth.
If you insist on active shield tanking, just give us the slots to do it rather than a bonus that is doomed to be loathed. The thing is that shield tanking (ie massive cap use) is not compatable with close range no matter which way you cut it. Even if we got a shield tanking AC boat, it would be fraught with problems based on the cap penalty of MWD combined with inherent problem of not being able to mount nos on top of eight turrets.
I'd go for an armor tanking missile boat. That would at least be new and interesting. It wouldn't put the raven out of buisness, as armor tanks are more about sustainability than sustaining vast amounts of damage in the short term, however with 7-8 missile points, but no missile damage bonus, it wouldn't out damage the raven by much, and leave us our meds to target paint, and thus the much maligned target painter bonus of the belicose might become useful.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Soraya Silvermoon
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:02:00 -
[82]
THe tempest is perfect as it is...
My suggestion for a concept would be:
Make the typhoon a missile boat. its useless as it is. and noone enjoy its sniping bonus.
Then make the maelstrom an AC boat and I would ve a very happy minmatar bs pilot.
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
Make the typhoon a missile boat. its useless as it is. and noone enjoy its sniping bonus.
The sniping bonus was changed into a launcher ROF bonus quite a while ago...
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:36:00 -
[84]
8/4/7 6 missiles/3 turrets, 5% missile rof, 5% to speed (or maybe even TP bonus)
it will be so nice to have it like that... sad the crappy 4/4 missile/turret allocation is still there :(
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:39:00 -
[85]
The only thing wrong with the current phoon is it's PG and CPU - everything else is fine.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:43:00 -
[86]
How about a 8/6/6 5 turret slots and 5 missile slots,bonus to launcher ROF and target painter bonus?If tux wants us "caldaris" make us true killers.
One thing is for sure i will not bring the current maelstrom to fleet gangs,my tempest will do much better.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:47:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Merv Tring
EDIT: And what was that about Assault missiles needing more grid but less CPU? Are they changing the assault launchers (removing a decently effective anti-frig weapon from cruisers) or are they adding a whole new launcher?
Probably removing.. I said they shouldn't a LONG time ago. And yes, I was right on the fitting...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:48:00 -
[88]
yup PG is quite terrible...
but imo also is the 4/4... for the rest the ship is nice, good sign, quite fast, good drone bay... can even fit a decent tank...
but really that 4/4 is terrible imo, extremely inefficent both dps and range wise...
the only real efficent config i see is as half nos boat, there it perform well... but for the rest...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 03/08/2006 13:31:11
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
Make the typhoon a missile boat. its useless as it is. and noone enjoy its sniping bonus.
The sniping bonus was changed into a launcher ROF bonus quite a while ago...
lol I must have been away during that patch.. excellent now gimme an AC boat :)
AC Tempest. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:38:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 03/08/2006 13:39:05
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 03/08/2006 13:31:11
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon
Make the typhoon a missile boat. its useless as it is. and noone enjoy its sniping bonus.
The sniping bonus was changed into a launcher ROF bonus quite a while ago...
lol I must have been away during that patch.. excellent now gimme an AC boat :)
AC Tempest. :)
Except the AC tempest is gonna be useless once the hyperion hits the scene. Even now, blasterthrons generally kill AC tempests or get away from them thanks to Null, Void, and good piloting skills.
EDIT: Oh, not to mention the EW nerf. Once the tempest can no longer fit a single multispec as a DPS equalizer, it will fall to ravens, too.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:40:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Except the AC tempest is gonna be useless once the hyperion hits the scene. Even now, blasterthrons generally kill AC tempests or get away from them thanks to Null, Void, and good piloting skills.
Yep. But he asked for AC boat. And Hyperion pilots need people to kill...
Sorry for making fun of game balance...
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
kessah
Caldari
Regeneration
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:02:00 -
[92]
i dont see why we should make the pest redudant, the maelstrom should be made for Close Quaters like the hyperon and the other two races for fleet.
Gallente tbfh already have 2 bs ment for CQ but whatever..
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Forever Pirate |
Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: kessah
i dont see why we should make the pest redudant, the maelstrom should be made for Close Quaters like the hyperon and the other two races for fleet.
Gallente tbfh already have 2 bs ment for CQ but whatever..
I bet you that over 70% of the Megathrons currently fitted on TQ currently have railguns fitted...
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: kessah
i dont see why we should make the pest redudant, the maelstrom should be made for Close Quaters like the hyperon and the other two races for fleet.
Gallente tbfh already have 2 bs ment for CQ but whatever..
I bet you that over 70% of the Megathrons currently fitted on TQ currently have railguns fitted...
That's probably because the majority of pilots are to chicken to go out solo or in small gangs and only stick to big fleets.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:51:00 -
[95]
The problem starts with poor built in range on the Maelstrom, compounds when it meets with poor tracking on artillery, continues it's downward spiral when it meets with a ship bonus that is simply inferior to a resistance bonus, and concludes it's journey to the scrap heap when it runs into the fitting nightmare that 6 medium slots will leave it in after trying to compensate for all of the above issues.
I've looked at the ship. I've thought about the concept. I have no idea what the developers are thinking, but I'm thinking "I'll pass on this ship, thanks".
J.A.F.O.
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