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Captin Biltmore Amarr Damage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.02 21:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Stamm That's two threads with people in more or less agreement. Tuxford might be in danger of losing his job. CCP CEO > Um. Tux. Sorry mate, we've had to replace you, cost cuts and stuff, the hamster feed is up in price etc. GL! Tuxford > Oh noes! CCP CEO > Right minimum wage clerical temp. See this forum? Just do whatever is said in a thread with at least 20 posts in it and no flaming. I don't think that's fair to TUX... Even though it is in good fun/humor he works hard for us. I can assure you he's thinking hard about T3 BS's and the Abaddon. Look at it this way...we have a pool of a couple thousand dedicated users that are looking at the stats to come up with this "conclusion"... Tux has him and a handfull of devs. Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Stamm Amarr GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.02 21:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Stamm That's two threads with people in more or less agreement. Tuxford might be in danger of losing his job. CCP CEO > Um. Tux. Sorry mate, we've had to replace you, cost cuts and stuff, the hamster feed is up in price etc. GL! Tuxford > Oh noes! CCP CEO > Right minimum wage clerical temp. See this forum? Just do whatever is said in a thread with at least 20 posts in it and no flaming. Don't be silly, Tuxford's not the enemy nor is the community always right, even when in agreement. So far I've found him to be quite an agreable dev, even though he does put in things that I'm not always fond of. Oh, sorry if this wasn't clear. I wasn't having a go at Tuxford. I was saying that if we keep agreeing there will be nothing for him to do :P
Sae Marr Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:27:00 - [33] I think the launcher hp idea is brilliant, it would allow for an armor tanked missile boat setup for solo/small gangs, something amarr really need. Although I'd say 6 hardpoints seems more fair. -
Luric Vizjier The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Ithildin Not to forget, the Raven has 700 CPU while the proposed Abaddon has just over 600. With more CPU-intensive launchers to satisfy, the Abaddon would be running a wee bit tighter on CPU than the Raven. Although, admittedly, this is not taking into account the shield boosters' higher CPU need compared to armour repairers. It actually works out quite well - I did the math earlier and it basically boils down to having 61CPU to fill 1 high, 1-2 lows and 3 mids. If you use active hardeners it gets more or less constrictive depending on how hoss you want the tank to be. Like the Khanid MkII suggestions it's probably not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. :) Bah, screw it, lets just make the Abaddon into a Khanid ship and use the ideas from the Khanid MKII thread and make it the Amarr's Raven. :) -----------------------------------------------
Captin Biltmore Amarr Damage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Luric Vizjier Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Ithildin Not to forget, the Raven has 700 CPU while the proposed Abaddon has just over 600. With more CPU-intensive launchers to satisfy, the Abaddon would be running a wee bit tighter on CPU than the Raven. Although, admittedly, this is not taking into account the shield boosters' higher CPU need compared to armour repairers. It actually works out quite well - I did the math earlier and it basically boils down to having 61CPU to fill 1 high, 1-2 lows and 3 mids. If you use active hardeners it gets more or less constrictive depending on how hoss you want the tank to be. Like the Khanid MkII suggestions it's probably not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. :) Bah, screw it, lets just make the Abaddon into a Khanid ship and use the ideas from the Khanid MKII thread and make it the Amarr's Raven. :) HELL YEA Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Talon Draven Insta Trade Transport Service	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:47:00 - [36] Edited by: Talon Draven on 02/08/2006 23:55:00 Edited by: Talon Draven on 02/08/2006 23:49:30 Nice write up, but I also think the Abaddon should be a large Arby/Curse. Which in some way, you kind of refer to by the missile idea. For one, there is not nearly enough drone ships in EvE to make up for the amount of skill points you can specialize in. Now, before anyone says ( OMFG go to Galle you Nub!!1 ) I will say, I AM currently training for Ishkur then Ishtar and then goinng for the Pilgrim. Ok, with that out of the way, I have listed all the good drone ships available except for the Domi, and the new Galle Tier 2 BC. And there isn't 1 Faction drone ship available, so another would not flood the market by any means. So to continue, we all know the current problems with cap on the Abaddon design currently, the fact that no matter what you do with the current layout you are making the Geddon or Apoc less useful, the lack of ECM room to compete with other races, and finally we all know the EM/Therm problem that Amarr are faced with. Well the best way I can see to make an decent ship to please alot of people is the drone ship/curse route. My idea for the ship is ( totally rough, but you get the idea ) Slot layout 7/5/7 - 5 launcher 4 turret bonus would be that of the Curse 5% tracking disrupt 10% drone hitpoints/dmg. But I would think instead of tracking disrupt (which ppl would just use ECM instead) give it a bonus similar to another missile ship the Amar have 10% bonus to EM missile 5% thermal alla the Inquisitor With a drone bay of 150 m3 not so big that it makes Domi useless, not so small that it's bonus is wasted. Like I said this is really rough (you numbers people can tweak it so it's correct), but it would solve ALOT of amarr problems, provide a nice ship progression, give Amarr some ECM ability, and a variety in DMG type they so desperately need, all in 1 ship. Oh, and if implemented, Abaddon locust thing works in this version! PS. OMFG I have a AVATAR! "This is a brutal universe where your decisions and actions can severly affect yourself - as well as others." - Oveur \| 2006.06.29 17:21:46
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Luric Vizjier Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Ithildin Not to forget, the Raven has 700 CPU while the proposed Abaddon has just over 600. With more CPU-intensive launchers to satisfy, the Abaddon would be running a wee bit tighter on CPU than the Raven. Although, admittedly, this is not taking into account the shield boosters' higher CPU need compared to armour repairers. It actually works out quite well - I did the math earlier and it basically boils down to having 61CPU to fill 1 high, 1-2 lows and 3 mids. If you use active hardeners it gets more or less constrictive depending on how hoss you want the tank to be. Like the Khanid MkII suggestions it's probably not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. :) Bah, screw it, lets just make the Abaddon into a Khanid ship and use the ideas from the Khanid MKII thread and make it the Amarr's Raven. :) I likes it! Actually my original idea was to put 8 launchers on the Abaddon but that meant that it precisely equaled the Raven's damage output (assuming that a Raven wouldn't put guns in the last 2 high slots). It took me a while to figure that out since every time I graphed it I could only see 1 line despite having 2 bs on the graph. I backed it down to 7, as I thought it was a bit more balanced, but in my heart of hearts I want 8. If the Rokh can have 8 turrets then by god I want 8 launchers too. YARRRRRRRRR!!!!!! TAO, Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Stamm Amarr GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:58:00 - [38] Going back to the 6 turrets v 7 turrets thing... Less damage than the raven, with big CPU problems is fine. That's 7 turrets. Way less damage than the raven with big CPU problems means that missiles would be a poor choice.
DannyLohner	Posted - 2006.08.03 00:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Captin Biltmore Originally by: Stamm That's two threads with people in more or less agreement. Tuxford might be in danger of losing his job. CCP CEO > Um. Tux. Sorry mate, we've had to replace you, cost cuts and stuff, the hamster feed is up in price etc. GL! Tuxford > Oh noes! CCP CEO > Right minimum wage clerical temp. See this forum? Just do whatever is said in a thread with at least 20 posts in it and no flaming. I don't think that's fair to TUX... Even though it is in good fun/humor he works hard for us. I can assure you he's thinking hard about T3 BS's and the Abaddon. Look at it this way...we have a pool of a couple thousand dedicated users that are looking at the stats to come up with this "conclusion"... Tux has him and a handfull of devs. A handful of devs...you're right that's not much. Oh wait, these are guys who spend their entire working life on exactly this type of thinking. If anything, they will appreciate the comments, have themselves a laugh, and then consider their options and do what is best for their company. In the end they are going to look at what it will take to make the changes the community wants, talk to their PMs about cost vs justification and he/she will make the decision on what makes it to release and what doesn't.
Mohadeeb GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.03 00:47:00 - [40] Well with out running any figures myself, from what I've read from my distinguished collegue's post original post I take it he's research it a little bit. nice work, Cap is always an issue with amarr and if we run out we're effectively screwed. I'd also like to see a bigger drone bay on these ships atm I don't think that any ship can hold 5 heavy drones apart from *lente, and with all these new EW and utility drones it certainly giving our *lente brothers a huge advantage in battle both in damage and versatility. Do it once do it right
Espen Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.03 08:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Talon Draven And there isn't 1 Faction drone ship available Actually, there is one, Gallente Navy Vexor.
Espen Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Mohadeeb Well with out running any figures myself, from what I've read from my distinguished collegue's post original post I take it he's research it a little bit. nice work, Cap is always an issue with amarr and if we run out we're effectively screwed. I'd also like to see a bigger drone bay on these ships atm I don't think that any ship can hold 5 heavy drones apart from *lente, and with all these new EW and utility drones it certainly giving our lente brothers a huge advantage in battle both in damage and versatility. Do it once do it right Armageddon can hold 5 heavys, the Typhoon too. so fu **ldari!
Talon Draven Insta Trade Transport Service	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:28:00 - [43] Edited by: Talon Draven on 03/08/2006 09:29:10 Originally by: Espen Actually, there is one, Gallente Navy Vexor. Sorry, I do suppose that counts, but I always thought the cross faction (ie. galle/mimn, amarr/caldari) ships were the "Faction" ships and the Navies were well... "Navy Issue" And while on that topic, why hasn't some pirate faction ever thought to cross Galle/Khanid tech to make some really nice lookin ships... that's what it looks like Jove might have done tho. "This is a brutal universe where your decisions and actions can severly affect yourself - as well as others." - Oveur \| 2006.06.29 17:21:46
ParMizaN Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.03 10:10:00 - [44] Missiles ring out as a big nono for me really, considering the sac was so bad and missile training on the amarr side is practically nil for most pilots so far, rendering it a "useless" tank ship for most until the skills are up to par. Grangted, it would be some variation but a raven would probably tank better anyways and the fitting would be all messed up. sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.03 10:43:00 - [45] Originally by: ParMizaN Missiles ring out as a big nono for me really, considering the sac was so bad and missile training on the amarr side is practically nil for most pilots so far, rendering it a "useless" tank ship for most until the skills are up to par. Grangted, it would be some variation but a raven would probably tank better anyways and the fitting would be all messed up. if you dont want to fit launcher because you dont have good skills with them you could always stick to lasers/other turrets. those launcher hardpoints wouldnt have any bonuses attached to them so you wouldnt really lose out on something if you dont fit missiles. and aside from using projectiles there arent all that many alternatives when it comes to mounting weapons which dont use cap. with our current tanking ships (like maller/proph) people already go for projectile weapons when they want to get a heavy tank going simply because those will make for a more sustainable tank. you alreay lose out on damage if you do this anyway. so adding launchers for the tankmode of the ship wouldnt really be much of a change in that regard. but the tanksetup wouldnt look like it has been defiled by a horde of barbarians. also: iirc sac had only 3 launchers when it still had the missile bonus and even with those you could get a nice nos+launchers+heavy tank setup going. it just didnt work out well for dealing damage.
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Foulis and should make the ammar cry a bit when they realize they have to train ANOTHER weapons system. Eheehe, welcome to our world! Given the number of pilots who already use non-laser weapons on their Amarr ships, I think we've been "in your world" for quite a while now!
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:20:00 - [47] this will definetly become an incredibly heavy armor tanked autocannon monster
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:26:00 - [48] Abaddon needs to be different. That I think we're all agreed on, even Tux. Problem is, it isn't, even with no cap bonus. As others have noted, where it's good it makes the other BS redundant; where it's bad it's pointless. It really needs a rethink. So what would a Khanid BS look like? Well, following the excellent ideas (hint) in Sarmaul's thread it'd be a missile-heavy, missile and resist bonus armour tanker. Easy enough to make - hard part is not making it an armour-tanked Raven, though only having one missile bonus (and less flex in the midslots for ECM) should still leave the Raven as the preeminent missile boat. But 8/4/8 with 4 turrets, 6 launchers, 5% resists and 5% cruise/siege RoF would certainly be a fun ship to fly. Or maybe even 8/5/7 to squeeze BCUs/tank slots with compensation of a welcome extra midslot. Won't happen, but wish it could!
DarK STK Scientific	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:27:00 - [49] Agreed on giving it missile hardpoints. I don't believe that there should only be 1 whorthwhile BS missile boat. Most likely it will suffer CPU issues. However, I then worry that if you give it 8 missiles combined with the resist bonus to armour it will be much better than the raven. Agreed on the RoF bonus becoming a damage bonus. If that were to happen then I don't care if the ship has cap issues, those can be overcome with mods or using megabeams instead with mods(I'm a "tachyons are 1 class above 1400's and 425's" person). If it were me all race's tier 3 with the exception of caldari would be a missile boat of some variety as this game lacks missile boats.
Flash Landsraad Nexus Legion Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:51:00 - [50] I say turn it into a hybrid maller/arbitrator. 5% armour resists, 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness. 8/5/7 slot layout and up the speed very slightly. Then we can have an 8x megapulse tracking disrupting tank boat. It wont be massive on the DPS front, but it can tank whilst using Amarr's EW speciality. I'd love a boat like this. Whilst I can see where you're coming from on the missile side of things with the back story and Khanid, personally I would really prefer not to have to put missiles on my lovely amarr ship when wanting a tank. Idealy we'd be given a full on arbitrator daddy with the right sized drone bay, a tracking disruptor bonus, either the same resist bonus or a drone damage bonus, and a 6/6/8 slot layout. However due to Gallente whining I doubt very much whether this would happen. Maybe they could be appeased by changing the second Domi bonus to another drone bonus like drone tracking or drone control range perhaps...? Signature removed due to lack of Eve-related content. -Ivan K Fair enough Ivan, sorry :( - Flash
Sheeana	Posted - 2006.08.03 12:07:00 - [51] Wow! I read through every post and from what I can see this ship is going to be **zle, to right you cant step on the APOC's cap bonus, to right you cant touch the Geddons ROF bonus. So instead you get a tach ship that is supose to tank but actuly CANT due to cap **from the guns and the suposed tank+ mods, you all want this ship to be different from other ships but are hell bent on fitting 8 tachs, 5 meds, 8 lows and a massive cargo bay AND a big drone bay AND loads of CPU AND big PG AND make ice cream.... The only way to make this ship not step on the APOC and Geddon toes is to make it a drone boat or missile spammer, now from what I see 45% want a drone boat and tbh there isnt enough GOOD drone boats in this game. But 45% also want it to be this insane Tach ship with no flaws and a further 10% want it as a missile spammer. If we get this insane Tach boat it will have more CPU than a domi with enough meds to do what ever the hell you want with it, miners will flock to this ship if it has a good size drone bay aswell and the APOC miner will be no more. Basicaly you just cant make this a tach boat without someone complaining about it either sucking at its intended purpose or just making its sister ships a waste of space... Get it!?! Waste of space... sigh* If you make it a drone boat then you will please most except the tach people that complain about thier own design. OR you could please everyone by improving the APOC so that this ship doesnt have to be a tach boat as the APOC is already 90% already there it just needs more PG and CPU to get the job done.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.03 12:17:00 - [52] well i suppose if they gave it a 5% dmg bonus and 5% armor resist with some nice pg but slow/heavy as a MOTHER**** it could just be a tachyon fleet boat which wouldn't make other bs obscolete. (Apoc already is inferior to anything but a maller and geddon would still be the close range dps dishing ***tard cuz the abbadon would be too heavy/slow for mobile gangs)
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.03 12:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Flash Landsraad I say turn it into a hybrid maller/arbitrator. 5% armour resists, 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness. 8/5/7 slot layout and up the speed very slightly. Then we can have an 8x megapulse tracking disrupting tank boat. It wont be massive on the DPS front, but it can tank whilst using Amarr's EW speciality. I'd love a boat like this. that would actually make it more likely to become an 8x autocannon + ewar + tank boat. also tracking disruptors are not as useful for a battleship as they are for cruisers.
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:55:00 - [54] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/08/2006 11:55:35 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Flash Landsraad I say turn it into a hybrid maller/arbitrator. 5% armour resists, 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness. 8/5/7 slot layout and up the speed very slightly. Then we can have an 8x megapulse tracking disrupting tank boat. It wont be massive on the DPS front, but it can tank whilst using Amarr's EW speciality. I'd love a boat like this. that would actually make it more likely to become an 8x autocannon + ewar + tank boat. also tracking disruptors are not as useful for a battleship as they are for cruisers. Correct. It will be like the other PvP apocs, except better tank. The massive damage nerf due to EANMII's now means that people can now tank your 1000dps gankageddons long enough to take them out Once I finish Amarr BS 5, its time to train up for t2 AC's. But then again, I could futureproof myself by training up for a caldari BS --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Miner altski	Posted - 2006.08.04 13:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Captin Biltmore First off: No amarr ship should ever, EVER have more missile slots than a raven...ever. Amarr only dabble in missiles, caldari are the kings. I wouldn't be opposed to 5 missile slots though. Point A = Amarr are the turret specalists, no Caldari (or any other race for that matter) ship should ever have the same amount of turrets as an apoc or abbadon. (But they do, so caldari cant corner the market on missiles, i aint heard gallente moaning that amarr has the only T2 droneboats) Point B = Amarr need some variety, if it turns out to be a EW boat, a missle boat or a droneboat i dont care.... just not another gunboat please, the sac has already been changed into a sub zealot (another gunboat any1).
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:15:00 - [56] They could always reinvent the Apoc as a drone boat. It's got more nos, great armor and less ECM potential. Either the Apoc or the Abaddon could get a resist bonus, or a cap charge use bonus. They are quite exchangable. Why I prefer the Apoc as a drone boat is because it is used more as an npcer/miner than it is as a pvp ship anyhow. The geddon does both skirmishes and fleet fights better and cheaper. You could replace the RoF bonus with a range bonus and let pulses wtfpwn. There's lots of options. Duplicating bonuses is just going to lead to problems.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:38:00 - [57] ah, I get the idea, you are creating the next easy mode mission ship that will leave the raven in dust behind... 7 launchers, enough grid and cap to fit a dual LAR II tank and forget about it once it is running. even with 1 cpu mod to fit sieges (not needed imo, cruise will do ok). great job. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Captin Biltmore Amarr Damage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:44:00 - [58] Make the abaddon a smartbomb boat...give it a %5 damage bonus and a 10% range bonus to large smart bombs... Wouldn't be any more useless than the current ship. Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.08.04 15:26:00 - [59] I really thing the Abbadon would do better as a half-missile/half turret boat. It seems that the one thing ammarian pilots need is a more versatile BS. The other two already cover the gank, fleet and tank roles, but you won't see ammarian BSes outside blood/sansha territory unless it's a fleet. And this is because every single rat from the other factions have very high EM resistances(70+ is common). Giving the Abbadon mode missile slots will allow for different damage types(making it better for these other areas), as well as better handling of cruiser and frig sized targets(which large turrets suck at). Also, another thing is more mid slots and less low slots. Perhaps the ammarian can use more EW modules in their ships if they actually have slots for it(and the extra slots allow for shield tanking when necessary). I think this is way better than trying to make it a supertank or a gank or another fleet ship...
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Hugh Ruka ah, I get the idea, you are creating the next easy mode mission ship that will leave the raven in dust behind... did you also get the part where the ship doesnt have any bonuses to launchers?

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