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Zhaine Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:42:00 - [61] 8/5/7 8 Turret Slots 5% Damage Bonus (not ROF), 5% resist Bonus 100m3 Drone Space (as in current stats) Same cap ammount but lower (ie faster) recharge time than now. Enough PG to fit full MegaBeam IIs plus about 1500-2500 spare PG with AWU 5. 600-650 cargo. Powerful enough but far far from overpowered. Allows a range of set ups each with strengths and weaknesses. Doesn't differ to far from current design, doesn't make Apoc or Geddon obselite. Gives Amarr just ONE T1 ship with more than 4 meds. At least that's how I see it, but I may have missed something. . . any feedback? And as regards to the missiles idea. . . well personally I hope that the "Khanid Mk II" ideas are adopted, but that Amarr missile ships are kept to T2 and not adopted for T1. But then I'm biased because I haven't and don't want to train missiles - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Lobo Noturno I really thing the Abbadon would do better as a half-missile/half turret boat. It seems that the one thing ammarian pilots need is a more versatile BS. a split turret/launcher setup can also be very nice as can be seen with the typhoon and nightmare. the cap use of lasers would once more be a problem though. if you take 1 bonus for the launchers you will have only one left for laser cap or damage/rof. Originally by: Lobo Noturno Also, another thing is more mid slots and less low slots. Perhaps the ammarian can use more EW modules in their ships if they actually have slots for it(and the extra slots allow for shield tanking when necessary). personally i dont like that idea all that much as i dont think amarr should get a bs with 6+ medslots which is what a dedicated ewar boat would need. also: aside from the fact that shieldtanks are a horrible idea for amarrian ships...for pvp use theres really not much reason to fit one as long as armortanking is still possible.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.04 16:58:00 - [63] Originally by: Zhaine abaddon setup that would just make it a bit less caphungry. not add anything new to amarrian battleships. also: that could still be setup as a better geddon/apoc for most things.
Magonushi	Posted - 2006.08.04 17:34:00 - [64] Originally by: Flash Landsraad I say turn it into a hybrid maller/arbitrator. 5% armour resists, 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness. 8/5/7 slot layout and up the speed very slightly. Then we can have an 8x megapulse tracking disrupting tank boat. It wont be massive on the DPS front, but it can tank whilst using Amarr's EW speciality. I'd love a boat like this. Whilst I can see where you're coming from on the missile side of things with the back story and Khanid, personally I would really prefer not to have to put missiles on my lovely amarr ship when wanting a tank. Idealy we'd be given a full on arbitrator daddy with the right sized drone bay, a tracking disruptor bonus, either the same resist bonus or a drone damage bonus, and a 6/6/8 slot layout. However due to Gallente whining I doubt very much whether this would happen. Maybe they could be appeased by changing the second Domi bonus to another drone bonus like drone tracking or drone control range perhaps...? +1 For King and Kingdom, God favor Khanid.
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.05 01:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Parmizan sac was so bad and missile training on the amarr side is practically nil for most pilots so far, rendering it a "useless" tank ship for most until the skills are up to par. Granted, it would be some variation but a raven would probably tank better anyways and the fitting would be all messed up. Honestly, missiles on an Amarr ship have never been done correctly, except for the Inquisitor. The original Sac "mixed weapons" approach just doesn't work (on any ship of any race) as you have so adroitely pointed out. The problem is simple. You need a bonus to missiles to get roughly the same dps as a turret. This is why the ruppie has 2 extra missile hardpoints instead of just one extra turret. Or the other option is to simply have more launchers instead of an rof bonus to launchers. The net effect is the same. The training time issue is moot really. You need a lot of points in a lot of skilltrees to fly a Typhoon effectively. This concept isn't quite as skill intensive as you could just use lasers and not worry about the missile hardpoints like we do with the Apoc. But at least we would have the option of using em. The point is that the Abaddon needs a no-cap lower dps weapon to use in "tanking" mode. 7 launchers are the only option besides drones. I refuse to consider putting AC's on the Abaddon as a viable option, but without the launcher points that will be the only opportunity for a zero cap weapon to be able to utilize the Abaddon tank. Yes, it will turn the Abaddon into a lesser version of the Raven in a sense. But Raven pwns even the 7 launcher Abaddon DPS wise, even assuming the Raven doesn't put anything in the gun slots. It has more slots for ballistics down low as well. It provides Amarr pilots with a versatile beam platform with massive striking potential (assuming the +rof bonus changes to +damage) and a low DPS, no cap tanking BS for close range encounters. Which is something we DESPERATELY need since we have very little versatility at the moment. And, as several people have pointed out, even with 615tf base CPU fitting 7 siege and a tank will most likely require fitting mods because CPU will be so tight. And tbh that's just fine since that's a balancing factor. Originally by: Hugh Ruka ah, I get the idea, you are creating the next easy mode mission ship that will leave the raven in dust behind... Actually, nothing beats shieldtanking ravens for missions because of faction mods and crystal implants. Although tanking spawns in 0.0 may be easier with the Abaddon rather than the Raven. As I said before however, I could care less about PvE. I am solely concerned with PvP'ing and ships meant to fill niche roles in the Amarrian fleet that are glaringly obvious right now. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.05 02:00:00 - [66] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Lobo Noturno I really thing the Abbadon would do better as a half-missile/half turret boat. It seems that the one thing ammarian pilots need is a more versatile BS. a split turret/launcher setup can also be very nice as can be seen with the typhoon and nightmare. the cap use of lasers would once more be a problem though. if you take 1 bonus for the launchers you will have only one left for laser cap or damage/rof. The Typhoon is good because it gets a bonus to both missiles, guns, and has a whopping dronebay to make up for the lower damage of the split weapons system. It's a good design and implementation from Tux's team and I applaud them for it. The Abaddon shouldn't be a carbon copy though. The Nightmare is actually one of the least used faction BS. Why? Split weapons systems with 1 bonus to each weapon results in inferior dps. But the real issue with the Abaddon is simply this: Cap use Without a cap bonus, the abaddon will not be able to support even 4 guns and a tank in a close range setup. 4 megapulse without a cap bonus uses more cap than an Armageddon with 7 megapulse. The Abaddon MUST have a zero cap use weapon in order to sustain tanking. For Amarr, that would be missiles, since drones without a bonus would not be feasible. In addition, the Abaddon truly needs 7 turrets to sustain even a moderate DPS since none of those missile hardpoints have a bonus. 325 DPS is really low for a BS's primary weapon system, even assuming it's meant to be a tanking setup. 7 missile hardpoints and a damage bonus make this the Amarr volley damage/tanking specialist ship. It's actually something new, unique, and versatile. Something Amarr indisputably need. Ironically, the missile hardpoints are another reason why the ship needs to be 8/5/7. 8/4/8 and missiles means that you could fit the co-proc for extra cpu and and unbelievable tank. 7 means that in order to get the 7th launcher you have to compromise your tank. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.05 02:57:00 - [67] If they get 6+ missle slots like it should... and all tier 3 BSs get 11 mid/low then it should only be 8/4/7. If all tier 3 BS get 12 slots it should get 8/5/7. There is no reason why a BS that is meant to tank OR pwn should be given an 8/4/8 where 20% cap relay's will be an easy tech 1 freebee. Armor tanking isn't exactly CPU intensive so launchers do make a good choice and anything to get more amarr characters to train missiles is never a bad idea. If it does get 6+ launchers it shouldn't get more than a 75m/3 drone bay. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.08.05 03:07:00 - [68] The OP brings up some very Valid concerns. The best Idea in my opinion is change the 5% ROF bonus to 5% damage. That makes it a lot less cap intensive to begin with, and gives it much higher burst damage, which is very nice in fleets. I would stop there and see how it goes in testing, then adjust from there, before it goes live, mainly by adjusting its cap. On a similer note, the rokh is going to have similer issues, albit for a different reason. 8 Hybrid guns are going to use a lot of cap, and shield tanking sucks your capaciter dry pretty fast. This isn't that big of an issue on Caldari missle boats, but is the bain of caldari gunboats.
Justin Cody Caldari Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.05 03:56:00 - [69] Originally by: Audri Fisher On a similer note, the rokh is going to have similer issues, albit for a different reason. 8 Hybrid guns are going to use a lot of cap, and shield tanking sucks your capaciter dry pretty fast. This isn't that big of an issue on Caldari missle boats, but is the bain of caldari gunboats. passive tank the rokh. those t2 passive resist amps are great. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.08.05 10:02:00 - [70] You guys have missed the entire point of balance by excluding the other factors into your analysis. Amarr has been (and most likely will stay) nerf'ed due to the em/therm resist bonuses that make lasers completely ineffective hence most if not all pvp setups use non-lasers for damage dealing. Until that issue is resolved, this ship just like the apoc and to a lessor degree the geddon as nothing more than mining op tank ships. Sure, you will see some people try to use it, but after a couple of months it will be back to the standard raven set ups. Probably what is intended by CCP anyhow. If you watched the tourny, pretty much everyone were using CNRs with only one exception worth mentioning, the ASCN Mega. Even the CCP staff were heavily Caldari and it was nice to see that a CNR with fuly maxed skills can tank pretty much everything indefinitely as LeMonde was doing. So if you don't think there is a slight towards Caldari/Gall races, you would be sadly mistaken. The only Amarr ships worth their weight are the curse/pilgrim but I imagine those will be nerf'ed with the nos changes as well. If CCP really wants balance, they should work those things out. With standard natural resistances against Amarr's only 2 possible damage types far exceeding the resists of the other two damage types, the balance is skewed. Break it down generally: Lasers benefits: 1. High potential damage 2. No ammo/limited constraints Lasers detriments: 1. Low RoF (even with RoF bonuses, it just means more cap usage) 2. Easily defending against with resists 3. High cap drain vs actual damage 4. Heavy PG/CPU requirements 5. Susceptable to all EW (jamming, tracking disruption, destabalization, etc) Detriments heavily outweigh the benefits. In comparison to missiles, missiles always hit, have more damage options, no cap usage, etc. This allows a raven to shield or armor tank just as effectively as Amarr tank set ups whilst still dealing out to their full damage potential. Explains why most Amarr pvp pilots are trained/training in caldari bs as they know there is little hope for Amarr ships in true pvp. As such it will be relegated to tanking spawns in belts as the Apoc has been. Maybe if the RoF bonus applied to all turret types excluding missiles would it have a chance of being useful.
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.05 10:21:00 - [71] Originally by: DarK Agreed on giving it missile hardpoints. I don't believe that there should only be 1 whorthwhile BS missile boat. Most likely it will suffer CPU issues. However, I then worry that if you give it 8 missiles combined with the resist bonus to armour it will be much better than the raven. /me looks at teir3 Caldari BS. Me says "You cannot give it 8 Turrets....... or it will be much better than the apoc" :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:29:00 - [72] Originally by: Nyxus The Typhoon is good because it gets a bonus to both missiles, guns, and has a whopping dronebay to make up for the lower damage of the split weapons system. It's a good design and implementation from Tux's team and I applaud them for it. The Abaddon shouldn't be a carbon copy though. i agree completely there. the point was that a split weapon system isnt always bad but doesnt work as nicely with lasers+launchers as it does with projectiles+launchers due to the lack of the laser-capuse bonus. the nightmare adresses that with its 3rd bonus. whats the dronebay size of a nightmare btw? Originally by: Nyxus It's actually something new, unique, and versatile. Something Amarr indisputably need. while i agree with that it would still leave the apoc (as it is now) pretty much useless once your abaddon is available. but then again thats not much of a change from the tux-abaddon.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:36:00 - [73] There are 3 Amarr ship design concepts IMO, and I think the cruisers present these perfectly: Tank -> Maller Gank -> Omen Skirmish -> Arbitrator When we look at the BS's though we have a hybrid between gank and skirmish "the Geddon", a tank "the Apoc" and now newly a hybrid between gank and tank "the Abaddon". If you ask me the geddon should be a larger arbi, apoc no change, and the Abaddon a gank ship, so Amarr cruiser concepts that are balanced and working for Amarr pilots continue to do so with their BSs.
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.05 14:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne whats the dronebay size of a nightmare btw? I believe it's 75m3. If it had a dronebay the size of a Typhoon or even a Geddon it could be something good though. As it stands right now it's just for looks. Although it does look really good. Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne while i agree with that it would still leave the apoc (as it is now) pretty much useless once your abaddon is available. but then again thats not much of a change from the tux-abaddon. Yep, the Poc will pretty much be useless. But that's not suprising since having really great capacitor doesn't really help you kill anyone, or mine better, or NPC better. The Apoc's only claim to fame was that it had 8 turrets. Now 3 other races will not only have 8 turrets, but better bonuses besides which will render it's already subpar status into something no one flies, like the old Typhoon. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.05 14:46:00 - [75] I was digging around and found a good description of the Abaddon can be taken from the Inquisitor. The Abaddon is another example of how the Amarr Imperial Navy has modeled their design to counter specific tactics employed by the other empires. The Inquisitor is a fairly standard Amarr ship in most respects, having good defenses and lacking mobility. It is more Caldari-like than most Amarr ships, however, since its arsenal consists of missile bays as well as laser turrets. It set's the stage for a missile toting Amarr BS. I was also thinking about what Udyr has said about the Apoc's uselessness post Abaddon (if it's not useless already). If we gave the Apoc the 25% Armor Resist bonus we could give the Abaddon the Inquisitor's bonus to missiles. The bonus would be to 10% EM missiles, which I don't like, but also 5% to all other missile damage, which I do like. Here is a comparison to a Raven when the Abaddon has a 5% bonus to missile damage. Abaddon with 5% bonus to missile damage vs a Raven. As you can see, it's a bit closer although not by much. Still balanced, and I honestly would like to see the 25% resist bonus go to the Apoc so that it has some use instead of consigning it to the "omfguseless" shipyard because of the cap bonus. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.05 16:23:00 - [76] Just cause Inquisitor is a missile frig doesnt mean Amarr use missiles as a primary weapon (same for gallente).. Missile boat for Amarr is just a horrible idea: Amarr are slow, lots of grid, tiny CPU, moderate drone bay but most important do primarily EM dmg. Any Amarr missile boat would have an EM dmg bonus (like the stupidly useless EM missile bonus on the Malediction), while lasers can still dish out thermal next to EM. So while generally looking Missiles > Lasers when it comes to Amarr ships Amarr laser > Amarr Missiles. The problem I see here is that Tuxford doesnt recognise the Arbitrator style as a main ship design for Amarr and is only left with tank and gank, so he creates (yet another) Amarr ship with only tank and gank (even worse is only to be limited to one side) in mind.
Linoleum	Posted - 2006.08.05 16:25:00 - [77] OMFG ! what bull**s :p really. you're talking about problem with cap and firing guns... well I've already used a gueddon with tach and it was really fun in fleet battle... by fleet battle I mean more than 70vs70 , at more than 100 KM of distance... If there is cap problem to hunt npc , because you're firing constantly , in a fleet battle, there is no more (or almost no more) cap problem... so here is the deal : with the abbandon, you should be abble to use guns to do lot's of damage... it would be just short in cap, but not TOO short, just a good chanlange. and of course you couldn't tank in the same time. the apoc or the armagueddon would not be useless then, because they would still be good for hunting npc or doing mission. your other bull** is about med / low slot for fleet battle. You say that med slot are more usefull than low slot, for fleet battle... Well , sorry but low slot are by far more usefull .. why ?? because in fleet battle, you are usualy full damage, no tanking... so you need basicaly : most of damage mod (low slot), and some plate 1600 to try to survive (low slot too) ... med slot are just for : 2 sensor booster, and 1 or 2 traching comp ... no need more. finaly , I dont understand why you are whining about the abbaddon ... first we dont have the real spec ... scnd : it would be an awnsome ship for fleet battle : really good DPS + alpha strike , for a short amount of time (but in fleet battle that's not the problem, and it would be chalanging) , and a good passive tnaking , for survive to fleet battle, with bonnus to armor resist, and low slot to fit some plate and damage mod... so plesae stop , dont say that everybody dont like the abbandon, there is a lot of people looking forward it. cya in space -------------------------------------------------- Le Duc : "Qu'est ce tu veux que j'te dise, c'est ton opinion, mec !
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.05 17:10:00 - [78] Point is that amarr does not really need another fleetship. Giving amarr a new one is like giving caldari another misslespammer-missionrunner. The tier 3 BSs were advertised to bring something new to the racial fleets. The aba is doing anything but this.
Leilani Solaris Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.05 17:50:00 - [79] Totally agree with most/all of the points you've made. Good solid analysis. /signed
Luric Vizjier The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.05 18:17:00 - [80] Vote to make Abaddon a Khanid missle spammer here! -----------------------------------------------
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.05 18:26:00 - [81] I agree with everything the OP said except for the name change. "Locust Demons" could apply to missiles just as much as drones. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.05 18:33:00 - [82] Originally by: Luric Vizjier Vote to make Abaddon a Khanid missle spammer here! I wouldnt know what that would be good for. Drones were always the secondary main weapon of Amarr if you look at their ships. I dont see a single missle ship besides the inquisitor and purifier.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.05 19:05:00 - [83] I quite like the OP's suggestions but like him I'd prefer it to be a drone boat. I fear the loser will be the Apoc both with Abaddon as is or even with the OP's suggested changes taken up. The Geddon will remain very economical to use and therefore a common sight. Not so sure about the cost/benefit of an Apoc compared with an Abaddon though... Cosmo Jericho Fraction
Stephar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.06 00:44:00 - [84] Originally by: Kunming Drones were always the secondary main weapon of Amarr if you look at their ships. I dont see a single missle ship besides the inquisitor and purifier. It's hard to call drones a true secondary weapon on Amarrian ships. Check out the drone bays: Cruiser (tier 1): Exequoror = 40m3 Osprey = 20m3 Augoror = 15m3 Scythe = 5m3 Cruiser (tier 2): Vexor = 75m3 Arbitrator = 75m3 Bellicose = 40m3 Celestis = 40m3 Omen = 15m3 Caracal = 10m3 Stabber = 5m3 Blackbird = 0m3 Cruiser (tier 3): Thorax = 50m3 Rupture = 30m3 Moa = 15m3 Maller = 0m3 Battlecruiser: Brutix = 50m3 Cyclone = 40m3 Prophecy = 25m3 Ferox = 25m3 Battleship (tier 1): Dominix = 375m3 Typhoon = 175m3 Armageddon = 125m3 Scorpion = 75m3 Battleship (tier 2): Megathron = 125m3 Tempest = 75m3 Apocalypse = 75m3 Raven = 75m3 Total average: 1) Gallente = 107.9 m3 2) Minmatar = 52.9 m3 3) Amarr = 47.1 m3 4) Caldari = 31.4 m3 Minnies have a better argument for a drone carrier than Amarrians.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.06 02:10:00 - [85] Originally by: Stephar It's hard to call drones a true secondary weapon on Amarrian ships. Check out the drone bays: while most of your number are correct they dont say much about whether or not drones can be called a secondary amarrian weapon system. in fact what size dronebay other races ships have is of no intrest to what constitutes such a secondary weapons system for amarroan ships. let me add some more info there: listing all amarrian t1 ships which have a secondary weapons system. name = dronespace, launcherslots Crucifier = 5m3, 0 Tormentor = 5m3, 0 Inquisitor = 0m3, 3 (missiles=main weapon) Augoror = 5m3, 0 Arbitrator = 75m3, 1 (drones=main weapon) Omen = 15m3, 1 Prophecy = 25m3, 1 Armageddon = 125m3, 0 Apocalypse = 75m3, 2 now as you can see almost all our ships which are actually lucky enough to have a secondary weapons system have access to some sort of dronebay. the only exception being the inquisitor which is actually our t1 missile frig. looking at the ships that have both a dronebay and launchers you will notice that they are always able to field more drones (of their class size) than launchers. as you can see i split the list into 2 parts...the first of which contains the frigs and the auguror. those are the ships which see little to no use in amarrian pvp. the inquistor isnt as bad as the others but still not the most commonly used frig when you also have the punisher and executioner at your disposal. now in the 2nd group you find our more important pvp ships. among them our drone-cruiser: the arbitrator. a ship which is not only an excellent choice for solo pvp but also an essential part of our fleets (small and medium sized ones that is...not the bs-only blobs people seem to confuse with fleets). as its a droneship drones are actually its primary weapon here and neither the 1 launcher slot nor the 2 turrets are actually of the greatest importance to its fitting. for the omen and prophecy its similar. while they can use their drones effectivly against small targets the launcher is more added flavour than an important part of the setup and often gets replaced by a nos instead. on to the geddon then. no launcher slots here but a dronebay able to hold 5x heavy drones which will add quiet a bit of damage and are certainly important to the ships overal performance. the apoc now is a ship that has quiet a few problems itself. its most distinguishing feature being its 8 turretslots (at least until the tier 3 battleships get released). as it lacks the geddons rof bonus pilots often try to make up for that by using all 8 turrets once more leaving no room for the launcher. the dronebay is smaller but still quiet useful. now i would hope we can agree than an amarrian pilot looking for pvp combat will have much more use for droneskills than missile related ones. and thus drones are propably more worthy of being called our secondary weapons system. regarding t2 ships: while we get some more missile using ships in the tech2 area we also get 2 more drone-cruisers, which once more manage to surpass many of the ships in their class. hopefully the khanid mkII project may shake things up a bit in the future but for now i dont see how one can argue that drones are not the more important secondary weapons system for amarrian pvp.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.06 02:12:00 - [86] Quote: Minnies have a better argument for a drone carrier than Amarrians. Except that the Amarr are the only race to have even a single ship with drone-related bonuses other than the Gallente. Moreover, it's very clear that missiles are the secondary weapon of the Minmatar. A fact underlined by the recent award of a missile bonus to the Typhoon if the plethora of Min ships with multiple missile points didn't make it clear enough. Your drone-bay averages calc says nothing much as it's a reflection of individual ship design and balance. The fact that the Amarr have a dedicated drone ship is a reflection of a specific design decision, somewhere along the line, to give Amarr drone technology no other race has apart from the masters themselves, the Gallente. I'm a realist though. I think the devs looked at this and couldn't work out how to satisfactorily make the Abaddon a drone BS without making it the strongest drone ship in the game and therefore toppling the Gallente from their, admittedly, proper position as fielding the strongest droner. After all, even with a weaker drone bonus than the Dominix it would inevitably be a stronger ship overall. This I think is the reason we're not getting the Abbadon as a drone ship. At the moment, I don't see the gap the Abaddon is going to fill without supplanting an existing Amarrian BS. This doesn't hugely worry me but I think there's a missed opportunity here. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.06 03:49:00 - [87] My vote is definately not with the Khandid missile spammer idea. Like every other radical Abaddon argument, it all boils down to the fact that this is our tier 3, and should represent everything that our race stands for. (Of course Caldari doesn't have that in their tier 3 but they don't need it with a ship as solid as the Raven.) I want a turret king, something that has people flocking back to Amarr. I want something to make Amarr proud, not just a makeshift Raven or Domi. Shield tank is not fitting for an Amarr tier 3 IMO. Btw OP, I like your ideas, but not the numbers. In particular, 6 missile slots and 150m3 drone bay are both innapropriate for a turret-champ IMO. Combine this with the 5 mid slots, and the Abaddon is the ship that can do everything any other BS can. It's a solid idea, but I'm not rooting for it. Like previously stated, I want a guns-blazing, hard-as-a-rock, all-around great boat to put Amarr back on the map.
Stephar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.08.06 04:10:00 - [88] Originally by: The Cosmopolite I'm a realist though. I think the devs looked at this and couldn't work out how to satisfactorily make the Abaddon a drone BS without making it the strongest drone ship in the game and therefore toppling the Gallente from their, admittedly, proper position as fielding the strongest droner. After all, even with a weaker drone bonus than the Dominix it would inevitably be a stronger ship overall. This I think is the reason we're not getting the Abbadon as a drone ship. This is probably the main reason why the Abaddon won't be made into a drone ship. You and Udyr made some excellent points about drones being a real secondary weapons platform for Amarr, and I actually proposed the following in that massive Amarr thread: Armageddon = +5% ROF, -10% energy turret cap, 8/3/8 layout, 125m3 drone bay Apocalypse = +5% tracking disruptor, +10% drone hp/dmg, 6/6/6 layout, 200m3 drone bay Abaddon = +5 armor resists, -10% energy turret cap, 8/4/8 layout, 75m3 drone bay At every major tier, the top Amarr ship has the armor resist and energy turret cap bonus. If there is a defining combination of bonuses in the Amarrian fleet, those two seem to be it. I honestly can't imagine the Abaddon being anything else. The devs obviously didn't have tier 3 in mind when they made our original two battleships. So the only reasonable solution seems to be to break the Apoc down and rework it. The 6/6/6 layout is consistent with the Arbitrator's 4/4/4 layout (666 is an Apocalyptic number anyways ), as well as the tracking disruptor bonus. And the 200m3 drone bay is decidedly inferior to the Dominix's 375m3, and would allow a full arsenal of 5 heavies, 5 mediums, and 5 lights. The Abaddon would become the new Amarrian tank, and the Apocalypse would become an excellent small group skirmisher. But I just don't think the devs will make the Abaddon into a drone carrier. It just doesn't make sense for Amarrians to have the best drone battleship... especially when none of our battleships are sporting the staple cap reduction / armor resist bonus like the Punisher, Maller, and Prophecy. But I do like Nyxus's idea of making the Abaddon into a hybrid missle/laser boat. 7 launchers if you want to tank, 8 tachs if you want to gank... just not both at the same time. It seems like a nice compromise, and what could be wrong with having a missle boat? We have dabbled in drones with the Arbitrator line, and in missles with the Khanid ships. But when you get down to it, we're a lasers & armor tanking race. Ships that deviate from this style are more anomalies than standards. We've already got our drone ship anomaly, why not a missle ship anomaly? Sounds good here.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.06 07:11:00 - [89] I think the geddon is more appropiate for the droneboat, considering both tier and hull. Gankers are higher tier than the droneboats cause the droneboats have lower PG and less slots anyway. Also I still strongly disagree against a missile-spammer.. I've been a specialized Amarr pilot for over 3 years now and still only have around 150k SP in Missiles, compared to the ~3mil SP in drones. (Alright, I speced in gallente too later on, but had 1mil in drones way before I was able to fly any gall ship)
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.06 09:02:00 - [90] Well... I don't think a Abbadon w. 6 missile slots is going to replace a typhoon for 2nd best missile spammer in the game. Sure... it might become flavor of the month... but who cares. If is damage is less than a poorly setup command ship and t2 missileammo will really crap on the ship... I don't see the problem. Drones and missiles are tertiary weapon systems to amarr. Their primary weapon system is lasers and the second is your wingmen. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats

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