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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:30:00 -
[301]
 Originally by: Khajit Smitty
Originally by: Avon
I still think the best solution is a module based one, using either lo-slots, or ship rig slot thingies.
Maybe but not a low-slot
Low-slot actually makes a lot of sense, for reasons I have given several times before.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Khajit Smitty
Minmatar
MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:43:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Avon
Low-slot actually makes a lot of sense, for reasons I have given several times before.
To be honest i would make more sense to have it as a rig slot with the upcoming patch, it avoids the "low/med/high OMFG you nerfed my armor/shield/damage" argument.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:55:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Khajit Smitty
Originally by: Avon
Low-slot actually makes a lot of sense, for reasons I have given several times before.
To be honest i would make more sense to have it as a rig slot with the upcoming patch, it avoids the "low/med/high OMFG you nerfed my armor/shield/damage" argument.
I like the rig slot idea, but it limits choice.
You can't just switch rigs (as I understand it), like you can with modules.
If I was going to use either (and I probably would for travel), I think the lo-slot version is ultimately more flexible.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.08 13:58:00 -
[304]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 08/08/2006 13:58:32
Avon,
"What would stop people setting them up just to annoy people?"
What stops ganking simply to annoy people? Oh, nothing. Simply have no flag for killing a bubble, and they are thus an economic loss if you leave them lying arround.
And no, I'm in favour of limiting what NPC corp players can do, thus providing incentives to join player corps.
And yes, we can add rig slots and make them used for instas..or we can NOT add rig slots, and add a 0km warp. The second option, since the first is a more complex way of doing the same thing is preferable.
And yes, Avon, you're PvPing either with a huge fleet or at a large disavantage. Well, most PvPers are NOT in huge fleets and dying from that disavantage isn't fun. You're promoting your usual "Good for BoB, so good for all!" agenda.
And no, low-slots sacrificed for a basic game function don't "make sense". And flexible, right, that's "cripples far more possible setups".
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:01:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
And yes, we can add rig slots and make them used for instas..or we can NOT add rig slots, and add a 0km warp. The second option, since the first is a more complex way of doing the same thing is preferable.
No, they are not the same thing.
One uses up a slot that could be used for something else, the other gives up nothing.
You have no concept of compromise.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:05:00 -
[306]
Certainly I do.
"Cripple your ship to do a basic game function" is no sort of compromise, it's a drastic and detrimental nerf, and zero change from your origional position a long time ago.
And no, there is not "anything else" which is viable. You MUST be able to onsta to do most of the basic functions of the game with any efficientcy outside your huge blobs.
And sure, you don't have the instas personally, you're only completely dependent on the people who DO have them!
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:16:00 -
[307]
Edited by: Avon on 08/08/2006 14:17:04
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Certainly I do.
"Cripple your ship to do a basic game function" is no sort of compromise, it's a drastic and detrimental nerf, and zero change from your origional position a long time ago.
And no, there is not "anything else" which is viable. You MUST be able to onsta to do most of the basic functions of the game with any efficientcy outside your huge blobs.
And sure, you don't have the instas personally, you're only completely dependent on the people who DO have them!
I certainly am not dependent on other people who do have instas.
I just point my ship at a gate, hit the MWD, and wait.
It isn't even hard.
As to 'crippling' your ship - ha!
It would no more cripple a ship than WCS, and people use them all the time.
Do not presume to comment on how I play the game if you do not know.
Ignorance is not a sound footing for an attempt to refute my claims.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Khajit Smitty
Minmatar
MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:27:00 -
[308]
Avon honestly i dont see how a low slot can be favoured more over a high slot, unless you are trying to stop the warp core spammers ?
I would rather drop a gun,nos,cloak instead of a slot in my meds/lows.
People need to look at how insta's effect the whole game, not just one aspect of the game "ie pvp" , how would life in eve be without insta's?
I for one can see how many things would change and be different.
Alliances would own much less space due to the fact that travel would not be so quick and effortless. Fuelling pos's would involve more effort and as such less spamming of them would occur, not too mention they will truly have to become group efforts. There will be more players in area's controlled by alliance space and as such raiding parties will have a greater chance of getting more kills due to this fact alone.
Fleet ops would involve an inty/covert to create a warp point so that large battleship gangs would have to use that pilot to create an insta as such.
Freighters would take 3 hours to cross 30 jumps where as currently it takes 15 minutes, this means less region-to-region trading unless devoted corporations focus on making these runs, inner-region trading would be more contested and players will look to trading further out of core empire systems to make a decent profit.
Mission runners would not be able to fly 10 jumps using insta's to farm each of their level 4 agents, well they could but profit wise it would not make sense, corporations that run missions would have to focus on specific agents as their member base would be spread out and having members travelling around to help out would not be worthwhile.
Manufacturing corporations/individuals would not be able to make goods in one systems where there are cheap mineral prices and freighter them down 30 jumps away where there is good profit as logistically time wise it would not be worthwhile. It would force them to stay put or move closer,maybe even halfway ?
Low sec and pirates,well pirates would be able to pirate (to some extent), mission runners in those systems would not be invincible as they would have to fly the 15km to dock.
Miners, well the hauler collecting the ore would be forced to fly the 15km to unload. Profits could be affected as timewise it cuts into mining time (depending on how many are mining together and the decided organization)
Im sure there are others i have missed. Sure pvp would be different maybe better maybe worse but there are other aspects to consider if they are to be kept or removed.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:42:00 -
[309]
I've seen this thread so many times in the appropriate forum.
Umm, ditch instas, allowing warping to about 1km, and fix bubbles so they pull you out of warp properly.
Bubbles for gates, WCS Vs. Scramblers for everywhere else, and attacking big slow ships as they warp away from the incoming gate rather than when they arrive at the outgoing gate FTW.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 14:51:00 -
[310]
Edited by: Avon on 08/08/2006 14:54:07
Originally by: Khajit Smitty
Avon honestly i dont see how a low slot can be favoured more over a high slot, unless you are trying to stop the warp core spammers ?
Well, it isn't just WCS really, but a whole host of low slot modules that need to be balanced with the ability to insta jump.
Example:
Cargo expanders.
Pro: Increased Cargo Capacity
Con: Decreased ship speed
The penalty, however, is completely negated by the use of insta jumps as they make ship speed meaningless.
If you make a module that allows you to warp nearer a gate anything other than a lo-slot module, then there is still no penalty for using the maximum amount of cargo expanders. There is no advantage to giving up cargo capacity for speed.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2006.08.08 18:37:00 -
[311]
Edited by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN on 08/08/2006 18:38:04
1.Remove instas for Empire
2.Keep all instas for .0 intact for people.
3.Anyone not in a empire war in 1.0 to 5.0 has the ability to warp to a gate at 0km instead of 15km but -25% to Agility or somthing.
4.Make it my solution (listed on pg 10) for .4 to .1
:-0 how does this sound guys?
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Slyviper
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Posted - 2006.08.08 21:58:00 -
[312]
Insta's only work on the out bound trip, you still have to deal with a sniper battleship or a gank gang on the other side so as far as I am concerned theres still plenty of risk especially if your in a large ship, and Haulers too me are the biggest and slowest there are. they can take over 30 seconds to align and get up to speed to warp which is why there the easiest to kill with only a volly or two.
I dont see how PvP could be thrilling as some claim when the aggressor is 200km from the gate and is completely unreachable for return fire so that's NOT PvP. griefing maybe but not PvP in any way at that range and against lightly armed ships in most cases, why? simple ive been blown up by these type of ships and setups in 0.4 sec so there there for easy noob kills and nothing else.
So going off on how insta's are bullet proof is nuts you still have to deal with the other side of that gate.
So heres my idea CCP makes it so there's no BM's within 300km of a gate that makes all ships including the snipers work for it and make it so pod's can do a emergency 1 sec random location warp in system and automaticly when there ship blows, why? simple some of the hauler and mining barge pilots have large amounts of isk invested in implants that are used to build the tech 2 ships all the pirate types want, kinda stupid to blow up the suppliers builders but they do it anyways.
Even with a random emergency warp your still with out a ship and getting to a station is still risky, I dont think the carebears, as the miner/manufactures are called would whine too bad if the pod had a better chance to survive.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:46:00 -
[313]
Avon, so you're not PvPing in any form of organised way then, and you're moving insure sace which your alliance claims and vigarously patrols. That IS relying on people with instas.
And yes, it cripples your ship. WCS are not generally mounted in threes, and they ADD something to the ship. Your modules just REPLACE a basic game function which you've ripped out. You can get away without WCS in most forms of combat. The same does not apply to your modules.
And right, so how DO you play. Explain for the audience here, this isn't guessing games online, after all. Clear up the ignorance. (Yes, that is calling your bluff, why?)
And again, you're focusing on SINGLE modules. That is not the correct way to look at them. FIRST, the is a base advantage which they add, the opportunity cost of the other modules which you could have in its place. If it is STILL overpowered, you can then add further disadvantages. And do cargo expanders need to slow a ship down? Uh, no, not really. The opportunity cost for such slow ships in not using speed BOOSTING modules is high.
And, again, there is ZERO advantage to the modules of your method, they are restoring something the VAST majority of players require. How would you like it that each BS lost one highslot for each 10 ships in the system from your gang? And you could get them back with a midslot module, 1:1. Same difference.
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN, it sounds like wardecs to grief newb corps are going up 10x or more. The mechanism needs to be consistant across all of space.
Khajit Smitty, it pushes things even more striongly to the hubs..you can run manufacturing POS in quite high sec if you make travel punishing enough to justify it.
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Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:52:00 -
[314]
The idea was you had to travel the 15km to the gate - that would usually take a few minutes at least - now you have negated that by using a unforseen exploit.
What Oveur is saying is - he doesnt mind the faster travel but he is not happy with the low level of vulnerability - so any suggestion (mayas warp to 0 etc) that doesnt increase the vulnerability time is a waste of bandwidth.
There is obviously a problem and 10 seconds one side of a gate is not sufficient to allow time to catch somebody in most cases (a fully expanded T1 Indy is not the norm in low sec / 0.0 or wars).
Avon is right, a low sec module does balance things since WCS / Nanos / Damage Mods / Expanders / PG CPU mods all go in those slots and are highly desirable.
Infinity Ziona
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
coldplasma
Killson Corp
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:54:00 -
[315]
I have an idea...
Leave insta's alone and move on. Travelling around 0.0 is inconvenient enough as it is, even with insta's. Bite the bullet and accept that insta's are apart of the game.
____________________________
See you in 0.0 kids... |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:59:00 -
[316]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 08/08/2006 23:00:03
Infinity Ziona,
An exploit is only something which has been called so by a dev or a GM, and to use one is bannable. Instas, and local, are NOT exploits. See the who posts here.
They are an unintended game mechanism, no more and on less. They are NOT exploits, they are a result of thinking outside the box. A simple removal WHEN THEY FIRST CAME ABOUT would of been entirely possible.
...
Two years later, with gameplay and ships wrapped arround them, it's not so simple. They're a core game mechanism, and their orrigion really dosn't matter anymore.
A lowsec module NERFS all ships becuase they are required to resoter a core game function. They are negative because they add nothing, all those other modules are simply useless without them.
There are multiple ways to fill Oveur's requirements, and under NO circumstances should GriefPK's given ships dropping out of warp into their optimal range. No, make the GriefPK's anchor bubbles, drop warp coils and come into range of their targets for it. Possible, but NOT easy and the onus is on the GriefPK to catch, not the target to avoid.
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Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:10:00 -
[317]
No an exploit is something that people take, use, and then abuse. There are a few exploits in EvE that the devs think are fine. That makes them no less of a exploit but rather an exploit that is allowed.
RL terms Coke is allowed to go into small towns in low income countries and pay the workers there 10c a day while draining their water supply for free. Its an obvious exploit of the people. But it is allowed.
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
Bjon
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:27:00 -
[318]
yes this is real fair, make it even easier for four battleships to pwn a destroyer/cruiser at a gate....
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:28:00 -
[319]
Again, Ziona, please read the linked post. "Exploit" is a very specific term in Eve, and on these forums. You are suggesting that everyone be banned for using instas. An exploit gets you banned. Period.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 00:17:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Avon, so you're not PvPing in any form of organised way then, and you're moving insure sace which your alliance claims and vigarously patrols. That IS relying on people with instas.
Er .. I am in Syndicate, which is not our claimed space, and I am definately not welcome there.
Why should I feel the need for instas?
Because I might get attacked at a gate?
Well, shock horror, I am in a combat ship .. it is meant for fighting.
Surely if I needed safety I would have to fit stabs because instas would only protect me on one side of the gate, right?
Do you think I have stabs fitted?
Oh, and my lo-slot module does give you something .. it gives you every insta-jump in Eve (well, 3 of them would).
What benefit are WCS if no-one is scrambling you?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.09 00:28:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Again, Ziona, please read the linked post. "Exploit" is a very specific term in Eve, and on these forums. You are suggesting that everyone be banned for using instas. An exploit gets you banned. Period.
Call me crazy but I think I'll stick of the English Language definition rather then the Maya definition. Since the English langauge is just a touch older and a lot wiser.
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2006.08.09 01:25:00 -
[322]
Edited by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN on 09/08/2006 01:27:38
Originally by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
Edited by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN on 08/08/2006 18:38:04
1.Remove instas for Empire
2.Keep all instas for .0 intact for people.
3.Anyone not in a empire war in 1.0 to 5.0 has the ability to warp to a gate at 0km instead of 15km but -25% to Agility or somthing.
4.Make it my solution (listed on pg 10) for .4 to .1
:-0 how does this sound guys?
your only response to that was (it sounds like wardecs to grief newb corps are going up 10x or more. The mechanism needs to be consistant across all of space.)
Thats the worst excuse ive heard so far, my idea makes the most sense ive seen and the best solution so far. Why dont u provide a solution if your so smart?  btw wars will happen either way
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 01:40:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
You MUST be able to insta to do most of the basic functions of the game with any efficientcy outside your huge blobs.
WHAO THERE
What in the world are you talking about? There is no task in eve that requires instas at all.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.09 01:58:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Darkrydar
Originally by: Maya Rkell
You MUST be able to insta to do most of the basic functions of the game with any efficientcy outside your huge blobs.
WHAO THERE
What in the world are you talking about? There is no task in eve that requires instas at all.
Actually, the only way to get a Revelation with a full set of max named cargo expanders ontop of a gate is to insta it there (whether proper insta or gangwarp). Just thought we might as well be really literal.
I'm not sure how exactly 8 pages have been filled on this topic. The 15 km warpin is excessive, but thousands of instas per player are an unnecessary strain on both clients and servers. Lets get these circular arguments over with and agree we need reasonably close warpin ranges (forced dropout distances a la deadspace if you try to warp in closer) and that most likely the extra heavy shipclasses could use an even lower minimum distance.
That wasn't so difficult. Nothing changes dramatically in the gameplay except for some unnecessary bookmark tedium being removed. Freighters and haulers only take marginally more time to travel (most of the risk stems from entering warp anyway, not dropping out of it), scouting is already commonplace practice and speedmod-less battleship fleets will need to rethink how they travel.
That's not exactly changing the face of eve. Having been a long-standing feature doesn't really mean any change to it has to be exotic and controversial. We're just looking at a few tweaks for massive performance boosts and better gameplay here.
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aquontium
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Posted - 2006.08.09 02:10:00 -
[325]
1. agreed.
2. tried doing a 20 hop courier mission without instas? That kills the fun of playing eve
3. sounds like you're complaining about everything that doesn't suit you.
4. not if you've scrammed them. if they've not got instas and you've not got instas, then the chances of them getting away are just as high.
5. not true in a frigate, cov ops ship, interdictor, interceptor, shuttl etc. true in a brutix, sometimes. don't you avoid gate camps?
6. maybe you should PvP sometime. it's not all about ganking at gates. In fact, most systems I go through have pirates but no ganking.
7. Where? You need a specialised setup to gate-camp solo. Nothing a cov-ops ship and a few people in the next system can't reduce to a 200m hole in the wallet. and if you're 140k's away........well, you aint picking up the cans are you!
/me puts in an offer to build L Tractor Bean II BPO.
So we get another specialised skill that *everyone* want to use, to waste time training when we could be having....yes, the FUN of playing EVE! If anything, I'd just give a 200k range to sentry guns. 0.0 was the only place it was intended to be able to pirate at the gates, and if you're scared of that, you can stay out of it. Strangely low-sec is effectively lower sec than 0-sec. You're proposing four changes when to the majority of people, none are needed.
Then again, I sell bookmarks. I do have a vested interest in this post. I've spent hundreds of mils and many hours making sure bookmarks are right, on the gate, and am beginning low-sec Station-to-Gate sets, a long, laborious proces when done right, and which involved frequent podding. Bookmarks take hours to copy (literally) for a region, They require greater knowledge of the Eve map (where you've been, where you're going) and alll they do is save you a 12.5k trip....that's 4 seconds in a speedy atron, or a minute and a half in a hauler. They also require greater presence of mind - you can't just autopilot your way from BM to BM. To me, instant bookmarks are great. They cement my reputation, give me an income stream (admittedly there's the effort that goes with it), help me avoid ganks in low-sec and 0 sec space before I get popped by a group of people you consider lame (sometimes I consider them friends til they pop me  ). Why is it a mess, or not much fun? Only because you don't like instas, aren't prepared to invest either the time to make them or the money to buy them, or have done and are frustrated by the process.
1) is the best point you have. the others however are opinion rather than fact. Indeed, they are your opinion rather than objective fact. Flamebait? I don't see what else it can be. More intelligent flamebait than average, but if you have to start your first sentence with a disclaimer, you know you're not proposing a solution to which a good majority of a community would agree.
regards,
aquontium
Forth Circle CEO and Purveyor of High Quality Bookmarks
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.09 02:14:00 -
[326]
Avon,
So your playstyle is what? I can only deduce "game camping from range" from your post, since that is the only form of PvP which does not require manouverability. If I'm wrong, again, clarify. Explain. In full. Don't make people drag details out of you. Or stop USING those details to bash others with.
And no, it RESTORES the function you want to rip from core code. That is not an advantage.
Infinity Ziona, it is not my definition. It is the devs. If you read the post, you'd understand not to use the term. The devs use of language > your use of language.
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN, no, it is not "the worst excuse", is a reality which would come about if you introduced the idea. How would you deal with this? That you consider your own idea to "make sense" does not in any way exclude issues with it which need considering. And no, I'm not here to fix problems in your own ideas for you.
And yes, there WILL be wars. But making all the newbie targets pop out 15km from the gate for ready ganking is something else than today, and a lot of not-so-nice people WILL take advantage of it.
Darkrydar, yes, you in your huge alliance with blobs and alt scouts can function fine. Go back and read the comments from small corp and younger players in this thread. This is hardly just my view. Instas are not "required", no, but they VERY much "make viable" drastic swathes of gameplay for a lot of Eve players.
Testicular Testes, let's not agree. I don't see any reason why it should vary across ship class. And if you're talking at dropping ships outside insta range, then YES you'be just raised the ganks by a dramatic factor, and made those ganks come with zero active effort to actually stop the ships.
That is a drastic nerf, and the camped gates become a slaughterground...and you can BET that pirates and alliances will flock to the chokepoints to take advantage (it makes sense, after all). It's not a tweak, it's a rapid empying of 0.0 and the closing of many routes through 0.4 for non-blobs, with drastic consequences for many playstyles and raising travel times for a lot of travel.
That a change is "small" (and any change to this sort of game system is hardly "small") hardly excludes it from being dramatic.
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Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.09 02:57:00 -
[327]
Maya if the dev team came to my house with signs redefining the definition of exploit and picketed for a week I still would not agree. An exploit is a clearly defined term that is not going to be redefined by anyone.
Its an exploit of mechanics to use instas, its an exploit of mechanics to log off in combat, its an exploit of mechanics to log on trap and its an exploit of mechanics to gank in high sec - none of those are bannable but they are all still exploiting the game mechanics in ways that were never intended by the developers when they implemented those mechanics.
Its stupid to even argue over this since its so clearly obvious.
However, if Oveur gives me a trillion isk and my own 3000 bot Angel Fleet alliance I might reconsider.
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.09 03:52:00 -
[328]
Low slot is totally unacceptable.
Try flying a Rook...
It's just like saying such a 'travel module' should be high slot.
Cerberus, Rook and many other ships certainly would wellcome that addition.
So... 3 versions of the module, for high mid and low, all doing the same thing.
____________________
Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings?
Quillan Rage > Iron ships |
Infinity Ziona
Space Elves of Ragnoroth
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Posted - 2006.08.09 04:06:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Sorja
Low slot is totally unacceptable.
Try flying a Rook...
It's just like saying such a 'travel module' should be high slot.
Cerberus, Rook and many other ships certainly would wellcome that addition.
So... 3 versions of the module, for high mid and low, all doing the same thing.
Like WCS are totally unacceptable in lowslots?
'The alliance should not be a solo contentmobile' - Albert Einstein |
Ed Gein
Corsets and Carebears
Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.08.09 04:10:00 -
[330]
Why not just remove them and see what happens? Everyone is trying to find some replacement, but why? The whole reason ccp made you only to be able to warp to a gate at 15km was because they never intended you to be able to warp to a gate at 0km. We should just remove them for a week and see what happens. If the sky starts to fall and everyone gets wtfpwned then do a rollback on the patch.
Also Maya, dear lord, how do you ***** the forums so hardcore? Its hard to take someone seriously that also thinks inteceptors (most notably the claw) should not fit a warp scrambler, period. 
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