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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.10.08 23:31:00 -
[1]
In light of recent events, I would like to know what other people think about scamming and corp theft.
Personally i feel it is loathsome, but it is part of what makes eve far superior to other MMORPGs.
Having to be on you're guard against dishonest people who are trying to scam you, or earn your trust and then rob you blind, adds another layer to the depth of the game.
It goes right along with the ability to attack anyone at anytime. If you want to kill someone, you don't have to declare yourself hostile, you don't have to challenge them and wait for them to accept it. You can just flat out attack.
I guess my point is that i believe that high risk equals high reward in terms of gaming experience. And scamming and corp theft just adds another level of risk. It makes the game more challenging, and serves as one of eve's strengths not one of its weaknesses. _________________ "For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Goldar Hektu
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Posted - 2003.10.08 23:37:00 -
[2]
Agree. Makes it much more realistic. Your 150mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Serpentis Drug Baron, wrecking for 192.8 damage. |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.10.08 23:40:00 -
[3]
It adds realism, but it also poses a huge problem to players who are entering the game "alone" - and have to find other players to join up with.
After all, regardless of how trustworthy a person seems, can you really ever trust anyone you meet on the net completely?
The threat of corp theft means only two things: 1) CEOs and Corporations don't trust new members. 2) New members can't trust corporations, and therefore don't contribute as much as they might otherwise.
What are the benefits? No tangible ones I can see, except perhaps the opportunity to steal things you didn't earn with zero effort.
Nah, I think this needs to be stopped.
Veruna Caseti Ishukone |
Cruise
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Posted - 2003.10.08 23:53:00 -
[4]
I don't believe stopping it's a viable answer. I think adding features to make things more 'interesting' might help offset some of the frustration.
As I've noted time and time again on forum posts the 'perp' seems to be an Alt more times than not. That's where a part of the problem stems.
If some corporate spy were to infiltrate a major corporation to wreak havoc or steal company secrets it would be considered a part of everyday life. A sad one and perhaps a very seedy one but something people will say happens.
If that same corporate spy were to get a lackey to do his dirty work and that lackey had miraculously turned up out of the blue one day, knew every single thing about a corporation that the spy knew, within a short time robbed them blind, gave every last stinking penny to the spy and then disappeared forever without a single trace, that would be much harder to accept.
In the case of the game's present setup you can't trace the owner of the Alt back. The guy sets you up, scr*ws you royally, and you have little to no way of knowing who actually pulled that off. I think the idea of giving the CEO a means of gaining that sort of information - whether it be via some sort of black market contact or a view screen that details the Alt's primary - is a better way of bringing balance to the issue.
------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.09 00:07:00 -
[5]
It's easy to earn someones trust in a game, just say the right things for whatever time it takes then do the wrong thing, there's no morals attached since it's only a game and being only a game there is no way for the other players to really get to know what you're really like as they do not interact with you outside the game.
Frankly I can't see what it's adding but another reason why people quit the game.
Convert Stations
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.10.09 00:09:00 -
[6]
Sorry, there is no real-world equivalent to the kind of ruin a single person can bring down upon an entire corporation in EVE.
Making off with a trade secret, or maybe some equipment - it might put a dent in some smaller corporations, but most modern day conglomerates wouldn't bat more than a few eyelashes.
In EVE it's possible for a single person to literally ruin a corporation in one fell swoop by removing their ability to produce anything ever again.
So the solution is nobody but the CEO ever has access to coporate funds. Well, this is hardly a "solution" - the capabilities are there to give other people limited access, but they are obviously not complete - as shown in Heff's case. Someone without privleged access was still able to make off with the corporations most prized assets.
So what are some solutions?
How about everyone can see the altnerates of people in their corporation?
How about the ability to mark items (including blueprints) as corporation property. Removing corp property from the possession of the corporation or one of its members would require an approval of more than one character, perhaps a corp-wide vote on certain items.
Do not alow the CEO to be able to "liquidate" his corporation. Modern day CEOs could do no such thing, they might step down with a nice paycheck, but they can't sack the worldwide workforce and make off with every penny the corporation is worth or has ever made...
Plenty of others are possible to make this system more complete, useful and help build stronger more tightly knight corporations.
Veruna Caseti Ishukone |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.09 00:54:00 -
[7]
Quote: Sorry, there is no real-world equivalent to the kind of ruin a single person can bring down upon an entire corporation in EVE.
Depends...We haven't seen the entire fallout of the HalfLife 2 code theft yet
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.09 00:59:00 -
[8]
I think Valve has the code still.
The closest similar rip-off I come to think of is Windows but then again Apple had other things to fall back upon, in EVE a blueprint is the lot so similarities to the real world are void.
I still can't believe people are actually condoning terminal actions such as these, if I were to lose battleship blueprints or prints of similar worth due to fraud, against which there is no real protection, you better believe I'll terminate my account.
Convert Stations
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Cruise
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Posted - 2003.10.09 01:04:00 -
[9]
Veruna, I'm aware that the reference to 'real life' corporate espionage and underhanded acts MAY not correllate as well, however there are some real world examples of the few taking down the many/mighty. Enron would of course come to mind.
I don't want to belittle the comments or the opinions of others on this subject, I simply believe that providing an in-game means of tracking corporate thieves would be a viable answer to the present dilemma. Don't take away the corporate thief, just track 'em down and work on getting a little 'justice'.
------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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Thaos
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Posted - 2003.10.09 02:25:00 -
[10]
Scamers exist no matter waht real life eve life every game life. ok so corporate espionage is active in real life whatever, if someone steals a trade secret the original company still has access to there trade secret. if a eve scammer steals a BP the stolen BP is gone and there is nothing that the affected corp can do about it. no way to track it, no security log, no spy cams, nothing. If you want your corporation to work and succeed you have to form one with peoples you know in real life, peoples who won't screw their bestest buds, so that you and your friends can found and grow a corp to monster proportions >8D Huh what?! I don't even play this game anymore I just sit around and chat and train skillz. yeah whatever :P |
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Goldar Hektu
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Posted - 2003.10.10 07:44:00 -
[11]
The possibility of corporate theft does offer some advantages.
It is a drawback to starting a corporation, and hence, a benefit to freelancers. Noone touches my BPs but me. This balances the two strategies somewhat. Being in a corp has very obvious advantages. There should be drawbacks as well.
It provides a good reason for corps not to flood the newb channels looking for hauler slaves. That hauler slave might later decide to screw the corp later, for not getting treated well.
Look at the box. Were you promised a nice happy friendly little game? That's not how I read it, and it's not the game I wanted to play. Your 150mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Serpentis Drug Baron, wrecking for 192.8 damage. |
Jolo
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Posted - 2003.10.10 08:29:00 -
[12]
I think corp thieving is stupid and should be in this game the way it is. It's too easy to take stuff then take off without a trace.
If i go to a bank and rob it blind, I might get away, but the cameras will see me.
EVE has no tracking, you can't see who took what, which is so stupid. Without tracking I feel corp thieving is almost an exploit. In the end you basically have to take all security rights away from everyone. And in a small corp that makes it almost impossible to function because someone has to be on 24/7 to hand out items. ---------------------------------------
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Babye Cakes
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Posted - 2003.10.10 08:32:00 -
[13]
the ceos have the power weather to give the people the power to take. they shouldnt be so kind and trusting. i know i wouldnt
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/denthoss/WHat.jpg |
Jolo
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Posted - 2003.10.10 08:35:00 -
[14]
Quote: the ceos have the power weather to give the people the power to take. they shouldnt be so kind and trusting. i know i wouldnt
True, but my point is this: To function asa corp, you put stuff in hanger and have high up's take it out. In a small corp though, you maybe have like 1-2 high players and then newbies. The high players can't be on 24/7. So it would be easier to open up the hangers and just check a log of who took what. ---------------------------------------
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Babye Cakes
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Posted - 2003.10.10 08:38:00 -
[15]
if there was a log and someone took something and sold it. then you would have to get ccp to fine the person isk for that item. that would be a good idea. to allow the ceos of a corp fine a person for there stuff or isk for the items they steal.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/denthoss/WHat.jpg |
Qandor
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Posted - 2003.10.10 08:59:00 -
[16]
Corp thefts and scams add nothing to the game in my opinion. Condoning them as a part of interesting game play is a ridiculous concept. It does nothing for the playerbase, save the scammers and who the hell needs them anyway. It does nothing for CCP because people quit over it.
It all sounds fine and dandy in the abstract. Cool you can loot corporations or you can rip some poor soul off for all he has. It is very cool until it happens to you or happens to your corp, then the cool factor wears off real quick. Hell you might as well condone account hacking, it boils down to the same thing.
EVE is not a closed system. People are not forced to stay in the EVE world and deal with theft and quite frankly the game doesn't provide the tools to deal with it anyway. Why provide more reasons for folks to leave. Last I looked there wasn't exactly a waiting list to sign up for the game.
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Babye Cakes
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Posted - 2003.10.10 09:12:00 -
[17]
eve is like the airline i work for. they shaft you over and over again until you quit. i just wonder when the people at ccp will take this and fix it. but this is still beta so i expect them to change a lot when they get all the bugs out..... hopefuly
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/denthoss/WHat.jpg |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.10.10 09:42:00 -
[18]
CCP say that corp theft is part of the game. Fine. But until CEO's can trace items and alts there should be NO PLACE in EVE for this. It's like saying theft is part of RL but not allowing ppl to know who stole items EVEN when the police KNOW whodunnit. Then the police say hmm tough you'll never know and you cannot trace your stuff... Now get mining..
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.10.10 11:17:00 -
[19]
There even isn't any RP ingame result, like having your sec rating dropped to -5.0 by SCC or CONCORD. --- soonÖ |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.10.10 11:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 10/10/2003 11:52:30
Quote: Hell you might as well condone account hacking, it boils down to the same thing.
I don't appreciate this statement. To imply that i condone account hacking or any kind of exploiting i take as an insult to my integrity.
The element corp theft and scamming adds to the game is being able to read people simply by knowing them online. Who do you pick for friends?
To suggest that it is impossible to tell if someone is a corp theif or not is terribly close minded. As a CEO or director it is your responsibility to weed out those that would walk off with everything. It forces you to balance asset security with member welfare and contentment. If you are keeping your assets in your own hanger and don't allow anyone to build anything, your corp members will feel like you don't trust them, become discontent and leave. If you give everyone too much access, then someone will walk off with all your assets.
Ultimately the CEOs job is to maintain the highest level of security possible while keeping the members happy. There are any number of ways to do this. The balancing act takes mad skills and is part of what makes the job of a CEO the most difficult position in the game, as it should be.
That is with regards to corp theft. Scamming is entirly different. From all the instances of scamming i have heard of, it is generally a result of the scammed player overlooking something or failing to be thorough. ie: buying an already expired BPC, or not taking collateral during a BYOM deal. Sorry, if you get scammed in this way its your own lack of game savy. It seperates the skilled players from the unskilled IMO. _________________ "For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.10.10 11:54:00 -
[21]
Allowing a CEO to trace who robbed the corps assets is implementable.
-Allow the CEO to mark some items as "Property of corp XYZ". -Allow him, and also security officer for instance, to check whenever an item is used or not, and who got it and where. This should be saved in a log accessible to every member if necessary, such item being the corp property and being marked like that. -The CEO should be able to put a bounty on the thief -Item remains marked as property of the corp, but can be used like a normal item. -A skill can be added to social skill. Name it "Investigation", allowing to find out your stole items through agents in the Eve's universe.
These additionnal stuff change : -Corporate thiefs : still allowing thiefing, can be traced and his mates/alt identified and punished. -Allow a better control on corporation, allowing more people to use corporation stuff as it is easily trackable, therefore increasing confidence in noobs -Add a new skill that can be used for other purpose (investigation can also help finding peoples through agents) -Add new deversified missions to agents, that include PvP (better than PvN)
This is an idea...Feel free to comment on that. But I think that can be helpfull. I post it too in the Eve Idea lab so it can be checked (maybe) by Devs/GM.
I post the link in this message when topic is ready for comments.
(\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
Needo
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Posted - 2003.10.10 12:04:00 -
[22]
The REAL difference between EVE and real life is that in real life you are responsible for your actions and may very well end up in jail. There you have your risk vs. reward! In EVE you just have to restart your alt char, that is where the REAL problem lies. Your main character is untouchable...
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You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________ |
Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.10.10 12:19:00 -
[23]
Posted something in the Eve Idea Lab regarding Thiefs... Corporate Thiefs possible solution
Feel free to comment.
(\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.10.10 12:38:00 -
[24]
Edited by: EvilEric on 10/10/2003 12:43:54 What do we need... Tracing of thieves and asstes. When do we need it.... two months ago.
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