So long as it stays on the test server I don't mind. Keep it off tranq though, arenas always kill PvP outside of them in every game they are added to.

I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.

adding instances is not a sandbox, that is a theme park.

In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.

This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.

So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?

As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.

The unable to warp to from outside is what makes it WRONG in eve. It breaks everythign eve is about :(

I played SWG when they added arenas, I saw all the PvP outside of it dry up in a matter of weeks. The same will happen here. This isn't about us stopping you from doing something you want to do in game its about stopping something that will massively damage the game in the long run.

We already have ways of setting up 1v1 matches in the duel systems, go use that.

baltec could give you his API if he wanted, but you cannot allow him to gank you inside dojo.
Do you see a difference? One is a player choice to do something or not, another is invisible wall of themepark mechanics.

Baltec is describing why this idea is un-EVElike. In EVe, you are supposed to be able to back stab, to no honor agreements and such. An EVE player is supposed to always be in fear of such an occurrence while in space. This DoJo thing doesn't allow that by design, that makes the design bad on it's face.

No if you could challenge someone to a Dojo dual, get them in a ship in this unscannable pocket, the reinforce your own dojo yourself with alts and that somehow LOCKS the opponent in that pocket for 5 minutes (that even logging off can't fix) as you yourself log of, THAT would be EVE-like lol.

This fair and uninterruptible fight BS doesn't belong in this game. I say that as someone who doesn't care one way or another for pvp.

So its not sandbox then is it?

We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).

You keep on going on about how we shouldn't stop you from doing what you want in the sandbox yet you seem fine with removing our sandbox.

This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.

Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.

I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.

The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else.

This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.

I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.

you may have slightly missed the point.

world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added.

eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them.

Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.

look at low sec, low sec is essentially what a pvp server is on wow. an area of space where you can attack anyone on the "other team" (defined in eve as, anyone that isn't you) for no incentive.

so no, it isn't a flawed logic.

You realize it's childish to hide behind such an argument on a grown folks forum right?

No one cares what you do. This isn't about you anyways. it's about not wanting the developer of this game to violate one of the games core (and founding) principles for any reason some of us like EVE and want it's core to remain intact even as it evolves (as any game must).

I can destroy your target market, and thus the ability for you to profit from it. There is no game mechanic that protects you from this. That is the trading equivalent of ganking someone.

Careful throwing that 'logic' word around when you don't know what it means.

You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.

Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).

AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.

Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.

These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.

You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense.

All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.

No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started.

Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work.

And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp.

As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stupid, but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answer to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L).

Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....

Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it.

There you go using that word again.

One day you'll figure out what it means, and you'll probably stop posting.

cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'.

You still don't grasp that this game is one in which while you are undocked and in space shooting at another ship you are open to attack from other ships. This idea flies in the face of this core aspect of the game and reduces options that I want to take.

It's a fact that you don't know what logic is. You keep posting all the proof I need to back my arguments with every reply.

allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp".

The same reason why Tech3s become scannable is the reason why these "unscannable deadspace pockets" should not exist.

We do have both right now. You can run 1v1s and I can backstab you and vice versa. This removes my option to backstab you (and adds a bunch of underhand uses a few of which I pointed out)

What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?".

EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game.

We cannot gank them because;



Just because something requires effort on your behalf does not mean I should have my gameplay negetivly impacted.

Wow I mean really? Could you think of a more clever way to suck all the fun out of solo pvp?

That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.

Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :

-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)

-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)

-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)

As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.

Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.

Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.

Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.

As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight.

The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. All you are doing is proving my point that people prefer to use arenas over having to go out and look for a fight and take bigger risks of things going wrong for them.

PvP is PvP. Having fewer targets around is bad for solo player and blobber alike.

Which means the wider world PvP is being hurt.

bye bye free pvp eve.
bye bye pirates,
bye bye solo pvp,
bye nullsecs,
bye bye pvp,
bye bye eve.

go to cosmic WOW arenas

HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and....can I destroy this structure?

Can CCP please stop making changes to EVE Online? You are doing a horrible job and ruining this game!!!!!

If i wanted to play world of warcraft arenas I wouldnt play this eve online. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US???

STTTTOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Indeed. I can't even imagine EVE making such horrible thing.
But I don't dislike it at all... Let me explain something.

EVE is a sandbox. You can do whatever you want in the game. Most of "fun" made by players and consumed by players. This is what I love in EVE and this is why I'm playing EVE.
If you want 1v1 arena - go ahead and MAKE IT!! Become the central leader of all psyhopaths! Create a corp or even alliance with fabulous name like "Gladiator Arena" or "Fight club", pick a system, recrute some guards to controll the process, organize a tournament, make rules, take bets, connect Twitch.tv and stream the fights, et cetera... It's not easy, but it is possible. Game resources allows you to do so.
That is something I would like to see. Maybe I'd be part of the team, maybe i'd make bets or even attack it in the middle of a duel for lulz. This is fun.
And this Dojo feature is just ruining the game concept. "Duel" system is enough. You can stop now.

Pardon my bad english. I rarely post, especially on english forum, but this time i just cant stay silent.
If I didnt post
I
will
feel
guilty.

so this is how EVE dies... to thunderous applause.

That's the reason why I'm very sceptical as well. If this hits TQ, it will get even harder to find solo fights outside of it. And despite my offgrid boosting hate, I'm not interested at all in any kind of controlled environment fights.

+1

Bolded the truth here..

No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash?

Sea Change

I'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters.

They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game.

Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.

There should never be anything close to an enforced fair fight in EVE outside of events like the AT and NEO. That belongs in other games like LoL or tanks.

Funny, using the word logical fallacy. You've established a predictable pattern of oversimplifying and/or exaggerating an argument of the opposition, and then comparing it to the sentiment of "agree with me or your dumb" or some variation to similar effect. Funnier still, in almost every post you wrote the words "logical fallacy" you engage in one yourself.

Be that as it may, AT/NEO style structured combat isn't part of the gameplay, it never has been.

And you do not speak for the solo community. As someone who has enjoyed the fruits of solo pvp for a few years I can say from experience you never have to roam 1-4 hours for a fight. Solo pvp has been quite alive.

Edit: By solo, i mean single account pvp

You're like a simplicity bot. Why do you think anyone cares about how you play? Who exactly do you think you are that anyone would care.

You do have a platform, it's called EVE, it's the same platform the rest of us have. What stops "your community" from going to any of the thousands of empty systems and soloing each other to your hearts content? No one needs to alter EVE's flying in space concept to make a tournament.

Hopefully the fine people at CCP (and our CSM reps) will wise up and let this prototype (as it's currently imagined) hit the scrap heap (like most prototypes do) so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.

Dojos 'll kill this sandpit like game. You wouldn't need to undock. Wow arenas, are u seriously?

Show me where I said, Fun for EVERYONE. I said "fun for people", yet in your zeal to watch CCP violate their own principles you lost the ability to read English.

I'm simply saying (and I'll type slow so yo can understand this time...) that CCP doesn't need to introduce things that go counter to their clearly established game concept to eveole and grow the game. They did that with incarna (seeking to take EVE from "spaceship game" to "more in depth sci-fi simulation") and overall that was a mistake.

For 12 years, EVE Online has had as a FACT the principle that ANY ship in space that was not cloaked and was not a newb piloted ship in a noob system (or in the SOE Arc) could be tracked down and attacked.

These Dojos add a new exception, they say "you can be in space in a special deadspace pocket that no one else can get to and the worst thing you have to worry about is someone shooting your dojo". That's wrong for this game, BASED ON it's 1st 12 years of existence and it's developers constantly saying that you should not be safe unless docked or cloaked.

New exceptions should not be added to a games rules except in special circumstances (like how the "no noobs getting shot in nob systems came about). Exceptions should NEVER come from mere content additions if one wants to maintain the integrity of their own development process.

you were saying...

...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?

Then you are doing it wrong dear chap.

New since early 2007.

It the AT is to be the bench mark, then expand the AT to let folk have 'one versus one' fights during the tournament.

and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle

Hold on, hold on.

There is going to be a structure in wide open space which is full of ships which are not protected by a timer of any shape or form?

If yes, then restrict them to player corps like the good CCP you are.
If no, then don't implement the thing at all.

Why are you argueing with a troll who hides behind an npc alt?

He just wants you to fill the pages anyway.

Now I have to look through this mess.......

vv so because people were wrong before, they are wrong now? really?

read my posts , at no point have i stated anything other than unease at the notion of this being implemented as is outside of a tourney.

you could a least be aware of my opinion before declaring it invalid.

I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.

There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.

To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.

Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.

And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.

For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.

Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.

*points at Veers*

Still processing the changes .............

A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.

A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1.

Well, first of all, if you can still use an off grid booster then the point of this... thing... is entirely lost.

And if they have finally figured a way to make sure you can't, then why not just force boosts to be on grid in the first place across the board, and fix this so long broken aspect of the game?

Second, I fail to see what this is actually supposed to do, besides putting up "you can't touch me" walls fraught with potential explotative abuse, some of which has already been detailed in this thread.

its a conceptual stage tool set for running tourney matches currently on duality,
the bears seem to think this means we will get arena style pvp and seem ecstatic,
everyone els is a little nervous about its implementation(and rightly so) as if its introduced badly i.e. outside of a tourney setting , it could have pretty "strong" effects on the game,

A concept that as a CSM (ie those we elected to encourage CCP to stay true to the Idea called "EVE Online" because of a history of CCP swirving a little bit) you probably should have voiced concerns about. That you haven't and think that unprobable ships in space on tranquility (the current iteration of the prototype and it's concept that this thread suggest could become a reality on tranq) is a good idea is what's concerning.

If you cannot judge the merit of certain feature without forum (player) input, then you're useless, and so is the CSM.

Or did you forget what the CSM is for?

Hint: it's not to damage control CCP on the forums mumbling "we'll, maybe they won't implement it".

Next stop: The CSM and CCP will "gauge the overall reaction" regarding plex-ammo! It's awesome, you load your launcher with PLEX, and one-shot any ship in game.

There isn't, the test server has worked fine for that for a while now.

Heh, no, not true. Pretty sure very few people have asked to have their sandbox broken with instanced, WoW style PvP matches. People want more solo fights, yes. As in out in the actual game, without things like off grid boosts ruining it before it begins.

Buff lowsec, obviously. And nerf highsec, the population distribution is at fault here, and highsec being skewed in risk/reward is the cause of that.

Such a thing is blatantly against anything that even is going to pretend to be a sandbox game, after all.

This and it comes from both sides...

Suggest a war dec mechanic that might increase people's willingness to undock and you'll be accused of wanting "Cheap gank kills" and wanting risk free indy corp farming.

Suggest a mechanic that might get more people to TRY PVPing in a controlled environment - "Screw off you're ruining the sandbox"

Personally I'm tired of it because I want a better GAME with people UNDOCKING. The ability to run mini PVP tournaments would be such a boon for content creators I'm stunned that there is there are this many tears over the mockup. How many motivated people could do more with a few toys to play with in the sandbox? I think this is a situation where the good of the game needs to be given a little priority over ideological sandbox purity.

actually you have been talking much more than anyone else
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1

Same person for dojos over and over. Clearly using an alt, repeating himself...
Because clearly if you say it enough, its true right?
Not that you might argue or discuss any points raised regarding the ideals of the feature when compared to the rest of the game and its extensive history.

Leading argument being those against the idea are irrelevant... and of course""

Yet your justification is your style of play and those you associate with would benefit so its better? Well done.

Flawless logic, no fallacies to be found.

When i'm on my alt (in a null alliance) in a fleet fight , I'm pvping.

Who needs to post with alts when with every post you make yourself and your side look foolish to the point where CCP guys are all like "if this guy likes it, maybe we should reconsider" lol.

The whole idea is silly though, some people need to think that people who disagree with them are 'up to something'. They can't accept the idea that they could be wrong or that people disagree because they care about EVE Online.

You know it's an awesome feature when you have to accuse everyone opposed of logical fallacies, instead of disproving their arguments against.

That, or this is a forum for english teachers, and not EVE pilots =P

I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.

New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety?

EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players.

I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye.

Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub.

If there are a larger number of people than the blobbers looking for fair fights, what's stopping them from getting together and counter-blobbing?

pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.

Sad really.

You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears?

Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo?
Prevent neutral logi?

Just first thoughts.

All the talk about scannable dojo, reinforce timer, etc... If only one of you would log in on Duality, he/she would see that the "Dojo" is just a mobile depot with the dojo feature attatched to it. It's a prototype of the dojo function. There actualley are exactly zero facts about its stats. It's a freakin mobile depot with huge cargo. Really people.. so mutch shittalk and anger about nothing. But don't let facts interrupt your discussion. (BTW. This is the first real fact since page 32)

Ok, soo... you couldn't have a ref/organizing party organizing a tourney in a test server under pre dojo conditions?

Require all participants to join the organizing corp in the test server, the ceo or others with sufficient rights to look through the assets of the participants ensuring a compliance with fits. Have them set their clone to the station of the event at the time there of, have them undock and pod them. Have refs/organizers with a few long range alpha ships configured to blap at whatever exceeds given boundary the organizers set (eg: sit in the middle, whack anything to exceed 100km). And simply disqualify any that break the rules of underhanded logi or OGB's. If you see someone whos not supposed to be there simply pause the match or run another one. It would be up to the organizers to pick a system remote enough to be unlikely to bump into. Any players you find that consistantly screw with the tourney can be handled by your community with a simple black list.

This example has a way of dealing with:
+OGB's
+Neutral logi
+implant verification
+boundary violations
+module verification
+ship verification

As I said, this would be done on a test server not requiring the actual investment in ships and modules, and under more lab like conditions. other players can still put forth the effort to screw with you if they like, but without real killmails and no purposeful repercussions aside from harvesting frustration, there are more meaningful ways of screwing with folk in the live server where loss matters.

The organizers could set up what ever incentive policy they like to attract participants and fund their operations. Not to mention stream for spectators to enjoy.

If you put half as much effort into trying to solve the situation your self as you do backing a mechanic to do if for you with less options, you could have done something like this long ago. Especially since you speak for so much of the community and have been longing for this content for years. So please, explain how you could not attempt a totally emergent tournament offering complete player control.

Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for?

Because the purpose of nullsec was always fair fights right. Once again you depart down the road of attempting to discredit any possible opposition by injecting the ideas of industry UI and such. In fact you are the only one to mention industry UI and you make comments on relevance?

Face the fact that if you wanted this type of gameplay so bad there was absolutely nothing stopping you from doing something to generate it.
You stopped you from creating this content as you mentioned years ago.

They stopped listening to us with incarna too, that worked well.

Once again your injecting your own suppositions onto others

logical fallacy

Edit: For the record:
I have no opinion on Industy UI
I support changes to sov null

As of right now, there are 106 pilots in singularity. Crazy thought of how hard it is to secure empty systems

Noone is forcing you to organize a tourney, you and others would be imposing this on yourselves, for something you want. Kinda like how everyone else works for things in eve.

Non of these generate a deadspace pocket unable to be warped to, or teleport you to them. Non of these proposals are contrary to the ability for you to be a target of an unbalanced fight. My example simply invalidates the "need" for such a system because we have clearly established it is not a function of weather these tournaments could be established or not, that they are not worth it for those interested to do it.

I support this as long as the deployable is destructible without a criminal flag in highsec.

Those who are complaining that this is contrary to the spirit of EVE should also think about B0TLRD. These dojos are basically highsec thunderdomes which, in principle, are exactly what your glorious leaders have chosen to inflict on the game at a much larger scale. Go do something about that if you truly care about the spirit of EVE.

I hope this is a joke.
CCP realy want add arenas in SANDBOX?
With no outside effect?!

So tell me plz, why ppl should fly at 0sec after this change?
Here world of space ship come... Button "to battle" become reality.

CCP if you like sandbox, dont ruin it with arenas and battlegrounds!

Terrible. Scrap it.

If these ever hit TQ, they should be for Corp/Alliance tournaments only and be on a semi-annual distribution schedule.
Using the same restrictions as alliance logos, should cost about 5 plex and last one week.

Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...

please not on TQ.

Arenas? Are you seriously? When you split eve cluster to different instances?
Also you need to remove space travels and make button "Fight" like in world of tanks.

Dear Bamboozled, you might try to respect the fact that many of the folk posting in this thread simply do not like the idea of special snowflakepvp arenas on TQ.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but simply spamming this thread is not best way to support your support for special snow flake pvp arenas.

Keep them on SiSi or a new special snow flake pvp arena server and all will be fine.

AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches.

Keep it on SiSi and there is no problem.

Big leagues, little leagues, middle leagues, so long as it never comes to TQ, have fun.

Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.

No MMO has ever managed to add arena PvP and not have it have a disastrous effect upon the wider world PvP. The reason why many are very anti arena is because we have been through all of this before.

Yea you did no such thing and throwing around phases such as "logical fallacies" does nothing to back up your argument. Its a very simple questions that is easily answered, the fact that you cannot just shows that you are just wasting everyone's time.

Factual data that disprove your post : http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/caldari-championships-the-first-day/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLsZPl9lYIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5yIRU7-794

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4057108

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373886

And more...

Yes, but you see, a dojo doesn't provide "tears" or provide any form of sick entertainment for these folks, so it's not acceptable.

You notice that was changed right?

The first link was to an event I believe was run by CCP in space was cannot access, inwhich case they teleported people there. These things are not available to anyone other than CCP. If not then it took place in space in which I could have attacked them at any point.

The other links all involve areas in which I can interact with them against their will while they PvP. You have provided no evidence to back up your claim.

This seems to be a case of either you trolling or you not understanding what others are sying.

When we talk about consensual PvP we are not talking about what two people decide we are talking about the the whole game. Consensual PvP is when there are mechanics in place that stops others from interacting with you while you run your 1v1. EVE has never has such a mechanic in it before and it is this mechanic that people are against. We don't care if you want to organise a 1v1 with someone we just care about a mechanic being put in place that stops us from interacting with you while you are doing it.

The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.

Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.

no its the difference between rules and no rules, fair fights and one sided fights.

one requires sheer piloting skills, the other takes that as well as awareness of environments and what your up against.

they are both completely different and one doesnt prepare you for the other at all except reminding you to overheat apparently.

calm yourself.

on TQ...

everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.

The goal is for an arena, you can have that without taking away one of the core selling points of EVE from people.

the joke is the idea that this will teach ppl to fight in the sandbox and you thinking that the skills are completely transferable.

who said skills are irrelevant? What im saying is that a skill disadvantage can be mitigated. And thats not a bad thing. PvP in the sandbox is about more than the 5 minutes you spend shooting eachother.

your only thinking on a tactical level and EVE is much more than that.

Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...

back pedaling is all yours

'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"

this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.

if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party.

you need to read my posts again. not at any point did i say pilot skill is irrelevant. it was you that tried to put those words in my mouth.

i implied that these dojo's would be as useful for PvP training as karate would be for riots. some of that karate might be useful on a tactical level, but not really where it matters.

/de-rail.

Tackle in these dojos is redundant as the enemy is going nowhere so thats one lesson they will not be learning from these things.

full of strawmans today.

gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.

what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.

id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers.

I made no comment on AT participants. And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about - a criminal flag means CONCORD will destroy you whereas a suspect flag, which is what should be applied, and means other players can attack you.

And I also have a PhD because that is immensely relevant apparently.

again, back pedaling is all yours

look up definition of gimmicky and that will answer your first two questions

where are you trying to go with the second question?

i was referring to the kind of players who always cry about the meta-game and think everyone should fight honorably. the truth is in the sand box all that matters is what you can and are willing to do and what you cant and are unwilling to do. and yes, if dojo's become a thing, players will bling their ships knowing there is no risk of outside intervention.

yeah im playing EVE, the harsh sandbox where non-consensual, unbridled PvP is the norm. its why i play.

your the one advocating a change in direction here.

according to CCP the vast majority of PVP in eve is non-consensual.

gimmicky means special and different. this is what all the snowflake remarks are about. to get a little bit of space where you cant be touched by everyone is a special rule and gimmicky. blobs on the other hand exist because of a lack of special rules, its raw and unbridled.

precisely its a sandbox and everyone can play how they want. im not saying you cant have consensual PvP with me, your the one trying to say i cant have non-consensual PvP with you. the fact that a magical room is made where no one but the willing participants can exist is about as anti-sandbox as you can get.

your talking gimmicky as in player behavior, im talking gimmicky as in game mechanics. theres a difference and it matters.

the whole idea of dojos is to control the risk you expose yourself to. If your in a station i know exactly where you are and where you will appear from and im an advocate for making cloaks findable. If im hunting you and your flying in space duelling i should be able to come over and help the other side or just outright shoot your ship from under you.

FYI im not in sov warfare nor big fleet fights. though i have hot dropped a couple of times (and apparently CCP are looking at changing that)

no one is talking about balance. its the concept of being uninterruptable i dislike. that guarantee of no third parties, back stabbing or foul play that makes eve what it is. The notion that you can be out doing your thing and i cannot reach out and grab you.

the idea of dueling im fine with. the idea of trying to have an honourable fight im fine with. its the point at which nothing dishonorable can happen that im disagreeing with.

i prefer an EVE without such guarantees. its really is why i play.

This is where im coming from yeah. unless this allows players to create 2v2's and larger without the time consuming cross duelling then id rather not have.

if the duel is created at a safe, how many people are going to deliberately probe you down to attack you? its not going to be every Tom, **** and Harry. It will only be the people who are really looking to target you. and that to me is good gameplay.

more like anything that doesnt allow anyone at anytime to attack you for any reason.

again, i dont have an issue with the balance implications nor any equipment restrictions/checks (like a fw acc-gate-ish). just the can't be attacked by anyone at anytime for any reason implications.

make em probable, warpable. even make anyone interrupting go suspect upon entering, lose sec status, whatever. just take away that peace of mind that you have to deal with only what is in front of you.



have you read the EVE FAQ? or even my sig?

Eve is not about being ganked anywhere at any time for any reason. EVE is about having your day ruined anywhere at any time for any reason and having your dojo blown to bits accomplishes exactly that.

The small-minded tunnel vision in this thread is infuriating.

I'm just wondering if many in the pro-dojo crowd actually have an appreciation of what solo pvp entails.. the hunt, the outsmarting, the setup, etc.

Watch a lokoforloki (zao) or fintaure stream, look at what they do on their roams. Yeah sometimes there are blobs, sometimes there is ecm but then sometimes there are epic fights. Dojos are just cheapening the experience. With them a soloer jumps into system but the target instead of setting up in a plex sits in station and says come fight in my dojo with X ship or Y setup. This sounds fun??

What are these dojos fixing? If you and a partner want to fight you don't need a dojo. To all those claiming neutral logi issues or other other scenarios.. are you going to ask the friendly pirate that comes into system to fight in your controlled dojo? ..be realistic.

The problem with you ridiculing him for using the slipery slope argument is that you too are engaging in conjecture. you're saying that our fears are unfounded and will not come to fruition and you have about as much if not less solid evidence that it won't happen as we do that it will. So get down off ur high ****ing horse. This is all CONJECTURE, so stfu about logical fallacies when nobody in here is engaging it structured sound logical argumentation. I could just as easily call your argument the "Believes all content in eve is compartmentalized and will not effect other aspects" fallacy. All you are attempting to do is marginalize legitimate fears.

Btw. In debate an argument has to be both sound and logical to be considered valid. Also it's better to be sound and not logical than logical and not sound.

You can already organise tournaments, this idea is only adding tools to make it easier and is in fact removing content in the form of people attacking said tournament.

You know, a fair number of us who think this dojo idea has potential are also dirty blobbers, and frankly, your oversimplified generalization there is pretty insulting.

Follow fleet, press F1? Really? Maybe for the most slack-jawed of dps pilots, but many of us are doing quite a lot of things in those fights - tackle, defensive dictors, logistics, scouts, etc. And even the basic line battleship pilot should be keeping his eyes on the larger situation, watching local, keeping an occassional eye on d-scans, watching for distant cynos on the overview, and so on.

Eve combat is deeper than 'follow fleet, press f1', even for the aspects of the game with which you clearly have no direct experience.

It will block others from attacking your ship in space, that's removing content.

Its not adding content because you can already do 1v1s. It is removing the ability for me to shoot your ship while you are in combat, thus it is removing content. This is a hard fact.

Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena.

When you are fighting someone in PvP with your ship you are neither cloaked nor in a station.

When such a thing exists, it has broken the sandbox. That is not even up for argument, it's a fact.

Quite the opposite, actually.

That you are there and shooting at each other is reason enough.

Having an area in space in which two people are fighting that is impossible for anyone else to enter is not something we have ever seen before.

I respect your right to do a 1v1, why do you not respect my right to blow both of you up?

As you have been told several times now AT takes place in space nobody but CCP can access and uses tools nobody but CCP has access to.

Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.

It isn't.

We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.

And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.

For no tradeoff, and no drawback.

And such a thing breaks the sandbox. Which means that the answer is "too bad".

Nevermind that you're not giving anything up in exchange for a massive reduction in your risk, what you are asking for in and of itself is unacceptable.

Granted. While I would love to see them come to TQ simply to revel in the unholy shitstorm of rage, tears and bittervet unsubs, I don't actually see it happening. Ever.

What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory?

No, they are not. By definition they remove any possible outside influence (except boosts, since it's pretty obvious that they cannot actually do that).

Which means that the risk of being interfered with pretty much drops to zero.

Now, since your risk is all gone, what are you going to give up for it? I suggest that any ship destroyed automatically has no loot, which probably should be implemented anyway to help avoid RMT schemes that would arise from it.

In addition, perhaps a ten million isk fee per person to even activate it.

You provided no facts, and ignored my basic point. Presumably because you know that you cannot refute it.

Your risk of being interfered with by a third party drops to zero.

Since that is a huge reduction in risk, what are you willing to give up for it? You know, since you kept spouting about risk vs reward and all that. You are getting tons of risk taken away, now you have to pay for it.

I think not looting, paying ten million, and oh invalidating ship insurance would be a fair price.

With the proper setup you can pick your duels and never die, it's impossible with dojos.

You lose the ability to use :

- pimped modules over someone with a t2 fit

- pimped implants

- OGB links

- neut logis

- stations

- friends/alts to bump

- mobile depot

It's simply not the same experience at all.

It isn't relevant. You keep on ignoring what I have been talking about the whole time.

I do not give one flying rat's ass about your QQ about neutral reps and faction modules, I am talking about the risk of interference by a third party.

I can almost taste the irony. Are you illiterate or what? Are you having this dictated to you?

No, I didn't.

Learn to read.

And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.

"AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem.
An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem.

CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop.

Nothing you posted constitutes the words I just quoted, and you repeatedly ignore what I am actually talking about to keep pounding the table about your talking points as though QQ about faction modules actually means anything.

With the proper setup you can pick your duels and never die, it's impossible with dojos.

You lose the ability to use :

- pimped modules over someone with a t2 fit

- pimped implants

- OGB links

- neut logis

- stations

- friends/alts to bump

- mobile depot

It's simply not the same experience at all.

Once again, you just can't read, can you?

I am talking about interference by a third party.

Not *any* of that petty bullshit you are crying about, more than one of which is not effected by this fairy tale dojo you seem to think will ever see Tranquility.

You know, Mr. Bamboozlement

The last sentence was not about AT, it relates to eve's development tendencies in general.

This seems to theme parkish and like battlegrounds in other mmos. So I'm going to vote no on this one. EvE is about risk and reward not instant gratification.

If it stays on the test servers, that's fine that's where it should be, just not on TQ.

No, it's quite correct. This aborted concept completely removes any risk of interference by a third party, at no cost. It reduces risk, and does not have a penalty attached to it.

Ergo, it does not respect risk/reward.