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El Creepo
Sex Machineguns Happy Cartel
7
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Posted - 2014.09.26 11:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
snorkle25 wrote:El Creepo wrote:With the exception of the might big jump drive strapped to their arse? This isn't really an advantage, allow me to illustrate: Two fleets jump onto a battle in eve, fleet A is 20 BLOP'S (about 1.5-2B apiece fully fit) with 5 recons and some bombers. Fleet B is 25 T1 armor BS (say Dominixs) with 10 guardians. Which fleet wins? At the current level of balance, the T1 conventional fleet wins because they tank more damage and can bring logistics along with them. Sure the BLOP BS can jump itself there, but once it gets there, it's worse than any T1 BS there. What good is a built in jump drive when everyone in their mother has a Titan to bridge in whole conventional fleets? Even BRAVE, the unofficial newbie alliance of EVE, has access to Titans to bridge their fleets. Sure the case can be made for Cov ops cynos in jammed systems, but the BLOP fleet without inherent logistics can't tank a POS, much less a defending fleet, long enough to take down a cyno jammer. The fact remains there isn't any role in game for this ship, besides bridging bombers, that can't be done better and more efficiently by another hull. This is by definition exactly what CCP set out to fix with the tiericide program. Thats completely not how you use a blops, not how they should be used not even... just... ARG!
Seriously. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1553
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Posted - 2014.09.26 11:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.
Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin. Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time..... Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
22
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Posted - 2014.09.26 13:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.
Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin. Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time..... Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.
No ideas on the BLOP that are based on experience because I really just started looking into them as a potential to train for but some thoughts do occur here. The BLOP re-balance will be part of the larger whole of whatever happens to nul. Maybe CCP is happy with where the BLOP are and have no intent on a re-balance.
Again based on a very limited amount of study of these ships but it seems logical that they are not intended to go fleet to fleet in any type of a sustained engagement, hit and run on smaller higher value targets seems to be the intended role. Just as an example you have a fleet engaged and have identified a critical target say the opponents FC. Jump in BLOP destroy that one ship and then jump out again. Or use a single BLOP to bring in a small bomber fleet to accomplish the same task.
If they gave the BLOP the same tank and gank abilities as the T1 hulls I can only imagine what would be said in the numerous BLOP are OP and need a nerf topics that would pop up. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2731
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Posted - 2014.09.26 13:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.
Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin. Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time..... Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience.
Show me on the chart where CCP has ever actually finished anything that they've started - especially when they've started something else before finishing the first thing.
If you can do that, then you can tell me about "CCP has the ability to work on more than one thing" and "have some patience". |
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
52
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Posting to add my distinct annoyance at Rise and Fozzie developing a severe case of ADD and "forgetting" to finish ship rebalancing before moving on to modules.
Seriously, you two. Take some Ritalin. Because they can't possibly have two projects working at the same time..... Take some concrete pills, add 2 common sense pills, and add a dose of patience. Show me on the chart where CCP has ever actually finished anything that they've started - especially when they've started something else before finishing the first thing. If you can do that, then you can tell me about "CCP has the ability to work on more than one thing" and "have some patience".
Also I'm reminded that CCP themselves are quick to point out they only have so many people working for them. In fact the thread where players were petitioning for the jukebox to be returned, some DM posted something along the lines of "That's fine and all, BUT you do realize if we devote resources into bringing the music player back, then other projects won't get the work and attention they need".
So yes it makes all the sense in the world to dog-pile on them and tell them to finish important work and do things in a logical order.
BUT!
On his side, someone earlier in the thread made a comment about working on things "that someone can do on their coffee break that won't detract from the resources of bigger projects". It's entirely possible that this small bit of module tiericide was small enough to squeeze into this release and it didn't require a lot of time to do. I saw their blog post about what they're doing with the modules in this iteration, and it looks freaking awesome and rather well thought-out. I think this is a good thing, so long as the proper attention is still given to ships needing balanced. We get to enjoy some benefits of the tiericide NOW, before the long-term goal of ship balance is complete (because let's be honest, it'll probably be a while before it's done. That's not a slight against CCP, it's a complicated process and there's still a lot of ships waiting for their turn). HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
81
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Posted - 2014.09.26 19:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
afkalt wrote:[quote=Lugh Crow-Slave]
People keep saying the covops cloak makes them too good but I can't understand why.
It's not as if they are majorly fast lockers - I must be missing something.....but can someone enlighten me?
The ability to move around a system free of D-scan and ambush targets with no further warning then being in local is one. As of now they need a Cyno to be moved into place first something that is harder to do and provides more warning.
The fact that cov-cloaks have no speed or scan res penalty (something the blops have been balanced around dealing with)
and if we want to look at a widow it would be able to jam your fleet and warp off w/o you knowing the direction to try for an intercept. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
357
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Posted - 2014.09.26 19:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).
I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)
Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
83
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Posted - 2014.09.26 20:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).
I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)
Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else.
they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed
as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf.
But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now. |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1293
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Posted - 2014.09.26 21:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).
I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)
Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else. they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf. But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now.
Black ops battleships already have a massive nerf. They're battlecruisers that cost a billion ISK.
That said, they should at least be buffed to be between T1 battleships and Navy battleships. Forget covops cloak please. Would rather be able to kill things than look at them. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
El Creepo
Sex Machineguns Happy Cartel
8
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Posted - 2014.09.27 08:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:I partly see your point but it doesn't seem fundamentally broken to me. Not considering their battleship lock time as well as their price point (I know it's not a balancing factor in general but it still factors in).
I may be wrong, I just can't see them becoming 'problem' ships. It's not massively different to popping a covert cyno to pull them on grid. Slightly cheaper, but I mean if people want to roll about in billion isk ships trying for ambushes then more power to them tbh - lots will pop and that's a good thing :)
Maybe I'm wrong, I think in addition to other tweaks they'd be pretty ok with it - couldn't just add them then do nothing else. they have the highest scan res of any battle ships and fit right w/o a cloak on you can get them to frig lock speed as for it being a good thing CCP has stated that if a battle ship ever gets a Cov ops cloak they will get a massive nurf. But yes it would be cool and they would have a bigger presence in WH it would just make things unbalanced as they are now. Black ops battleships already have a massive nerf. They're battlecruisers that cost a billion ISK. That said, they should at least be buffed to be between T1 battleships and Navy battleships. Forget covops cloak please. Would rather be able to kill things than look at them. No. They f**king. Should not. |
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Sieonigh
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
21
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Posted - 2014.09.27 09:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
(warning very TLDR) assume that blops did get covert cloaks? (not saying they should, hypothetical here)
first lets looks how the module would interact with the ship.
the cov cloak module stats: ........................ being able to warp cloaked ........................ lock Recalibration time 10s ........................ Reactivation delay 30s ........................ pg 1 CPU 100 ........................ velocity penalty 0%
the bonuses of blops effecting cloaks: ........................ no targeting delay after decloaking ........................ cloak reactivation reduced to 5 sec ........................ 125% to ship velocity when cloaked per lvl of blops skill
now given the current level of power creep that EVE has has sustained over the ship tiriside warping cloaked wouldn't be too massively powerful given their isk investment. how ever the bonuses with blops would have to change, in their current state the only draw back they would take is paying full CPU for the cloak. the cloaking skill at lvl 5 will reduce the lock Recalibration time to 1/2 (5s) and that is over ridden with the role bonus. the speed bonus would be insane with the cov cloaks stats being able to move at MWD speeds hidden (although very amusing).
so if cov cloaks were to be implemented some draw backs would have to be considered. firstly would be to address the cloak speed bonus, personally i don't think having it at all would be better and replaced with with another bonus that could be universal to all blops ships however if it were to stay 10% per lvl (total 50% looking at about 300m/s from a panther no mods) would be reasonable. next to address would be the delay timers, with the cloak skill already halving the lock Recalibration time and rigs to also help reduce removing the "no targeting delay after decloaking" role bonus would be sufficient. the Reactivation delay role bonus would also need to be removed so taking that gate while cloaked will mean having to wait the timer be for committing to warp (gotta be careful with them gate camps) anyone who played the astero when it first came out will know this feel.
so what would the blops ship's bonuses look like after this supposed change?
can fit covert cloak can fit cover cyno gen can fit covert jump portal gen
hmm rather bare don't you think? assuming that the other battle ship bonuses will be for it guns and the blops would be for ship velocity and X or cloak speed bonus, something more interesting should be added? i would veto the addition of MJD bonus as marauders already got that and we don't want repetition, so lets address their most common uses in their current state.
currently their uses consist of blops ganking and blops bridging and CCP have already deemed that the new jump fuel economizer modules would be too much although much favored by blops pilots. so an idea, put the cloak speed as the role bonus (flat 50%) justification of this is that you only getting it when toggling to cloak and put a new bonus for the blops skill that all blops can benefit from. 10% reduction in capacitor consumption after using jump drive, this on the blops skill would encourage the train to lvl 5 which would be a long train as well as there would be a sense of progression along the 5 lvls.
so e.g. panther
Role Bonus: ........................can fit covert cloak, cover cyno gen and covert jump portal gen ........................ 50% to ship velocity when cloaked
Minmatar Ship Bonus: (per skill lvl) ........................ 5% to large projectile damage ........................ 5% to large projectile rate of fire
Blops Skill Bonus: (per skill lvl) ........................ 5% to ship velocity ........................ 10% reduction in capacitor consumption after using jump drive. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
592
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 10:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Is this seriously not nerf afk cloaking thread.
What a twist.
I am shocked.
SHOCKED!
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
84
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 10:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sieonigh wrote:(warning very TLDR)
well you were close but you don't seem to address everything partly the fewer fitting options as now there would be no reason not to use a Cov cloak and put the rest of the cloaks nearly out of the job as BLOPS are one of the last ships they are widely used on.
in the balancing yes being able to warp cloaked would be to strong for a battleship just the ease at which you could disengage and move around systems safely. You also forgot the scan res as it stands BLOPS are given the highest scan res of all battleships to compensate for the cloak (after cloak putting them just under the faction) with a cov cloak they would not take a res hit putting something like the panther at 140mm base. From there you can bring there lock speed up to frig w/o sacrificing DPS. |
Sieonigh
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
21
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Posted - 2014.09.27 10:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sieonigh wrote:(warning very TLDR)
well you were close but you don't seem to address everything partly the fewer fitting options as now there would be no reason not to use a Cov cloak and put the rest of the cloaks nearly out of the job as BLOPS are one of the last ships they are widely used on. in the balancing yes being able to warp cloaked would be to strong for a battleship just the ease at which you could disengage and move around systems safely. You also forgot the scan res as it stands BLOPS are given the highest scan res of all battleships to compensate for the cloak (after cloak putting them just under the faction) with a cov cloak they would not take a res hit putting something like the panther at 140mm base. From there you can bring there lock speed up to frig w/o sacrificing DPS.
i admit i overlooked the scan res penalty of regular cloaks, however that would be compensated by the cloak delay as mentioned.
panther: also after skills, leadership 5 and a sebo (res script) the scan res comes up to 341 before any fitting and thats cruiser lock speed. frigs are 500+. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
84
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 11:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sieonigh wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sieonigh wrote:(warning very TLDR)
well you were close but you don't seem to address everything partly the fewer fitting options as now there would be no reason not to use a Cov cloak and put the rest of the cloaks nearly out of the job as BLOPS are one of the last ships they are widely used on. in the balancing yes being able to warp cloaked would be to strong for a battleship just the ease at which you could disengage and move around systems safely. You also forgot the scan res as it stands BLOPS are given the highest scan res of all battleships to compensate for the cloak (after cloak putting them just under the faction) with a cov cloak they would not take a res hit putting something like the panther at 140mm base. From there you can bring there lock speed up to frig w/o sacrificing DPS. i admit i overlooked the scan res penalty of regular cloaks, however that would be compensated by the cloak delay as mentioned. panther: also after skills, leadership 5 and a sebo (res script) the scan res comes up to 341 before any fitting and thats cruiser lock speed. frigs are 500+.
The delay bonus doesn't comp for that at all. Also you can get to over 550mm in a panther and that's on a char that doesn't have max skills or any fleet boosts you use more then one Sebo
EDIT: also i didn't see your cap bonus i'm not to in favor of that as a reduced cap is used as a draw back for hot dropping it may not need to be as severe as it currently is but its pretty close and that bonus also isn't to helpful on the panther or a good deal of sin fits. a few sin fits actually benefit from reduced cap.
Also is that reduced cap consumption after the use of a jump drive or on using a jump drive? |
Athay Huren
Bad Taste Aquarium
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 11:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sieonigh wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sieonigh wrote:(warning very TLDR)
well you were close but you don't seem to address everything partly the fewer fitting options as now there would be no reason not to use a Cov cloak and put the rest of the cloaks nearly out of the job as BLOPS are one of the last ships they are widely used on. in the balancing yes being able to warp cloaked would be to strong for a battleship just the ease at which you could disengage and move around systems safely. You also forgot the scan res as it stands BLOPS are given the highest scan res of all battleships to compensate for the cloak (after cloak putting them just under the faction) with a cov cloak they would not take a res hit putting something like the panther at 140mm base. From there you can bring there lock speed up to frig w/o sacrificing DPS. i admit i overlooked the scan res penalty of regular cloaks, however that would be compensated by the cloak delay as mentioned. panther: also after skills, leadership 5 and a sebo (res script) the scan res comes up to 341 before any fitting and thats cruiser lock speed. frigs are 500+. The delay bonus doesn't comp for that at all. Also you can get to over 550mm in a panther and that's on a char that doesn't have max skills or any fleet boosts you use more then one Sebo EDIT: also i didn't see your cap bonus i'm not to in favor of that as a reduced cap is used as a draw back for hot dropping it may not need to be as severe as it currently is but its pretty close and that bonus also isn't to helpful on the panther or a good deal of sin fits. a few sin fits actually benefit from reduced cap. Also is that reduced cap consumption after the use of a jump drive or on using a jump drive?
you should probably set your all your skills to level 5 when doing your theory crafting.
and any battleship with 3 sebos will get high scan res so that argument is a bit empity
as for the cloke relock time 2.76 sec is the shortest with a stratios smookscreen + 3T2 rigs cloke relock time for a recon 3.25 smokescreen +2 rigs
if backlops got the cov cloke it will always have a min of 3.25 sec wait befor locking if we are using what sieonigh suggested
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