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Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:10:00 - [1] Well just reactivated my account, part of leaving inn the first place was due to silly mee speccing inn mini's Now that i got back ive discovered that the imblances have gotten even bigger with mini's slugging behind on last place inn most ship classes. And to much ave reading that the Dev's still havent admited to that the whole concept of minmatars being completely flawed. Seeing as they have released new mini ships with the sole purpose of keeping the targets well painted and still. That has to prove that they know there are some serious design flaws going on. The whole concept of hit and run type of class pretty much contradicts itself. Here we have ships thats faster(whoopido those 20ms shure helps) And yet we have poor tracking weapons. Transversal+projectiles equals to bad. They say we are supossed to bee a Jack of all trades master of none type of faction. That whole concept has never worked inn anny mmo ive ever played and never will, it will allways bee imbalanced either way on the scale. Projectile ammo still does less dmg than its counterparts. Our slott layouts are on a broad spectrum awfull with some expetions ofc. Our hitpoints are lower than out counterparts Our cap and regen are lower than our counterparts Our shields/armor are lower du to the fact we are supossed to fill a role that's flawed to the bone. Our clip sizes are just dumb making our dpm even poorer. Our dps is just... Our much rumored strong side being the Alpha strike has allready been nerfed and by the dev's inntention of making combat last longer, its prolly gonna get nerfed again. Yes the vagabond is a good ship alltough the low/mids still suffer from that jack of all trades thing. So leave that one out of it. Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) Wait that cant bee right.. or can it.. I could prolly fill a couple of pages with whine allone but il leave it that. CCP please throw us silly people that specced Minmatar a friggin bone. /emote steps into his flame proof suit and limps along to train to for something else. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:14:00 - [2] Would it be wrong to point out that your two ships capable of using those weapons... One has a 33% damage bonus [Phoon] One has a 66% damage bonus [Tempest (ROF + DMG MOD) Bonus] Whereas other races have up to 25% maximum. Sure they're still somewhat low, but they aren't bad. My Guides
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Nervar on 08/08/2006 18:21:19 Il give it to the Amarr they have rough time too. But thats acknowledged and getting changed. As far as Gallente the Mega's tracking bonus more than makes up for it. The Domi alone has more drone dps than an entire rack of t2 800(no dmg) mods of course add the gun dmg bonus ontop of that The caldari: Scorp dont need to say annything more about that one. The Raven's got a superior Tank, good dps and ofcourse allways hits. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:20:00 - [4] I got a few corp members proud of being Minmatar and enjoying tempests, typhoons and cyclones along with ruptures and stabbers... And will probably love Vagabonds later in the game... I'm even having an alt enjoying being a minmatar though she's not exactly impressing... Pinky
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Aeaus Would it be wrong to point out that your two ships capable of using those weapons... One has a 33% damage bonus [Phoon] One has a 66% damage bonus [Tempest (ROF + DMG MOD) Bonus] Whereas other races have up to 25% maximum. Sure they're still somewhat low, but they aren't bad. I don't things are quite as bad as he said, but I'd like to address this point because it's been bothering me. Yes, the Tempest has dual bonuses which bring its damage in line with the other battleships (while it's still largely outdamaged by the others, it's not too badly outdamaged). BUT. That dual damage bonus requires both of the ship bonuses for the Tempest. Meanwhile other ships get tracking bonuses, cap bonuses, and the like. The fact that Minmatar ships NEED to have dual damage bonuses to keep up with other ships means that we actually lose out on versatility compared with other ships, since they get additional advantages that we do not.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:27:00 - [6] Worse ships in every class? Rifter probably the all round number 1 tech I frig. Rupture is probably one of if not the best Cruiser. Vaga is probably one of the best HACS. Tempest and also now the Typhoon are also very nice ships. If you compare purely dps and trying to judge balance by that youre going about it all wrong. Case in point, rax with blasters, rupture with autos, rupture is faster so can keap the rax at the range it chooses and *****said rax while laughing as the rax cant get into blaster range, yet the rax can do more dps, cant be right can it? Raven, with torps does pretty low DPS overall, but its still pretty ub3r no? Nos Domi does even lower DPS, some consider it an "i win" button, surely not as it has low dps it MUST suck surely? CEO - Art of War
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:33:00 - [7]
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:35:00 - [8] mmmmm I think its not so bad and win or lose is due more to setup and sp. Whatever ship I am in, if I armor tank emp, I feel I do very well against lasers Railguns kick my ass!
Triest Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Nebuli Worse ships in every class? Rifter probably the all round number 1 tech I frig. Rupture is probably one of if not the best Cruiser. Vaga is probably one of the best HACS. Tempest and also now the Typhoon are also very nice ships. If you compare purely dps and trying to judge balance by that youre going about it all wrong. Case in point, rax with blasters, rupture with autos, rupture is faster so can keap the rax at the range it chooses and *****said rax while laughing as the rax cant get into blaster range, yet the rax can do more dps, cant be right can it? Raven, with torps does pretty low DPS overall, but its still pretty ub3r no? Nos Domi does even lower DPS, some consider it an "i win" button, surely not as it has low dps it MUST suck surely? Sure, DPS isn't everything. It is, however, the most obvious way to compare the different weapon systems. If you look at other traits, projectiles are also hardly impressive. The worst tracking, worst ammunition capacity, lowest optimal range (but highest falloff, sure, but that's not very useful in fleet engagements at sniping range, where the only way you're hitting is with +100% optimal ammo which benefits the other races more). My view on the matter is that the poor damage on projectiles means that we're limited in other ways. We don't get other bonuses on our ships other than boosting damage just so we can stay competitive. Look at the Rupture vs Thorax, for instance. The Rupture gets a 5% ROF and 5% damage bonus, which puts its DPS at least closer to that of the Thorax. The Thorax, on the other hand, gets an MWD penalty reduction. The Moa gets a shield resistance bonus, and the Maller gets an armor bonus. I'm not saying the Rupture isn't a good ship, but the fact that these double bonuses are NECESSARY just to approach the DPS of the other races means that Minmatar pilots lose out on the other bonuses they get.
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Nebuli Worse ships in every class? Rifter probably the all round number 1 tech I frig. Rupture is probably one of if not the best Cruiser. Vaga is probably one of the best HACS. Tempest and also now the Typhoon are also very nice ships. If you compare purely dps and trying to judge balance by that youre going about it all wrong. Case in point, rax with blasters, rupture with autos, rupture is faster so can keap the rax at the range it chooses and ***said rax while laughing as the rax cant get into blaster range, yet the rax can do more dps, cant be right can it? Raven, with torps does pretty low DPS overall, but its still pretty ub3r no? Nos Domi does even lower DPS, some consider it an "i win" button, surely not as it has low dps it MUST suck surely? Think ive flown mini's long enough to see the whole picture. you seem to bee stuck on my extreme comparisons betwen hybrids and projectiles. Rifter: Yep good friggi Rupture < Rax,maller,carcal Vaga never claimed othervise Tempest is horrible. Typhoon is one of our feew ships with a good slot layout. I havent if you actually read i draw out sever weakpoint inn relation to other races. As far as your whole theoretical Rax versus Rupture combat goes. Hypoteical combat dosnt give you clue on how a ship is going to perform on Tq. It simply wont cut it to say one can do this and one can do that. As i pointed out, the ravens got an exemplary slott layout enabling to both hardcore tank and gank at the same time. No range restrictions, no tracking etc etc etc. Nos domi got lower Dps than a tempest with t2 800's ?? Its drones alone does more dps. Stick some guns on there and the gap just widens. Fun fact 5x t2 heavy drones on a domi with decent skills equals to about 500 dps. A temp with 6x t2 800's and emp ammo is gonna around 334 dps -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.**
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Nervar Projectile ammo still does less dmg than its counterparts. False. EMP is 9% lower, Carbonized Lead is 20% higher Our slott layouts are on a broad spectrum awfull with some expetions ofc. Want to trade? Our hitpoints are lower than out counterparts True Our cap and regen are lower than our counterparts Cap is lower is true, but that cap regen is lower is false Our shields/armor are lower du to the fact we are supossed to fill a role that's flawed to the bone. This one has been touched previously, but begs explanation what the flawed concept is Our clip sizes are just dumb making our dpm even poorer. At the same time you use no capacitor Our dps is just... Dps is not everything Our much rumored strong side being the Alpha strike has allready been nerfed and by the dev's inntention of making combat last longer, its prolly gonna get nerfed again. Narrow minded point of view. Tuxford did say that if they managed to prolong combat, they have to do something about Artillery's alpha strike Yes the vagabond is a good ship alltough the low/mids still suffer from that jack of all trades thing. So leave that one out of it. We are to leave a ship out of the discussion because it's good, but at the same time leave a comment suggesting that the ship suffers in slot layout!? If it suffers it'd because it's got too many options that are good, not too many poor ones Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) Cap per second is...? Range is...? Oh, and the 800mm can hit unless you try to do dumb orbits at edge of optimal, in which case the electron blaster cannon can't hit, neither T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) What skills? No skills? What ranges? Fall off? Ammo use? I'm surprised you didn't compare fittings... Wait that cant bee right.. or can it.. Nope, it's not right. You didn't compare everything Comments in bold. I think Minmatar deserves some bones just as much as the next man, but I hate it when people are being narrowminded or bending the truth. I also dislike that you added so many subjective arguments. It seems that, most of all, you are angry that you chose a racial concept that didn't fit you, although it sounded snazzy when you bought it. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 18:50:00 - [12] If youre getting pwned by those cruisers in your rupture then all other points of being ub3r pilot are invalid and I think we have found the problem lol. Tempest sucks? Is this a joke thread? CEO - Art of War
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:00:00 - [13] Edited by: HankMurphy on 08/08/2006 19:01:14 Originally by: Nebuli Worse ships in every class? Rifter probably the all round number 1 tech I frig. Rupture is probably one of if not the best Cruiser. Vaga is probably one of the best HACS. Tempest and also now the Typhoon are also very nice ships. If you compare purely dps and trying to judge balance by that youre going about it all wrong. Case in point, rax with blasters, rupture with autos, rupture is faster so can keap the rax at the range it chooses and ***said rax while laughing as the rax cant get into blaster range, yet the rax can do more dps, cant be right can it? Raven, with torps does pretty low DPS overall, but its still pretty ub3r no? Nos Domi does even lower DPS, some consider it an "i win" button, surely not as it has low dps it MUST suck surely? Originally by:** Nebuli If youre getting pwned by those cruisers in your rupture then all other points of being ub3r pilot are invalid and I think we have found the problem lol. Tempest sucks? Shocked Is this a joke thread? dood this guy knows what he's talking about..... Domi def has low dps and NO versatility w/ that dronebay. Raven's DPS is just crap... why i bet you couldn't find every complex in the game being farmed solo by a Raven pilot Us minmatar should not be ****ed about having dozens of millions in SP and being able to be out gunned by a msl/drone spammer w/ 3 mil SP. We should be happy w/ the 'very nice' ships we have and not even look to see how green the grass is on the neighbors lawn (oh, and what the hell are you smoking where you see ruptures cruising around faster than rax's??? last i checked most ppl in rax's use MWD) if this wasn't a joke thread.... your attempt at enlighting us against whats basically common knowledge certainly turned it into one go back to your hard life of finding one better shield mod and deciding what torps to load noob
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:04:00 - [14] Hank, last I checked there were plenty of option in fitting MWD on a Rupture, too... Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:04:00 - [15] Yeah cuz like my sig points out im a raven pilot Oh and as for plexs, do you know what the best ship is for those, and you should know this living in space where plexs are run by RED everyday, 10/10s are run by shock horror, tempests. And my god man rax is faster than rupture, wtf are you on man? Honostly your entire post is utter nonesense, and didnt add anything whatsoever apart from "n00b go fly your raven" ,my missile skills SUCK, I dont fly caldari missile ships AT ALL, I fly gal more or less exclusively, but happen to be skilling min atm, jab and wolf pwn and 4 slot inty 4tw. CEO - Art of War
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:09:00 - [16] Inn response to Ilthidin False. EMP is 9% lower, Carbonized Lead is 20% higher good point il bow to that one. This one has been touched previously, but begs explanation what the flawed concept is. The jack of all trades concept? Old counter argument. Every mini specced pilot i know would gladly make the tradeoff Dps is not everything. No dps isnt everything thats quite correct. But it Adds to the pain. Been away for awhile, my apologies havent read that blog. We are to leave a ship out of the discussion because it's good, but at the same time leave a comment suggesting that the ship suffers in slot layout!? If it suffers it'd because it's got too many options that are good, not too many poor ones. Primarely said due to the fact that its considered extrely good. Knew someone was gonna throw the whole vaga is imba, shut up line. Cap per second is...? Range is...? Oh, and the 800mm can hit unless you try to do dumb orbits at edge of optimal, in which case the electron blaster cannon can't hit, neither Again il gladly do a tradeoff. its 1,8 btw further lowered by skills.1.8 energy per second is _nothing_ considering its the "worst" of the blaster and still is superior to the biggest AC. Exatly the same optimal, There's been some indepth calculations on how much dps one loose by shooting inn the fallof, and it wasnt pretty. You do however speak the truth the falloff can come inn handy, but its highly hyped up imo. What skills? No skills? What ranges? Fall off? Ammo use? I'm surprised you didn't compare fittings No skills, optimal range, -50% ammo. Just a standard dps calc. Again i pointed out some rather funny extremes -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Nervar Rupture < Rax,maller,carcal What are you smoking? A rupture will toast all of those except possibly an ECM caracal. My Guides
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Nervar Fun fact 5x t2 heavy drones on a domi with decent skills equals to about 500 dps. A temp with 6x t2 800's and emp ammo is gonna around 334 dps At least get the damn numbers right... Dominix with max skills = 475 DPS Temepst with max skills = 396 dps (EMP) / 540 (Hail) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Nervar Originally by: Nebuli Fun fact 5x t2 heavy drones on a domi with decent skills equals to about 500 dps. A temp with 6x t2 800's and emp ammo is gonna around 334 dps It's ~450 (316 * 1.5) for the Dominix, and no DM 0 turret ship fares too well in that regard. The correct number for an 800mm II Tempest with DM 0 is 437.5, before drones - drones add 158 (that's 595.5 for those keeping track). And each damage mod adds about 96.2 * stacking penalty (1 for the first, 0.85 for the second, 0.56 for the third). With Hail and only DM 1, that's 726 DPS before drones (contrary to popular belief, we get the most potent T2 ammo with a 36% damage increase and the arguably most valuable damage types). So do me a favor and shut your hippy face. Highskill Minmatar aren't in any trouble at all. The way to skilling up however is pretty painful.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Temepst with max skills = 396 dps (EMP) / 540 (Hail) Correct without implants ;)
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:18:00 - [21] EvE is a different beast after RMR. October 2005 was ages ago. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:19:00 - [22] Hmm... A few more points. 0 cap/s is a lot better than 1.35 cap/s (which essentially removes all cap regen and more from whatever ship the electron blaster is fit on) I know exactly how much you tend to loose by staying in optimal and "not pretty" doesn't describe it. In most situations it's more like "am I really losing anything?". Keep in mind that while you are losing a tiny bit of dps, the enemy is losing huge chunks - this is what matters. If you didn't notice, by the way, the tracking difference between a 1400mm and a 425mm rail is nearly neglible. The assumption that hybrids track better than projectiles come from the fact that the Megathron has a tracking bonus. Standard dps calculations are done with max skills and appropriate ships at max skills, by the way. And with max number of guns on said ships. No extra modules. Speaking of extra modules. The Minmatar ship line gets a lot of those "extras" such as a lot better damage types (Amarr envy Gallente, who envy Minmatar), a lot better speed and agility, and better lock time. It's not quite as bleak as it looks on paper, Minmatar just aren't the in-your-face damage dealers that some might expect. They really are hard-mode. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
korrey Corinth Associates	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:22:00 - [23] If anyone here thinks the Tempest sucks then leave...immediately. The Tempest is an amazing battleship. If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Nervar Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) It's a pointless comparison because it makes no account of the ship(s) these are fitted to cough ROF and damage bonus cough ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Nervar Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) It's a pointless comparison because it makes no account of the ship(s) these are fitted to cough ROF and damage bonus cough Cough dmg and tracking bonus couch dmg and drone bonus -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:36:00 - [26] As long as ECM stays the way it is. Tempest is fine up close and at long range. Once ECM is nerfed to not be as effective on non-ew ships. Tempest up close will not be nearly as good as it once was... This taken into consideration along with the use of null giving t2 Blaster fitted mega range as far as Tempest would be a big negative against the Tempest. This however would be considered pre-whining, so I'm not gonna push the issue. As it stands the Tempest is fine. ----------------- The Vagabond is by far the best and most fun HAC in game for flying around all over 0.0 ganking npcers and noobs. In 1vs 1 etc, there are other hacs that take the top place. ------------------- Rupture is fine as is.... Stabber is a weak and will lose to almost any other PvP cruiser from the other races... namely Moa, Caracal, Maller, Vexor, Arbitrator and Thorax.. 3/3 mid/low makes it a terrible ship for PvP. Absolutely no tank, only thing it has is speed.. Bellicose is probably the worst of the ew cruiser classes.. People who argue otherwise haven't flown one... As such I don't blame them.. -------------------- Rifter is fine, ---------------------- Typhoon is still a useless ship aside from npcing... Gaining a grand total of 100 dps with the new bonus change.. With 25% bonus to missile dmg, it does 100 more dmg than it did before with the same missiles and no bonus. Still relies too heavily on drones for most of the dmg (45% and more). More shields than armor on a 4 mid/7low ship. Not enough grid to fit majority of setups. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.08 19:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Nervar Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Nervar Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) It's a pointless comparison because it makes no account of the ship(s) these are fitted to cough ROF and damage bonus cough Cough dmg and tracking bonus couch dmg and drone bonus Back tracking eh? You made out there was a huge difference in DPS by ignoring: On a Tempest up to 1.67x the DPS you posted. On a Megathron/Dominix up to 1.25x the DPS you posted. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 20:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Nervar Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Nervar Here is a fun comparison T2 electron blaster=22,4 dps T2 800 =18,05 dps (cant hit for F word) T2 dual 250=14,76 dps T2 1400 howie =12,84 dps (cant hit for F word) It's a pointless comparison because it makes no account of the ship(s) these are fitted to cough ROF and damage bonus cough Cough dmg and tracking bonus couch dmg and drone bonus Back tracking eh? You made out there was a huge difference in DPS by ignoring: On a Tempest up to 1.67x the DPS you posted. On a Megathron/Dominix up to 1.25x the DPS you posted. Not quite shure what you mean but: You seemed to imply that i was not taking into account the ships theyr where supposed to bee fitted on(bonus wise im guessing). Now the mega's tracking bonus makes up for the lack of rof bonus. The Domi's got the drone's wich does great dps by them self. Now add the bonuses you mentioned, and yes your right the ac will have around 2 more dps than the electron. Again that second mega bonus is great And that second domi bonus certanly isnt bad either. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.08 20:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Crellion Minmattar use no cap for guns have the fastest ships and better reach on their close range guns than all close range guns. They also have tight fittings and a bit less DPS than other races. Actually, pulse lasers have a lot better range without losing much damage at all from it. Additionally, AC fittings aren't tight. AC fittings are very generous compared to blasters or pulse lasers. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Nervar Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 20:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Nervar Not quite shure what you mean but: You seemed to imply that i was not taking into account the ships theyr where supposed to bee fitted on(bonus wise im guessing). Now the mega's tracking bonus makes up for the lack of rof bonus. The Domi's got the drone's wich does great dps by them self. Now add the bonuses you mentioned, and yes your right the ac will have around 2 more dps than the electron. Again that second mega bonus is great And that second domi bonus certanly isnt bad either. Tracking bonus: No, it's not great. It adds the possibility of orbitting, certainly, but with BShips being the way they are, orbitting is asking to be killed. Range is a lot more important than tracking. Drone bonus: It's great. However, it's NOT a good damage source bonus. The damage curves do not tell the whole picture when it comes to drones, nor is it very much. Not to mention that it can't be enhanced through damage mods. Point is, you are painting a black picture by comparing the bright spots of the other races. The Tempest isn't the best ship, but it's far from the worst ship. Are you talking from a purely 1v1 scenario where 2 ships just tryes to maintain their favored optimal or real combat where sitting still or having a low transversal means your gonna get hurt? Cant argue with more hits equals more dmg can you? All races have dark spots i dont think ive said othervise. But yes ive flown mini ships for a long time and from my standpoint of view our darkspot is allot larger then the others. I just wanna see the factions being more equal to one and other. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.

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