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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2014.10.09 11:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
You know I look at this thread and I do some EFT-warrioring, and I think I see a few problems with the Prospect. But it's a catch-22, the problems can't be fixed without throwing off game balance in a major way. So while I'm about to put forth my opinion on the Prospect's shortcomings, keep two things in mind. 1: I'm just pointing out what I think is wrong, not suggesting it needs to change or can change. 2: I don't mine, so take my opinion on this with a grain of salt.
That said, here's what I see.
1: The Prospect's training requirements suck. You have to get mining frigate to level 5, to be precise about the problem. And while the Venture is an utterly fantastic ship for beginner miners, it doesn't seem to justify that amount of time investment for level 5. You just train up the requirement so you can move on to barges, so if you want to get into a Prospect, you have to divert time to train something you don't really want or need in the first place.
-As I said, I never said any changes can happen. All ship progressions are like this, but tier 1 frigates from the 4 races do have tremendous use that can justify level 5 training.
2: The Prospect doesn't offer that much for the price. It has a greatly expanded cargohold and extra yield over the Venture, but so what? For the same price as the Prospect, you can get a better mining ship you probably were already going to train into: the Procurer. The Procurer has slightly more yield, a ton more tank, and defensive drones. "What about the cov ops cloak", you say? Well...
3: The Prospect's role is too narrow. The cov ops aspect of it opens up a lot of opportunity, I won't deny that. But precisely what do you plan on doing with it? Ninja mine? That seems to be the purpose. But how you envision ninja mining in a way that yields better profits than just normal mining? And I know you can't mine while cloaked, so while you're mining you are still exposed and vulnerable...without any tank or drones to help you in the case an interceptor drops on you. And you can't cloak while targeted.
-So to make this cov ops thing worth it, you'd have to find a place that was defended enough for you to have to cloak to get into the front door, but a neut passing through the system won't cause people to start patrolling for you and scanning you down. The more time you spend dodging belt rats, gatecamps, and patrols, the more isk/hour you lose where you could have been mining in your hometown area, wherever that may be.
-Your complete lack of any defensive options, against rats or other player ships, needs to make sense verses the availability of using a Procurer for the same price.
-The use of the cloaking device has to be vastly limited. If you catch something on D-scan and/or local and you cloak, again, you're missing out on isk generation you could have gotten if you were in your normal security zone, whether it be blue doughnut territory or highsec.
-You most likely would have had to take time to scout out a place to mine in the first place. Have a favorite spot 4 jumps into lowsec/nullsec where you think nobody goes? Okay, but that's still a lot of time to scout out and time invested dodging high-risk gatecamps to get there.
-Oh, you're going to ninja mine through a wormhole into nullsec or in wormhole space? That's fine, but that's still unpredictable chances to actually use your investment into the Prospect. And I speak from experience, yes, those wormhole exits can be camped as well, though not as often. That requires even more work to scan down wormholes, and then ore or gas sites within those territories.
Basically it boils down to appearing that the Prospect is little more than a gas miner. That's the only practical thing it has over the mining barges. You don't have a lot of cargo or defensive options, and any ore that was valued enough to really justify jumping through all of these hoops to get, would already be mined to hell and back by whomever is local to THAT area.
The Venture and Prospect can gas mine fairly well...but you can use gas miners and a Venture with only like 2 or so hours of training, right? You don't need corp members to devote 14 or so days to get into a Prospect with Tech II gas miners. Just have most of your corp cross-train into a basic gas mining venture and call in as many of them as you need to clear a gas pocket. Done.
Am I wrong? Please, by all means, if there's more to the Prospect, now is a great time to let more people know. Maybe if more people know about some awesome things you can do with it, more people would use it. I could be very mistaken about these things since I don't mine, but looking at this ship's stats and the way EVE seems to be played, I just don't see any real use for it.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch. |
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.09 12:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote: For the same price as the Prospect, you can get a better mining ship you probably were already going to train into: the Procurer. The Procurer has slightly more yield, a ton more tank, and defensive drones.
That was how I assessed it though as an slightly inexperienced player I still have doubts based upon how rarely I see a Procurer.
Maybe they just hired a nicer scantily clad model to drape over the prospect on the photo for What Spaceship magazine thus boosting sales.
Beware of Pyerites
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Dave Stark
7041
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Posted - 2014.10.09 12:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Am I wrong?
not really.
the prospect lives to fill a niche that simply doesn't exist. |
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 13:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Mycool Jahksn wrote:I've said it once and I'll say it again. To make lowsec a wild west boomtown in a matter of seconds you need to put a mineral there that only exists there.
Remove 95% of Nocxium or better yet, Mexallon, from asteroids and spawn roids in lowsec that contain tons of nocxium or mexallon and I cannot stress this enough; tons.
This would make lowsec a risk / reward worthy place worth visiting. And who will farm it? The pirates who live there. And they *will* defend it. Your idea doesn't really work, but I'm sure they'd love to have it implemented. Sometimes I think people do not realise that anyone can do anything in this game and that pirates aren't stuck at being pirates ... ... like miners who seem to be stuck at being miners ... ... but also can have mining alts. Reminds me of the stupid argument of "who will mine for you 'PvPers' when we miners leave the game?" ... ... and the correction answer is, of course: Our alts. Why are you so anti social? An argument isn't stupid just because you don't agree with it. Your alts could never keep up with the massive mineral flow that carebears bring in. Anyway, of course but it would also bring risk taking high sec dudes into low sec. You are already in low sec, high sec carebears are not because it's not worth it.
The guy talks like he was on heavy medication but he's right in most cases.
Tunneling care bears into low sec would most likely get them killed and scarred for the rest of their (rather short) eve-life.
Saying the prices of what miners mine make them earn only constant amount is a bit false tough - you do have droped/lp store items that only partially depend on minerals (since their value comes mostly from "cost" of the loyalty point or pve-ers time needed to get them) and with minerals getting more expensive the relative cost of the LP would be lower for a miner.
Btw - imagine how gankers make people build more catalysts and barges. Who indirectly profits from that providing the materials to build it all? Since this is in the end the crucial thing about mining being not paying well enough - there's too much mined stuff compared to stuff you use the mined stuff for. Not to mention people valuing their afk-mining time too cheap.
And all the stuff aside - I think low sec mining is dead, and I'd be afraid to change it. You do need to provide high sec players with some decent activities. And only after some time try to drag them to low/null so they can really discover what the game is about :P
Make it profitable and you will have a month tops of people dying to camps/recons/happy cyno and then forums splattered with "don't mine in lows sec if you're not in a corp controlling the system".
"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe |
MsArj
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.10.09 13:44:00 -
[65] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:Am I wrong? not really. the prospect lives to fill a niche that simply doesn't exist.
Exactly my experience to. |
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.09 13:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Tunneling care bears into low sec would most likely get them killed and scarred for the rest of their (rather short) eve-life.
Figure it out.
Someone is already mining low sec quite proficiently.
It's a strategic advantage not a ship attribute.
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
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Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
62
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Posted - 2014.10.09 13:51:00 -
[67] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Mycool Jahksn wrote:And it does not because you say so? Lol.
You should start off by reading the OP. And you think your idea would work because you say so?  No ... it does not work, because it's disconnected from actual reality. It does not work, because it completely leaves out the fact that carebears ... ... do not go to lowsec, because they can lose their ships ... ... and can not mine afk there without definitely losing them. It also ignores the fact that giving lowsec a unique mineral ... ... will make all the people who live there already ... ... defend it as much as they can. People will lock down access from highsec to lowsec everywhere. Carebears will just whine even more ... ... because they can not access this mineral. It's not me who is anti-social here. It's you who simply refuses to accept that his idea will not work the way it's thought out.
As I said, read the original post.
Or nah, I'll spell it out for you because you obviously can't perform simple tasks; he is a carebear who went to low sec only to find it unprofitable and not worth the risk vs reward.
I was also a carebear once, mercoxit made me enter 0.0. The rest is history. Don't speak like you are the collective carebear voice because you are not.
Also, lock down lowsec? In case you didn't know warp bubbles cant be deployed in low sec. Escaping a gate camp would be hillariously easy, especially since you can deploy capitals there and bring in materials whatever way you want.
My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth. |
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
62
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 14:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
And all the stuff aside - I think low sec mining is dead, and I'd be afraid to change it. You do need to provide high sec players with some decent activities. And only after some time try to drag them to low/null so they can really discover what the game is about :P
Make it profitable and you will have a month tops of people dying to camps/recons/happy cyno and then forums splattered with "don't mine in lows sec if you're not in a corp controlling the system".
I find this untrue. Why? Because null sec is exactly as dangerous as low sec is, in many cases even more dangerous due to warp bubbles, alliances patrolling their borders and whatnot.
I don't see the boards getting filled up with tears from noobs getting stomped in their search for ABCM in nullsec? Now, if the boards arent getting filled up now, why should they if we boost low sec?
My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth. |
MsArj
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 14:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
My experience was that highsec mining was kinda slow or not "engaging" enough. So i turned to the Venture and later on to the Prospect to get a more "active" mining with the tense moments that goes with low/wh traveling.
Im diving into "hostile" space witch feels really good, im doing something exiting and fun, i really get the "exploration" feeling!
And ofcourse i watch dscans, i notice whats in local. Im doing my best to stay alive and try to get some ore in the hold, and when i finaly get my ore hold filled up, i notice how much it really is and i kinda, bleh, is that all? :s
The experience is totally awesome, the payday aint. I really wish it was, because this could be dragging me to low/wh everyday!
Recently ive started trying to get to gas in WHS, if you find the right stuff its really worth it, and if you dont its kinda meh. But the experience is as i said really really nice. (Atleast for me!) |
Nevil Oscillator
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 15:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
MsArj wrote:
The experience is totally awesome, the payday aint. I really wish it was, because this could be dragging me to low/wh everyday!
I found the venture had to keep running off from belt rats because they suddenly become to tough for 2 drones to cope with.
I would be nice if there was this place where you could avoid the nasty ships to sneak in and mine some expensive ore.
Unfortunately groups who are not remotely scared of those same nasty ships might just exploit the new situation.
Where there is ISK there is corporations competing for it, where there isn't there is just you on your own with a mining ship.
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10752
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 15:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Can someone please tell that genius up there ...
... that he is completely clueless about what I am saying?
Because it seems that his brain shuts down when he reads my posts ...
... so you might have more luck than I do.
Kind of embarassing talking to him .....
... so please don't do it if you feel the same.
And please note his cool name.
He is definitely cool.
Can obviously be noticed easily.
Thanks. :)
I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked.
New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do
than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
62
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 15:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Can someone please tell that genius up there ...
... that he is completely clueless about what I am saying?
Because it seems that his brain shuts down when he reads my posts ...
... so you might have more luck than I do.
Kind of embarassing talking to him .....
... so please don't do it if you feel the same.
And please note his cool name.
He is definitely cool.
Can obviously be noticed easily.
Thanks. :)
Well, personal attacks always have been the perfect way to make a discussion move forward eh?
Your post is irrielevant because you assume all players AFK mine for example which is far from the truth. You assume far too much and act like you are the collective all knowing voice of everyone.
If you can't discuss, don't.
My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth. |
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.09 15:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:
It's not me who is anti-social here.
I would agree with most of what you wrote
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
|
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
62
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Posted - 2014.10.09 17:57:00 -
[74] - Quote
I'm not saying my plan is bulletproof but what I do know is that much could be done to make low-sec more attractive than it is today, that we can all agree on, anti-social or not.
My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth. |
Nevil Oscillator
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 18:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:I'm not saying my plan is bulletproof but what I do know is that much could be done to make low-sec more attractive than it is today, that we can all agree on, anti-social or not.
Low Sec : Ok So what is there ? Jaspet , that's about it,, get down to 0.2 it apparently gets more interesting but chances are you will fly through 6 red systems to find it's already been mined out of existence.
What's to say that if you put a different rare ore there the same thing won't happen ?
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
|
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.09 18:52:00 -
[76] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote: make low-sec more attractive than it is today
I think the issue is that something that is dangerous and deserves reward for one player isn't for a different player.
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
|
Ned Thomas
Hellbound Turkeys
Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
172
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Posted - 2014.10.09 22:30:00 -
[77] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:Am I wrong? not really. the prospect lives to fill a niche that simply doesn't exist.
I wouldn't say the niche isn't there, only that the niche isn't lucrative. I fly my Prospect almost every day in low/WH space just for a cheap little thrill.
In response to the OP, I would say that making the niche lucrative would either cause the Prospect to be overpowered or cause other methods of mining to become even more profitable comparatively. Outside of gas mining, if you're going to ninja mine, you just have to do it for reasons other than isk. |
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.10 01:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
I don't have enough knowledge about the game to say what all the knock on effects of changing the asteroid content of lowsec would be. I do know ore is a fairly significant part of the economic structure of the Eve Universe. I wouldn't consider going to lowsec in a mining ship without backup, there are a lot of non friendly ships there and there is the haulage to consider. I can't tell you if there is profit in lowsec mining because I'm not in a position to mount the kind of operation that might work. It isn't the direction I'm heading in so it would have to be something significant enough to make me change route. As stated earlier, I think a valuable ore becoming more available would devalue itself.
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
As for Distribution |
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
138
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Posted - 2014.10.10 02:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Torneach Structor wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Dear 0wl,
Please consider adding proper paragraphs for ease of readability.
Ever read a book? Those were proper paragraphs in the OP. No, they weren't. Screen != Book. Not even remotely comparable, superficial scrub. Charax Bouclier wrote:Perhaps your conclusions might be true if a miner also uses all of his income to purchase player created goods. However, there are other things to spend ISK on (PLEX, characters, wardecs, office rent blah blah blah), where you are comparing your relative revenue streams against players deriving income from other sources (say missions for example). So, higher ore prices should benefit the miner overall. "Overall". There are more things to spend for which his purchasing power always stays the same, than not. Besides ... your points are randomly chosen and too general. (wardecs, really lol) And, increasing the isk/hr would only make PLEX prices go higher. Besides all that, your argument is none. For a miner to earn more, everything else automatically gets more expensive too. It doesn't change anything I said in my post. There is no "overall benefit" from higher ore prices.
I am not sure how higher isk/hour earned from mining would result in a comparable increase in a non-player manufactured item like PLEX. ISK from mining doesn't introduce new ISK into the game unlike some other ISK-earning activities. It's really a transfer of wealth from the consumer of goods to the miner. |
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.10 04:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
I am a huge fan of the Prospect and I target skilled to get it but indeed it has the issue you speak of...
that why I think it purpose is more fleet based it is not a massively expensive ship and it would serve as a multisystem pair of eyes/targeted mining, but that's enough out of me.
*stares at a wall contemplating the reality of a world without chicken..* |
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Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
60
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Posted - 2014.10.10 06:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
And all the stuff aside - I think low sec mining is dead, and I'd be afraid to change it. You do need to provide high sec players with some decent activities. And only after some time try to drag them to low/null so they can really discover what the game is about :P
Make it profitable and you will have a month tops of people dying to camps/recons/happy cyno and then forums splattered with "don't mine in lows sec if you're not in a corp controlling the system".
I find this untrue. Why? Because null sec is exactly as dangerous as low sec is, in many cases even more dangerous due to warp bubbles, alliances patrolling their borders and whatnot. I don't see the boards getting filled up with tears from noobs getting stomped in their search for ABCM in nullsec? Now, if the boards arent getting filled up now, why should they if we boost low sec?
I live in Amarr/Minmatar zone and it is crowded with hostiles. You never have a situation when you're alone/only friendlies in the system.
If mining was a popular thing people would go for miners using tacklers and then bobing them to death. This is how we do it with cruisers, so I kinda think it would work for a barge.
If you've managed to ninja mine in null, with hostiles in local, then I salute you, but you're not the standard target of the would be mining buff.
"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe |
Nevil Oscillator
10
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Posted - 2014.10.10 07:18:00 -
[82] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:
I am not sure how higher isk/hour earned from mining would result in a comparable increase in a non-player manufactured item like PLEX. ISK from mining doesn't introduce new ISK into the game unlike some other ISK-earning activities. It's really a transfer of wealth from the consumer of goods to the miner.
It might in terms of the GNP of Eve increasing thus players are no longer prepared to sell PLEX as cheaply, I'm not sure if that matters or not. How does increasing the production from miners increase the amount of minerals that players consume ?
Always remember that mining is a big fat yorkie eating working mans environment.
Not for Girls
As for Distribution |
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