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CCP: Login traps need to be outlawed

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IizzaBatch	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:12:00 - [1] Login traps are a major exploit of game mechanics and seriously harm the players they are used against. Why? Group A and group B are at war, group A encounters group B in a system and both groups are of equal numbers almost. Group B are sat a prime spot where they know group A can get them. Group A warp in to fight group B and as they are warping in, local doubles or more in size as group B shouts "THEY'RE HERE, LOGIN NOW" on teamspeak. Group a dies a very unfair death, group A would not have engaged group B in the first place if they knew group B had more than double their numbers, but there was no way for group A to know there was loads more of group B waiting to login. There is no game mechanic in place for them to find out. Thus login traps should be declared exploiting, i know ccp are probably going to claim they cant police it, but the fact is that they can, and if they outlawed it, there would be a lot less use of this exploitive tactic. Its the same with GTC, CCP claim they cant police it so they will let it be, just how many things are you willing to allow to go by because you "cant police it" before your game is ruined?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:15:00 - [2] So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ms rose	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:16:00 - [3] How exactly is a group dying to an ambush an exploit?
Lei'ella Neirenn	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:17:00 - [4] dude post with our main and next time get bigger gang and better scout .... yeah i am teh banned happy now ?
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:18:00 - [5] If you're in space when you log, there is a 2-3 minute timer before your ship reenters warp, and you can't do anything to control your ship. 2-3 minutes isn't going to kill someone, and there should be enough time to finish a battle. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:22:00 - [6] When x+ people log into a system within a y second window, scatter them across the system. This deals with login traps AND fleet battle crash/logbackings. x/y on a scaling system, numbers to be determined by CCP. This is not jumping in, just logging in.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:28:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/08/2006 17:28:36 Originally by: Ms rose How exactly is a group dying to an ambush an exploit? Because the ambush is metagaming and using OOG tactics. I agree with Maya--randomely logging people back in would avoid login traps, and moreso would also stop people who crash in fleetbattles from getting insta-owned. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
IizzaBatch	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Maya Rkell When x+ people log into a system within a y second window, scatter them across the system. This deals with login traps AND fleet battle crash/logbackings. x/y on a scaling system, numbers to be determined by CCP. This is not jumping in, just logging in. This seems like a good idea, or ccp could simply have it so when you log out in a system you will log back in at a random spot within 1m km of any of the planets. That way you cant log out at a spot and know you'll log back in there.
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:32:00 - [9] removing local would solve this problem.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:34:00 - [11] Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Sounds like a good (and simple) idea to me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. AND it dosn't solve the fleet crash issue! Gift, no it'd amplify it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/08/2006 17:42:17 Maya, how often do you log in and find yourself in the need to open fire within the first 5 minutes... it cant be that often. :) Of course if you crash when in a gang/fleet, I guess it would be frustrating to not be able to help them for 5 minutes after logging in. But its actually something i think we can live with. Crashing doesnt occur that often... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. No, its an absolutely great idea. 5 minutes is very little time to wait before going and killing people. How often do you "just happen to log on and need to gank a ton of people in your first 5 minutes"? Or do you do login traps too? --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:42:00 - [16] Edited by: Hertford on 12/08/2006 17:42:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Make this 5 minute timer apply only if you logged off in space, and I'd agree 100%, instead of only 99%.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Arkanor If you're in space when you log, there is a 2-3 minute timer before your ship reenters warp, and you can't do anything to control your ship. 2-3 minutes isn't going to kill someone, and there should be enough time to finish a battle. Yeah because everyone knows 2-3 mins is plenty of time to recognise local filling up with people logging on, and then take your dreads out of there 10min siege timer, and then get them out, np at all..... As it stands now it is actualy possible, and I know it is I've seen it done, to have a gang logged out in a system, with a scout watching a gate, the gate goes active and a freighter jumps in, the gang now has time to log on and warp to the gate the freighter is going to and gank it on arrival. This can be done in large systems where it takes a freighter AGES to warp across. CEO - Art of War
Aeina Caeraen Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:46:00 - [18] The easiest thing to do is to simply throw your ship within, say, an AU of a celestial, randomly, when you log back in whilst in space. Good luck recoordinating a login trap when your entire fleet has to wait for reentry warp to finish, realign, and then warp back to the gate. It could still be done in, say, a 200 AU system with Freighters involved, but then you wouldn't know if they had stopped halfway through the system, possibly anticipating such a trap. On the other hand, Freighter invincibility because of cloak + logoff on the far end of a gate should be dealt with too, and a related problem exists because a large enough group of ships can easily primary and gank a freighter with no chance for the defenders to do anything about it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Hertford Edited by: Hertford on 12/08/2006 17:42:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Make this 5 minute timer apply only if you logged off in space, and I'd agree 100%, instead of only 99%. You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim McGregor You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. In space, yes. My point was to allow people to avoid this 5 minute timer if they logoff in a station (where logoff means leaving the game under any circumstances).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:56:00 - [21] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/08/2006 17:56:26 Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Jim McGregor You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. In space, yes. My point was to allow people to avoid this 5 minute timer if they logoff in a station (where logoff means leaving the game under any circumstances). Maybe. But why cant you wait 5 minutes before agressing someone after logging in? The timer wouldnt have to be enabled for agressing npc pirates, only players, if thats your concern. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 18:00:21 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. No, its an absolutely great idea. 5 minutes is very little time to wait before going and killing people. How often do you "just happen to log on and need to gank a ton of people in your first 5 minutes"? Or do you do login traps too? Right, noted, you're in favour of boring downtime and you can BET I'm going to bring it up. I suggested something else which works better, in other situations as well AND dosn't annoy legitimate players logging in. 5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes. It's a LONG time before being able to play the game properly. Moreover, it directly and deliverately punishes people for network issues. eLLioTT wave, yea, about 6 months after the event because the GM's would be getting hundreds of additional petitions about it a day. And unless a ban can be done within 24 hours, it's not applied per CCP policy. So...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:59:00 - [24] Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all Then ccp would have to have staff available to investigate every possible situation that might be a logon exploit. Its just silly tbh. The solution should be handled by the game itself, not GM's. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Maya Rkell Right, noted, you're in favour of boring downtime and you can BET I'm going to bring it up. I suggested something else which works better, in other situations as well AND dosn't annoy legitimate players logging in. 5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes. It's a LONG time before being able to play the game properly. Moreover, it directly and deliverately punishes people for network issues. You can do everything except target other players for 5 minutes after logging in. It seems like a very small price to pay...you can still target npc's or asteroids. Your solution would just spread the players that logs in out a little. A simple gang warp would bring them to whatever gate they wish to camp within seconds. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all Then ccp would have to have staff available to investigate every possible situation that might be a logon exploit. Its just silly tbh. The solution should be handled by the game itself, not GM's. nooooooooooooo for the game itself to handle it we require patches, development, testing ect ect ect. For it to be announced on news as a new petitionable exploit, and for a GM to look at a logfile when a petition comes through would take how long? a minute? if confirmed logon exploit then either ban them or (better yet) clear out ALL their hangers :D (including corp hanger) for.... a month or two - thatd sort em out, just leave them with noob ships and 100 isk.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:04:00 - [27] 1 minute? Right, you want GM's banning people within that span ugh. And taking away peoples stuff like that is illegal in some countries, becuase it;s not delivering the service offered. Bans are not, however, problematical. No, don't ask me for a long explination of why... You can technically class 1 guy logging in as a logon trap, of course. (and 1 guy logging in and 1 fighting should make them strip your corphangers... er....)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:04:00 - [28] Elliott... step away from the beer. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:11:00 - [29] Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/08/2006 18:13:28 cough
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Jim McGregor Anyway, I think the 5 minute timer is a good idea. On another note... /me just opened a bottle of Heineken! cheers /me tips stubby cheers
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:16:00 - [31] Thanks to Elliott for removing her post and not turning the thread into a flamefest. :) And no, I never miss anything going on here in these forums... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:20:00 - [32] Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/08/2006 18:20:01 Originally by: Jim McGregor Thanks to Elliott for removing her post and not turning the thread into a flamefest. :) And no, I never miss anything going on here in these forums... fine fine okay but its true you know... Miss T :( every single post someones always done something to offend it
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Maya Rkell And taking away peoples stuff like that is illegal in some countries, becuase it;s not delivering the service offered. People play the game according, and within, the rules set out by CCP. The rules are part of the service. You obviously do not have a clue. You obviously have never sat down with an lawyer friend and discussed this over a few drinks either.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:35:00 - [34] Lawyers have friends? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:45:00 - [35] His speciality is environmental law, not criminal :P But like me, he's a gamer and has done some research for me because I'm cute.
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Maya Rkell You obviously have never sat down with an lawyer friend and discussed this over a few drinks either. You did explain to your lawyer friend that all in-game items are the property of CCP and no-one else?
Harris	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Maya Rkell Right, noted, you're in favour of boring downtime and you can BET I'm going to bring it up. I suggested something else which works better, in other situations as well AND dosn't annoy legitimate players logging in. 5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes. It's a LONG time before being able to play the game properly. Moreover, it directly and deliverately punishes people for network issues. You can do everything except target other players for 5 minutes after logging in. It seems like a very small price to pay...you can still target npc's or asteroids. Your solution would just spread the players that logs in out a little. A simple gang warp would bring them to whatever gate they wish to camp within seconds. I'm sure there would be issues to balance out but I think a non-aggresion window wouldn't be too much of a bug bear... perhaps make it 2-3 minutes to appease maya? (no offense mate, it's a valid point you're making) The problem with the idea that I see is that if everyone warped in to the spot for a login trap, who's gonna know who is under this 5minute aggresion ban? Surely, unless there is some big pointy arrow or perhaps a pink (for ghey tactician) marker on their name, you're going to agress whoever gets called. If that person was under the aggression timer, then he just got allowed to fight and his tactic worked. To that end, I think perhaps a 2-3 minute timer, random warp in point when you log in in space (unless it's a pos or something that you were at when you logged out) andddd a marker on the overview/around your ship that says you're under an aggression ban.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Aeina Caeraen The easiest thing to do is to simply throw your ship within, say, an AU of a celestial, randomly, when you log back in whilst in space. Good luck recoordinating a login trap when your entire fleet has to wait for reentry warp to finish, realign, and then warp back to the gate. It could still be done in, say, a 200 AU system with Freighters involved, but then you wouldn't know if they had stopped halfway through the system, possibly anticipating such a trap. On the other hand, Freighter invincibility because of cloak + logoff on the far end of a gate should be dealt with too, and a related problem exists because a large enough group of ships can easily primary and gank a freighter with no chance for the defenders to do anything about it. How on Gods green Earth does a freighter fit a cloak and become invincible? CEO - Art of War
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Harris To that end, I think perhaps a 2-3 minute timer, random warp in point when you log in in space (unless it's a pos or something that you were at when you logged out) andddd a marker on the overview/around your ship that says you're under an aggression ban. Its too complicated... I think a simple solution that doesnt require lots of changes would be the best. How about this then... when you log, your ship automaticly warps to some spot 1 million km from where you were (as it works today). When you log back in, you are unable to warp anywhere for 2 minutes. I realize it would be annoying, but honestly, its not that often that your game crashes, is it? If you log at a station, the timer could be 2 minutes before you could undock. These changes would basicly prevent logon exploits. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:14:00 - [40] Dont realy have a solution to the problem, but I honstly feel 2mins would be to short, agreed it would solve fleet vs fleet style log on traps and ganks etc, but it wouldnt help dread log on traps any. Have reason to believe your POS will be engaged, log off a large fleet in system and wait, leave a cov close to POS watching it, the second dreads enter siege mode log fleet on, wait 2mins while dreads are still locked down for 10mins, by the time you can warp they still have 8mins left of siege before they can escape, more than enough time to regroup and then warp on top of them and gank them. To be honost the first step would be CCP making log on traps a known exploit rather than saying they know they exist and consider them lame themselves but living with it. CEO - Art of War
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Gift removing local would solve this problem. Not really, covert scouts at the gates two systems in each direction from the login ambush site and you get the same effect. The ambush doesn't show on map and you get enough warning that you can get the ambush fleet into position.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:44:00 - [42] Maybe, but..it also needs to apply to station logins (I honestly don't see the different there..). Thing is, you're asking for a data dsplay on an enemy, and there's SO much basic UI work we need first, like knowing status of all EW and tackling modules on and from us easily, etc. Nebuli, again, hundreds of petitions a day and a lot of people banned for someone they didn't know logging in and shooting the same guy. If POSwars are an issue, FIX POSWARS!
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Jim McGregor Anyway, I think the 5 minute timer is a good idea. On another note... /me just opened a bottle of Heineken! cheers 1 empty bottle of Kumala Zenith <--- not ghey however, 5 minute timer has quite alot of exploit implications :)
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:31:00 - [44] Don't think we can expect the dev to make logon traps illegal anytime soon, as gms at least have stated they can't police it as such, because of the problems with the intent behind the action. However, it would be nice if a gm could clarify whether they are working on a solution for what many perceive as a big, in some cases gamebreaking, problem. Just stating that using the login/logout mechanisms to hide a fleet isn't what the game is supposed to be like would be a big relief for a lot of people. -----
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:54:00 - [45] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 12/08/2006 22:59:25 Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Maya Rkell You obviously have never sat down with an lawyer friend and discussed this over a few drinks either. You did explain to your lawyer friend that all in-game items are the property of CCP and no-one else? Did someone explain to you that its the word of a judge that counts (or alternatively, a lot of firepower), and nothing else? As for the topic: solutions that involve GM judgement - no thanks. We dont want this game to be turned (even more) into petitions online, do we? You cannot avoid metagaming (Teamspeak is an exploit roughly as bad as log-on traps, yet i have seen no whines about it), so you should design a game that takes it into account. There is already a solution to log-on traps (you log in being in warp). Wether its enough, i cannot really tell. From my experience it is, though. Reading this thread, the only "real" issue seems to be dreads in siege mode. Everything else is just too deeply entwined with the way that online /offline is handled. The people who play eve live in another world - making ships appear out of thin air and then disapear again is EvEs solution to this problem. Dont forget that the mechanics you are talking about affect a lot more people, not just the alliance / fleetbattle faction.
Celdar Minto	Posted - 2006.08.12 23:08:00 - [46] No, stop drinking, dudes! LoL
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 23:23:00 - [47] Argenton Sayvers, yes, and this has never been discussed in open court in America or Europe.
Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 00:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Yay dark has adopted my idea ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Tentacles Out	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:04:00 - [49] Edited by: Tentacles Out on 13/08/2006 01:10:41 Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Maya Rkell You obviously have never sat down with an lawyer friend and discussed this over a few drinks either. You did explain to your lawyer friend that all in-game items are the property of CCP and no-one else? I wonder why we dont see a gaming company in the states push the property rights issue too hard? http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32441.html To the topic: Havent been around long enough to experience a login trap. Not sure where I stand on this issue. I can see where maybe a couple guys (say 10) are playing the game and when they notice an attack coming they contact friends on TS or Vent to come quick. That would seem legit. If they were secondary accounts or alts that would be weak. Timer doesnt sound like a bad idea though.
Bramson Astromecha Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:11:00 - [50] On the test server there is a new query system. Im not sure if the system will be going live to TQ but currently it really does prevent log in traps. With 11 people waiting on query it takes about 6-10 minutes to login to the server. I think its pretty annoying as heck but I can understand the other views on it with people who just keep abusing the system. So I guess if we see this go into the live version we wont be seeing anymore posts of login traps. -Bramson Application Programming Agent
DemonStar Supernova	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:14:00 - [51] Ugh lemme get this straight. The OP wants pvp to be more predictable. The OP does not want to think about the consequences of attacking another ship. The OP does not want to, god forbid, lose his ship to a larger force during a PVP fight. Lets go ahead and remove covert ops ships, take away a carriers ability to asign fighters, and any other tactic that a player might use to lure you into a trap. How about players that bait you, then have several ships from next system jump in? Just because you cant see them in local doesent mean theyre not ready to pounce on you. If you cant deal with the fact that you, at some point, may lose a ship to a group of people with more foresight than you, then go orbit a station in empire. The rest of us are busy cooking up ways to remove your ship from your posesion and slap whatever is left in our cargo hold, deal with it.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. I like that one, but Maya's suggestion is also pretty good (in case ppl crash in large numbers so they don't get fleet FRACKED.) /SIGNED Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.13 01:30:00 - [53] Tentacles Out, because it'd be expensive...and what if they LOST? That case you link was decided because it was a external hack, incidentally. Bramson, no, just "OMG I crashed in Jita and now I've been logging in for 3 hours!" threads. Which would be ENTIRELY justified. Heck, "OMG I'm logging into some system and it's taking 5 minutes" is perfectly when you just come to login for the day. If I wanted to wait in line for a login, I'd be playing WoW :/
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.13 04:43:00 - [54] Originally by: DemonStar Supernova Ugh lemme get this straight. The OP wants pvp to be more predictable. The OP does not want to think about the consequences of attacking another ship. The OP does not want to, god forbid, lose his ship to a larger force during a PVP fight. Lets go ahead and remove covert ops ships, take away a carriers ability to asign fighters, and any other tactic that a player might use to lure you into a trap. How about players that bait you, then have several ships from next system jump in? Just because you cant see them in local doesent mean theyre not ready to pounce on you. If you cant deal with the fact that you, at some point, may lose a ship to a group of people with more foresight than you, then go orbit a station in empire. The rest of us are busy cooking up ways to remove your ship from your posesion and slap whatever is left in our cargo hold, deal with it. The difference is jumping in from the next system is done WITHIN THE GAME. Logon traps are OUT OF GAME exploits. If you can set up an ambush through superior scouting and tactics, good for you. You deserve the kill. But note the "superior tactics" part, it's difficult to pull off an ambush like that quickly enough. If you get it right, your kill is the result of skillful gameplay. On the other hand, logon traps bypass that difficulty completely. You're not winning because you fooled your target into walking into a trap, you're winning because of out-of-game exploits that can't be countered. What you're doing is the equivalent of buying a shotgun and some plane tickets and killing a rival player... and then coming to the forums to brag about your superior pvp skills. ================================ As for the legal issues, there is no way that lawsuit would succeed. The terms of service you have to agree to explicitly state that all items are the property of CCP. You have no legal claim to ownership. And any real-life value they might have is only through illegal sales, so good luck arguing that one in court.
Oisin Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.08.13 05:11:00 - [55] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Aeina Caeraen On the other hand, Freighter invincibility because of cloak + logoff on the far end of a gate should be dealt with too, and a related problem exists because a large enough group of ships can easily primary and gank a freighter with no chance for the defenders to do anything about it. How on Gods green Earth does a freighter fit a cloak and become invincible? Where did you see anything about fitting a cloak? A freighter pilot can click the Jump button on a stargate, which causes the freighter to cloak in preparation for jumping, then log off. The freighter does not reappear in the destination system, it simply disappears immediately until the pilot logs back on. This happened us a few months ago where we set up to catch a freighter gang with escort, by warping ahead of them, having some of our gang aggress them to force them to jump through to our main gang on the other side. The freighters - three of them - logged off using this trick. We petitioned but apparently it isn't an exploit. If we had destroyed those three freighters, a major alliance war could have ended very differently. Wreckless Abandon is recruiting
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2006.08.13 05:16:00 - [56] Merin, The TOS may not be legal. It would be like signing a loan agreement in Japan stipulating 30% annual interest, which is illegal, and thus would not be an enforceable contract. The difference here is that the TOS or EULA has never been tested, whereas in Japan, the interest rate is clearly defind by law. Until a EULA is tested, we just don't know.
Tentacles Out	Posted - 2006.08.13 07:10:00 - [57] Maya, expense isnt the issue... Losing is and I know the relevant issue that decided the case. It still shows that courts do put some value on virtual game property. Value that we as gamers have been aware of since the beginning. nuff said
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks Unlimited	Posted - 2006.08.13 08:19:00 - [58] I think CCP should just announce that if they catch people doing an OBVIOUS login trap that leaves zero question in their mind, they will deleting characters. Then they should send their GMs to spy on the alliances that are fighting until they catch people, post a video of it, and then delete every single character on every single account involved. People that login trap generally have WAY too much to lose to even accept a .0001% chance of that kind of penelty.
DemonStar Supernova	Posted - 2006.08.13 08:27:00 - [59] What you're doing is the equivalent of buying a shotgun and some plane tickets and killing a rival player... and then coming to the forums to brag about your superior pvp skills. OOOO! /signed. when can we start? this is no more an out of game exploit than teamspeak is. "Oh no, a third party program that allows players to instantly communicate and better organize their fleet forces, and its NOT IN EVE! EXPLOIT!" If youre tackled, what diference does it make if the reinforcements that kill you show up from the next system or login on top of you? None, because either way you walked into a trap, cant run away, and youre going to pay for it. Plus, go get your alts out if you have them people, fly them to a safe system, then fly your main there and log it in, and back out. Note how your main's ship is there about 10 or so seconds before hes even completely logged in. Thats 10 seconds that hes completely visible, unable to target or attack. If you cant run away inside that 10 second window youre either A. not paying attention in the first place, wich means wether those ships jumped into local and right on top of you, you would still be suprised. or B. Unable to run anyway because youre tackeled and pinned down, wich once again it doesent matter if the ships come in from the next system over, or right on top of you. In either one of these situations you had no chance anyway. Now, one key thing has to happen for this so called "exploit" to work. Tell me directly and honestly that this cant be avoided, and Ill back off and shut up about it. First of all, the potentail target must, in one way or another, warp directly to the asailants. Remember, logged ships cant move, so the trap is in one place and one place only. Now, if the trap is set at a gate with a warp bubble, and you get caught by it thats your own fault for not scanning or using a scout. Remember, if you had used a scout he would have told you about the bubble, and it could be avoided. (and id also like to mention, if youre flying without a scout, once again youd have no idea if ships were ready to jump in from the next system). So, if you get caught in a warp bubble, youre going to get messed up for it. Those are the rules, and thats why gate campers use them. Its going to take 10 seconds for ships to log in, and also 10 for them to jump in. No diference either way. OR you could go the OP's route. you see a small group of ships, and you decide to go out of your way to attack them. Uh oh, turns out your warp jammed and cant run away, and all sorts of new ships are showing up. Now tell me, what diference does it make if those ships warp in from a gate, or spawn on top of you? You werent gonna be able to warp out either way. and, being incredibly generous with this estimate, it would take someone 5-10 seconds more, max, to jump in from a gate. The truth is this "exploit" doesent directly benefit its users as much as everyone here seems to be insinuating. It takes advantage of people who are not paying attention to their surroundings, and who do not know how to say "time to go" when things turn on them.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.13 08:49:00 - [60] Originally by: Nebuli Dont realy have a solution to the problem, but I honstly feel 2mins would be to short, agreed it would solve fleet vs fleet style log on traps and ganks etc, but it wouldnt help dread log on traps any. Have reason to believe your POS will be engaged, log off a large fleet in system and wait, leave a cov close to POS watching it, the second dreads enter siege mode log fleet on, wait 2mins while dreads are still locked down for 10mins, by the time you can warp they still have 8mins left of siege before they can escape, more than enough time to regroup and then warp on top of them and gank them. To be honost the first step would be CCP making log on traps a known exploit rather than saying they know they exist and consider them lame themselves but living with it. Solution to that would be you can't use jump drives for 10mins when logged in or go into seige mode perhaps? WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Firane Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Dark Shikari Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. I like the idea, just exclude NPCs from things you can't target. -----------
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.08.13 09:41:00 - [62] What about often suggested "Number of pilots currently logged off" on the star map?
Android Mindslave Gallente Mindworks Unlimited	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:01:00 - [63] Reasons why login traps are exploits: It evades the game mechanics of seeing who is in local. It evades the game mechanics of using a covert ops ship to scout. It evades the game mechanics of checking the map for pilots in space. It evades the game mechanics of scanners detecting your fleet composition. It evades the game mechanics of being scan probed. People who use login traps are NOT outplaying ANYONE. They are not even playing the game, they are hiding in their login screen. IMO using a login trap is on par with finding the IPs of people in an alliance and hitting their computers with denial of service attacks to cut their internet access. It is a metagame abuse.
Janra Rax Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.13 11:38:00 - [64] Why don't we have ships stay in eve 30min after log off, regardless to whether your agressed or not. That way you could scan to see if anyone was in system. And most people won't wait 30min logged off to set up a trap, it's also stop people logging off in enemy space when cornered.
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:37:00 - [65] Originally by: Nebuli How on Gods green Earth does a freighter fit a cloak and become invincible? He didn't say it did. Any further information would be me discussing what I am convinced is an exploit.
IizzaBatch	Posted - 2006.08.13 12:38:00 - [66] Edited by: IizzaBatch on 13/08/2006 12:45:57 I think everyone who lives in the south and has tried a 10/10 with RA or RAT at it knows how severe the login traps pulled at complexes entrances can be, its simple, if you want to do that complex, your gonna have to go through the gate, RA/RAT will always have at least 1 guy watching. As soon as you goto that complex entrance, local jumps up from 7 to 25 as you see RA/RAT logg in gallore. Its lame as hell, but hey, they need to protect their assets by any means possible, exploit or not, if they dont, the russian children will starve. CCP could easily fix this, like making it random where you will log back in, so you cant log at a certain place in space and know that you'll log back in that same place. RAT and RA know full well that if they camp 20 odd guys on top of the gate that your force of a few people or several people wont warp in to the obvious slaughter, so they hide most of their force by logging of there, they bait you with a smaller force knowing that you believe you have a chance to win you migth actually warp in, but no, as soon as you warp in, they will all scream "LOGIN NOW" on teamspeak, then their force double or triples in numbers and suddenly you have no chance of winning. RA and RAT use these tactics all the time, so what are players supposed to do when fighting RA and RAT at gates? Simply not fight? When they are using login traps all the time, the only choice you have is to not fight.
Arron S Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.13 13:26:00 - [67] signed
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.14 03:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Maya Rkell Maybe, but..it also needs to apply to station logins (I honestly don't see the different there..). Thing is, you're asking for a data dsplay on an enemy, and there's SO much basic UI work we need first, like knowing status of all EW and tackling modules on and from us easily, etc. Nebuli, again, hundreds of petitions a day and a lot of people banned for someone they didn't know logging in and shooting the same guy. If POSwars are an issue, FIX POSWARS! There is no "Nebuli again" ,OK..... DEVs say log on traps are an exploit. They recieve a petition corp/alliance XXX just used one in XXX system, they look at logs and blatently see 50 ships log off, then log on again at the same time, obvious log on trap right? GM then BANs all accounts involved in the log on exploit for a month. News spreads like wildfire. No one does it anymore. Simple, also I think "hundreds of petitions a day" is a little extreme, their are only a handfull of corps/alliances who use this on a regular basis, most consider it lame and wouldnt consider using it, once the word is out, and once the few abusing this are punished it will become a non issue. CEO - Art of War
Scoundrelus The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.14 03:37:00 - [69] I didn't read the thread, just the OP and I completely agree that Login Traps need to be considered an exploit. Using a third party communication program you are giving yourself an advantage over other players. Furthermore I have been victim to a login trap once and the lag created from it actually kicked me off the client and I ended up getting popped without even being online. If this isn't considered an exploit then I got no idea what is. ===============================================
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.08.14 04:17:00 - [70] lets allow log in tactics as they have gone ok so far (might force PVPers to sit still instead of raoming gank squads ) ok playing devils advocate here and my opinion really sits on the fence
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 04:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/08/2006 04:38:07 Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/08/2006 04:36:54 Originally by: DemonStar Supernova this is no more an out of game exploit than teamspeak is. "Oh no, a third party program that allows players to instantly communicate and better organize their fleet forces, and its NOT IN EVE! EXPLOIT!" But it doesn't do anything EVE can't do. Teamspeak just gives you a more convenient chat system. Logon traps allow you to completely evade the intended game mechanics. Is the difference really that hard to understand? Slow typing in chat isn't an intended game mechanic. EVE doesn't have voice chat because the devs haven't made coding/hosting it a high priority yet, NOT because they want you to have to use the in-game chat system. Not only that, but the talk of adding official voice chat proves that teamspeak is not an exploit. Having to warp-in if you want to hide ships IS an intended game mechanic, and a major balancing factor in ambushes. Quote: If youre tackled, what diference does it make if the reinforcements that kill you show up from the next system or login on top of you? None, because either way you walked into a trap, cant run away, and youre going to pay for it. Who says you'll be tackled permanently? Who says you can't kill/jam/out-run the tackler in the time it takes for reinforcements to arrive from another system? If you cant run away inside that 10 second window youre either A. not paying attention in the first place, wich means wether those ships jumped into local and right on top of you, you would still be suprised. or B. Unable to run anyway because youre tackeled and pinned down, wich once again it doesent matter if the ships come in from the next system over, or right on top of you. Or C: in a ship that can't align for warp in 10 seconds. Or D: in the process of killing the tackler, but unable to finish the job in 10 seconds (but would be before legitimate reinforcements could arrive). Quote: OR you could go the OP's route. you see a small group of ships, and you decide to go out of your way to attack them. Uh oh, turns out your warp jammed and cant run away, and all sorts of new ships are showing up. Now tell me, what diference does it make if those ships warp in from a gate, or spawn on top of you? Because a logon trap gets them there faster. Not only that, but it gets them there in a way that can not be detected through ingame methods. Ships waiting to warp in can be detected if you scout carefully enough. Logged-off ships CAN'T. Anyway, if logon traps aren't any more effective than keeping reinforcements in the adjacent system, why does anyone use them? Surely if they provide no benefit, it wouldn't be worth the cost of keeping all your ships tied down to one location, would it?
Spei Prodetor	Posted - 2006.08.14 07:09:00 - [72] Edited by: Spei Prodetor on 14/08/2006 07:10:04 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/08/2006 04:38:07 Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/08/2006 04:36:54 Originally by: DemonStar Supernova this is no more an out of game exploit than teamspeak is. "Oh no, a third party program that allows players to instantly communicate and better organize their fleet forces, and its NOT IN EVE! EXPLOIT!" But it doesn't do anything EVE can't do. Teamspeak just gives you a more convenient chat system. Logon traps allow you to completely evade the intended game mechanics. Is the difference really that hard to understand? Slow typing in chat isn't an intended game mechanic. EVE doesn't have voice chat because the devs haven't made coding/hosting it a high priority yet, NOT because they want you to have to use the in-game chat system. Not only that, but the talk of adding official voice chat proves that teamspeak is not an exploit. Having to warp-in if you want to hide ships IS an intended game mechanic, and a major balancing factor in ambushes. Quote: If youre tackled, what diference does it make if the reinforcements that kill you show up from the next system or login on top of you? None, because either way you walked into a trap, cant run away, and youre going to pay for it. Who says you'll be tackled permanently? Who says you can't kill/jam/out-run the tackler in the time it takes for reinforcements to arrive from another system? If you cant run away inside that 10 second window youre either A. not paying attention in the first place, wich means wether those ships jumped into local and right on top of you, you would still be suprised. or B. Unable to run anyway because youre tackeled and pinned down, wich once again it doesent matter if the ships come in from the next system over, or right on top of you. Or C: in a ship that can't align for warp in 10 seconds. Or D: in the process of killing the tackler, but unable to finish the job in 10 seconds (but would be before legitimate reinforcements could arrive). Quote: OR you could go the OP's route. you see a small group of ships, and you decide to go out of your way to attack them. Uh oh, turns out your warp jammed and cant run away, and all sorts of new ships are showing up. Now tell me, what diference does it make if those ships warp in from a gate, or spawn on top of you? Because a logon trap gets them there faster. Not only that, but it gets them there in a way that can not be detected through ingame methods. Ships waiting to warp in can be detected if you scout carefully enough. Logged-off ships CAN'T. Anyway, if logon traps aren't any more effective than keeping reinforcements in the adjacent system, why does anyone use them? Surely if they provide no benefit, it wouldn't be worth the cost of keeping all your ships tied down to one location, would it? and with that ill say fracking signed, log-in traps are LAME hands down as there is no way what so ever to know about them. Where as if they are 1 jump out or even 2 jumps out using insta's they are detectable if you look close enough. I've layed down REAL ambushes using only ingame mechanics and they were very effective and used REAL PVP skills. If the point of logging in onto an intended nme is to prove your "uberness" all it proves is the need to ahve cheat codes and an i-win button cus i'll tell ya right now that is the 100% equivelant(sp) So as for the dev's looking into it and seeing what they can do about login traps its got my vote.
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.14 08:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Nebuli DEVs say log on traps are an exploit. They recieve a petition corp/alliance XXX just used one in XXX system, they look at logs and blatently see 50 ships log off, then log on again at the same time, obvious log on trap right? GM then BANs all accounts involved in the log on exploit for a month. News spreads like wildfire. No one does it anymore. Simple, also I think "hundreds of petitions a day" is a little extreme, their are only a handfull of corps/alliances who use this on a regular basis, most consider it lame and wouldnt consider using it, once the word is out, and once the few abusing this are punished it will become a non issue. /signed in blood isnt this what ive already said though? :p
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2006.08.14 08:55:00 - [74] I'm pretty sure Oveur already said that it's an exploit, but they can't be bothered to enforce it
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.08.15 08:24:00 - [75] What Oveur actually said.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.15 15:19:00 - [76] Just a quick question for all those exploit-criers. How many people do need to log in in what timeframe to make it a log-on trap? 50 people over 1minute? 10 people over 2 minutes? Just one person logging off his industrial character and logging in his combat character after he spots a victim with his cov-ops alt?
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2006.08.15 15:48:00 - [77] When you log off your ship stay in space at the exact location you left it, et voila you solved both the logging off problem and the logging in problem in a realistic way !
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.15 15:57:00 - [78] Ah, but there actually is a reasonably easy answert hat allows for the problem of disconnects and so on. If you log off or disconnect, you do just what you do now, warp off and dissapear. However, if you log off and disconnect but only try to log back in more then say 5 minutes after the disconnect or logout, you get a two minute recalibration timer, as in no locking in that two minutes. That means that logontraps can only be sprung on targets that pass within five minutes. That should solve most of the issue really, but not all of it. It also allows for accidental diconnects, with the exception of people that log back on more then 5 minutes later and end up in a vulnerable position, which should by all means be extremely rare and worthy of immediate extinction by hand of darwinism anyway. Old blog

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