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CCP: Login traps need to be outlawed

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IizzaBatch	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:12:00 - [1] Login traps are a major exploit of game mechanics and seriously harm the players they are used against. Why? Group A and group B are at war, group A encounters group B in a system and both groups are of equal numbers almost. Group B are sat a prime spot where they know group A can get them. Group A warp in to fight group B and as they are warping in, local doubles or more in size as group B shouts "THEY'RE HERE, LOGIN NOW" on teamspeak. Group a dies a very unfair death, group A would not have engaged group B in the first place if they knew group B had more than double their numbers, but there was no way for group A to know there was loads more of group B waiting to login. There is no game mechanic in place for them to find out. Thus login traps should be declared exploiting, i know ccp are probably going to claim they cant police it, but the fact is that they can, and if they outlawed it, there would be a lot less use of this exploitive tactic. Its the same with GTC, CCP claim they cant police it so they will let it be, just how many things are you willing to allow to go by because you "cant police it" before your game is ruined?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:15:00 - [2] So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ms rose	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:16:00 - [3] How exactly is a group dying to an ambush an exploit?
Lei'ella Neirenn	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:17:00 - [4] dude post with our main and next time get bigger gang and better scout .... yeah i am teh banned happy now ?
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:18:00 - [5] If you're in space when you log, there is a 2-3 minute timer before your ship reenters warp, and you can't do anything to control your ship. 2-3 minutes isn't going to kill someone, and there should be enough time to finish a battle. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:22:00 - [6] When x+ people log into a system within a y second window, scatter them across the system. This deals with login traps AND fleet battle crash/logbackings. x/y on a scaling system, numbers to be determined by CCP. This is not jumping in, just logging in.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:28:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/08/2006 17:28:36 Originally by: Ms rose How exactly is a group dying to an ambush an exploit? Because the ambush is metagaming and using OOG tactics. I agree with Maya--randomely logging people back in would avoid login traps, and moreso would also stop people who crash in fleetbattles from getting insta-owned. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
IizzaBatch	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Maya Rkell When x+ people log into a system within a y second window, scatter them across the system. This deals with login traps AND fleet battle crash/logbackings. x/y on a scaling system, numbers to be determined by CCP. This is not jumping in, just logging in. This seems like a good idea, or ccp could simply have it so when you log out in a system you will log back in at a random spot within 1m km of any of the planets. That way you cant log out at a spot and know you'll log back in there.
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:32:00 - [9] removing local would solve this problem.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:34:00 - [11] Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Sounds like a good (and simple) idea to me. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. AND it dosn't solve the fleet crash issue! Gift, no it'd amplify it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/08/2006 17:42:17 Maya, how often do you log in and find yourself in the need to open fire within the first 5 minutes... it cant be that often. :) Of course if you crash when in a gang/fleet, I guess it would be frustrating to not be able to help them for 5 minutes after logging in. But its actually something i think we can live with. Crashing doesnt occur that often... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. No, its an absolutely great idea. 5 minutes is very little time to wait before going and killing people. How often do you "just happen to log on and need to gank a ton of people in your first 5 minutes"? Or do you do login traps too? --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:42:00 - [16] Edited by: Hertford on 12/08/2006 17:42:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Make this 5 minute timer apply only if you logged off in space, and I'd agree 100%, instead of only 99%.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Arkanor If you're in space when you log, there is a 2-3 minute timer before your ship reenters warp, and you can't do anything to control your ship. 2-3 minutes isn't going to kill someone, and there should be enough time to finish a battle. Yeah because everyone knows 2-3 mins is plenty of time to recognise local filling up with people logging on, and then take your dreads out of there 10min siege timer, and then get them out, np at all..... As it stands now it is actualy possible, and I know it is I've seen it done, to have a gang logged out in a system, with a scout watching a gate, the gate goes active and a freighter jumps in, the gang now has time to log on and warp to the gate the freighter is going to and gank it on arrival. This can be done in large systems where it takes a freighter AGES to warp across. CEO - Art of War
Aeina Caeraen Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:46:00 - [18] The easiest thing to do is to simply throw your ship within, say, an AU of a celestial, randomly, when you log back in whilst in space. Good luck recoordinating a login trap when your entire fleet has to wait for reentry warp to finish, realign, and then warp back to the gate. It could still be done in, say, a 200 AU system with Freighters involved, but then you wouldn't know if they had stopped halfway through the system, possibly anticipating such a trap. On the other hand, Freighter invincibility because of cloak + logoff on the far end of a gate should be dealt with too, and a related problem exists because a large enough group of ships can easily primary and gank a freighter with no chance for the defenders to do anything about it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Hertford Edited by: Hertford on 12/08/2006 17:42:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. Make this 5 minute timer apply only if you logged off in space, and I'd agree 100%, instead of only 99%. You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim McGregor You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. In space, yes. My point was to allow people to avoid this 5 minute timer if they logoff in a station (where logoff means leaving the game under any circumstances).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:56:00 - [21] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/08/2006 17:56:26 Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Jim McGregor You mean if people click the "log off" button? Well, then it can be easily avoided by using task manager to just kill the process to simulate a crash. I think any disconnect from the server should have this 5 minute timer mentioned before. In space, yes. My point was to allow people to avoid this 5 minute timer if they logoff in a station (where logoff means leaving the game under any circumstances). Maybe. But why cant you wait 5 minutes before agressing someone after logging in? The timer wouldnt have to be enabled for agressing npc pirates, only players, if thats your concern. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 18:00:21 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 17:38:17 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jim McGregor Why not just make it impossible to lock someone for 60 seconds after logging in? Better solution: Make it impossible to agress someone for 5 minutes. This means if someone attacks you, you can attack back, but you can't fire unless someone fires on you. So basically I now have a 5 minute downtime after logging on. Great... No, boring as heck. No, its an absolutely great idea. 5 minutes is very little time to wait before going and killing people. How often do you "just happen to log on and need to gank a ton of people in your first 5 minutes"? Or do you do login traps too? Right, noted, you're in favour of boring downtime and you can BET I'm going to bring it up. I suggested something else which works better, in other situations as well AND dosn't annoy legitimate players logging in. 5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes. It's a LONG time before being able to play the game properly. Moreover, it directly and deliverately punishes people for network issues. eLLioTT wave, yea, about 6 months after the event because the GM's would be getting hundreds of additional petitions about it a day. And unless a ban can be done within 24 hours, it's not applied per CCP policy. So...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 17:59:00 - [24] Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all Then ccp would have to have staff available to investigate every possible situation that might be a logon exploit. Its just silly tbh. The solution should be handled by the game itself, not GM's. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Maya Rkell Right, noted, you're in favour of boring downtime and you can BET I'm going to bring it up. I suggested something else which works better, in other situations as well AND dosn't annoy legitimate players logging in. 5 minutes is 5 minutes is 5 minutes. It's a LONG time before being able to play the game properly. Moreover, it directly and deliverately punishes people for network issues. You can do everything except target other players for 5 minutes after logging in. It seems like a very small price to pay...you can still target npc's or asteroids. Your solution would just spread the players that logs in out a little. A simple gang warp would bring them to whatever gate they wish to camp within seconds. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Jim McGregor So how would you judge the situation where someone crashes to desktop and then logins to fight again? You would have tons of petitions about people accusing eachother for login traps. And they seem to have enough to do in that department...:) Very easy for CCP to see that, oh X person from XZ corp logged out, oh now theyre back... compared to, wow 30 members of XZ corp just all logged out.... hmmm now ALL of those people just logged back in within 10 seconds of each other... im sure its just a random CTD they all happened to experience at the exact same time.... moving along now... 1. it IS easy for them to police 2. IF they started policing it and banning people for a week? 2 weeks? month? for doing it then it wouldnt happen anymore once everyone heard about RAT being banned for a month (oops did i say that?) 3. that is all Then ccp would have to have staff available to investigate every possible situation that might be a logon exploit. Its just silly tbh. The solution should be handled by the game itself, not GM's. nooooooooooooo for the game itself to handle it we require patches, development, testing ect ect ect. For it to be announced on news as a new petitionable exploit, and for a GM to look at a logfile when a petition comes through would take how long? a minute? if confirmed logon exploit then either ban them or (better yet) clear out ALL their hangers :D (including corp hanger) for.... a month or two - thatd sort em out, just leave them with noob ships and 100 isk.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:04:00 - [27] 1 minute? Right, you want GM's banning people within that span ugh. And taking away peoples stuff like that is illegal in some countries, becuase it;s not delivering the service offered. Bans are not, however, problematical. No, don't ask me for a long explination of why... You can technically class 1 guy logging in as a logon trap, of course. (and 1 guy logging in and 1 fighting should make them strip your corphangers... er....)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:04:00 - [28] Elliott... step away from the beer. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:11:00 - [29] Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 12/08/2006 18:13:28 cough
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Jim McGregor Anyway, I think the 5 minute timer is a good idea. On another note... /me just opened a bottle of Heineken! cheers /me tips stubby cheers

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